Bmibaby

[ZeBedie]

Is Stelios Greek then?

[Charley B]

He may be Greek but his Fastjet company could be registered in the uk????
Lots of UK reg co's have foreign owners:)

[Montezuma]

I reiterate, £5K per jet per day is a lot of turn round.

[longarm]

He's not Greek. I think he holds dual British/Cypriot nationality. But definitely not Greek. Hence 'Sir' Stelios.

[VIKING9]

Leeds based loco with 757's and 737's to buy Baby.

The coat is on, the door is open.....:O

[RHINO]

Stobart for me......

[Charley B]

Stobart would be good-they way they run their businesses put lots of others to shame-- the uk need more competent businesses like that:)

[JSCL]

But to be honest, Stobarts doesn't have the cash to throw in to Baby that it desperately needs.

Southend is only getting all this development done through some serious external finance. (£108m of it to be precise). They don't have good cash to be throwing after bad.

Sorry but for me, it isn't Stobarts.

[Hipennine]

Invest mega heavily in Southend, entice Easyjet to come in there, then buy a direct competitor ? Not a sensible business strategy.

[SR71]

So, frankly, nobody has a clue!

:E

[ETOPS]

Specially for Flying Wild

Update from Wolfgang Prock-Schauer regarding bmibaby

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear colleagues,

As you are aware we have been talking to various parties regarding the sale of bmibaby. We have now signed a term sheet for the sale of bmibaby to a UK based company. Below is the press release that will be distributed today. As the release states, the term sheet is non-exclusive and enables us to continue discussions with other interested parties. We are confident that this is a positive step towards finding a good future for bmibaby.

Regarding bmi Regional, as previously communicated, the sale is subject to certain pre-conditions being fulfilled. As soon as more information is available we will provide you with an update.

The process of the proposed sale of British Midland Ltd to IAG continues as outlined in my previous communication. There is no further update at this time but please be assured that we are giving you as much information as we can and we will continue to keep you updated.

With best regards,

Wolfgang Prock-Schauer

[handsfree]

In today's Leicester Mercury

bmibaby airline, Castle Donington, airport, leicestershire | This is Leicestershire (http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Mystery-surrounds-buyer-bmibaby-airline/story-15120169-detail/story.html)

Low-cost airlines easyJet and Flybe have declined to rule themselves out as the mystery buyer of rival bmibaby.
It comes after another rival, Jet2, yesterday told the Leicester Mercury it had not bought the carrier from Castle Donington airline group BMI.
Many analysts had suggested the Leeds-based operator was the likely buyer after BMI announced on Wednesday it had completed a preliminary deal to sell its budget subsidiary to a UK business.
Luton-based Monarch has also denied being the buyer.
BMI will not name the buyer or provide any more details about the deal.
When asked yesterday if they had bought bmibaby, spokeswomen for both Luton-based easyJet and Exeter-based Flybe would neither confirm or deny the suggestion.

[20feetretard]

Dart Group were spoken to in December but it was not pursued by either party. Staff don't know much more than the interested parties DO have airline experience (but not sure if it was UK or not) and one in particular was emphatic that their identity was to remain obscured. To be clear I do not know who it is but I have a better idea who it isn't. New type rating is suggested as likely.

[Flying Wild]

ETOPS:

Thanks, had already seen that. What I was getting at in previous posts is that nobody has said they are actually buying baby yet. Either party could still part ways after the term sheet has been signed. Having signed the term sheet allows for due diligence to be conducted on baby's books.

[sjm]

Who cares who it is, one thing is for sure they can't be a bad as BMI's mis- management/lack of investment over the last 10 years or LH's complete lack of interest in Baby since they took over.:ugh:

The purchase of Baby is a good thing. If it doesn't last under new owners then it would have never lasted anyway under LH's rule. The future is bright if it all goes through for baby!:O

Put a months salary it wont be Jet2 though:}

[Flightrider]

It is most unlikely to be Jet2. If Lufthansa have made this announcement then Jet2 (well, Dart Group PLC) would at best be in breach of good practice and at worst potentially in breach of market regulations if it failed to make some corresponding statement of its own.

The clues are in the Lufthansa statement. It has not granted exclusivity to the bmibaby buyer which means either a) it's not happy with the deal or b) that it isn't confident that the buyer can actually complete, or c) both. Best guess is that if this is a UK organisation, it's the management team who haven't yet got funding to support their buyout.

[Flying Wild]

Or d) trying to minimise how much it needs to pay someone to take baby...

[righthandrule]

Well Jet2 have just announced they are to go self handling as East Midlands, something that is not sustainable with just three based aircraft. Who ever gets hold of bmi baby need to act quick as Jet2 have big plans for EMA and with 8 new aircraft coming into the fleet over the next 12 months, I'm sure this time next year there may be more red than baby blue at EMA. BabYy's about to loose it's core and vital market unless something is announced soon so the major turnaround can begin.

[UPS@EMA]

Well Jet2 have just announced they are to go self handling as East Midlands, something that is not sustainable with just three based aircraft. Who ever gets hold of bmi baby need to act quick as Jet2 have big plans for EMA and with 8 new aircraft coming into the fleet over the next 12 months, I'm sure this time next year there may be more red than baby blue at EMA. BabYy's about to loose it's core and vital market unless something is announced soon so the major turnaround can begin.

2 questions.

1)Where have you heard about Jet2 going self handling at EMA?
2)Where have you heard about big plans for EMA?

Im sure that there will be more red than baby blue at EMA due to baby scaling back, but I cant genuinely see big expansion anytime soon

[redED]

Why would Jet2 buy into something if they can simply watch the carnage unfold

They wouldn't have to if they were getting paid to take it alla flybe and bacon.

