Bmibaby

[CHfour]

Mateyboy, careful what you say to old doggy. I reckon it could be Captain B! (punctuation justified).

[SR71]

Why should I be made redundant because I started 8 months ago?...

If your contract stipulates LIFO and you didn't like it, you should have thought about that when you joined...

If you want to start proposing we all accept unilateral variations to our contract, I don't think you're going to get much support from any of the audience here...

:=

[Hudson Bay]

Lets get this right. You think you should remain in a job because you joined before me? What a load of old tosh. You are older than me! Of course you are going to have joined before me you idiot.

I don't care what my contract says, the law is the law. My contract says I will have a temperature controlled hotel room, free from noise for night stops. I never do. Things change, life moves on and LIFO is old hat, dreamt up by your generation. Get over it and accept it. If it was your company don't tell me you would want to get rid of all the crews that work hard for you.

LIFO is outlawed and you don't like it because it may affect you. Well hard luck matey. You shouldn't have gone sick at the drop of a hat and refused that discretion because you didn't want to do a duty, not because you were fatigued. The hens have come home to roost and you are rightly worried. I'm not, because I have worked dam hard in an honest way and if I am made redundant on LIFO I will drag the company through the courts claiming unfair dismissal.

Some of you think you are more worthy because you maybe one above me on the seniority list. Some of you think you are more worthy because you are one hundred places above me on the seniority list. You will always believe that you have the right to the job because you are selfish and misguided just like BALPA.

[babymike737]

I apologise to old doggy for my rant! I saw red mist! And I'm sorry about my use of !'s, I can't help it! I'm seeing the quack tomorow! Yes I don't always spell corectly and punctuate , correctloy on prune, but I dont care! I don't know where these italics came from either!

Anyway sorry Doggy! You're (nothing to do with you being capt B.....I know you're not anyway, I just don't like people taking the micky thats all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I feel bad:{

[spotwind]

This is done to death every time there are redundancies at any airline. After all the fussing and fighting everyone generally comes to the concensus that LIFO forms the most transparent and fair way of dealing with this unpleasant situation.

Please explain why the older guys cost more? (at baby)

Your attitude is one of superiority and arrogance, but in reality I imagine youre one of those guys that jumps two lines ahead of the checklist and thinks its cool. :ooh:

See you at the meeting on thurs eh ? If not, I look forward to flying with you, you sound like a real nice relaxing day out :}

[CHfour]

Hudson Bay,
I don’t really know why I’m even bothering to reply to your lunatic ravings but here is the link (again) proving the legality of LIFO.

http://www.parissmith.co.uk/publications/employment-update-4-11-08.pdf.pdf

In case you find it too challenging to navigate to the link the title states:
REDUNDANCY SELECTION: LENGTH OF SERVICE CRITERIA IS VALID
And on the subject of getting things straight, a seniority list is not a list of people’s ages but a list of dates of joining (duh). There are younger people above me and older ones below. I could go on but you’re obviously too bitter and twisted to absorb any rational argument at the moment. I’d hate to be on a flight deck with you during an emergency, or in the back for that matter.

[Dog E. Stile]

Now don't even get me started on all those capitals....

[moist]

Hudson,

What worries me deeply here is that I know you and I fly with you, yet I never thought that you had all this deep crap festering inside you.
You are one huge mental case and that worries me even more!!!
You have signed up on LIFO conditions, like it or loath it (like all of us).
You didn't seek to change them, or walked away from it at the time.
You should have stayed with Flybe.
Why not just resign anyway, the sooner the better.
I do sincerely hope you get the chop, just for the laugh of it.

:ugh:

[Binder]

Hudson,

Speaking as an 'Old Fossil' as you put it; I can say that you are entitled to your view,though many would disagree.

What is unbelievable is your selfish attitude.

Years ago the 'Old Fossils' would have weeded out people like you and suggested another career.

I sincerely hope you keep your attitude out of the Flight Deck.

Binder

[apron]

It amazes and saddens me the length that individuals go to protect their jobs. Hudson...you will I'm sure be naming who you believe should go to protect your job. Or maybe forwarding it to the HR department.

I cannot comment for BHX but I certaintly do not fly with any dead wood and I'm sure this applies to all bases. On the contrary I think that all the crews I have the privilige of flying with do a great job and barring the odd moan, which I have been guilty of myself, are amongst the finest bunch of people I have ever worked with. (When I say do a great job I mean genuinly try to make the operation run smoothly...some obviously are better than others)

With regards to all the BHX crews, some who I know personally and others I have been in the sim with, good luck. My position by the looks of things is in no way safe under the current HR proposal but I sincerely believe that LIFO will stand, be it at base or from the company seniority list. Having spoken to ACAS and a Barrister that specialises in Employment law, they find it hard to see how other matrixing can be used within our industry. For example sickness, it is MY licence and to maintain it I require a medical, MY medical and therefore it is my decision if I deem myself unable to operate...therefore the group will open themselves to tribunals on alot of factors.


This LIFO verses ageism is tosh. The union for Rolls Royce won an appeal to enforce this very rule. The age demographic is quite good having looked at the seniority list This is down to the fact that our C Pilot recognises that ageism should play no part in our employment policy.....therefore our list is not ageist.

A very sad situation we find ourselves in and indeed some elbows appear to have been shapened but gentlemen let us stand together rather than dividing. I appreciate this will not suit everyone as they may feel their jobs are at risk more so than others but if you believe in this industry make a stand now and support each other and maybe we can limit the number of compulsory redundancies by pay freezes, the flydubai boys going etc. This is a fantastic airline with great people and unfortunately we have to change to survive within the current economic climate.
Good luck to you all. :ok:

[Looker]

I hope I never have to share a lifeboat with Hudson. :ugh:

Listening to him droning on with his mantra "LIFO is illegal" or jumping to certain death - its not an easy decision.

[FlyboyUK]

Hudson

I sincerely hope I don't every have to fly with you with your attitude.

I think we all live in the real world on this one, good luck to all my colleagues who are affected.

[SR71]

Hudson,

The whole world really is against you mate....one wonders why...

Good luck fighting your corner.

With your attitude I'm sure the soldiers will be right behind you as you go over the top...

:ok:

[pint'alfempty]

Hudson,

Can I suggest that you express your views on the company BALPA forum? Perhaps you feel that you need the cloak of anonymity when you point the finger at your work mates (if you're not a member then perhaps you suffer from short arm/deep pocket syndrome). There are no 'fossils' at baby. Perhaps your rantings will emerge in the crewroom and we'll be able to identify you then.

[Killigrew]

HUDSON BAY...
I sure would like to be around when you're 'colleagues' discover who you are.
You do EVERYONE in the company a huge disservice with your appalling 'I AM' attitude.
I can only think that PD was having a particularly bad day on the day in which you were employed.
Do the decent thing..either put up or shut up !

[one four sick]

14th January 2008, 11:12 Hudson Bay

Inconsiderate bunch of BTSADRAS. I got in the house last night at 1am following 10 hours and 4 sectors. I then get woken up at 7am with a stupid text telling me about useless company information. I have already reported it to the CAA and if I do not get a day off in lieu I will take 5 off sick. Up to you Flybe. I am very angry. In fact I am sick for later on today. Find some other mug.

According to this quote above, he's still been working for Flybe in January 2008! Do not confuse him with someone else!! It's a good quote though for baby management to have a look at!!!
The guy's utterly mental as all it would have taken, is to turn off his mobile! Doh. Reported it to the CAA - yeah right.

[Max Angle]

Whilst I am generally in favour of LIFO it certainly does result in dead wood in the form of career FO's who are not up to a command (some of them by a very long way) and yet sit for years at the top of the list whilst far more capable people at the bottom get made redundant. They get the best pay, the best leave and job security as a reward for not being good enough to be a Captain, hardly seems fair does it?.

[Miss Management]

Max Angle,

You don't seem to work for baby by the look of it.
We don't really have career FOs and all of us get the same chance to bid for leave.
This is no BA with bidline!
LIFO is the FAIREST system there is. If there was anything fairer, we would all be working according to that!

[F14]

Plenty of jobs at FR.......:}

[CHfour]

Whilst I am generally in favour of LIFO it certainly does result in dead wood in the form of career FO's who are not up to a command (some of them by a very long way) and yet sit for years at the top of the list whilst far more capable people at the bottom get made redundant. They get the best pay, the best leave and job security as a reward for not being good enough to be a Captain, hardly seems fair does it?.


Possibly true but it's not a major issue with Baby. A career FO will not prevent others below from progressing to the left seat and can be a valuable asset to the company. Dead wood (if we even have any) can be weeded out in other ways such as re-training. If LIFO is replaced by perceived merit/management selection it would IMHO create a brown noser's paradise.

[Hudson Bay]

No attitude. Just saying how it is. LIFO is History. The problem is with you. You don't like change. It really is that simple.

You remind me of the old age pensioners in Asda. They don't move out of the way either. What are they thinking? The same as you. That old chestnut of "I've been here longer than you". Seniority lists are dated and do not mean a thing. The more modern companies do not have them. Does that not say something to you?

I really really don't care if you have been with British Midland for 25 years. You are no better than anybody else. And guess what? The company doesn't care either. As far as the company is concerned everybody is of equal standing and those with a poor performance record will go. There is no debate on that score. The one and only argument is if the redundancies are carried out on a base by base basis or as a company as a whole.

[apron]

Hudson...do you make your opinion very apparant at work?? I doubt it. I am quite sure that there are management pilots reading your posts with great discomfort. How could they have employed such a pleb??

You are saying that seniority lists are ageist but you quite clearly believe the "old crusties should go...is this not contraveving the age discrimination laws you so strongly believe in??

Obviously you have been flying this evening so I can guess who you are if I spared about 2 mins to look into it. Ex Flybe, 8ish months with Baby...although this may be a bit of a smoke screen.

I cannot say I wish that you are made redundant because I wish this on no one. I hope you are taking the piss with some of your comments and that maybe some day soon you will realise that this industry is bigger than you.
PS...do you sit about 19_ish on the list?? :=

Good luck....

[babymike737]

Don't give Hudson airtime. He's got an agenda, and we've worked out who "they" are.

[Killigrew]

Albertz
It sure ain't number one and be careful with number two...pretty sure it ain't them, either. (Wonder if crewing have any idea?)
He/she is either a total wind-up merchant, has a totally different agenda to the rest of us, or really is that one bad apple in the barrel.
Of all the crew that I've talked to, every one would accept LIFO as that is what was written into their 'legally binding' contract.
Can you imagine if every flight deck member thought in the same way as HUDSON BAY? Carnage or maybe that's what she/he really wants?
Hmmm

[spotwind]

You're a celeb !

You were subject of our conversation in the local last night.... for nearly as long as it takes to pour a Guinness!

