Oban/Glenforsa News

[FREDAcheck]

Thanks for the explanation. As I said, if I'd kept up better with the never-ending saga I wouldn't have needed it!

[140KIAS]

Thanks NS, I thought it was self explanatory, but on reflection not everyone spends most of their work life trying to navigate public procurement. Fortunately my line of work has nothing to do with airfields or aviation.

I must have missed it if they decided back in May that this was being kicked into the long grass.

Does this mean the Toberymory grass cutters / grave diggers will continue to assess the suitability of the strip?

[dont overfil]

Glenforsa Airfield closed on September 30th UFN.

Daily runway inspections continue:ugh:

In the A&BC merry go round the contacts are now:-

[email protected]
[email protected]

D.O.

[dublinpilot]

Any idea why?

Was there another incident, or the runway gone very soft?

[maxred]

Will get the keyboard out in the morning and ask them why:rolleyes:

Let you know if I get an answer......

[The Original GF]

Aircraft just taken of from Glenforsa.

OGF

[dont overfil]

Yes but he's been there several days! I would take off whether it was closed or not.

Surely you must know more about the situation?

D.O.

[The Original GF]

Surely you must know more about the situation?

Not the case I am afraid, our first indication the Airfield is closed following the morning inspection is usually a call to cancel a room.

Argyll & Bute Council do not feel the need to inform us when they are closing the airfield despite the fact that 90%+ of airfield users are coming to the hotel.

OGF

[maxred]

Officially closed until 30th April 2014.

Sheep are moving back in, and I assume no movements, although I have requested clarification, but it looks doubtful.

See you in the Spring then:rolleyes:

[piperboy84]

So does that mean CLOSED closed, or if you fancy your chances without an inspection and don't mind a low pass to clear the sheep you are good to go?

[maxred]

That's what happened in the past. Different world nowadays though....It's a pity, but that's the way it is.

Watch the same happen to Prestwick.... Lol

[Maoraigh1]

Were the sheep not moved off at weekends last year? And were moved off at other times if someone PPRd.

[maxred]

Part of the response was- to preserve the integrity and condition of the grass...:cool:

[mad_jock]

Would that be the grass which has survived for the last god knows how long with aircraft landing on it?

[NorthSouth]

Here we go again. A&B Council have today issued a tender for SBAS Instrument Flight Procedures at Oban, Coll and Colonsay. I thought that had been properly knocked on the head the first time round when someone sensible pointed out that having a 1011ft hill 2km from the 19 threshold not only means you couldn't design a procedure to 01 with an MDH any better than just flying VFR, it also meant that the 2/3rds of the time when you'd want to land on 19, the circling minimum to allow you to do that would be 1300ft+ so again you'd be better just flying VFR.

But we'll see whether anyone puts a bid in.

NS

[maxred]

They have probably allocated a 1.3m budget, so no doubt someone will come along with a convincing proposal, and get more public money. Any old NDB'S going cheap...

[thing]

having a 1011ft hill 2km from the 19 threshold Crikey is it that high? Landed there on 19 last May and both me and my flying buddy remarked on it. Wondered whether I would get a base leg in actually.

[piperboy84]

Crikey is it that high?

Ditto, I would never have guessed it being that high, I may have my heading mixed up but we are talking about the hill on the other side of the bridge, behind the Falls of Lora hotel right?

[maxred]

The hill referred to is the lump at the NE end of the caravan park on the 19 approach. It fills your screen as you position right base for 19. As highlighted it sits app 2km from the 19 threshold. Not really a hill behind the Falls hotel, just a rise.

[NorthSouth]

I just wonder who's pushing this. I can't imagine it's Hebridean Air Services because I can't see how any IFP would give them lower minima than they currently use in their VFR ops.
NS

[maxred]

My understanding is that their SOP are strictly VFR.

Coll and Colonsay, with a procedure? Does not make much sense, but then the whole gambit makes no sense financially. Never stopped a good project manager, getting a budget, and going berserk, with justification, after justification.

No, it is a weird one. Someone at ABC been on the web browsers again?

