Oban/Glenforsa News

[ccvrs]

BBC News - Two injured after plane crash lands on Isle of Mull (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19692459)

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Glenforsa Airport is still closed following the accident on September 25rd.
A phone call to Oban airport revealed that Glenforsa is closed until 'further notice'

Should we be concerned?

WW

[dont overfil]

That's a coincidence. I was just thinking about that.

I think A&BC are ****ting themselves since the accident. Glenforsa is the only unlicenced airfield in their portfolio. They will not have a big enough book of rules on this situation and have discovered they need a "responsible person" who will work for bu**er all to blame.

They were trying to offload Glenforsa last year without success. I think we do need to be concerned. What do we do? Write again to S McT?:ugh:

I think the airport is only a small and inconvenient part of his remit.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

How is it there fault if a pilot stuffs it in? That can happen anywhere and does.

[maxred]

Is it not just because the sheep are on it??

Years back, part of the pre landing remit was a quick buzz to check for sheep.

Have we progressed from that?

[p1andy]

Still have to do the beat up to get rid of the dog walkers & livestock

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

It would appear that the department of Argyll & Bute Council that 'run' the airports are preparing a report that will present some 'options' for the future of Glenforsa to senior councillors. It also appears that there are no plans to consult anyone from Mull or any other stakeholders or airfield users as to what they think should happen to the airfield:ugh:


WW

[dont overfil]

mad_jock How is it there fault if a pilot stuffs it in? That can happen anywhere and does.
You, I and other aviation folk know that but to A&BC it's a risk.

D.O.

[maxred]

It would appear that the department of Argyll & Bute Council that 'run' the airports are preparing a report that will present some 'options' for the future of Glenforsa to senior councillors. It also appears that there are no plans to consult anyone from Mull or any other stakeholders or airfield users as to what they think should happen to the airfield:ugh:

I assume then that this will not be a public document, not be open for any public debate nor input, and will be presented at some stage in the future as an announcement:hmm:

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Going by the way the Oban Airport debacle has been conducted, I would say that is a fair assumption to make.


WW

[mad_jock]

So its basically screwed then like Oban.

[maxred]

Having thought about this, what is there to prepare a report, with options about?

It was an unlicensed field, with a wind sock. I know they then decided to make it like a mini Aberdeen, but that failed. David, I assume will be sent to look for wild Sea Eagles eating little lambs, and carrying off the local schoolchildren (the eagles carrying off the schoolchildren). Edited for full,clarification.

It will then revert back to what it was, an unlicensed field, with a wind sock. I am sure BW will oil up the tractor, mow the lawn, and we can all get back to calling in unannounced for a cup of tea and a venison burger.

Non?

[mad_jock]

I am sure BW will oil up the tractor, mow the lawn, and we can all get back to calling in unannounced for a cup of tea and a venison burger.


Not a chance in hell of that happening. Politically unacceptable and they will put a plough through it than that happening.

You won't won't even know that its going to happen, one morning a tractor or a couple of them will turn up with a reaper and plough and by the time anyone gets to the field it will have been ruined for landing aircraft on.

They won't even turn it into a camping site because they will begrudge the hotel getting buisness off the campers.

[maxred]

It would be in his interest to do it, MJ.

If of course the field reverts to that status.

Sorry did not catch your edit. Well we just have to turn up at Lochgilphead Town Hall, bats in hand , and ask to speak with the councilmen.:ok:

[mad_jock]

They won't care.

They will see it as there democratic right for the good of the community to destroy it because they have made such a pigs ear of the whole thing.

The council hate anyone benefiting from a public site and they hate it even more when they look clueless pillocks when a project fails.

You will need to start moving now to get assurances that it won't be raped in the middle of the night because once they do it thats the end of it. They will put the reaper through it, then drill it and then plough it. It will take months of compressing just to get the surface back again never mind a stable grass cover. And the longer you argue about it with nothing being grown on it the topsoil will get washed away and then youhave even bigger problems. The council won't have any money to do it and there will be some health and safety rubbish why the locals can't do it for free.