We figure'd it, youre a wind up merchant :ok:

Game over :}

[Aerofoil]

Albertz

Having spoken to number 2 I can tell you he is all for LIFO so it ain't him. He has also never worked for Flybe or any other airline unlike Hudson Bay as you can see from Hudsons previous posts.

Lets be careful here as the finger has already been pointed at two guys who are innocent of posting such things on here. The last thing we all need is people being added to the 'hit list' based on the belief they are Hudson Bay!

[Icabod]

Look lower down the list, between 100 and 120 ish

Be careful of the smokescreen. Review of HB's posts Gill Air, baby at MME. with this quote :-Nothing negative about bmi. One of the best companies to work for. Just received a pay rise. On time may I add. Things are looking good for the future and for those that collect type ratings an... dated 28 Apr 06. You figure it out, it's not hard.

I

[ATCO1979]

Ryanair posting a 'Ryanair BMIbaby Rescue Fair' on the ryanair website... Ryanair usually make these fares available for bust airlines.

[Killigrew]

Pikeyair are doing their usual gutter-like best to try and spread panic amongst the customers.
What goes around comes around, eh?

[daz211]

Or maybe they are trying to offer the passengers that have been let down
by BMIBABY a chance to get to where they want to go !

[Little Blue]

Yeah,,,,,of course they do. :ugh:

[xtypeman]

I have been reading this thread for the past couple of weeks. But let us all put this into context. I am sorry that there will be some redundancies what ever system is used it will be unfair. A case of not being able to please all of the people all of the time. But please spare a thought of those people at EAAC and Flightline none of them have a job now at least the majority at BHX and the other bases still have a job.

Ps i do not work for any of the airlines mentioned but have suffered redundancy in the past and perversly i was meant to have a position at a start up using EAAC a/c in West Africa

[fokker]

To all of you facing the axe: good luck, something will come up.:ok:

FWIW LIFO looks like the only straightforward and transparent way to do this - it's what happened in mainline in 2001 and anything else is open to all sorts of potential abuse.

Hudson - I pity the next outfit to suffer from your self-centred, under-talented mediocrity. Just PLEASE don't apply to come back. We're fine without you.:rolleyes:

[Topslide6]

This made me laugh. Was just looking back through some of HB's posts as i've nothing better to do :{ and found this little jem:

HB showing commendable consistency (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/201622-ba-a320.html)

Don't wait. Take it straight away. Seniority is king.

:rolleyes:

[POLICE]

Hudson,

Gosh you must be so good, since you believe it so much.
I wish I was you - young, agressive, despise authority, probably a James Bond lookalike.
But none of these will help you, as you are on your way out.
I for one will not be missing you.
Good riddance pal!

[pint'alfempty]

Hudson,

We know who you are. Quite simply you are insignificant and do not merit further comment.

[Dog E. Stile]

Notwithstanding the bad news that some folks are likely to be losing their jobs involuntarily, what is truly saddening is the 'mob mentality' which seems to be prevalent on this thread, and probably within much of the company.

So someone expresses an opinion which is at odds with the 'majority' view, not necessarily offensive but perhaps understandable considering the anxiety and fear for one's own mortgage/family/Christmas etc. facing the potential redundant person. The last few pages have increasing been along the lines of 'I hope I never fly with you', 'we know who you are', 'I hope you get the sack' etc etc, all the while insisting on the need for unity.

You should be ashamed.

[SR71]

Doggy,

Problem is, he hasn't advanced any meritorious reasons for his opinion, and he is, by all accounts, inconsistent.

As such, it appears his vitriole betrays a more sinister motive...which isn't really helpful at this point in time.

Whad'ya expect if you yank the tiger's tail?

He certainly hasn't studied his NOTECHS document though has he?

;)

[Planter]

Hey Dog E -

You are entitled to your opinion like everyone else is.
The guy Hudson is an :mad: and defending his mental illness is
quite mental in itself in my opinion, he's even dangerous I'd say.
The thrust of this thread is how the company may have lost sound judgement about whom to dismiss/keep on, so your defence of the :mad: is not particularly appreciated right now.
Maybe later - one day, not now!

P

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I agree, Dog E.Stile - This is getting into a 'PAF' = Personal Attacking Forum.

Posters should, Just accept what views other Posters have, And not take it Personal.

I have also been under 'Personal' attack in another Thread!!

Back to WW, Think it was a bit 'Sly' of FR to launch the advert into the public theatre?

[apron]

Other posters have their right to post what ever they please. If they should personally attack more senior pilots by referring to them as fossils and that all ex British Midland pilots and trainers should be up for the chop then they will raise an eyebrow..or 2!

If they were not in agreement with the collective agreement that the company had approved with BALPA then perhaps they should have considered this BEFORE they joined.

This is not a time to play Devils Advocate...there are people within the drop zone that the collective agreement states that are quite rightly very worried and perhaps are trying to improve any offer of redundancy that may come.

The Devils Advocate amongst us that, may I say has upset a vast majority of the work force, has no reson to for the purpose of seniority..they are safe! But maybe it suits them if pilots above them were to move on.....command potential and they would be more senior? I suggest that maybe now it is time to support our pilots....hard times ahead. Good luck

[OliWW]

At the end of October, booked to go to Menorca from EMA with TCX and for 4 people it cost around £1,250 and now, bmibaby are offering it for £520 for 4 people, I am so frustrated... I hope the route goes well for them though :ok:

[Businesstraveller]

I commute every week from BHX to EDI and have done for 3 years now. One aspect I've found regretable is that all ground handling services are contracted out, such that it's difficult to speak to staff at the airport and there's often an attitude of 'couldn't care less' that pervades all dealings. I compare this to the attitude and service received when I used to fly this route regularly with BA then BA Connect. However, this is an industry wide issue and even BA doesn't have in-house ground staff outside London now.
With regard to many people's comments on punctuality, whislst some flights have been delayed for no seemingly good reason (or none given anyway), I find that most flights arrive within 15 minutes of the published times. To my mind this is fair enough and I don't have a great problem with it. There's often a general problem at BHX on Monday mornings with congestion in the sul-de-sac at Terminal 1. Unfortunately as the BMIBaby stands are furthest from the runway it suffers more than other airlines using Terminal 1 (Lufthansa, Monarch etc).
With regard to on-board service, with few exceptions I've found BMIBaby staff to be polite, helpful and good humoured. I notice that people's service is often proportionate to the attitude they bring on-board (i.e. snotty passengers won't see the best side of a steward(ess) - am I still allowed to say 'steward(ess)' these days? I do sometimes wish the on-board staff could get together and agree what the rules are regarding mobile phones/blackberrys/flight-safe mode - announcments vary between anything goes if its in flight-safe mode up to everthing is vorboten at all times.
In recent weeks I've noticed a number of on-board staff happily passing frank views to customers regarding the company and it's position - interesting stuff. All in all though I hope BMIBaby continues to flurish and maintain a sizable hub in BHX and other UK locations. It derserves to on its own merits.

[frontcheck]

The ground handling at EDI is contracted to bmi and this is where the main problem is. The staff are trained to bmi standard but baby have their own set of rules which they ensure are enforced to the letter, therefore where staff are allowed to use discretion when delaing with a bmi situation, when it comes to baby, they are told EXACTLy what they can and cant do and if any decisions are made to the contrary they better be prepared for a backlash. The couldnt care less attitude comes from the rules being changed on a regular basis and taking fees for everything from check-in to excess, the job is like being a debt collector these days. Just wait till you hear what they want to happen next whilst boarding 140 pax in a 25 min turnround !

[lexxity]

Just wait till you hear what they want to happen next whilst boarding 140 pax in a 25 min turnround !


Do you mean the screening of handbaggage at the gate, checking in thereof and taking money for same?

It's already going on at MAN. Same situation there bmi staff checking in baby. No discretion, no rule bending, drives me mad!

[Skipness One Echo]

Can we expand on what is meant bythe screening of handbaggage at the gate, checking in thereof and taking money for same?

Thanks

[Businesstraveller]

Great example of the descretion operated by BMI and not BMIBaby is that at EDI the check-in staff will give anyone the extra leg-room seats - as long as they aren't already booked. But if you're at BHX or onboard hell will freeze over before the BMIBaby staff or Aviance allow you to have an extra leg-room seat unless you've paid extra.

[flyer2308]

I do sometimes wish the on-board staff could get together and agree what the rules are regarding mobile phones/blackberrys/flight-safe mode - announcments vary between anything goes if its in flight-safe mode up to everthing is vorboten at all times.

I'm a CM for baby at EMA and here are the official rules regarding the above.

Mobile phone ok to use unitl doors closed then totally switched off, not to be used in flight mode at all! also shouldnt be used when walking from/to aircraft/terminal via the ramp (i.e no airbridges as at EMA)

Blackberrys as above however ok to use only in flight mode and only when seat belt sign switched off! (when sign is on it must be completely switched off)

I hope that clears up what we SHOULD be doing at baby. i know some crew think they can make up their own rules when it suits! :rolleyes: :ugh:

[brian_dromey]

Mobile phone ok to use unitl doors closed then totally switched off, not to be used in flight mode at all! also shouldnt be used when walking from/to aircraft/terminal via the ramp (i.e no airbridges as at EMA)

Blackberrys as above however ok to use only in flight mode and only when seat belt sign switched off! (when sign is on it must be completely switched off)

Just for clarification is that exclusively Blackberries or are other smart-phone devices allowed to be used as well? Any of the Nokia N series phones or the iPhone, several Samsung and SonyErricsson devices,etc have the same functionality as a Blackberry and similar "flight safe" mode.

Brian.

[isw21]

blackberry paid to get their devices approved by the CAA, all other makes are still waiting for CAA approval

[tallseabird]

I would like to clarify something and this is not aimed at BMIBaby

Regarding the comment "also shouldnt be used when walking from/to aircraft/terminal via the ramp". Does this apply to engineers, pilots and other ground staff or is it a rule for passengers only?

I have seen numerous staff members using mobile phones

[jerboy]

Regarding the comment "also shouldnt be used when walking from/to aircraft/terminal via the ramp". Does this apply to engineers, pilots and other ground staff or is it a rule for passengers only?

At most airports officially no one is allowed to use mobiles whilst out on the ramp. The main reason I've been told is due to the risk of a 'spark' from the phone igniting fuel vapor from the tankers etc... I mean honestly, with hundreds of electronic devices and engines running out there you'd think airports would be blowing up every day.

There may also be some elements of 'keeping your mind on the job' about it, the ramp can be a dangerous place. But to be honest no one's that fussed.

I'll use my phone for work purposes whilst I'm out there only.

[bruppy]

Great example of the descretion operated by BMI and not BMIBaby is that at EDI the check-in staff will give anyone the extra leg-room seats - as long as they aren't already booked. But if you're at BHX or onboard hell will freeze over before the BMIBaby staff or Aviance allow you to have an extra leg-room seat unless you've paid extra.