[Johnm]

Last time I went to Oban that hill and the updraft from a stonking cross wind had me do two go-arounds, before I ran the wheels over the caravan roofs and got in :uhoh:

Nobody who understands anything about aviation would see a useful IAP going in there safely. I suppose commercials can't do the spiral let down over BRUCE;)

[mad_jock]

Oban

The chances of getting the kit in a islander for a SBAS approach is rather an expensive issue.

They might be able to get a drop into the circuit off shore.

I have a sneaky feeling that there has been a shall we say less than VFR approach for years which was used by the ambulance flights which was company only approved.

I really don't think though it would comply with any public transport rules. But then again there is some weird and wonderfull approaches in Norway, Vargar and Iceland.

The other two wouldn't be to bad.

But to be honest to get these approaches to work you would have to get runway lighting which 1.3 million isn't anywhere near enough.

[NorthSouth]

It's an easy calc.

1. What are the current cloudbase/vis minima for Hebridean's VFR ops
2. How many times a year have those minima led to flights being cancelled
3. Given the terrain constraints at Oban, how many of those cancelled flights would have got in if there'd been an IAP?

Personally I think the answer to 3 is probably "none". Not least because the only possible straight-in approach is to 01, but the wind favours 19 most of the time, so circling approaches will be the order of the day and the circling minimum will be 1310 feet - higher than they can do without problems on a VFR flight.

There are plenty other questions too, e.g.:

4. Can the three runways meet or be upgraded to instrument runway standards?
5. Will the CAA approve instrument approaches to airfields with only an A/G operator rather than a FISO?
6. If the answer to 5 is no, will A&BC pay for part-time firemen on Coll and Colonsay to be trained as FISOs?

[Sir George Cayley]

A Garmin 430W will fly an RNAV (GNSS) APV utilising EGNOS augmentation. The loverley people at the CAA consulted on a new CAP last year which will see things made easier for places like this in the future.

Maybe a checkerboard on the hill side?

SGC

[maxred]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8g-ArLYsloI

Think that has been tried before.

If the r/way can be extended into Oban High Street, then could make way for this lot:zzz:

[awqward]

SBAS approaches allows for curved final approach....

NextGen - A 'Win-Win' at Jackson Hole (http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/snapshots/stories/?slide=29&cid=TW201)

[Fostex]

3. Given the terrain constraints at Oban, how many of those cancelled flights would have got in if there'd been an IAP?

Maybe the tender has to budget for the excavation of the big hill!

5. Will the CAA approve instrument approaches to airfields with only an A/G operator rather than a FISO?
6. If the answer to 5 is no, will A&BC pay for part-time firemen on Coll and Colonsay to be trained as FISOs? Oban is already FISO'ed, so this would be a DIAP just like Islay, i.e. a secret squirrel approach for specific approved operators.

[Romeo Tango]

In the good old days before Oban got complicated by ATC and new tarmac I remember one could land in almost any weather by approaching over the sea and turning a very short final.

[140KIAS]

Some changes afoot at Argyll & Bute Airfields. All positive. More details here;

Landing / Airfield Charges & Fuel » Oban & The Isles Airports (http://obanandtheislesairports.com/landing-airfield-charges-fuel/)

In summary;

Coll & Colonsay landing fees reduced to £8
Temporary Indemnity for Holiday Visitors - £7 for 1 week or £10 for 2.
Obal loyalty card - pay for 4 landings, get 5th free

:D:D:D:D:D

[manix-cs]

Some changes afoot at Argyll & Bute Airfields. All positive. More details here;

Landing / Airfield Charges & Fuel » Oban & The Isles Airports

All positive? No mention of Glenforsa :(

[mad_jock]

I suspect there is going to be a huge negative coming about that one.

I hope those locally are making sure they aren't planning a sneaky one on that front involving a riper on the back of a tractor instead of a roller.