[muffin]

Who does the land actually belong to?

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

They will see it as there democratic right for the good of the community to destroy it because they have made such a pigs ear of the whole thing.

The council hate anyone benefiting from a public site and they hate it even more when they look clueless pillocks when a project fails.

You will need to start moving now to get assurances that it won't be raped in the middle of the night because once they do it thats the end of it. They will put the reaper through it, then drill it and then plough it. It will take months of compressing just to get the surface back again never mind a stable grass cover. And the longer you argue about it with nothing being grown on it the topsoil will get washed away and then youhave even bigger problems. The council won't have any money to do it and there will be some health and safety rubbish why the locals can't do it for free.


The only information the Councillers have to work with is that provided by the department that operates the airfields. If they were to be presented with considered, measured and sensible suggestions from the aviation community in sufficient numbers, it may enable them to come to a non-terminal decision as to the future of the airfield.


Who does the land actually belong to?


I assume it belongs to the ratepayers of Mull as it is a public facility.

WW

[maxred]

CWW - when you say it remains closed, can I assume that no wreckage/debris, bits of blue and white tape remain at the site?

Did it ever achieve any licensed status? If not, there would be nothing to stop anyone just popping in, same as it always was.

The A/G was a nonsense, the PPR via Oban, well I never did it, therefore, unless they do a Meigs Field on it, not a great deal to stop anyone using it. Also if it is in public ownership, then one could argue that, in Scotland, there are no laws of trespass, therefore a non issue.

I wondered if it was part of the Glenforsa Estate, but their boundry looks to stop short, or does that matter??

I may be wrong though, so would appreciate thoughts.

[mad_jock]

There is laws of trespass its just that they are civil and if you don't damage anything there isn't a problem.

But unfortunately you need the landowners permission under the ANO for use none emergency for landing. And the ANO is a criminal law not a civil.

[dont overfil]

Looking at this optimistically, I wonder if A&BC are waiting for the AAIB report?

D.O.

[Johnm]

I can't understand why A&BC keep digging holes for themselves, there's plenty of good will for an area utterly dependent on tourism and they just seem to work at p155ing people off and creating problems where none existed.

The contrast at Broadford is amazing, PPR over the phone without problem arrive at an empty airfield and fill in a form for an honesty box for landing fees.

Simple and cheap. The proposal to add commercial services will be satisfied with a couple of portacabins I believe. They must have been to Wanaka :D

[Maoraigh1]

Looking at this optimistically, I wonder if A&BC are waiting for the AAIB report?
It was in the December AAIB report - Correspondence Investigation. Nothing within A&B's control reported.

[mad_jock]

Dornoch is the same and it wasn't shut when the PA38 crashed there recently.

Most of the Orkney fields are run the same. Seems strange that ABC seem to have a completely different rule book to the rest of Scotland.

[abgd]

I thought that the network of airstrips in Scotland were partly to support air-ambulance operations, and that there are some fixed-wing air ambulances there. The internet seems to confirm this, though the Scottish air ambulance website says the aircraft are for inter-hospital transfers.

Am I mistaken? And if not, isn't it also the case that these airstrips and airports may be used by the emergency services?

As an aside, I thought MJ may enjoy this webpage which I just found:

Dornoch Airport :: Private Jets Charter :: (http://www.privatejetscharter.net/airports/scotland/dornoch/dornoch-airport/ap30935/)

"From the moment the jet lands at Dornoch Airport in beautiful city of Dornoch, , you will begin to experience a different, yet exciting culture. 
There is much to do, and much to see. Settle into the hotel, rest up, and then begin to take in the local culture."