Businesstraveller, BHX operate within the rules and T & C's If our colleagues in EDI don't enforce them then that’s up to their management & the baby Stn manager, with the current financial situation every penny counts including the fee for the XLR seats, if ourselves or the crews were to allow pax to freeseat in the XLR rows no one would choose to pay for them hoping instead to get them for free, (an attitude that seems to be prevalent these days).
Simple solution - If you want the XLR seat, dig out your wallet:ok:

[frontcheck]

The staff in EDI will charge for exit seats unless there are 100 or more passengers booked on the flight, once this magical number is reached the exits have to be allocated to able bodied for safety reasons.

[mikerawsonderby]

Flew EMA-JER in Sept. At check-in we were allocated the row behind the wing exit, but because that row was empty we were asked to move forward (didn't complain).

Mike

[Centre cities]

Flew Newquay to Birmingam with 41 pax on baby a couple or so years ago and was asked to move to the emergency exit row as it was unoccupied.

[Vuelo]

Any new routes planned for 2009 on the WW network?

[airhumberside]

CWL-Menorca, direct replacement for CWL-Lisbon

[Vuelo]

Exciting stuff, then.

[Little Blue]

And the point of that, was??

[planenut321]

Not enough people booked on the Lisbon flights. Poor advertisment mainly.

[Grob Driver]

Hello,

Does anyone know why BMI have pulled out of this route? Are there any plans to re instate it? I always thought it was a popular route. It had only been going for a year. As someone who regularly traveled on it, it's a shame to see that it's now gone? Is it related to Warsaw closing the Etuda terminal and thus increasing charges on the low cost operators forced to use the main terminal?

Regards
GD

[planenut321]

They did the same from CWL. Many airlines seem to be pulling out of Poland such as EZY. But i am not sure why?

[Charlie Roy]

Is it related to Warsaw closing the Etuda terminal and thus increasing charges on the low cost operators forced to use the main terminal?

I imagine that was indeed the catalyst.
It'll be interesting to compare Warsaw's passenger statistics from 2008 and 2009.

[wawkrk]

(Many airlines seem to be pulling out of Poland such as EZY. But i am not sure why? )

Simple really, pax in both directions have dramatically declined.
I suspect the global recession may have something to do with it.

[planenut321]

I don't think its quite that. The loads on the Cardiff's WW flights were in the 80's and same for EZY.

[davidjohnson6]

A few years ago, the economy of Poland, Czech + Slovak Republics and the Baltics was looking decidedly shaky while the UK and Ireland were booming. Cue lots of people to leave Central Europe and get jobs further west. Of course, with over a million people in the UK and Ireland, there was plenty of demand for transport between Poland and the UK for visiting friends and relatives.

Now that the economy of the UK is looking dire and the zloty is much stronger compared to the pound, it makes economic sense for a lot of people to return to Poland. With fewer families split between the UK and Poland, there is less demand for air transport between the 2 countries.

[OltonPete]

As for bhx baby flights, they carried 70-85% loads most of the year and FR's BHX loads to Poland (other than SZZ) have been very good.

However, the big problem is.................. the fares charged - absolutely unsustainable for most airlines and no surprise that all baby's routes have gone (as with DY WAW & NE KRK/BTS from BHX). Even FR appear to have dropped BHX-SZZ after March, which ony started in November.

If oil had stayed at $147 I doubt bhx would have many if any Polish routes despite the fact there is still pax out there wanting to travel.

Pete

[bounty78]

does anyone know what is happening with BMIbaby in the winter 2009?
When you go on the flybmi website and put in some bmibaby routes it states i.e MAN-BFS a blue box comes up and says will cease 24oct 2009, the same thing happens with routes from EMA.....very odd

[mathers_wales_uk]

I am sure that you have heared that LH has purchased BMI including BmiRegional and Baby. Depending on what LH plan to do with Baby i'm guessing they will not upload the winter flights until a decision has been made.

I believe the deal will go though Feb/March after the origional date of January.

[airnoc]

What the story on Glasgow route from Knock seem not bookable from end of march?http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

[bmi expat]

Winter 09 will not be released for sale at least until probably March as is the case in past years. The fact that flights are not on sale yet has nothing to do with the LH takeover.

[OliWW]

I dont think it will be that early really, if LH dont take over until like February or March, then they will need to plan everything out. It might even be as late as June.

[INKJET]

bmi to freeze pay for 2009:sad:


Luffty have also been told that approval for their takeover of SN Brussells could take until June, i can see the bmi take over meeting similar challenges, could be a while afore we get Merc vans!!:(

[scrapy]

I dont think the Lufthansa takeover will delay winter flights going on sale. If they decide at a later date not to operate the flights then they will cancel/amend them 'for operational reasons'.

Is Lufthansa want to offload baby they will still sell flights rather than lose business to competitors and lower the value of the business.

[flowy50]

A bit confused almeria showing on bmibaby search engine from cardiff 2 flights a week anyone able to comment.

[Charlie Roy]

Cardiff - Almeria is a new route (announced today).
Also: Birmingham - Newquay

[uncovered]

Baby giving up GLA and AMS for Almeria. Sensible move by TinyTown, good news for Flybe.

[mikerawsonderby]

Cardiff to Almeria 'replaces' Glasgow and Amsterdam, Birmingham to Newquay 'replaces' Cork - I hope they don't announce any new flights from EMA!!

[OliWW]

Why dont you want them to expand at EMA?

[mathers_wales_uk]

A very good decision in my opinion and maybe good news all round at CWL at least.

Very suprised the GLA route didn't go sooner. I am suprised that AMS has been axed and not BFS.

[Copenhagen]

With Almeria being a very strong seasonal route, where will Baby fly this winter.

Will baby fly this winter??? :ugh:

[OliWW]

Grenoble, Lyon, Salzburg, Zurich, Geneva, Turin, More winter sun routes, Malaga, Alicante...

[plus7g]

OliW : where did you find the Salzburg dest ? from where ? I need to fly to Salz in March and its not on www.BMIbaby.com (http://www.BMIbaby.com) website ? tx

[OliWW]

No i was listing where bmibaby could fly as Almeria is only a summer route, for the winter bmibaby should be considering some of those routes, im not sure of any plans for any of them.

Thomson, Thomas Cook - Manchester to salzburg
Jet2 - Leeds Bradford - salzburg spring into mind

[ryan2000]

Reports from Cork indicate that EI are gaining market share on ORK MAN. Also it seems that reports of WW's withdrawal from ORK BHX became widely known at Cork Airport before management were officialy informed. This was a result of the Prune posting last weekend.

[brian_dromey]

WW have no one to blame but themselves. Knackered aircraft, horrible schedules, appalling timekeeping, pretty cheap and nasty on board (although the crew do the best with what they have to work with) AND they are not that cheap to fly with. No wonder they are loosing market share.

Brian.

[INKJET]

Cork is in Euro land and has seen a weekening of demand from UK pax, conversley ORK-BHX is a cheap shopping trip for Irish nationals, who will tend to favour Aer Lingus all thing beeing equal.

NQY is likely to bring a better return

LEI is popular from EMA so it probably makes more sense than AMS for the summer sun routes and all the bagage revenue for CWL

The Summer program is set now bar a few tweeks here and there.

Winter program phase one will be out in 8-10 weeks

[INKJET]

One has to work with the tools that you are given at least for now, the group have had other priorities and the pot is only so big (small in fact) the aircraft are far from knackered, but they tried to do to much with to few aircraft in the past and paid the price, very few delays the last few months other than weather and ORK was only CAT1 for baby as CAT2/3 are autolands and baby can't do them in ORK due to the terrain.

[Tom the Tenor]

Let us hope that bmi baby tough it out on Manchester - Cork again for the summer. It would be sad to see the airline leave as they have tried nearly everything to Cork down the years. Aside from FR they were the first sort of traditional loco to fly to Cork and that was from EMA. Manchester was to follow along with shots at Cardiff, Durham Tees Valley and Gatwick and more recently a brave shot on Birmingham.

The bmi baby crews are to be admired with the equipment they have had to work with down the years at Cork and even though some the airframes are getting on a bit they still got on with the job safely and comfortably as they could for the passengers. Delays may always happen when there are so few aeroplanes available compared to the likes of FR, EZY and even EI so whilst the inconvenience to passengers is regretable at least with a smaller airline you can understand how delays can occur.

What is not so readily acceptable is why bmi baby has never got on with it and got their aeroplanes up to CATII capability for Cork. Terrain this and that on the runway 17 threshold Cork is just not good enough an excuse. It has never been a problem for Aer Lingus, Ryanair and easyJet at Cork but even much more than that it was never a problem for classic 737 airlines such as CSA Czech Airlines and UK airlines such as Thomsonfly and Titan Airways. I seem to recall that not long after Thomsonfly started Coventry - Cork they sent an empty aeroplane over to Cork one dark evening to conduct a series of practice CATII approaches at Cork. Now, it fails me why bmi baby could not have done the same for their far more substantial operation to Cork at the time.

[INKJET]

If i remember correctly they did look at manual Cat 2 landings, but after various sim problems it was felt not worth while training crews in a one off technique that varried with the normal Cat 2 (autoland) procedure for the few occasions when a divert would be required. Other operators may have diffrent procedures.

[AboveMSA]

Out of interest, what was the final method used in deciding bmibaby pilot redundancies at BHX? LIFO?

[FlyboyUK]

No LIFO wasn't used. They ignored the contract (which clearly stated LIFO) and the redundancies were made via a points system which included length of service. Most of the crew were from BHX with a handful of EMA crew.:ugh:

[Paper Lad]

What, if anything, did BALPA have to say about the 'points system'? Is there an on-going dispute, or is it now accepted that LIFO is now not used for redundancy, irrespective of what is set out in your contract.

This will have a wide ranging impact on the whole of our industry, particularly in the current climate where the threat of redundancy is becoming very widespread.

PL

[Skipness One Echo]

They ignored the contract A business just can't ignore a legally binding agreement so the question becomes why did they take the path that they did?

[Vuelo]

When will WW scrap those ancient crap old 733s and buy some new a/c?

[Cloud1]

Probably the same time you, Vuelo, stop posting such cutting comments (as you have done on other threads)

[Mister Geezer]

A business just can't ignore a legally binding agreement so the question becomes why did they take the path that they did?

Nowadays a company cannot just use length of service as a filter for selecting the staff who are to be made redundant. This conflicted with what was previously agreed with BALPA etc.

I am sure someone from baby will be able to give us a more in depth insight.

[Topslide6]

They're not ancient crap or old. They're just overworked although slowly but surely they're all getting spruced up. Not before time I may add.

If you look at the average age of the fleet it compres very well with the majority of other 737 efis operators, and is considerably younger than Jet2's fleet. These aircraft are relatively cheap to lease and getting rid of them right now would be a pretty daft thing to do. That's not to say we wouldn't all climb the Eiffel Tower on the outside without a harness to get some newer aircraft but now, as I said, is probably not the time.