[Little Blue]

Jet2 jobs all over their careers page on the website.
They will be self-handling at EMA from this summer.

[OliWW]

Jet2 only 'front house' self handling, ramp/ops will continue to be menzies...

[righthandrule]

Everyone within Jet2 has been told about the self handling operation at East Midlands, the jobs have been online for several weeks. Yes it is front of house, but to set up a self handling operation - around 40 PSA staff, station manager, duty managers, supervisors etc is not sustainable for just three aircraft with between 6 and 9 daily departures. There is a HUGE cost outlay to set up a self handling station and it is pretty clear that Jet2 want to be a major carrier at EMA.

The point i'm making is that Jet2 are gearing up to have the resources available for major expansion. I know this is the baby threat so I won't rattle on about Jet2, but baby and their new owners seriously need to act quick. It is hardly good for consumer brand confidence if the local press are publishing that no one wants to buy baby and it has an uncertain future. Is there really room for a loss-making, un-imagianative and extremely un-decisive carrier that really has retreated to a couple of airports and is now finding it extremely hard to survive as no one wants to buy them.

Baby is obviously a fairly well known brand around the midlands, but really lets be honest. If you were a family parting with hundreds of pounds for your family holiday - with the high degree of uncertainty would you fly with baby or one of their competitors? Lets be honest, baby are middle of the road and not particuarly cheap.

[bluepilot]

Jet2 have been advertising heavily in the midlands, in particular pushing the Jet2 Holidays package. They do have big plans for EMA and are moving in to mop up the BMI Baby mess and also cashing in on the uncertain future of Thomas Cook. Its sad but its a dog eat dog world in aviation.

[INKJET]

Some interesting posts, most of which add nothing and fall broadly in to two camps of pro Jet2 supporters and the anti baby bashes by the usual suspects!

Let's get rid of a few myths, there is no carnage or mess for anyone to mop up, Jet2 have a reasonable product, but have and will find it an uphill struggle at EMA holiday packages aside where they have like others benefited from the press coverage over TCX's problems. It's worth remembering that GO/Easyjet came and went,FR put 7/8 aircraft in & Jet2 didn't even bother with a ski programe ex EMA this winter meanwhile baby plodded on.

The reason that there is such a large dilution in value for baby and regional if LH have not sold either or both before IAG completes is pretty much the same reason why Jet2 are unlikely to get involved, remember IAG have a large fleet of 737 at LGW and the baby union is already looking at TUPE regulations, the best result for Jet2 would be closure of baby and pick up routes and crews on Jet2 T&C's IAG have already stated that they will intergrate bmi and are not interested ex LHR.

LH have signed a non exclusive terms sheet with a British company ( no mention of airline!) & Intro of Germany have stated publicly that they intend to join the fray and I would be very surprised if there wasn't at least one or two other parties involved before an exclusive binding contract is signed, LH will want to avoid a re run of the Granite/Regional saga in the 8 week run up to IAG completion.

Bmi group losses are not publicly broken down between divisions, off course there are losses in baby but some of the figures in the press and on here are I understand well short of the mark, in any event the exact position will be known to all suitors and the TSA is in effect a sale contract for the bmibaby business allowing the buyer to conduct due diligence in order to ensure there are no non disclosed skeletons.

Whilst this has dragged on longer than anyone expected its clear the end game is in sight. Once a new owner is on board I expect they to will get slagged off on Pprune for either being to bold or to timid, it will take the rest of the Summer to un pick bmibaby from the bmi group, move HQ & rebrand for 2013 & re fleet there after.

There is still no mass exodus of either staff, moral or more importantly customers from baby despite the efforts of some ex employees trying to be a "little" to clever by half to dislodge the airline on the hill at EMA:rolleyes:

[Little Blue]

Ha ha....very clever, Inky...;)

(But don't shoot the messenger)

[Belboy]

From AERBT
Who ever the new owner is, it will be challenging, just like every other aspect of the industry at the minute.
New owner on the way?
Lufthansa has confirmed that terms for the sale of bmibaby have been agreed. Whoever the mystery buyer is has not been announced, opening much speculation within the industry. The intended sale comprises 100% of the shares of low-cost subsidiary of bmi, which itself has been sold to British Airways, subject to Competition Commission approval. The bmibaby deal is non-exclusive and includes all assets and liabilities used in the bmibaby business including the 14-strong Boeing 737 Classic fleet, the existing route network and the continued employment of the existing staff.
It is envisaged that the legally binding transaction documents will be signed in the first quarter of 2012 and the completion of the transaction would occur shortly after this, subject to regulatory approval.
The new potential owner would continue to use the existing brand name for an interim period. The currently published summer 2012 schedule would continue.
bmibaby’s head office will remain in the Midlands and the airline continues to operate from its three existing bases in the UK: East Midlands, Birmingham and Belfast City.
bmi and the buyer have agreed not to disclose any financial aspects of the planned transaction.

[angelorange]

Lufthansa reaches deal to dispose of BMIbaby - FT.com (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/996a9200-4cf3-11e1-8741-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1lnpu6PJk)

[Flypuppy]

Old news agentorange.

A signed term sheet doesn't mean anything other than a interested party can look at the company in more detail. It is a very long way from concluding a deal.

[The Cleaner]

You just have to look at BMI Regional to see that an agreement in principle means nowt! That's been going on for months now with no signs of completion if any??

[COSTABRAVO]

I bet the buyer is Flybe.

[Unijet]

I have a sneaky suspicion it is Flybe too.