[maxred]

From the moment the jet lands at Dornoch Airport in beautiful city of Dornoch, , you will begin to experience a different, yet exciting culture. 
There is much to do, and much to see. Settle into the hotel, rest up, and then begin to take in the local culture

And I honestly was beginning to think I had seen and heard most things that life could throw at me

[awqward]

Have to agree max....rotflmao!! :8

[maxred]

Just had a vision of the Trump 757, short final to Dornoch City Airport, guy in LHS looks back and shouts, "Donald, think we may have to throw this one away":cool:

[awqward]

.....and divert to Easter International...

[dont overfil]

That explains some of the bizarre phone calls I've had at Perth.

D.O.:D

[The Original GF]

Well we just have to turn up at Lochgilphead Town Hall, bats in hand , and ask to speak with the councilmen.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

The Area Commitee will be considering proposals regarding the future of Glenforsa Airfield at their next meeting in a couple of weeks.

They will be making decisions based on suggestions from the Council department that operates Argyll & Butes Airports.

Glenforsa Hotel would be willing to lease the airfield from the Council in order to operate, market,maintain and ensure the future of the airfield.

Area Commitee Members

Councillor Louise Glen-Lee (Chair) [email protected] ([email protected])

Councillor Fred Hall [email protected] ([email protected])

Councillor Mary-Jean Devon [email protected]

Councillor Iain MacDonald [email protected] ([email protected])

Councillor Alistair MacDougall [email protected] ([email protected])

Councillor Duncan MacIntyre [email protected] ([email protected])

Councillor Roderick McCuish [email protected] ([email protected])

Councillor Elaine Robertson (Vice-Chair) [email protected] ([email protected])

[email protected]

OGF

[mad_jock]

Way way to sensible. But I hope they go for it.

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Way way to sensible. But I hope they go for it.


I guess that might depend on the level of support forthcoming from the aviation community:ok:

WW

[maxred]

Thanks GF, everyone of them will receive an e mail from me advocating your proposal. Let's see what we can do..

[NorthSouth]

OGF: would an AOPA endorsement of your offer to the council help? I should be able to organise that.
NS

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

OGF: would an AOPA endorsement of your offer to the council help? I should be able to organise that.
NS


I will be grateful for anything that will help the council do the sensible thing.

OGF

[mad_jock]

And thanks for that link Abgd.

I was very temped to call them for a quote.

You can't get a kingair into Dornoch or Glenforsa.

You would have been able to get the Islander in though.

I think the current plan is either coastguard, RAF or Helimed to get the patients out.

[Maoraigh1]

You can't get a kingair into Dornoch or Glenforsa.


My hopes are dashed. After that link I had hoped a jet at full TO power would ingest the walkers and dogs from the edge of the Dornoch runway.

[NorthSouth]

You can't get a kingair into Dornoch or GlenforsaBut if you're one of the GAMA boys you can land one on 24 at Edinburgh and come off at Charlie - 465 metres!
NS

[maxred]

Amazing what you can do with an 80kt headwind......:ok:

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

You can't get a kingair into Dornoch or Glenforsa


There was French registered King Air at Glenforsa a couple of years ago:).

WW

[soaringhigh650]

The Area Commitee will be considering proposals regarding the future of Glenforsa Airfield at their next meeting in a couple of weeks.

When there's an accident it usually takes 20 minutes to clear.
A little longer for more serious ones.

What happened here was that this was shut for several weeks which affected business severely. Caused by some stupid selfish individual who chose to live beside the airport and kicked up a whole fuss about nothing, and a less than well-informed government who ordered that it should be kept shut.

No wonder we see more and more GA airports facing closure in the country.

[mad_jock]

Ok if you are on Private ops and huge nads and have insurance for operating onto grass you can.

But I still recon the chef would need to come down from the hotel with a fish slice to get the seat cover from between the pilots bum cheeks.

[Maoraigh1]

What happened here was that this was shut for several weeks which affected business severely. Caused by some stupid selfish individual who chose to live beside the airport and kicked up a whole fuss about nothing, and a less than well-informed government who ordered that it should be kept shut
Does this refer to Glenforsa? What is the government dept involved?