[brian_dromey]

I think the aircraft are generally what you might describe as "tatty" and "overworked". The problem is that WW often schedules these older aircraft as if they are fresh out of the box from Boeing, which they are not and it just does not work. The whole thing has been made worse by the different seating in each aircraft and a general air of neglect in the paintwork and cabin. I think it gives the impression that WW (rightly or wrongly) is a fly by night operator.

Brian.

[caaardiff]

The whole thing has been made worse by the different seating in each aircraft and a general air of neglect in the paintwork and cabin

I thought some of the aircraft, not just the newer ones to the fleet, had been repainted? With an ongoing schedule to eventually do the whole fleet?

[SR71]

A business just can't ignore a legally binding agreement...

Has someone told O'Leary that?

:p

A company can do what they want if they think no-one is going to do anything about it...

Might even be cheaper...

:E

[Vuelo]

Probably the same time you, Vuelo, stop posting such cutting comments (as you have done on other threads)

Get you, dear.

[Topslide6]

Like I said, slowly but surely they're getting spruced up. By that I mean re-painted in the 'new' livery and fitted out with leather seats so caaardiff is correct.

The whole thing has been made worse by the different seating in each aircraft...

That's down to the 'contracted out' check in staff getting it wrong, which they do too often imho.

[frontcheck]

It has nothing to do with the gound staff "getting it wrong" it because we often get told with minimal notice of an aircraft change and as has been said before, because the configs are different it leads to multiple seat changes at last minute. There have even been instances of customers paying extra for exit seats that do not exist on the actual aircraft operating the flight, how can you take money from someone if you are not sure if the actual seat exists?
When seat changes happen it is often passengers who check-in online and have only hand baggage therefore the changes have to be done at gate during a 25 mn turnround...not as straight forward as you might think!

[TLBird]

Anyway getting back to the question of Balpas agreement with Baby ....
Bascally the company have ignored it and said they they would not be taking notice of a weasly worded contract by balpa they would be doing it the legal way!
Even though this agreement was checked agreed and signed by the same department that said that.

Both parties think legally they are right.

Now the redundancies have been made they actually want someone to take them to court so they wont have the same long drawn out arguements next time.

The redundancies were made at the bases they chose in the first place and not throughout as it would be if it was proper LIFO.

~It was a sort of lifo at base with other criteria, Balpa did not agree.

[CheekyVisual]

At risk of opening can of worms !!! There is no such thing as a legally binding contract. Any lawyer will tell you that !!!! If what is stated in a contract is no longer acceptable under the laws or legal precidents of the country in which the contract was signed or is applicable. i.e. company lawyers say that straight LIFO can no longer be implemented no matter what the contract says because the law and legal precident has changed since it was written. If that wasn't the case I'm sure FR would have a clause for public floggings in there ! The company claim they told BALPA LIFO couldn't go in the new agreement at the time the playground rules were changed and BALPA offered nothing to replace it. If BALPA could really prove the company were acting illegally they should have slapped an injunction on them on day one in November when the company stated LIFO was not going to be used. The fact they didn't and still haven't should set alarm bells ringing around a lot of airlines.

[TLBird]

Well its a messy situation and of little comfort to the guys and girls who thought that the companys signed agreement would stand. Now unemployed and with many other pilots struggling to find work.

I wish them the best of luck.

[SR71]

CheekyVisual,

I'm no lawyer, but if the pilots have signed the contract, are they deemed to have agreed with it?

If so, even if the law has changed, haven't they agreed to the variation, whereupon LIFO should stand?

It is only a problem if pilots, who were quite happy with LIFO when they signed the document, now somewhat unscrupulously decide to contest it, because they've lost their job.

The waters are muddied in this case though because pilots who shouldn't have lost their job according to LIFO, now have...

Anyway, wasn't the legislation brought in by a corrupt peer?

:E

[excrab]

Cheeky visual,

If, as the company claimed, they told Balpa that LIFO couldn't go into the new agreement why would they then allow the flight operations director to sign it.

He didn't sign it just because he felt like it, he signed it on behalf of the company and presumably after the document had been checked by the BMI HR and legal departments.

[apron]

There appears to be alot of noises coming from a tread in T+C's from the bmi pilots quite rightly looking at legal action with reference to their 3 year paydeal being revoked. (in an appauling fashion I must say)

What about the bmibaby lot??? Not heard too much except from an email that everyone received from NT. Maybe if 'we' make some more pilots redundant they will honour the bmi payrise :ugh:

What a mess...:(

[TLBird]

Just because you donnot know about something does not mean it is not happening:=

[AboveMSA]

~It was a sort of lifo at base with other criteria, Balpa did not agree.

What were the details of the other criteria?

[jethro15]

Is anyone aware of any forthcoming end of lease retirements from the Baby fleet?

jethro
jethro's UK and Ireland Airline Fleet Listings (http://www.jethros.eu)

[aidoair]

Will that not leave baby with not enough aircraft for the summer routes or is the operation planned with 18 aircraft? Will they leasing two Airbus from mainline again for the summer?

[CheekyVisual]

Everyone suggested that the summer programme was worked out for the aircraft remaining after the winter handbacks, that was before the unexpected high demand for med routes materialised. However, with the additional routes and rotations I wouldn't mind betting we'll see big brother "helping us out" over the summer especially when the inevitable tech problems start. If it happens it will no doubt mean a further reduction at baby next winter as crews and aircraft (costs) are more easily cut and then replaced on a "helping you out basis" by mainline again next summer. It looks like the plan from where I am uncomfortably sitting that the baby management have lost control of the company, that's if they ever had much anyway.

[anoxic]

It looks like the plan from where I am uncomfortably sitting that the baby management have lost control of the company, that's if they ever had much anyway

Don't for a moment think that it's any better in mainline!

[The late XV105]

WW have no one to blame but themselves. Knackered aircraft, horrible schedules, appalling timekeeping, pretty cheap and nasty on board (although the crew do the best with what they have to work with) AND they are not that cheap to fly with. No wonder they are loosing market share.

Brian

Yup; out of my last three return sectors with bmibaby, all PRG-BHX, one had a very long delay and the other two were cancelled (one completely, leaving me high and dry to find my own way home and the other with a replacement non scheduled service bearing different WW identifier the next day). All three were tech and all three generated dreadful customer "service" using Menzies - their local ground handling agent in lieu of actual representation - to hide behind and nothing but standard format "bog off per EU terms and conditions" letters when followed up later.

I have now voted with my feet and have no intention of returning either personally or for the many Czech family flights I book each year.

Also with respect to losing market share, over the past few weeks I have been nothing short of spammed by WW marketing and special offers; the last time this happened was with Speed Ferries just before their news broke...

[Businesstraveller]

I notice that once again WW are about to move to their distinctly unappealing summer schedule. As it stands I'm having to travel with Flybe on Saturday because WW don't operate a service on Saturday. Then the Friday afternoon (16:55) EDI-BHX flight is about to morph into an evening flight (19:15). Most the people on this flight are commuters of one sort or another who (like me) won't appreciate arriving home at the end of the evening on a Friday. I for one will be voting with my feet and joining a busier Flybe flight at a far better time. Oh for the days of BA/BA Connect....

[OltonPete]

Businesstraveller

Only guessing to a certain extent but the problem with operating two
flights a day the 1500 (as it was) was far too early as a last northbound.

This has recently changed to 16.00/16.30 but still a little early for day
returns from EDI.

The pax figures suffered and now that there will be only four based
aircraft from the end of the month running a tight schedule they
have needed to tweak the timings of some flights and certainly EDI
is not great.

Could EDI, GLA and BFS end up as Regional like the Aberdeen?

Pete

[airnoc]

See Bmibaby in gone from noc to glasgow route. If they d'ont watch the noc to man & Bhx route they will be gone as time keeping and canceling of route pax will and do fly gwy to man and bhx on shannon route so get up or get out

[Businesstraveller]

'Could EDI, GLA and BFS end up as Regional like the Aberdeen?'

Now if the Baby routes from BHX became BMI Regional like Aberdeen is about to become, that would be great. It would go some way to replacing the loss of a proper domestic carrier when BA/BA Connect pulled out of BHX. I won't hold my breath though.

[polkadotwellies]

Can anyone shed any light on BMIBaby cancelling the Cardiff to Almeria route May-Oct09.

I have telephoned them today and they have confirmed that they will not be operating the routes and have stopped selling any more tickets, but they insist that I will be travelling.

Are they going to try and fob me off with another destination - Malaga, a 3 and a half hour drive away or Alicante a 4 and a half hour drive away? Neither of which I want!

Or can I be optimistic and hope that they are going to charter a private jet for me and my family :D !!!!!!!

[Envoy320]

i would ring them and ask who is operating the route....

If they insist that you are travelling on the route, the contract must be in place for the operation of the route and they should advise you how you are getting there....

If they can't tell you, i wouldn't trust that you are going if i'm honest!!

[WATABENCH]

SHOCKER !! :cool:

[OliWW]

Its not available on their website anymore either :(

If you are looking for an alternative
Ryanair - STN
easyJet - LGW
Monarch - BHX, MAN

[SAM-EMA]

WW might just re-allocate you on an EMA - Almeria flight.

SAM-EMA

[brumboy]

Airport to airport:

Malaga - Almeria 2.75 hours (will be even quicker when they complete the motorway)
Alicante - Almeria 3.25 hours

Don't forget
Murcia - Almeria 3 hours

I have driven these routes many times when there are no, or no suitable Birmingham - Almeria flights!

Bet Baby offer you East Midlands - Almeria!

[jerhippo]

looks like WW are going to be operating a few new routes, it shows on the Air DB as

CWL-DUB
DUB-EDI
EDI-FCO


interesting....

[8028410q]

DUB-EDI and EDI-FCO sound stupid to me, taking on FR on their home turf.. CWL-DUB is a good move though.

8028410q

[airhumberside]

Where these flights operated for the Six Nations rugby that have crept back into the system?

[mathers_wales_uk]

Bmibaby never operated such flight from Cardiff for the 6 nations but they may had seen the extra flights offered into BRS by Ryanair and by Dublin at CWL and thought they would give it a shot, Similar to what they have done on the BFS?

[8028410q]

Here is the link (http://www.bmibaby.com/bmibaby/en/index.aspx?p=43&cf=news&ID=428)

8028410q

[GayFriendly]

So they're planning to be around until at least 2010 then ;)

Perhaps this is the direction the airline will head for in the future, reduced focus on scheduled operations and more focus on ad-hoc charters, flying for tour operators and contract work, didn't Aer Arann recently go down this road? I'm not so sure though that their tired fleet is particularly suited to such work without internal refits though

[INKJET]

I'm not so sure though that their tired fleet is particularly suited to such work without internal refits though


Gayfriendly

You clearly haven't been on a baby aircraft for some time then? but i do agree that they are a bit long in the tooth for 3rd party charters, i think you will see more ad hoc sports flights like the MAN Oporto last week.