[JSCL]

But why would Europe's largest regional airline give a hoot about a loss making 737 outfit? They had issues with the finance for their E Jets. Don't think BE can suck up running Baby, I'm afraid to tell you.

[INKJET]

Er no......................

[Cazza_fly]

I bet the buyer is Flybe.


What makes you think this??? :confused:

[ib26uk]

What makes you both think it will be flybe that buy bmibaby?

[mona lot]

I hope I am wrong, but all this talk of a "MYSTERIOUS" buyer sounds very fishy to me.:uhoh:

I have seen this before and to me it seems like a smoke screen by management to maintain passenger confidence for forward bookings.

What assets would a potential buyer get for their investment? We all know Bmibaby aircraft are leased and the lease has been underwritten by DLH expiring 2013.

BMIbaby is a great company and deserves to succeed.

As our German friends say Viel Glück! :ok:

[caaardiff]

A few years ago a certain weirdly named Airline was taking shape to be a new setup in the UK and beyond.
The time wasn't great, they retreated into nothing, Exec's moved abroad to work, but still there is occasional talk.
IF Flyforbeans was still in the pipeline, this would be the perfect oppurtunity.
The owners would be UK registered, they wanted 737's (apparently -700's at the time)

Just to mix things up a bit.....

[JSCL]

I don't think now is the right time still for FlyForBeans, despite the opportunity.

[davidjohnson6]

Looks to me like we're in the end game of consolidation in the European airline industry. Spoils to the victors and naff all to the losers.

Cirrus, Malev and Spanair all closed in the last month.
IAG taking over bmi and consolidating their grip on LHR.
TAP thought to be up for sale later this year as Portugal needs the cash.
Wizzair and Ryanair finally locking horns and engaging in their long awaited fight over central / eastern Europe.
Air Berlin tying up with Etihad
Virgin Atlantic putting on a pout and hoping to find anyone who will dance with them
LOT up for sale with both Lufthansa and Air France bidding.
Czech airline reportedly slashing routes.
Norwegian just ordered 200 new aircraft, with a hope of possibly being able to beat SAS into submission.
Alitalia who already own Air One now buying up Windjet and Blue Panorama to take almost complete control of the Italian airline industry.

Would you honestly want to start up a new fledgling European carrier right now centred around bmibaby or otherwise ?

[flying officer kite]

not sure if its related, but what may support the Flybe rumour is the fact that a couple of managers within BMI/Baby were in Exeter (Flybe headquarters) a few days ago

[JSCL]

To be fair dj6, there are *some* European airports that have potential for regional air operators to start-up still. But I don't think these 737's are the right gear for the job in any start-up.

[mona lot]

what may support the Flybe rumour is the fact that a couple of managers within BMI/Baby were in Exeter (Flybe headquarters)

I did not know Flybe were holding interviews?

[Alvechurch]

So what have we got?

A mysterious buyer.
Connected with aviation but not necessarily an airline.
The Bmibaby Headquarters will be still be in the 'Midlands' but strangely not necessarily the East Midlands.
The buyer needs to be an optimist with lots of spare cash.

Well there's a guy who fits that description quite nicely.
Sir Peter Rigby over at Coventry Airport - as he can't get an airline to move into his airport he's possibly decided to buy his own! :)

[Pull what]

Bye Bye Baby Good Bye.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Thanks for that. It's certainly lovely to see how some people seem to delight in the potential loss of hundreds of jobs.

I'm still hopeful that Baby will be bought, but even my optimism is wearing very thin now. It'd be a very sad day if it was just closed, especially as I've enjoyed working alongside the peeps at baby and I like to think I've made some good friends there too.

[Pull what]

Yes its sad and it will be even sadder if Donington Hall goes too.

[Artie Fufkin]

Donnington Hall surely stands as a shining beacon for all the failings within the BMI group. When a business moves into a beautiful listed building like that, management have quite clearly stopped making decisions based on the pursuit of profit, letting down both their shareholders and staff.

Certain businesses need flashy headquarters, but only because it is part of the customer experience. No BMI passenger ever set foot in Donnington Hall, so you have to ask why shell out all that money for it?

My employer works out of a rather embarrassing portacabin on the side of a very unglamarous windswept airfield. They have been in continuous profit for 30 years and my job feels correspondingly safe.

[Yellow Sun]

Donnington Hall surely stands as a shining beacon for all the failings within the BMI group. When a business moves into a beautiful listed building like that, management have quite clearly stopped making decisions based on the pursuit of profit, letting down both their shareholders and staff.

You really don't get it, it was owned by SMB and leased to his company. He was the majority shareholder, it was all done in his interest.

YS

[Cazza_fly]

Donnington Hall surely stands as a shining beacon for all the failings within the BMI group. When a business moves into a beautiful listed building like that, management have quite clearly stopped making decisions based on the pursuit of profit, letting down both their shareholders and staff.

My employer works out of a rather embarrassing portacabin on the side of a very unglamarous windswept airfield. They have been in continuous profit for 30 years and my job feels correspondingly safe.

Well bmi British Midland have owned the hall for over 36 years now and have had their headquarters/operations here for 30 years so it cant do them as bad as you are making out....???

[Centre cities]

I think the Coventry rumour stands a chance.

Centre cities

[terrainterrainpullup]

I heard on the grapevine that the UK based company is Flyforbeans and the other interested company is ASL.

Was wondering if Inkjet has any knowledge of this as he seems to be in the know?

[runway30]

Interesting first post from terrain!

[terrainterrainpullup]

If the rumour is true about Flyforbeans I think it will be as successful for the company as when JC announced the opening of a BHD base. You never know they could bring in a new MD!!! Might not be too bad after all.