[Sparky01]

10kts on 24 was always plenty to turn off at C.

[NorthSouth]

AOPA and GAAC have now been alerted to the council meeting next week. Hopefully they will both make submissions.
NS

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Argyll News: Emergency situation at Glenforsa Airfield | For Argyll (http://forargyll.com/2013/02/emergency-situation-at-glenforsa-airfield/)

[madflyer26]

Argyll can be the greatest fun destination in Scotland, with activity facilities and opportunities for all manner of sporting activities for visitors and residents alike – and from diving, sailing and kayaking to leisure flying, with walking our great long distance walking trails in between. With the UK in such a depressed economic state it will be difficult to garner support outside the flying community. There is people in Argyll with more pressing issues like making ends meet. The very fact flying is considered a sport for those with perhaps more cash than the average bod will itself reduce the support it will gain. I do feel for Brendan as he could run the place with little ease.

Regards
MF 26

[dont overfil]

I was told some time ago that Glenforsa was the only airfield in the AB&C portfolio which made money.

I would guess finance is not an issue but politics is. CWW probably has it nailed. What's needed is someone (smart) in the council to recognise the asset and take an interest.

I would bet that a survey of the benefit Glenforsa brings to the area has never been done. Without black and white figures in front of them the council will consider it an unnecessary nuisance.

D.O.

[piperboy84]

I can’t understand all the nonsense about the strip needing “managed” and perhaps even needing fire service coverage as indicated in the newspaper story. It’s a grass strip for god’s sake, how much management does it need? Why don’t they just put a recording over the Unicom frequency on permanent cycle saying:

“Welcome to Glenforsa, the wind today is whatever the f**k the sock says it is, the pattern direction is the one that would involve you not flying into the hill, your landing at your own risk, if you make it down safe enjoy the local activities, if you don’t you’re on your own. Oh and by the way leave a tenner in the honesty box to cover the cost of Jock the shepherd cutting the grass and any associated scythe sharpening expenses he may have. If in the likely event that Jock has taken the money and gotten pissed up without cutting the grass, holding your nose up as long as you can on roll-out is advisable. Have a nice day.

Sorted.

[NorthSouth]

Just had an extremely encouraging response from a member of the Area Committee saying "Please be assured that your comments are noted and are shared by the people of Mull and Iona".

Fingers crossed.

NS

[Maoraigh1]

From the LAA Magazine I received today, bottom left page 9: Sport England recognises the LAA and will help them keep airfields open. There's also : sportscotland the national agency for sport: Putting sport first (http://www.sportscotland.org.uk/Home)

[NorthSouth]

Is that 'sport' as in, landing a 172 at Glenforsa when the wind socks are going in opposite directions? :hmm:
NS

[Johnm]

I've landed at Glenforsa a few times and the windsocks were pointing at each other on most of those occasions. It can be a bit tricky if the wind direction encourages rotor gusts. I've done a quite good imitation of the proverbial one armed paper hanger under those circumstances with throttle, rudder, ailerons all require rapid changes. Edited to add:

It's no more sporting than many other places such as Alderney in the Channel Islands for example.

[NewTimer]

Certainly trying to land when the wind is gusty from the south can be an interesting challenge.

[maxred]

It's no more sporting than many other places such as Alderney in the Channel Islands for example.

I was going to leave it, but 25kts, from the South, on 07, in something fast and heavy, can lead to sweaty palms, and an interesting view out of the RHS window:eek:

[NorthSouth]

The agenda for the council committee meeting next week is now out (http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=245&MId=5483&Ver=4&TPID=92138#AI71519) but it looks like the Transport Manager's report on the subject won't be released because
The Committee will be asked to pass a resolution in terms of Section 50(A)(4) of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 to exclude the public for items of business with an “E” on the grounds that it is likely to involve the disclosure of exempt information as defined in the appropriate paragraph of Part I of Schedule 7a to the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973.
The appropriate paragraph is:-
Paragraph 6 Information relating to the financial or business affairs of any particular person (other than the authority).
Paragraph 9 Any terms proposed or to be proposed by or to the authority in the course of negotiations for a contract for the acquisition or disposal of property or the supply of goods or services.
I guess that relates to OGF's leasing proposal, so that's good news.