[mathers_wales_uk]

It's a very good idea and i think the amount of extra revenue they picked up in this years 6 nations flights due to their new t & c's and charges they have decided to make the most of it. I hope that these are on top of the extra flights usually operated to during these days.

[GayFriendly]

Inkjet,

To be fair no I haven't been on a Baby flight since last summer, July 2008 - flew BHX-MAD on an internally tatty and quite dirty aircraft, they have been refitting their fleet since then I take it?

Good luck to Baby if they go down the 3rd party charter route, with the right aircraft and product this could be a good moneyspinner, I think Titan do quite well out of this line of work?

[sweetie76]

I think you'll find Titan is going to have problems this year when you have the likes of bmi mainline entering the charter market and effectively undercutting them. Titan ain't cheap, when it comes to AOG/ad hoc etc.

I think airlines will have to be pretty desperate before they call the likes of Titan for assistance.

[xtypeman]

Thats why they call Titan and the likes when its desperate. Also dont forget that there are three airlines out of the system compared to last year. XL, EAAC and Flightline. There is also a culture shock from operating a schedule service to being up and ready to operate in an hour. I think you will find Titan have a good mix on there flying.

Sorry getting away from Baby.

[Businesstraveller]

I fly on BMI Baby pretty much every week. Some interiors are fairly decent (leatherette upholstery) but most are pretty tired (are they old Britannia interiors?). Last week I was on the front row at 2A - next to 2B which had its seat base missing - how bad does that look to all the boarding PAXs? Oh, and to add to the quality experience the inside casing for my window fell out - classy! :ok:

[INKJET]

Sorry to hear about the seat base, the cabins on most have been refitted over the winter together with new paint and larger logo, the fact remains that they aren't spring chickens and the number of cabin defects reflect that. They start off OK but the hammer and abuse that they get takes its toll, some of our fleet will carry over 750 pax a day each and they aren't all size 10's

[iwhak]

Happened to travel from BHX to NOC recently on a Friday was about 50 pax on board. Had a look at the CAA stats for January through to March, MAN & BHX to NOC down between 30 & 50%. They must be losing their shirts on these routes. Is this symptomatic of their overall network?

[Little Blue]

In a word , NO !
:ok:

[OltonPete]

iwhak

I am not sure where you are getting the load factors from for the BHX-Knock service.

March CAA Stats show 3295 pax. If this is divided by the number of sectors which was 38 (I noted all BHX's daily departures down to work out average pax per flight). My figure has tallied with acarsd with 26 sectors operated by the 733 and 12 by the 735.

I make it an average of 87 per flight and a load factor of 60%.

February was worse at 67 per flight and about 50% load factor

January was 61 per flight or 43% load factor.

It is not great and possibly Baby's worse peforming route from
BHX and I would say if there was another a route to go it would
be Knock but having said that they have released seats for sale
next winter.

Pete

[freightdoggy dog]

Sweetie 76, have you ever flown on board a Titan 737 vip a/c on a charter ?

The interiors,service and catering are in a different league to what Baby could offer. They may be expensive ,but thats the market they are pitching at.

[INKJET]

Titan's VIP interior is very plush and works well for corporate charters, but with only 131 seats on 737-300 the cost per seat is much higher than Jet2 or bmibaby config of 148 (737-300) or 131 (bmibaby 737-500) on a corporate charter it doesn't matter because in most cases you won't have more than 80-100 guests anyway, but going down to the Med or winter ski charter these flights are often fully booked, even if they don't all turn up!

[iwhak]

Olton Pete

Had you read my post I never referred to load factors. I travelled on the route, load was very poor. Looked at the CAA stats and year on year it is way down. I've no axe to grind, just asking the question. Appreciate you looking deeper into it thanks!

[OltonPete]

iwhak

Sorry, I see where you are coming from.

However part of the reason for the drop is that baby have been
operating between 10-20 less sectors per month per the punctuality
stats but you are right it is still in freefall.

60 services operated in March 08 compared to 38 this year. Even without
the Easter pax in this years figures it is still about 15% drop in load factor.

January was less of a drop from 50% to 43% load factor but still not
good as fares were low.

In fact the load you have described is awful for Friday, one route to watch.

Pete

[sawtooth]

Big drop from the days when MyTravelLite carried 100K on the route with an A320. But there was a lot less capacity into the North of England in 2003, and I guess Ryanair's EMA route has eaten into the numbers.

[OliWW]

Since about 2003 roughly EMA has always had a NOC route, bmibaby operated it, and FR now operate, so either way, there has been flights from EMA and BHX has been able to still expand on that, My travel lite probably got 100K because there was no NOC flight for about a year at EMA before FR took over.

[danielsirrom]

Sorry if this is turning into a Knock thread, but we travel once or twice a year from the Midlands to the west of Ireland to visit family. Up until 5 years ago we always went by ferry with the car. I then realised we could travel by air into Knock and hire a car and save money. This is what we've done since.

However we visited at Easter and the cheapest airfare I could find was £500(all in) for 5 returns (looked from Bristol, Luton, Birmingham and E Mids), plus car hire. The fast ferry was £200 return (car and 5 passengers), so that is how we travelled. Now I know that £500 (£100/head) is not a bad fare but we have been spoilt by years of paying £50 to £150 for all 5 of us.

Anecdotal I know but the airlines have to remember that the ferry option is still there. Door to door journey times are 6 hours when flying, 9 hours when driving...not too different.

Dan

[Techman5]

I see Baby have just dropped their Cardiff to Almeria route for this summer. Does this represent a reduction in the number of 'planes at Cardiff?

[Techman5]

I have tried driving from Malaga to Almeria and wouldn't recommend it - The journey seems to last forever, and the time is not that predictable, so you end up in the airport for ages on the way home.

Murcia to Almeria is much more realistic. I think it takes exactly 2 hours if you use the new toll motorway (€13 each way). Alicante is another 60km or so from Murcia, so add another 0.75 hours.

Put it this way, if the options are local UK airport to Murcia or STN/LGW to Almeria, I would chose the former, and do the 2 hour drive in Spain rather than on the M25. Of course, its even less if your final destination is Vera or Mojacar.

Its also worth bearing in mind that it takes half the time to clear the smaller airports of Almeria/Murcia than the larger ones, and the same is true in the UK, with BHX/EMA being twice as quick as LGW/STN.

[Little Blue]

Once more, in a word.
NO !! :ok:

[Musket90]

I have driven regularly to Vera/Mojcar area from LEI, ALC and MJV airports and although LEI is the most convenient (50 mins or so) ALC or MJV are a good alternative as the motorway driving is so much easier than UK.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I heard something in the region of added FAO flights if im not mistaken?

[er340790]

Long-term fears over bmibaby’s victory - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/columnists/article6201802.ece)

[MUFC_fan]

U2 should take the idiotic contract they have with LPL to court. They would make the costs back very quickly on the more profitable routes from MAN.

How stupid is it that GB's biggest airline is being held by an airport carrying barely 5m passengers a year?! U2 does that in less than 2 months!

[davidjohnson6]

MUFC - how is the contract between EZY and LPL idiotic ?

Easyjet / Stelios were not some kind of naive bumbling innocents when they signed up with LPL - (expensive) lawyers would have been consulted prior to making big commitments. EZY may now regret what they signed..... but they cannot claim not to have understood what they were getting into.

[MUFC_fan]

The Competition Commission in the UK strive for competitive behaviour. This is what allows us to buy things so cheap (Asda v Tesco for example). By U2 and LPL signing this contract it takes away U2's ability to compete across the North West.

No company should be confined to one 'work place'

[davidjohnson6]

EZY are a big company with ample legal resources - they can look after themselves. If they want to get out of the contract and think they have a case to argue, they will be able to put up a fight unaided. If they want to lobby the CAA / Dept of Transport / Dept of Trade + Industry / other regulatory bodies, I'm sure they have the ability to do so.

If the contract is unfair - then they can go to court and get the lawyers involved. If the contract is fair - then it's up to EZY to find a way to resolve it.

Alternatively - it may be that EZY have decided that their corporate resources are best utilised in other parts of Europe - such as France and Italy and that Manchester can take a back seat for the time being.

[dwlpl]

It should be remembered that this contract was renegotiated, as a consequence the ninth based aircraft arrive at Liverpool in about one months time.

Easyjets Liverpool base has to be very profitable otherwise it would not continue to add to its base.

[mickyman]

MUFC FAN

So you think that contracts signed can be torn-up when
you want them to be?

This basic idea of a 'paper' promise has worked for 100's
of years and now you think its a bad thing - it should be
thrown away!

Easyjet were pleased with the 'deal' they struck - all them
years ago - clearly.MAN was turning its nose up at them in
them days - and now that MAN is desperate for business
its convenient for you to ignore the contract.

I would not trust you in a business sense or for that matter
personal sense - too much like the footballers of today - fake.

MM

[globetrotter79]

As we know, these deals are widespread across Europe...not just the Peel Airports group!

Furthermore, as has already been commented, generally both sides now involve lawyers to the nth degree to ensure they fully understand what they are getting themselves into - I cannot believe that this doesn't also include a consideration for any possible anti-competitive behaviour.

I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't, in fact, the case that the LPL-EZY deal has no wording whatsoever to the fact that they must limit their operations at MAN or elsewhere in the North-West as this would clearly be deemed anti-competitive. After all, the two biggest players at LPL, easyJet and Ryanair, now both have reasonably substantial operations also at Manchester....so I don't really see where any sort of anti-competitive hint comes into play here?!
It is very likely the case that any agreement includes waivers or discounts off standard fees and charges on the basis that the operating carriers achieve certain volumes or growth rates. In other words a positive spin on carrier growth at the airport in question rather than a negative against any other nearby airport facility.

What is perhaps more interesting, is that whilst Peel have been happy to fight the fight against BMIbaby regarding Teesside, one assumes that a similar deal to that discussed here will be in place with Ryanair. Given that Ryanair have cut back substantially on routes from all Peel Airports (whole aircraft out of LPL, and the historically year-round MME-DUB and DSA-DUB daily routes), Peel have kept very quiet about this.
One wonders whether a compromise has been reached with Ryanair or whether it is simply the case that Peel are 'over a barrel' in that they are afraid to contest the Ryanair culls on the basis that they cannot afford to lose more traffic.

[parky747]

Lets face it, there are far to many airports for a small country, they all are simply unnecessary.

As for MAN, it has 3 terminals, 2 runways, linked very well by rail services and easy accessible by road network from all areas. Why on earth do we need BLK, LPL, LBA, HUY, DSA etc when MAN is under utilised.

Surely it would be far more profitable for airlines to operate a comprehensive network for a single base.

Airlines like EZY should have a network at MAN similar to what they have ay LGW.