[Monty Gordo]

Well, lets see, in the past few days we have had Jet2, Flybe, Monarch, Sir Peter at Coventry, trucker Stobart, a German based company, venture capitalists and now a baked beans company.....

Let's be honest, no-one knows and will not know until a public announcement is made.

Only then will one of the lucky punters say: "I told you so, I was right!"

[Artie Fufkin]

Back on thread, I have it on good authority that one of the mystery buyers still in the running is a British entrepreneur by the name of Hilary Devey who is looking to buy 100% of the company.

We're talking about that gravelly voiced munter from Dragons Den??
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/feb2011/7/8/hilary-devey-pic-channel-4-979495519.jpg
And for that reason, I'm out

Who's next? Is M Mouse going to put in a bid? The Easter Bunny? The Chuckle Brothers?

:rolleyes:

[le grand fromage]

Yellow sun,
Utter bollocks that SMB leased the hall to the company...the hall was always owned freehold by the company and still is. Where do you get these ideas that have zero basis in fact? :=

[VC10man]

Baby cannot be very desirable, Sir Beardie has not made an offer yet.

[VIKING9]

Maybe Theo Profiterole will bid now that his knicker empire has collapsed :sad:

[G-AWZK]

Air Contractors/ASL Group seem to be emerging as a likely winner for Baby.

They would have the finance and know how to take on the company and could give it the life support it needs.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Maybe Bruce Dickinson is interested in the company as he stated quite clearly when Astraeus Airlines went bust that he would either try and revive it or work on ways that his friends can get jobs by setting up an airline.

Bruce Dickinson has already been linked to a possible MRO facility at MoD St Athan in South Wales and maybe this new airline could be the launch customer? With the MoD St Athan enterprise zones being extended to include Cardiff Airport maybe there could be a move of airline operations to South Wales eventually.

Plus he has background knowledge in other aspects that bmibaby stay clear of which could make their operation viable.

No link to any specific rumour but just a thought and another option

[JSCL]

Sounds like desperation from a welsh spotter to me.

[bazilbutler]

I heard Robert Mugabe might be interested..

[nigel osborne]

Can I start a rumour Baby might be taken over by Fabio Capello now he has more time on his hands.:}

Seems everybody else seems to be interested.. lol:)

Nigel

[mathers_wales_uk]

Sounds like desperation from a welsh spotter to me.I am neither a spotter or desperate however i was merely adding another possibility in the mix and not beyond the relmes of possibility however unlikely it may seem.

possibly bring your attention to this article (http://walesairforum.wordpress.com/?s=bruce+dickinson)

There are no rumours linking bmibaby to Bruce Dickinson at this stage however with his other aviation plans including MRO at MoD St Athan (South Wales) it is just a suggestions or another possibility in the mix and this suggestion is no better or worse than some others already mentioned.

I would like to add that the Cardiff crew at bmibaby were great and i pray for some good news that in the not so distant future we will see some familiar faces back at Cardiff Airport once again.

[mona lot]

All the best for the new bmi baby owner whoever it maybe, Heinz baked beans, Bruce Dickinson, Hilary Devey, Deborah Meadon or Theo Profiterole.

As I asked before, what assets would a potential new owner get for their investment, given that bmi Baby do not own their aircraft?.:confused:

I am OUT!

[JSCL]

Flybe don't own 85% of their fleet, does that mean you wouldn't buy them? No. The fact they don't own the fleet means little. Very few airlines own their fleet.

[mona lot]

Of course you are correct JSCL, but exactly what assets does Baby actually own?:confused:

As far as I know, they don't own their fleet or Donington Hall, so what exactly what would a buyer get for their investment?

I am OUT

[Herr Piece]

Flybe don't own 85% of their fleet, does that mean you wouldn't buy them?

YES!................

[Cazza_fly]

Well they will get a brand (at least the 'baby' part) that is very well know in the areas they operate and generally a now respected one.

Fully trained staff from frontline to back office.

A fleet of aircraft (owned or not, it is still a fleet that would otherwise, from a start-up perspective, be needed).

Probably most of all an air operating license.

The only thing I can see is that they will have to find a new head office/operations centre... I believe their old 'Tinytown' is still available?

[JSCL]

I'm sorry but as an investor both in and out of this industry, let me tell you that I rarely look at assets. Assets are for balance sheets and loans, not for tempting me to invest. What makes me invest is market potential and persons. Don't keep ranting on about assets because honestly, to any decent investor, they mean little (not saying assets aren't important, because they are).

[qwertyuiop]

Does anybody know if BMI/baby have any fuel hedging in place for 2012?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Tell me you aren't an idiot?

Tell me you aren't a wannabe.

Tell me you aren't a Flt Sim expert.

Hedging is the least of baby's problems.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

JSCL,

with losses running at £25 Mill per annum, you would have to see some potential to take it on.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Also, one has it on good recognisance that Tesco are in the frame.

Every little helps :-)

[20feetretard]

I VERY strongly agree with G AWZK's last post...especially the first two words.

[G-AWZK]

Anything you would like to tell us retard?

I am hearing things on the jungle drums but nothing definite (as is the usual case with anything bmi related....)

[20feetretard]

I'm just agreeing with you following a conversation in the last seven days with someone who PROBABLY has a reason to know more than I. If it has gone as far as that person then it could be close to completion. I have no idea if it is signed yet.

[G-AWZK]

Sorry, I was just taken aback that anyone would agree with me on this thread.

Maybe inkjet knows more....:ok:

If Air Contractors were to take over bmiBaby, it is probably the best outcome for the staff. ASL at least has the knowledge and experience of running an aviation business and depending on the deal that can be struck with Lufthansa it should be a fairly painless exit from the bmi Group. It sure as hell makes alot more sense than Tesco!!