In the meantime I've had several positive responses from members of the Area Committee. GAAC are also making a submission.

[maxred]

In the meantime I've had several positive responses from members of the Area Committee.

Ditto........

I assume the airfield still remains, 'closed', until confirmation of the discussions, reference - leasing - take place?

It would be interesting to have a look at that report, mind you.

[rocco16]

Response from Councillors is the plan is to reopen at Easter

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

The future of Glenforsa Airfield will be decided tomorrow, if you have something to contribute to the debate and have not already done so, I would suggest that you communicate so that you will be able to aviate.
A list of councillors can be found elswhere on this thread.:ok:



WW

[NorthSouth]

Anyone know what happened today?

[FREDAcheck]

Anyone know what happened today?
Or indeed yesterday?

[Oldpilot55]

A deathly silence, indeed. I would have thought this would have been all the talk at the Steamie?

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Glenforsa Airstrip on Mull will reopen for Easter 2013.

Published Date:
15 Feb 2013 - 11:25



It has been agreed the Glenforsa Airstrip on Mull will reopen for Easter 2013.
This comes after the Oban, Lorn and The Isles Are Committee meeting earlier this week.
Lead Councillor for Oban, Lorn and the Isles, Louise Glen Lee said, “There has been a review of operations at Glenforsa.
In the short term a new safety management system will be introduced as well as a programme of training for island based staff to assist with airstrip inspections.
There will be a subsequent advert for the post of Glenforsa Attendant.
In order to secure the long term safe and sustainable future of the airstrip, further analysis and consultation will take place in respect of a potential leasing model.”

[maxred]

Mmmmmm.... Good news.

[mad_jock]

Is it the lease should be done without the "bonus" of coming with out a council employee.

also the training should be done by someone completely external to the the current "experts" in the council. A week at a busy grass field in the south of England would be champion.

Actually Neitherthorpe would be more than suitable. Similar shortness and wx conditions.

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Don't encourage them, they need to go on a pot hole filling course before they attempt anything as 'difficult' as watching grass growing on Mull.

WW:E

[taildraggerOD]

Further to Mad Jocks comment re. Netherthorpe airfield, I worked as an instructor there for some 30 years, the last 12 as CFI, so I am fully conversant with the operation of a very busy and very small grass airfield. Since retirement I have lived on the Isle of Mull for 8 years and helped David whenever asked to assist in the running of Glenforsa airfield. Argyll council are well aware of this but have never asked for my advice or opinion.

[SFCC]

Hello Ian.
Why would they? It's tantamount to a bloody farm strip for God's sake

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

It's a bloody farm strip for God's sake


So why do the council think they are running Gatwick?

WW

[maxred]

There will be a subsequent advert for the post of Glenforsa Attendant.
In order to secure the long term safe and sustainable future of the airstrip, further analysis and consultation will take place in respect of a potential leasing model.”

This statement is of course fraught with problems. Salary scale for Council Attendant? That was what David was doing, no?

The long term safe and sustainable......bollox. If someone takes on a lease, then it would be their responsibility for safety and financial prudence, not the council.

No one in their right mind would take it on, with pre-requisite safety boundaries imposed by the landlord. Also if the landlord set their view of how this was to run, then as WW states, Gatwick financial forecasts would seem tame. ABC have continually cocked this up, and it would appear, that they will continue to cock this up......the only good news it would seem is that it will open at Easter.

PPR through Oban anyone?