[davidjohnson6]

parky - shame about the desire of people living in places like Liverpool and Leeds who know of the existence of an airport near their home and would like to fly from a place convenient to them

[dwlpl]

I have an idea.

Close ALL the regional airports and build a massive new one near London after all everything, roads and rail, radiate from there anyway.

[MUFC_fan]

Lets face it, there are far to many airports for a small country, they all are simply unnecessary.


Business is business. They are all (nearly) by seperate companies and all after business.

[Ringwayman]

I wonder if easyJet consider LPL and MAN as a "joint" hub, with LPL focusing in on the short haul routes with MAN having the longer routes plus duplication of LPL routes where justified? It's going to be quite a sizeable fleet based in this "joint hub" 15 by 2010.

If you look at FR at LPL and MAN, it seems odd that most of the MAN routes don't operate to LPL - I wonder if it were be more worthwhile if they operated them out of LPL with a based aircraft (improbable given that they cut LPL's routes recently?!)

[Centre cities]

Swinging the lamp, in the old days airports were owned by Councils. It didnt matter if they made a profit or a loss, they were supported fianancialy due to local pride.

With the transfer to private companies the financial bottom line became important.

With the growth of so called lo cost carriers these smaller regional airports became more attractive. Instead of the odd flight to Jersey and pehaps a Palma charter the smaller regional airports took off. The increase in flights lead to bigger overheads as facilities and staff had to be increased.

This is most noticable at Bristol, Liverpool and Newcastle where it had used to be spot the movement but not so now.

With the boom eventualy comes the bust, lo cost carriers find the major airports more attractive at the expense of the smaller regional ones as they offer cheaper deals, this is happening now.

As flights retreat rom the small regional airports these airports now have the problem of biger overheads, dwindling flights and passenger numbers and have private owners who are not in a position or have no desire to subsidise them.

There are to many airports offering flights to the same places, competing for the same carriers and something will eventually give.

Ryanairs and Easyjets bases remind me of British Airways and British Air Services ( Cambrian/Northeast/Scottish/Channel Islands) with bases all over the place, this was in time reduced to the major airports and is now just London. I suspect the same will happen.

I think some of the smaller airfields have outpunched their weight in recent years and the problems are coming home to roost. Look at Coventry for an example.


Centre cities

[wiccan]

WRT the Times article, I am sure that BMI operated into DVT, sorry DTV until last month, or am I missing something?

[jabird]

wiccan,

The point of the article is that MME mgt have lost a fortune on the legal case - this is in addition to the business losses due to falling pax figures.

CC, I think the probs at CVT were down to too many changes in management, and lack of local government support, rather than rapid expansion on its own.

In either case though, hevy legal fees have been involved in defending the airports' positions. CVT drove themselves into a corner, and have now given up on pax - this is a great shame, but following FR's takeover of a lot of former BACON slots at BHX, together with suitability questions over CVT's runway & 737-800s, I guess they ran out of options.

MME must be a natural base for FR, surely £1m would have been better allocated doing a deal with MOL to take a based a/c or two, and divert any possible growth from NCL.

[pug]

Why on earth do we need BLK, LPL, LBA, HUY, DSA etc when MAN is under utilised.



Parky747, no surprise your location status is Manchester... Not everyone wants to fly MAN/ London?

[SWBKCB]

WRT the Times article, I am sure that BMI operated into DVT, sorry DTV until last month, or am I missing something

The court case related to bmibaby who had 737's based at Teesside - it was the big, grown-up mainline bmi who pulled the Heathrow route recently.

Funnily enough, there is an arguement that similar mistakes contributed to the decline of the MME-LHR service - customers heard that bmibaby had pulled out and assumed this related to the mainline bmi service as well.

[Techman5]

We had some flights CWL to LEI booked with 'baby. The airline has since cancelled this route. Now that is pretty aweful behaviour as most bookings will have also booked some of parking, car hire and accomodation, and not all will be relevent to a new flight. I accept that most airlines will pull this stunt from time to time, and this is not a 'baby specific problem.

However, what has really annoyed me is that Baby decided to refund us £10 less than they charged us. I can see no reason for this. There was no mention of them attempting to do so on the refund e-mail, and we hadn't booked any non-flight related extras (although I would expect those to also be refunded as part of the same contract).

Its not particularly the amount, but it is a really shoddy way to try to make a few quid, and makes me worried about booking with 'baby again if they are so skint that they have to try such a trick for a tenner.

[scott737]

I had a similar experience with baby after they refunded me for cancelling BHX-FAO flights during the winter season just gone. The total refunded was less than the total I originally paid, by about £12, if I remember correctly.

When I checked the original booking material, the difference was the credit card fee. Perhaps this is the same with you?

I didn't bother to chase it (more fool me, perhaps) because the hassle of getting the money back was worth more than the £12. I suspect baby might have argued that the original fee was charged when I made the booking and as such, there was no obligation on them to refund it. That is speculation on my part, however.

I agree that it is shoddy behaviour. As an aside, I subsequently booked CVT-FAO and when TOM pulled out of CVT, they refunded the entire booking cost. It was professionally done with a full refund being credited to my card promptly.

So, would I book with baby again? No and finally secured flights with Monarch instead. I regard it as a bit of a cheap trick to withhold part of a supposed full refund with no explanation.

[Mr A Tis]

Similar tales can be found on the Skytrax website, where disgruntled pax complain about Baby pocketing fees for flights they (Baby) have cancelled.
I don't think they are doing themselves any favours here.

[OliWW]

Are bmibaby going to be adding the Billboard livery to any other aircraft in the future?

I also heard on thursday that Malta is an option from EMA next summer

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

In its article dated 23.06.2009, the online edition of 'Travel Weekly' carries an article entitled "Lufthansa to take control of BMI." This article includes the statement that "[the deal] spells the end of low-cost subsidiary BMI Baby." The article concludes by reporting that Lufthansa has previously made clear that it has little interest in BMI Baby.

From the article I am unclear whether "Travel Weekly" is reporting a fact already confirmed in the Lufthansa-BMI deal, or expressing an opinion based on past statements from Lufthansa.

I would welcome any clarification from other contributors. Good luck to all those directly affected.

SHED.

[OltonPete]

The summer schedule has been adjusted/further released and there
seems to be a need for up to 19 aircraft, an extra 2 from now.

BHX is certainly six based from June (Mo-Fr) on the current schedule

EMA requires six on a Friday and a very tight 5 based schedule on Sunday

MAN remains at four and Cardiff at three.

Routes not bookable yet BHX-NQY, EMA-PRG & CWL-GLA.

The BHX schedule has plenty of gaps between 10.30-16.30 and no
doubt it could be adjusted to go back to five aircraft if necessary and same with East Mids.

The Cardiff schedule is busy except for Wednesday and Manchester has
a few gaps which could be filled with new routes.

Any ideas if the aim is 19 aircraft and if so where are the two extra
ones coming from?

Pete

[OliWW]

B733's or newer aircraft?

I hear that Valencia and Seville are on the board for next year, these could fill gaps such as the one at Birmingham...

[OltonPete]

Just to clarify my previous post, I did only select two weeks in June
and I understand there are changes for July and August.

OliWW - those destinations would definitely fit in flight-time wise.

The other aspect of course is that a couple of the domestic routes
could be transferred to BMI Regional and that would take care of
the increase in units but is that likely to happen?

BHX-ABZ seems to have done okay since it changed from the 737 to
the 145. However most routes seem to be carrying 737 loads at the
moment but of course this is to be expected at this time of year.

Pete

[RoyHudd]

Don't be fooled. The bmibaby summer 2010 "timetable" is simply a negotiating tool with LH. The more flights, the better. And the greater the penalties if they are not undertaken.

bmi baby are dead in the water, unless a saviour appears rapidly. Sorry folks.

[jerboy]

bmi baby are dead in the water, unless a saviour appears rapidly. Sorry folks.

And for just how long have people been saying that?

RH do you have anything to back up your assertion that WW are 'dead in the water', or is it just pure speculation/hope/guesswork?

And remember, with regards to LH: If they do sell the bmi group, this will include baby. We don't know what plans any potential buyer has for the airline. So lets just wait and see if baby are 'dead in the water'. For all I know they might be, but for all you know the next owners might just be able to give it the capital it needs to invest and expand... you never know.

[INKJET]

bmi baby are dead in the water, unless a saviour appears rapidly. Sorry folks.

Roy Hodd

You might be right, you might be wrong, but like everyone else other than senior LH management you don't know, its that simple. Being anti bmi because of your previous with them is no foundation for saying the above.

2010 is a live program, which could change depending on what LH decide for the future for various parts of the group.

Time will tell

[mickyman]

INKJET

It is not uncommon on this site for people to
hold grudges with past employers,just ask ASFKAP.

MM

[stuart-travel]

Pete

Sun a/m is 6 flights 2 agp (1sch 1charter) mah, pmi, nce,alc.

regards
stuart

[OltonPete]

stuart

Thank you for the information, do you know which tour operator is
using the AGP and is there any sign of IT work from BHX?

It is very noticeable that BHX needs six aircraft in the week but
Saturday is crammed into 4, maybe 5 at most.

Pete

[aidoair]

Thomas Cook and its sister companies will be using using baby flights for some of their passengers. They have done on a few flights this summer, at least to AGP.

[CheekyVisual]

What baby are doing is throwing absolutely everything they can think of at the market as early as possible and hoping there is enough business out there to make a case. Make no mistake this has been done to try and stave off LH and the bmi board. If it works it will have to be flown with 17 aircraft there will be no more unless forward bookings are phenominal (which they aren't). If it fails it will have to be flown with 13 aircraft (4 leases running out and we know what happened last time) or perhaps none !

The deal with TCX is clever. If baby have written the contract well they will have given TCX a massive payout if the obligations can not be met, hopefully more than the savings to LH by getting rid of 4 more aircraft ! However, if they bite the bullet and just decide to shut it down that all becomes irrelavent.

Baby sees itself less dead in the water more in a holding pattern running the QRH hoping to stay alive until they can work out how to !

[EI-BUD]

Like Many airlines bmibaby are having it tough and now with the parent company Lufthansa significantly committed with other projects it would seem logical that anything outside of the hub and spoke type operation would be disposed of. Heathrow is the only part of the bmi group that LH is interested in the long term.

I think that question is when rather than if baby will be sold and it has been debated at length on the forum. I did a little analysis and this is what I found;

Out of a total of 63 routes that Bmibaby will or have operated this year (includes winter summer etc)
41 of these have 1 competitor
11 of these have 2 competitors
8 of these routes have 3 or more competitors

11 routes they compete with Ryanair
3 routes hey compete with Jet2
12 routes they compete with Easyjet
10 routes they compete with Flybe

And the outlook;
Easyjet have long terms aspirations at Manchester, Are Jet 2 likely to expand even further there are a result of Ryanair going into Leeds with a base. Will Manchester numbers suffer due to volume of Ryanair flights going from the surrounding airports?