It would be interesting to know what is happening with Regional now.... :confused:

[20feetretard]

AC would be a good result for baby. BMIR...who knows exactly, I hear good news one day and bad the next, but I hope it works out. They have some good guys there.

[runway30]

Are you guys suggesting that the bidder that signed a term sheet, which wasn't AC, are not now the most likely purchaser?

[runway30]

It has only been announced that one bidder has signed a term sheet, are you saying that there is more than one bidder at that stage?

[acbus1]

Anyone tried this lot?

Mothercare UK Limited 2012

Call us on 0844 875 5222 Mothercare UK Limited (a private limited company).

Registered in England no. 533087. VAT Reg no. 440 6445 66

Registered Office: Cherry Tree Road, Watford, Hertfordshire, WD24 6SH

Mothercare (http://www.mothercare.com)


Time to jump ship before it sinks any lower in the water.

I sympathise with the workforce, but it's time to get real and save yourselves. Lifejackets are in short supply in the airline industry (baby cots even moreso).

[INKJET]

Just out on day release are you?

Ignore this troll a review of his anti bmi postings = jerk off

[acbus1]

By all means ignore me, but don't ignore the unanswered question no doubt on every employees lips: 'Who is going to save my job?'

[FR-]

I was thinking more of Mammas & Papas.

fr-

[mart901]

FR

When it comes throwing toys out of the pram you need look no further than Mr O'Leary

[pwalhx]

Think you will find neither Mamas and Papas or Mothercare are in a financial state good enough to be looking at acquisitions

[nitefiter]

Ramp FM this week was that if the BMIR deal falls through then the pilots go with the bmi pilots to BA.:hmm:
My Brief seems to think that would also have to be the case with us but needs to check out the contracts a bit more.:confused:

[INKJET]

Your brief is correct.

IAG have agreed to purchase 100% of the bmi group for approx £170m that price assumes that both bmir & WW would have been sold or at least in contract to be sold prior to completion of the share purchase of bmi.

My understanding is that the agreement in terms of price can be modified downwards should bmir and/or WW not be sold, the reason for the reduction is that on buying the whole of bmi group IAG will have to take on all liabilities for bmir and/WW and IAG do not require these units, in simple terms they don't fit and they would then have the task and costs of selling or closing these units.

Were this to pass it all gets a bit messy to say the least! remember that BA as part of the IAG group operate 737 from LGW. TUPE rules and the fact that BA will need far more pilots than the sum of BA & BMI due to a net increase of long haul slots requiring more crews per aircraft than short haul and hiring and firing at the same time is never clean.

My own personal view is that the chances of regional being sold now is no better than 50/50 and it's prospects outside of its feeder work for bmi/SN/LH are bleak with fuel hungry/low seat count aircraft and a wage bill per pilot higher than say Eastern or Flybe.

I still think WW will find a new home given the reported 5+ suitors but like bmir I suspect the deal may not be completed prior to the EU approval on he 16th of March but I think a binding agreement may be in place by then. At some stage the buyer will have to meet the unions and staff reps at which point the who will no doubt leak on to these pages!

The who? Is probably the best kept secret ever in bmi history

[Montezuma]

Exactly what source believes that there has to be integration with BA?

It is IAG who are buying, BA is just one of their brands: there does not exist any entitlement to integrate with BA any more so than exists with Iberia.

The future or Baby and Regional is in the hands of DLH and IAG, not BA.

[INKJET]

Sources

IAG have already stated publicly that they intend to integrate bmi into BA.

IAG have agreed to buy 100% of the bmi group, bmibaby and bmi regional are wholly owned by bmi, it is for this reason that Willi Walsh has stated that the agreed price would be substantially reduced (£60m+) if WW and bmir are not sold prior to the share transaction completion expected end of Q1

WW & bmir are for now in the hands of DLH but that will become IAG on sale completion if they are not sold before hand.

[nitefiter]

I think i may be correct , did i not quote RAMP FM??

[TartinTon]

"It isn't BA who are buying!" really?

So why is there a senior BA guy doing a talk at an upcoming conference the title of which is "What will happen when BA buys BMI?"

Let's not be naive here....

[runway30]

Inky, I thought the 'who' had already leaked onto these pages?

[INKJET]

I don't think the name of the company who has signed a TSA has been on here?:(

[one post only!]

Tartin, IAG have submitted the MERGER proposal to the European regulators with a view to merging BMI with one of the airlines they also own...BA.

So while the speaker from BA is convinced they are taking over BMI it appears that the group who owns BA and also the European commission both think differently?

[Currock Base]

Tartin - Considering everyone in BA has been told BMI remain a competitor it seems unlikely anyone from BA would be daft enough to do this at a conference.

Would you care to name the person and conference or is this just a rumour?

[davidjohnson6]

This is all standard pre merger / takeover stuff. IAG needs to cover itself against the possibility that the EU unexpectedly either blocks the transaction or imposes sufficiently stringent conditions as to effectively block it. Furthermore any kind of co-operation at the moment between bmi and IAG may be viewed as being a cartel or a breach of competition rules - hardly welcome when competition authorities are watching all parties involved extra carefully at the moment. The obvious solution is for IAG to go out of its way to emphasise to staff the importance of treating bmi as a competitor. That way if someone from BA does something ill advised, IAG can say it wa just a rogue member of staff who will be sent for disciplinary action.