[malcolmf]

Also another improvement,
Applicants wishing to apply indemnity to the Aerodromes at Coll and Colonsay only, will be
required to register including card details but no charge shall be levied for the indemnity. PPR
and landing fees remain applicable

[Frank_Gallagher]

Awqward,


An SBAS approach does not allow for a curved Final Approach. It will be aligned with the runway centreline and be protected by an OAS which is similar in structure to an ILS OAS.


The link you have included is RNP(AR) which uses a series of RF (Radius to Fix) legs to allow for a 'curved' approach.

[Maoraigh1]

Glenforsa is open. PPR has now to be done through Oban Airfield.
Thread drift: Trying to PPR Broadford, the local dial code got me to a centralised Highland Council facility. I gave up when it said "no. 8 in the queue", and went direct to Oban.

[Maoraigh1]

Home » Oban & The Isles Airports (http://obanandtheislesairports.com/)
Watch the video. Well designed site, except home page slow to load.

[140KIAS]

Superb video. Hopefully be back over there very soon.

[NorthSouth]

No mention of Mull on the new website. Worrying. And presumably there was no fly-in last weekend?

[flybymike]

I also thought Glenforsa was conspicuous by its absence.

[DeltaV]

No mention of Mull on the new website. Worrying. And presumably there was no fly-in last weekend?
The Mull fly-in was last weekend, 23rd to 25th. 2014 Fly-In - Glenforsa Airfield (http://www.glenforsaairfield.co.uk/7.html)
I was there on the Saturday but turnout was poor despite a decent day but the forecast wasn't great. Including myself I counted 7 fixed wing plus 4 autogyros.

[Maoraigh1]

Our Group had planned to go from Inverness to Mull on Friday and Sunday and on Saturday to the Buchan Aero Club Fly-in at Longside. Saturday was the only decent weather.

[wheatools]

Does the chieftain still fly into Oban regularly?

[Maoraigh1]

Oban now has an aircraft loyalty card - stamped every time the aircraft lands, and the fifth landing is free.
Our airvent dropped out, and I didn't notice until back at Inverness. On phoning, the lassie immediately went out, found it, and put it away until I pick it up. Very helpfull.
PS Glenforsa is closed for the winter.

[NorthSouth]

Cyrrus has been awarded the contract to design GPS instrument procedures for Oban Coll and Colonsay

[xrayalpha]

Latest Oban news from The Herald in Glasgow:

Islanders left without lifeline flights after contract talks break down | Herald Scotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/islanders-left-without-lifeline-flights-after-contract-talks-break-down.125006278)

In summary, the commercial flights that the whole scheme was constructed for will end in a fortnight and not restart until, at the earliest, summer 2016.

"Residents of Coll, Colonsay, Tiree and Islay have been left shocked after talks broke down between the operator of the service to and from Oban Airport and Argyll and Bute Council.

The Public Service obligation (PSO) will now be suspended from Saturday, May 16 after the council's contract with Hebridean Air Services Ltd (HASL) runs out the previous day.

The company has been accused of submitting an inflated bid well over the council's £2.1 million three-year budget. The local authority said the suspension will delay flights until next summer.


John Macaskill, vice convener of Tiree Community Council said "It's a big blow and we are concerned that this has come at the eleventh hour, when a new tender is due to start in a matter of weeks.

"We are looking for answers to why the tendering process went wrong."

Andy Jolly, General Manager of HASL, said they had been left with no alternative but to advise travellers of the suspension of services, as they had no contract to continue.

Mr Jolly, whose company operates a nine seater BN2P Islander plane on the routes said: "The Hebridean Tender for the provision of these services for the period May 16, 2015 to May 15, 2018 was submitted to the Argyll and Bute Council on February 17, 2015."

A spokesman for Argyll and Bute Council accused Hebridean Air Services of "walking away from negotiations"

He added: "Although there were expressions of interest from a number of operators only HASL made a tender submission, with an inflated bid being well over the council's £2.121million three-year budget, and two variant offers which were also well over budget. The option existed for HASL to submit a bid for a reduced service, however, it chose not to do so.

"The council fully recognise the importance of air services to the islands, however, the flights must be sustainable and any subsidy has to provide best value for the public purse."