At Birmingham with Ryanair in there with a base it cant be easy for Baby as they compete on many routes and this can only intensify. Flybe will continue to grow with a unique offering of frequent flight on thin routes eg Glasgow Edinburgh baby already hurting ?

Cardiff seems to be quite small as a base, and is quite challenged by the strength of Bristol not to mention that Flybe may have longer terms plans for the airport.??

Finally, East Midlands the home of the bmi group, will this base be sustainable long term with Ryanair and Easyjet both serving the airport. With a growing Birmingham up the road?

It is hard to see who might want bmibaby, Ryanair, Easyjet, Flybe. Would Ryanair want to go back to Cardiff with 738s? Would they want to buy business at Birmingham or East Midlands? and would they sign up for a base at Manchester???

Easyjet might be a candidate but again given that they operate on many of the existing routes at the key bases would they see value in such a purchase.

Or Perhaps Flybe is the one?? Expansion at some existing bases, trim back at a few others?

Sorry this seems like a negative post but thats how I see it. Finally, does any one forsee that Belfast East Midlands will survive with Baby now that Ryanair is going to 3 rotations a day on BHD EMA???

[INKJET]

Baby sees itself less dead in the water more in a holding pattern running the QRH hoping to stay alive until they can work out how to !

Na lad thee as it all wrong,

First off there are more than 3 aircraft(due) to go back in the 1st half of 2010 (twice as many)

Second If you think they can launch a flying program (2010) with LH all over them just as a fishing trip your having a laugh, not sure what you'll make of the new routes for both this winter (yet to be announced) and 4+ new MED routes for 2010

Non of which means it might not be sold/merged and so on

[CheekyVisual]

Inkjet I hope you are right and know a lot I don't. But the feeling I get from mates at baby is they are very worried about their jobs going into the winter.

[INKJET]

I can understand that and its not just in baby or bmi either!!

September should (hopefully) bring much needed clarification of the future direction of the various elements of the group mainline/baby/regional/cargo/engineering

Its only a few days to September and the Sun is out on a bank holiday week end and i've got it off so it doesn't seem all bad with the world:cool:

[lagerlout]

Could Jet2 have an interest?

[OltonPete]

CheekyVisual

I understand to a point the logic behind what you have stated as desparate times need desparate measures and it is jobs at risk but
would this the right way to go about it?

As it stands the baby June schedule requires 19 aircraft and if there
is no intention of increasing the fleet, I just can't understand how
these flights were released at the times stated unless LH have
authorised it or a couple of the domestics are changing to BMIR.

I would not be happy if I had booked my summer 2010 holiday but
without me knowing that there was a good chance that the flight
is likely to be re-timed or cancelled due to some brinkmanship going
on behind the scenes.

To Inkjet or CV - are they 500's or 300's the ones where the leases
are up next year?

aidoair

I flew baby flight only last year BHX-PMI and was amazed as over
half the flight seemed to have Thomas Cook baggage labels.

Pete

[aidoair]

Could it be that bmibaby may use a couple of A319s - A321s from mainline like they did last summer. If bookings and load factos from this summer are anything to go by, at least on the sun routes then i can see it being an option. One of the reasons why they never did this, this season was because of a predicted lack of bookings to these destinations. Well bmibaby among most other UK airlines have been proven wrong and the flights have been almost as popular as ever, hence they increased to two daily during the peak months to AGP, PMI and even FAO.


Aidoair :ok:

[CheekyVisual]

If you look at it through rose tinted glass half full spectacles then yes there is potential to use mainline aircraft next summer should the schedule and bookings demand it. Like everyone else I don't know how strong the bookings are for next summer at this stage and that will play a huge part in the decisions to be made. So provided there are no more fleet reductions or redundancies at baby (not out of the question - check the £170m predicted loss!) mainline aircraft could join the fleet.

The real problem is that aircraft utilisation this year is below LCC requirements with the med heavy schedule. Couple that with increasing fuel price and low yield market place things don't look that rosy going forward no matter what the outlook in the papers is. Unemployment is still rising, there is a general tightening of belts so those that aren't staycationing in the rain are only flying when the flights are very very cheap. So busy flights don't equal profit. Hard winter ahead for everyone in aviation if the banks stay closed.

[INKJET]

Just had a e-mail from baby to say that there are no credit card or debit card charges for bookings in the next 7 days, more importantly they seem to have opened up a new front with EZY & FR on ski routes with skis or snowboards going for free ie no sports goods charges, this also applies to Malaga for the Sierra Nevada ski area, how long before people start packing their clothes in ski bags for Summer holidays???

[OliWW]

We're staying put, baby!
easyJet withdraw flights from East Midlands Airport but we're here to stay.

Today, easyJet has announced that it will soon be withdrawing all flights from East Midlands Airport, but we want to reassure our customers that we are here to stay!

In fact here at bmibaby HQ we are actually adding extra flights within the next 48 hours across our destinations from East Midlands Airport to help passengers in the region who might be affected by easyJet's departure.

So don't worry about your next holiday, in fact this week's offer where you pay no credit or debit card charges on any flight means now is a great time to book!

Press release http://links.bmibabyemail.com/ctt?kn=6&m=33985533&r=MjgxMzc1NDgyMQS2&b=2&j=NTc1MzE2MzMS1&mt=1&rt=0 (http://links.bmibabyemail.com/ctt?kn=6&m=33985533&r=MjgxMzc1NDgyMQS2&b=2&j=NTc1MzE2MzMS1&mt=1&rt=0)

[INKJET]

Well September 09 will i suspect go down as a turning point in the fortunes of bmibaby, Tiny has a real spring in its step just now and whilst the loss of Easy at EMA is a sad day for all it should be a warning for not just the airports but also the Goverment that they are pratting with the most mobile of job creators in their short sighted enviromental tax policies, it matters not whether the aircraft are based here or in Malaga from an airlines point of view, but guess what? which country gets the taxes and employment APD aside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Nulabour are muppets and Camroooon is a Puppet

One has to ask what keeps us here? its not the surf or the weather

[mikerawsonderby]

3 more aircraft
8 new routes
expansion of existing routes
bookable tomorrow

Mike

[OliWW]

bmibaby have announced new routes to
Sardinia,
Barcelona,
Corsica,
Cork,
Croatia,
Malta,
Newquay
Venice

Basing an extra 3 aircraft at EMA, flights start between December and May bringing their total aircraft number to 8 by May 2010, flights on sale on Wednesday 9th September

As well as extra flights to popular destinations such as
Malaga
Palma
Alicante
Faro
Prague
Nice

All bookable by tomorrow, so will know exactly how many extra flights then

[MUFC_fan]

Something tells me Ryanair aren't wanting to expand at EMA...

Well done to BMIBaby!:ok:

[aidoair]

This is absolutely great news and i for one am really pleased!!! :ok:

However not to be too negative, hopefully this increase here at EMA won't see too much of a reduction at any of their other bases.

Again well done baby!!! :ok:

[Welsh Bobby]

Something also tells me that Baby dont want to expand at CWL....been waiting for a 4th based aircraft for ages!

The taffys continue to cross the bridge to BRS to reach some of the destinations Baby are announcing at EMA!

[MUFC_fan]

The gap left by U2 was to good to be true for BMIBaby, especially with Ryanair seeming reluctant to move in.

[OliWW]

Ryanair must be a little peed off by Malta, I know this has been on Ryanair's cards for some time and was possibly finally going to be announced for S10... ha, but you never know, its possible they will run the route too! I do hope Ryanair base a 7th aircraft here next summer, but now with a extra 3 aircraft from WW and a B752 from LS, we are still a B752 up really, on this year, so fantastic news for EMA and WW :ok: I just hope it stays this way, as when they started they had 7/8 aircraft here, and it never lasted

[mathers_wales_uk]

I wonder if these extra aircraft are going to be leased or are coming from LH? If they are coming from LH then possibility of an extra aircraft at CWL?

This is obviously and instant reaction from Eazy pulling out of EMA and possibly expansion at other bases?

[OliWW]

Valencia is possible from MAN, and im thinking there will need to be another aircraft there, I don't think there will be any extra aircraft needed full time at BHX, but who knows, CWL might also get an extra aircraft, I do doubt it though, WW are already trying to take on FR at EMA and EZY and LS at MAN, I don't think they want to also do it at CWL with FR and EZY as BRS

[sam1993]

This is excellent news for bmibaby. I presume they are getting extra aircraft and not reducing numbers at airports elsewhere?!?

[mathers_wales_uk]

Who knows whats going to happen the main way to cut down costs would be to pool resources (looking outside picture CWL-FRA iso BRS-FRA) One base better deal possibly.

I recently heard that WW recruited flight deck for a fourth a/c at CWL and then when it didn't happen they were stuck at either EMA or BHX for a couple of months.

WW has a brand to keep at CWL and unless something gets done BE will probably come out on top. Extra a/c may allow the oppourtunity for the weekend breaks that CWL is lacking that the BRS carriers have plus one or two new routes.

It all comes down to how many a/c are coming over/being leased.


This is excellent news for bmibaby. I presume they are getting extra aircraft and not reducing numbers at airports elsewhere?!?


Well rumour has it Ibiza to return to CWL and in S10 and routes to keep all 3 a/c busy are being sold.

[OliWW]

There are a few B737.700's flying around looking for lease and sale at the moment, ex SkyEurope, Sterling, easyJet aircraft, all available, so maybe WW's future fleet could be with them for the expansion at EMA?

[MUFC_fan]

Does WW not own it's current fleet outright? Similar to Jet2?

[xtypeman]

No the leasing companies do......

[mathers_wales_uk]

LH has a few 733 and 735, are all of these part of the main LH fleet or are they with the likes of Germanwings and other airlines taken over/merged with LH?

A figure i heared was a total of up to 6 aircraft to go to WW but that was once again on the grapevine from somone who had been talking to the guys and girls up at EMA.

[AltFlaps]

Lufty have 63 x 737 500's and 300's. These are all in their mainline fleet and I believe are owned outright.

Lufty are starting to park some of these aircraft, so they'd be good candidates for baby ...

[aidoair]

Well the routes have gone on sale today. There's some decent frequency on most of them and a couple with just a weekly flight but that makes sense on the target market they are aiming those flights to. The med routes have also been increased and Malaga is even upto 3x daily one a saturday! So so far looking good baby! ;)

:ok:

[mathers_wales_uk]

well one way to cut cost is to send the aircraft owned outright over to WW when the leases are due to run out. This may have been the plan with a few of the WW fleet going back to lessors last year.

Reduce fleet size while we were in recession and then transfer the LH fleet over once it starts to pick up/ or ideal oppourtunity.

Is there likely to be any more good news? I heared the IBZ has now dissapeared from CWL route offering before it even goes on sale.