In the UK, while legally different entities, BA *is* IAG, and IAG *is* BA effectively. bmi is not big in Spain and while there might be the odd cabin crew with a Spanish spouse who wants to transfer to Madrid this will be an exception. If the transaction goes through bmi mainline flight operations and back office will be merged into BA. bmi as a legal entity may however survive for a lot longer. The costs of maintaining bmi as a separate brand are just too high to do anything else - there is little emotional attachment amongs the UK public to seeing bmi as the UK's sole national flag carrier, being bought up by evil forsigners unlike as might have happened with KLM, Swiss or Austrian - this will be more akin to American Airlines buying TWA - once the legal side had completsd the TWA logo disappeared quickly.

Suppose someone from BA gives a presentation entitled "What will happen if IAG buys bmi?" Substantially the same subject with the same content, everyone in IAG remains on message, and the lawyers and competition authorities are happy.

[davidjohnson6]

Flypuppy - are there credible companies out there who want to take over bmir and even if LH / IAG pay them to take on bmir, can they put together a business plan which has the support of their main bank and won't risk breaching existing debt covenants ?

While a company with no debt can do whatever the shareholders and directors desire, most companies either have a loan or will need a loan to grow their business. If the bank manager won't lend or only at a very high interest rate, then usually better not to start the project in the first place.

The longer it takes for a buyer for either bmibaby or bmir to sign a legally binding contract of sale, the less likely it is that anything will be signed at all.

On the politics side, there will still be Loganair - allowing a defence to the 'Scotland has an airline no more' claim. When Malev went bust, life in Hungary still carried on...

[davidjohnson6]

My point about the bank being supportive is that if Granite or whoever else take in bmir, even with a handout from DLH / IAG to take on bmir, it is likely that Granite will need to borrow some cash from somewhere to cover losses until bmir is lobg term profitable. This could mean raising equity from current shareholders, talking to a venture capital fund, but it's likely the bulk of the cash will come from a bank. If the bank won't commit now to providing a loan facility in the next 2 years it puts much more risk on the shareholders - are the shareholders willing to accept the risk of possible over expansion ?

[INKJET]

I was referring to a Terms sheet agreement.

Re Regional I think that the deal re Granite was announced in what Oct or Nov? and seems to have stalled, the rumours are that Granite would get £2 of assets for every £1 invested,so for an investor it's double your money apart that is from ensuring that it at leasts breaks even.

I don't think the Scottish card comes into it. Bmir may have its operational head office in ABZ but it's run from the Midlands like or not or more accurately FRA. There is no shortage of flights between Scotland & England so I doubt the competion people will be concerned one way or the other, access to LHR is of course another matter, but we are all Europeans now so LHR is to be viewed the same as AMS BRU CDG FRA and let's face it many choose to avoid LHR.

Speaking strictly from a pilots point of view many may be better off within IAG let's face it a back door into BA would be a result that few could have dreamt of!

[Montezuma]

Inkjet, you persist with the BA association: it is IAG, not BA.

BA is a brand, check the IAG website.

[INKJET]

Bmi is to be intergrated into BA not IAG 6 months from now bmi will not exsist all bmi slots will be flown by BA tails. I if you think otherwise let's hear your vision of how this will unfold?


IAG is an holding company not an airline!!

[Montezuma]

Precisely.

If IAG decide to merge bmi with Iberia at the last minute will you moan?

As for bmir and baby IAG can do what they wish: but it isn't BA doing buying!

[max nightstop]

Why don't some of you do some research before posting? The buyer for bmi is still not precisely determined, according to the papers submitted to the EU Competition Comission:

"International Airlines Group (IAG) and LHBD Holding Limited entered into an
agreement on 22 December 2011 pursuant to which IAG – directly or via its
subsidiary BA – will acquire from LHBD Holding Limited 100% of the shares of
British Midland Limited (bmi)."

So either eventuality remains a possibility. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the actual purchaser is determined by the existence of baby and/or regional within the bmi group at the time of purchase.

[EI-BUD]

If you really believe that the Scottish Government are going to just let BA/IAG close down a Scottish airline with out a screaming match

flypuppy, this may well be fair comment, though lets consider Scotland and BA. BA fly LHR, LGW and LCY to Scotland to 3 airports.

On the LHR routes BA will be the sole operators if the acquisition goes ahead. It would seem unlikely that the capacity will be expanded in an overall context, on say LHR Scotland routes. If anythink BA will make the capacity as close a match to demand or current pax numbers overall so as to ensure best use of the limited slots at London.

Back to point, given that in the main BA is the primary carrier and has attractive routes, what will the PR do, drive passengers to the competition on the main routes to LHR their will be no exact competition, hence what will the passengers do start flying to other London airports instead when LHR is really where they want to go???? Maybe they could do AFWX to LCY and EZY to LGW. Im not convinced that the potential negative PR will do much harm at all, if this materialises.

On the subject of the who will buy or own bmi, depending on the contract that is in place for bmi staff (or bmir or baby for that matter), will have a bearing on the future.Eg if the contract says 'we reserve the right to move your work to a different country etc in line with the needs of the business' (note down work for bmi etc so dont know the precise details, the employees will). Will these contract details still stand and if so could say pilots be offered say moved to different divisions subject to type rating and need etc.. and have an option to go or not. Not sure that it matters one bit who is said to be buying the company over.

IAG is buying and it will do whatever it likes with the assets when it takes them over. Note also (hate to say it) BA and Willie will make commercial decisions that are right for the financial health of IAG/BA/IB etc. He will give maximum comfort on things like domestic routes, monopoly situation etc until the green light is given to the take over. That makes perfect sense, I cant see him having decided on routes etc until that happens.

Interesting to see that from today I see EI BFS LHR flights now show codeshare with BA on departure screens.... this hasnt happened in the last 4 years.