[xrayalpha]

You cannot have "A" Cooncil Attendant:

I reckon you will need at least three, if not four, to provide a seven days a week service; cover for lunch, dinner and tea breaks; cover for training courses; and cover for summer holidays.

Then they will need a "cooncil bothy": with public inquiry and booking in/out room; private "mess room" for statutory 10-minute breaks; and a toilet. All with a good view of the airfield.

I don't think you get cooncil caravans.

Of course, with just one attendant, the airfield will be "unsafe" outside the hours of 10am till noon and 1pm until 4 (Mon to Thurs) and 10-12 on Fridays. Ie closed all weekends and evenings.

Oh, sorry, that's how the professionals in HIAL run Campbeltown!!

[mad_jock]

Hells bells taildragger.

Perfect for the job in question.

Chances I suspect cock all.

And you cannot have a singular council employee because of "health and safety rules" you can't even work on council property solo you must have a monitor in case you have a "stroke" in the bog and pass out. I have many a time dodged the two man rule about working for the pillocks in local goverment. Still billed for two mind.

[fatmanmedia]

if i had the money i would offer ABC to buy Oban/Glenforsa and show them how it's run.

fats

[abgd]

What - you have to take someone with you to go to the loo?

[mad_jock]

Yep and you can't lift anything heavier than a bag of sugar without a risk assement. If you ask about using a fire extinguisher that is obviously heavier than a bag of sugar you are obviously a piss taking unsafe self tappering person with no daddy.

You cannot work solo under council rules. Be it having a dump or watching the grass grow very very slowly.

They actually sent an email 2 years after a delivery I did questioning the artic I unloaded which was 25 tons of salt which I did myself. The other artic at a different site was delivered by a mate. I had on my paper work that the mate was my second man and he had me as his.

ABC then tried to chase me for two years about the delivery. The logistics company had no problem telling them who the drivers were and then washed thier hands because we were through drivers force. They are still more than likely sending letters out about it but I moved house. I really didn't understand what we were ment to do about it as I was never party to the delivery contract. I was never a employee of the logistic firm. But apparently I was completely illegal off loading 25 tonnes of salt by hand. As such there is no LAW banning this but pure council policy of two men and Salt is apparently dangerous goods and requires training and certs which i didn;t have.

They had obviously never heard of opening the curtains then reversing like hell jamming the anchors on and the load sliding off the back just as you go over two breeze blocks. The side exit unloading is best not seen by the police.

[abgd]

Personal Alarms - Panic & personal alarms for the elderly | Age UK (http://www.ageuk.org.uk/buy/help-at-home/age-uk-personal-alarms/)

Something like this and they can let people work alone and double their efficiency.

On a serious note, flying to Mull sounds like something I would like to do, and if the airfield stays open for long enough I will try to find time to do so.

[mad_jock]

Joking aside they really can't let anyone work solo under current rules.

And all round that area is cracking to fly there are plenty more strips outside ABC's control. As soon as you get into Highland region the issues you have seen on this thread disappear which is partly the problem as 20 mins up the road from Oban you can land at Plocton with zero bollocks and an honesty box and zero crap off the help in the community trumpton fire service with a combined IQ of less than 100.

Its have a word on Frequency have a look at the wind sock and then land and piss off to the pub. Turn up then next day walk to your aircraft and fly home.

[fatmanmedia]

i did some work for a Scottish council where i ran a stage with some local bands. i had one raised stage, a generator and a PA system.

I've done this many times and the most i had to do in private venues is maybe 15 pages of paperwork mainly copies of insurance and and proof that the gear had their PAT certificates.

for the council event the paper work totaled 1576 pages, risk assessments, fire risk assessments, current first aid certificates, proof that the riggers had the work at heights certificates, the electrical gear had the pat certificates including all the cables, i had my current public liability certificate, i had my SIA card as i would be controlling access to the sound booth, i could go on for hours on what was required.

councils do not know how to run anything that has to either make money or provide a service.