Although there is no other bidder the spokesman claimed it could raise legal issues, in terms of overcompensation, if they paid.


*************

Ah yes, the cooncil knows more than the only operator who would quote what it would cost to run the service.

(and the previous operator went bust, so maybe they didn't quote enough!)

And the cooncil accuse the only company that quoted of then "walking away". Darn right they walked - that's what businesses do if they are asked to quote and the customer exercises their right to reject it!

[NorthSouth]

Well perhaps this might get people to reflect on the justification for providing a service that costs the taxpayer £212 per passenger journey - and that's after getting the income from the fares paid, which in the case of islanders is £65 return - approximately 13% of the cost of supplying the service.

I'm not saying scrap it - air services to the islands have been subsidised for decades and there's clearly a need - but perhaps part of the problem is the singular lack of an integrated approach. There are separate contracts, and separate providers, for the subsidised air services in Orkney, Shetland, the Western Isles and the Inner Hebrides, and the general contraction of the twin-piston GA sector (and inability to replace those aircraft with single turboprops because of the EASA rules) means that there's little competition and the remaining operators are operating in a very challenging economic environment. Given that the Islander remains the only conceivable aircraft type to operate the services in Orkney, Shetland and the Inner Hebrides, is there an argument for somehow pooling resources so that one contractor provides them all?

Would services based on the Cessna Caravan - if it could be approved for these operations - be more cost-effective?

[maxred]

"We are looking for answers to why the tendering process went wrong."

Mmmmm, call me and I could enlighten you. I tendered three years ago, we did not get it, but there were only three at that time. One dropped out immediately, my tender was the lowest, but we did not get past the second hurdle, leaving only one player, who at that time, then bid what they liked:=

It was always going to be a difficult time when it again came up for renewal. Slightly surprised at the 2.1 figure, my, how it has risen.......

We are now no longer interested, and the difficulty in operating a service, VFR, with restricted ticket sale prices, and a big subsidy, is never going to go well. Hope they sort it, but at the time, a survey of the islanders, LIFELINE, is that most preferred the ferry:sad:

Lifeline services is quite amusing actually.....

[xrayalpha]

Anyone worked out the full cost per passenger of the whole ABC fiasco : new runways at Connel, Coll and Colonsay; staff costs for (unnecessary) licensing, etc plus the flight subsidies.

[bad bear]

If there are no scheduled flights for a year, what will happen to the pilots and aeroplane? Come to think of it what will happen to the fire crew, ATC and other airport staff?
Looking at Wikipedia it appears that the person who pushed hard for this airport to be developed has since retired, one has to wonder if the new council will continue to fund the airport and services above other local capital projects?
I think the cost was about £8.3M and a subsidy of £.5M per year plus the subsidy for the 2 routes.
My thoughts are with the staff who face uncertainty and upheaval.

bb

[maxred]

My thoughts are with the staff who face uncertainty and upheaval.


Agreed Bad Bear. It is a monumental cluster...k. It now exceeds £10m, with the airports running at an annual loss in excess of £350k per annum. It only continued, because of the air service. Budget circa £1m per annum, for the air service, with a restriction on ticket price so as not disadvantage the other service providers, ie ferry.

It will have to come to some sort of resolution, or end, but how, why and where will be the question. The cooncil were very badly advised in the beginning, happens when experts are set loose with public money, but hey, that is retrospective......

[Maoraigh1]

Oban Notam:
"Q) EGPX/QFUAU/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5628N00524W005
B) FROM: 19/09/27 14:02C) TO: 19/12/20 16:15E) AVGAS UNAVAILABLE"

[India Four Two]

Nearly three months without Avgas. Maoraigh, do you know why?

[Maoraigh1]

I can't reply to I.4.2, possibly due to length of thread.
Rumour is Paul Keegan has retired, and no-one had taken over the business. I think he operated at more than just Oban, with non-retail supply contracts elsewhere.
20 December might not be a firm date for fuel resuming, maybe a Notam choice.
Mods delete and add to original thread if appropriate.

[chevvron]

NOTAMs can only be valid for 3 months then they have to be renewed.