EI-BUD

[Skipness One Echo]

If you really believe that the Scottish Government are going to just let BA/IAG close down a Scottish airline with out a screaming match I think you may not understand just how badly BA are regarded by Holyrood. The Scottish media would love a pop at BA, and would give Lufty an impressive PR reaming

Yup, mainly as they are inward looking insular racist and anti English, God forbid we admit that one. Before you kick off, I am a Scot from the West of Scotland so the "England are to blame for all Scotland's ills" nonsense is well indoctrinated. The country of Hume and Adam Smith is long dead.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

I have after reading the last few days of posts, have this to put forward.
The LHBD group has agreed to sell the BMI group, to the IAG group.
So my take on it is this, IAG owns BA and plans to integrate one of the three airlines from the BMI group, namely BMI into BA.
The other two airlines in the BMI group are not wanted by the IAG group.
As pointed out, if the LHBD group can not off load BMIR & bmibaby prior to the agreed date, then the payment from IAG is drastically reduced, or nothing at all.
The way l see it and l hope it does not happen, this enables the IAG group to shut down both BMIR & bmibaby. This is why the drastic reduction in price that IAG will pay.

[airhumberside]

IAG have agreed to buy 100% of the bmi group, bmibaby and bmi regional are wholly owned by bmi, it is for this reason that Willi Walsh has stated that the agreed price would be substantially reduced (£60m+) if WW and bmir are not sold prior to the share transaction completion expected end
The IAG press release never stated that bmi regional being included would incur a price reduction, just baby

[Montezuma]

@max nightstop

Why don't some of you do some research before posting?

Flypuppy has done a damn sight more research than a bmi pilot on maxi nightstops!

@Spotty M - too right buddy, too right.

[VC10man]

I can't help but think that SRB is missing a good opportunity.
He could buy baby and rename it VirginBaby. He could announce that he has ordered 200 Boeing 797s, with the new secret RR engine, to take on Ryanair and Easyjet.
Money should not be a problem, he does own a bank.
I hope to be on the first flight of this new airline, I missed out flying on Concorde, now what a good idea, VirginConcorde. No that would be impossible!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

[Montezuma]

No idea what VC10man is on, but it must be fearsome stuff ;)

[Trossie]

Quote:

"There are a number routes served by both Baby and Regional which would leave Scotland less well connected to other parts of the UK... "

But the 'greenies' (in Labour, Lib-Dem, Scot Nazis, Tories as well as Greens) don't want people to travel by air, so the loss of all those services will be seen by them as a victory! There are trains... stick with them!! (Or, root out all the 'greenies'!!!)

[Facelookbovvered]

I think that bmir wasn't mentioned because they thought it had been sold already, anyway this is all thread drift........

[TartinTon]

Currock...no rumour..check the French Connect website.

Speaker is Patrick Malval...subject...and I quote:

What will be the impact of the purchase of British Midland by British Airways?
The Iberia Merger: What are the consequences for European Airports?

[davidjohnson6]

Flypuppy may also have a point on Aberdeen. Very difficult to blame BA for not continuing beach routes to the Med but equally cannot see BA wanting to keep any route out of ABZ open besides Heathrow. Yes flybe and Eastern may compete already on Manchester and Norwich routes but when a monopoly provider fares will presumably increase. What happens to Esbjerg and Groningen though - would Eastern be interested ?

Presumably if bmir was wound up, SAS, Brussels and Swiss would each open an Edinburgh route.

[INKJET]

Experience teaches to expect the unexpected! Let's see what this next week brings, we must be approaching the end game.

[Merchant Banker]

Forgive me because I am no expert, but can IAG just shut down Bmir and Baby then make all the staff redundant?

[Facelookbovvered]

I would guess that's the reason for the price reduction if they are not sold before IAG takes full control of bmi.

Having said that it would not be simple or straight forward, especially in WW's case with a full Summer schedule ahead and I guess saying to the boys and girls at the sharp end BTW your finished in Autum would not be er? motivational so they would have to offer either an enhanced retention package, unlikely or bite the bullet and an immediate shut down, again unlikely or more likely continue to seek disposal.

With regional it's more difficult to see a positive out come E135/145 are a waste of a LHR slot and flying for beeline under IAG won't can't last, there's not much left, Flybe might make some sense? but what to do with the ERJ's are they owned or leased?

Perhaps a third way might be to get someone to take on WW & bmir, if the ERJ's are owned, then gifting them in to a new set up as assets might add some meat? They could share a lot of the back room stuff, the 737 or more likely ERJ's could become a fleet and a lot of overheads would go at a stroke. The new company could cut an exchange deal with Embraer with owned ERJ's traded in for E Jets which would work well on WW's short routes or thinner longer routes? Just a thought, probably a daft one:confused::confused::confused:

[Facelookbovvered]

I don't think you could rule Jet2 out of the frame but friends at baby tell me the company line is that Jet2 are not involved so it's probably true;):rolleyes:

[nitefiter]

It is one of the many rumours doing the rounds at the moment.
most I've spoken to seem to think it makes some sense, but we will just have to wait and see.
Personally i hope not but eh oh.:confused:

[G-AWZK]

The current runners and riders for Baby are:

Intro Aviation 25-1
Tesco 100-1
Orange (telecom) 1000-1
Jet2 4-1
Stobart Group 5-1
Management buy out 1000000000000000-1
IAG to retain 3-1


Anyone know of any others?

[JSCL]

On non-jokey terms. Co-op.

[runway30]

None of them are the party that signed the term sheet.

[munster]

ASL group!

[LGS6753]

Didn't someone mention Air Contractors?

[Montezuma]

The only peeps who know anything are DLH: let's just wait and see.