[OliWW]

Would they even take some of LH's B733, some of them are like 23-24yrs old, a lot older than some current B733 in the fleet, more likely them to go to Jet2 :ok:

[freightdoggy dog]

Only if they are QC's Please OliWW !!!!!

[fjencl]

With the new routes coming at East Midlands, does that mean there will be new vacancies for cabin crew there ??????

[ryand36]

Hey

Can anyone tell me what the total number of aircraft based at each airport are to be for S10?

Thanks

[egnxema]

Dont get too carried away with all this talk of LH 73's moving to WW. There is plenty of talk aound of LH entering talks with the likes of BA, VS, EY and other to sell the bmi group.

You may be more on th ebutton considering what any of these airlines might want to do with WW.

[INKJET]

Whilst what you say is correct, i suspect that many of the baby crews feel far more secure about their futures this weekend, for mainline and regional they know there is probably more blood shed to come! whilst i wish them well for the future, some of the comments from the mainline community about, with LH we will be rid of LoCo & baby ring very shallow, how ironic if the shake out from this was that LH ended up owning baby, but sold moved on striped mainline and regional? as for regional i would not like to be in the manager shoes in ABZ what ever happens whether it be LH or Flybe i can't see a remote operation continuing give current losses

[airnoc]

Why is there no bmibaby flights into Ire west Knock on Tue sept 15th and only one on wed 16th from manchester?

[OltonPete]

airnoc

The simple answer - none scheduled to operate in the timetable.

BHX - NOC on Tuesdays finished last week I think and so has
the Wednesday. This is further reduced in winter when the
Saturday service stops until April.

BHX - NOC only goes daily on 13/7/10.

The Manchester schedule shows that the Tuesday service
stops for a few weeks but re-starts at the end of the month.

No idea why that would be but that how it reads in the timetable.

BHX-NOC figures were very good in August at 7596 or 123 per
flight but on the whole they have been reducing and as the
summer holidays have ended the Tue & Wed service have been
chopped already.

By the end of September it is not only Knock from BHX that is
reduced but Barcelona ends and Nice sees frequency cuts.

A tad surprised re BCN especially as this winter FR have cut REU
leaving just Girona at four a week and also the possibility of easyjet
cutting BCN from EMA in the new year.

Pete

[J-Guy]

Out of interest, is bmibaby intending to launch a new route to Jersey next summer? Looking at the schedule, there is a gap between the arrival and departure times of the East Midlands aircraft on Mondays, Fridays and Saturdays, which suggests that the aircraft could operate a ‘W’ pattern of some sort. The 2.55 available is not currently a long enough period to operate another route considering turnaround and flight times, but obviously such times can alter. Is it perhaps a return for the short-lived Birmingham route of a few years back or simply an error?

[aidoair]

Out of interest, is bmibaby intending to launch a new route to Jersey next summer? Looking at the schedule, there is a gap between the arrival and departure times of the East Midlands aircraft on Mondays, Fridays and Saturdays, which suggests that the aircraft could operate a ‘W’ pattern of some sort. The 2.55 available is not currently a long enough period to operate another route considering turnaround and flight times, but obviously such times can alter. Is it perhaps a return for the short-lived Birmingham route of a few years back or simply an error?

I also noticed this, at first i thought it was going to be a 'W' route to and from CWL like they have operated in the past, but that route seems to be operating with their own based aircraft. Be good if its another new route to the island, but at the minute its looking likely to be an error / schedule re-timing ? ? ?

[jerboy]

I would think the only thing (if any) this would indicate is the re-introduction of the BHX service. This was introduced a few years back and was cut after about a year (I guess) of operation.

As we all know JER is not a base for WW, and they do not operate flights between two non-bases: i.e. all flights either arrive or depart at MAN, EMA, CWL or BHX. I think this has been the case throughout their history and I do not see this changing without them spotting a gaping hole in the market. And to be honest, from here everything looks pretty well covered: BE would have taken care of any potential route long before WW would have noticed.

So yes, my bet is scheduling error: ie the pax who book the flight will get an all too familiar 'Schedule Change' email from WW. If not, the reintroduction of a BHX service is a possibility, pax numbers were fairly good last time round.

[airhumberside]

they do not operate flights between two non-bases: i.e. all flights either arrive or depart at MAN, EMA, CWL or BHX.
They are doing BFS-PRG this winter and have flown GLA-NOC in the past

[Little Blue]

W-pattern, remember the EMA-PRG-LGW-PRG-EMA ???
Oh boy, did the crews love that one !! :ok:

[jerboy]

They are doing BFS-PRG this winter and have flown GLA-NOC in the past

Fair play... I stand corrected.

But even so I can't see an opening in the market for a 733 operated route with a 2.55 round trip time. It would be nice it there was though!

[globetrotter79]

Have we yet worked out where the 3 extra aircraft planned for EMA next summer are coming from? Are the two things linked (the second being this apparent gap in the JER schedules)?

Hypothesis: the CWL base is to be pulled and the people in Donnington are mid-way through re-working bits of the schedule to be able to fit various XXX-CWL-XXX W-patterns into the revised program in order that a number of routes to CWL might be retained even if there are no aircraft to be based there?

[Panther]

Globetrotter,

I think your W pattern from another base to serve those routes currently on offer from CWL is a bit of a non-starter.

The FTL scheme would hamper such a move big time, and to work at all would involve bussing crews around from other bases which again would prove problematic.

I think that the CWL base is safe and well..........:ok:

[one day soon]

No idea about the 'cwl' base or any extra aircraft but as for the W patterns, well unfortunately this does seem to be a bit of a favorite at the moment at HQ as mainline have been doing it since March on most of their charter stuff (lgw-jtr-man-dlm-gla, etc) and most guys have at least a couple of seemingly pointless bus/taxi repositioning trips on each roster.

[A300BOY]

Welcome to the club !!!
We did plenty of taxi and mini bus positioning in the Dan-Air days and my present employer is not averse to positoning by two commercial flight legs followed by a taxi to the departure point then operate one leg followed by two commercial flights legs tback o base.

[OltonPete]

Prompt from the Cardiff thread.

Checked BHX-GNB at 17.15 and got quoted a fare and again
at 17.30 after checking for EMA and all flights gone!

No Grenoble from anywhere by the look of it for Baby.

Pete

[aidoair]

Not good if true and the route is fully cancelled. There was however talk a few weeks back that they were going to change the route to operate into either Chamberry or Lyon... I don't see why they would do that unless there is a disagreament at GNB or the route is not performing as well as hoped.

[aidoair]

The Good News
New routes from EMA
> As we know, the followinng routes have been announced (not stated as NEW news, but as GOOD news non the less)
Cork 4 x weekly
Venice 4 x weekly
Barcelona 4 x weekly
Malta 2 x weekly
Dubrovnik 2 x weekly
Newquay 3 x weekly
Alghero 1 x weekly
Bastia (Corsica) 1 x weekly
As well as increased frequency on Faro, Palma, Malaga, Alicante, Nice, Prague and Geneva.

New routes from MAN
Faro 3 x weekly
Lourdes 2 x weekly

As we all know, this expansion at EMA is going to need an extra 3 aircraft based there...
---
The Not so good news
Over the past couple of days the Alicante and Malaga routes from Manchester have become unavailable to book and passengers booked on these services have been issued a refund. From someone i know booked on the AGP service explanation or alternate given, other than the usual operational issues statement. Is this just start of a mass culling of routes from MAN? or could it just be a major rescheduling to the summer program at MAN next year? I really hope that they are not sourcing the additional aircraft from other bases, as they will be biting there nose off to spite their tails... I thought the MAN base would be performing well especially on these routes, so that's why i am baffled. Also earlier in the year, did they not say how well they are doing at MAN and how they planned future expansion there...

Other rumours; Reducing the CWL base further or even closing the base. Not much news on the BHX front however though, so hopefully nothing there will get reduced or changed!

Anyone have any more news or info ?

Aidoair :ok:

[OliWW]

The new routes for bmibaby were released nearly a month ago now... this is no real news unless you're using it as a quote, "check comment 456". As for AGP and ALC this is for the winter only as I am aware of and should be back for the summer along with PMI.

[Ian Brooks]

Spain is not flavour of the moth at moment so expect the loss of two routes ex MAN and replaced with Lourdes and Faro is quite a good move

Ian B

[aidoair]

Yes i know this! I was one of the first to comment about it, however i used that in my posting to explain the '' not so good news '' should there be any relation to it...

[OltonPete]

The Manchester - Malaga and Alicante suspensions were first
reported on the Manchester thread by TartinTon on 2/10/09

At the time I checked the full schedule for MAN/BHX/CWL.

MAN-AGP & MAN-ALC operates over Christmas (didn't check Easter)
but is not bookable next summer.

Cardiff now fits two based aircraft at least until Christmas.

BHX had an added Prague flight making 5 weekly for December only.

Manchester from June onwards seems busy and so does Cardiff (51
weekly flights).

BHX had about 96 flights in June and due to the timinggs need
six based in the morning and evening with several gaps in between.

Cardiff is extremely poor this winter but the summer schedule
looks very good with few gaps from June onwards and a pull-out
after releasing all these flights would be a shock but who knows
what LH have planned.

BHX will get several new routes or increased frequencies or failing
that, the schedule will be completely re-timed to fit five aircraft.

Since 2/10/09 very little has changed and I have been checking!

Pete

[fimbles]

Here's a conspiracy theory for you.....

German Wings web site allows you to select flights from MAN to a number of destinations - all of which are BMI Baby destinations. No flight details and not able to book, but are they preparing for a code share or more??????

Those crafty Germans:eek:

[daz211]

I just tried to book and got this....


The connection from Manchester to Cork
is operated by our partner bmibaby.

You can book those flights directly.

Do you want to be redirected to bmibaby now?


Bmibaby's bid to beat 'bloodbath'| News | This is London (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-14218713-bmibabys-bid-to-beat-bloodbath.do)

[gkaloy10]

Code-share with Aegean

[Curious Pax]

I assume that baby will not move that slowly on every initiative they have Daz. Date on the article is 22/10/04!!

[FlyboyUK]

Whilst that article is old, this link from EMA thread isn't

Germanwings opens new routes to Birmingham (BHX),Malaga (AGP),Amsterdam (AMS),Barcelona (BCN),Faro (FAO),Nice (NCE),Palma Mallorca (PMI),Prague (PRG),Cologne (CGN),Menorca (MAH),Copenhagen (CPH),Madrid (MAD),Cardiff (CWL),Alicante (ALC),Nottingham (E (http://www.theairdb.com/news/20091013178-germanwings.html)

[TartinTon]

Would be nice if they checked the info before publishing. You may be able to see the schedules on Germanwings but you can't book them. You get a referral back to the bmibaby website. I'm assuming that baby will have also "opened new routes" to all the germanwings destinations.......:}:}:}