[G-AWZK]

None of them are the party that signed the term sheethow would you know?

[Montezuma]

Does it matter chief?

Fact is £5K per jet per day is a lot of turn round for Stobart / Tesco / RBS / HSBC / Waitrose / Morrisons / Sainsbury / Body Shop / Hilary Wossname.

[Albert Hall]

So, runway30, it must be the bunch of next-Gen Arfur Daleys from south Wales who signed the term sheet then? No wonder Lufthansa were unsure if the deal would complete - they must have met them! Probably had to lend them a pen to sign the term sheet and didn't get it back afterwards either.

[TartinTon]

Little birdie tells me that a certain LTN based airline could be interested due to the dowry that comes with the rugmonkey....

[nitefiter]

2 mill a month where did that figure come from????

[Montezuma]

14 jets * £5K per day = £70K per day.

You do the next bit :ok:

[nitefiter]

its more than double the amount that WPS let slip... much to everyones amazement, at a meeting last year.

[nitefiter]

ps ,
not quite correct on your maths as we aint been operating 14 all winter so you do the maths eh!!

[Montezuma]

And the utilisation is one of the primary reasons that the losses are so severe: doesn't matter what sort of spin you put on it, £25M a year in losses is a lot to turn round.

[Buster the Bear]

I would guess the cost of oil has had a knock on effect. Airlines are spending hundreds of $millions or even £billions, a slight rise will induce potential losses. Consistent issues relating to long routes in Spain cannot help?

£25 million is not a massive amount to turn around, newer generation more frugal jets might help?

[redED]

£25 million is not a massive amount to turn around

£25,000,000 / year
≈ £481,000 / week
≈ £68,000 / day
≈ £4,900 / aircraft (provided all 14 flying)
≈ £1,200 / sector (based on 4 sector day)
≈ £8 / seat (provided every seat is full

No not a massive amount at all! :ugh:

[Sonic Bam]

"Announcement tomorrow ...... " about 4:59pm maybe?

[rudolf]

Would have thought the share price would have dropped 20p if it was Jet2!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Let me give you a reminder of some of our rules. PLEASE LISTEN, before you get yourself into a situation that can and will, if the time is ripe, come to bite you in the arse!

If ANYONE makes an allegation against anyone, or a company on PPRuNe, they may be called upon to substantiate those claims and WILL then have to suffer the consequences thus: You will be required, first to confirm the details you have used in any attempt to bring to light ANYTHING that is not in the public domain. You will then be required to hand over your full name and address should it be required. Then to sign a document that you stand by your allegation/s.

Got that? One or two of you are sailing into the wind. Be it on your head. I strongly advise you to step nack before you fall into the pit you yourself dug.

PPP

[Artie Fufkin]

Like, where? what? when?

All that's been said is that most think that Baby are an "interesting" investment opportunity and that Hilary is a munter. Hardly high court material!

[davidjohnson6]

Worth reading up on libel and insider trading laws in various jurisdictions. A good corporate lawyer working for a large company can, armed with injunctions cause no end of trouble for a small individual. Doesn't mean the corporate lawyer would win a case but defence in a senior court is a major headache to be avoided unless essential. Ms Johnson is a solicitor who used to do litigation in commercial courts

[Artie Fufkin]

ok then, Hilary is gorgeous and I think Baby is a great investment opportunity.

Happy, m'lud?

[Montezuma]

My figures on losses are all based on the information available on the LH Investor Relations section of their website, worked through on averages pro rata per airframe based on the group having 60 airframes.

You can do the same per passenger as they specify the group passenger numbers at 6194000 for FY 2010.

Lufthansa Annual Report 2010
British Midland


2010
Revenue €m 896
Operating result €m -145
EBITDA €m -117
Passengers carried thousands 6,194
Employees as of 31.12. number 3,613

[OliWW]

or to put it another way, nobody post anything ever! :ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

That's about right.

Though I'm used to the mod's treating everyone like naughty children on here, it still grates massively when it's put in such a high handed manner.

Especially when they leave stuff up that could be naughty, but censor and ban people from threads with no explanation or seeming justification, other than because one of their mates didn't like what was said about them.

Consistency and transparency aren't phrases I'd use to describe the moderation on here in recent times. One of the reasons I and huge numbers of others don't bother with the place in the same way that we used to and that it's a site that imparts a lot of noise, but very little other than that. It's still a good resource for some things, but that usually entails searching threads from a few years ago rather than much current stuff.

Poor old pprune. It used to be such an interesting place.

[larry the man]

here,here. I made a posting a few weeks ago, totally correct information which I would have been prepared to verify if called on to do so, but didn't get the courtesy of being told off like a naughty child. The thread just got closed with no explanation. Definitely not the site, or the fun it used to be. Bye again.

[VIKING9]

Larry - don't use the site then. Simples...

[AltFlaps]

and back to the thread

What time will the announcement be then?

[the_penguin]

what announcement? are we going to find out something today about the future owner of bmi baby

[Say again s l o w l y]

I wonder if the person who put that up is able to post still? I'm hearing that it won't be long until it's all sorted out, but I know nothing about an announcement today.

[Hogg]

Guys

Keep this thread for BmiBaby relevance posts.

Feel free to start a fly4beans thread.

AAR Mods

[PPRuNe Pop]

OK. While some of you continually stretch the rules and then play 'lets bash a mod' moment you will find that our tolerant level becomes remarkably low.

Now! When someone wants to have a sensible thread without the need for us to been overworked, and you stop finding PPRuNe 'the pits,' then you can ask. I am stopping short of mentioning the childish remarks being made, but then again I am shutting the thread down.

AA&R Mods.