Airports should not been run by them.

the way they would man a grass strip would require 4 men plus 1 supervisor and a admin worker to produce all the paperwork they would require for landing and take off's.

and remember they would expect you to be waring the correct hi-vis vest when outside your aircraft, low and behold if you had the wrong colour or design, expect a nice £100 fine and a requirement to undergo their airport training.

Fats

[Johnm]

Having worked on the railway, London underground and the Channel Tunnel construction, I know a bit about Health and Safety in dangerous environments. In my experience Councils don't, they know about paper.

The regulations are simple and risk management based and impose a duty of care on BOTH employer and employee to behave responsible and respectively provide and use NECESSARY safety personal protective equipment.

Contrary to the view held by many councils risk management doesn't imply the elimination of risk, merely a sensible attitude to minimising it.

The risk at Glenforsa is the same as any other grass strip i.e. small and the number of things to pay attention to are few, since the responsibility for its safe use rests with the pilot not the operator. All the operator has to do is answer questions from pilots honestly and know the length and condition of the strip, if they can observe the weather that's a help too.

[maxred]

The risk at Glenforsa is the same as any other grass strip i.e. small and the number of things to pay attention to are few, since the responsibility for its safe use rests with the pilot not the operator. All the operator has to do is answer questions from pilots honestly and know the length and condition of the strip, if they can observe the weather that's a help too.

You know that, I know that, and of course, we all know that. ABC, unfortunately, do not know that. These small airfields were sold a bunch of S.O.P's, go to the beginning of this thread, all 68 pages or so, which will tell you why we are here.

Having got their teeth into it, well you know the Gobment authorities, bit difficult to extract yourselves. They view it as tantamount to operating Heathrow, only thing missing are thousands of passengers, and of course, thousands of large jets. Other than that, they attempt to run it the same.

Issue is, those that wish to pop into a small grass strip, on a whim, well, not quite there yet. Last year, a friend, on landing at Perth, from Glenforsa, was asked to call the council. David had reported him for taking off without calling him up on the walkie talkie. A flagrant disregard of A/G procedures. Not joking....

[scottish_ppl]

Man, there are some real glass half empty types on this thread. :ugh:

How about a bit of relief that the field stays open, and a bit of encouragement for the councillors who took that decision.

I'd hate to see the reaction if the decision had gone the other way, although I suspect that even if ABC gave away free Avgas, some on here would find reason to criticise....

[maxred]

How about a bit of relief that the field stays open, and a bit of encouragement for the councillors who took that decision.

Given it was them that got us here, not sure that congrats are in order. You obviously have not understood the larger issues that encompass this trail.

10.5 million of public funds and still counting. Everyday it mounts up further, and everyday everyone pisses about the edges. You don't get it do you Scottish PPL......

[scottish_ppl]

Oh, I get it OK. There are a few characters who have their own particular agenda to follow in this small part of the aviation world...

I'm just glad the council didn't spend the money on a tram network, or something equally useful, and I dont have to dodge the potholes at Oban any more now it's had a bit of investment :ok:

[Oldpilot55]

My memory is that the RAF did the resurfacing cos they were running Hercs in and out a few years back..is that correct??

[scottish_ppl]

My memory is that the RAF did the resurfacing cos they were running Hercs in and out a few years back..is that correct??

Nope, although the original creation of Glenforsa was done by the army for the good of the community. Maybe we should have a long thread about that shocking misuse of public funds, in a more enlightened age... :E

[Oldpilot55]

Sorry, I meant at Oban... you were talking about pot holes at Oban.

[xrayalpha]

Dear Scottish_PPL,

Let me be positive:

Here is my relieft that the sun rose today.
Here is my relief that all the cooncillors in Scotland who have power over airfields - and that amounts to a fair few airfields! - have decided not to close them.

Eh? I should thank cooncillors for keeping open a community asset that is in their care and trust? Really?

OK. I just thought keeping these airfields going was their job. You know, that day-to-day thankless task that we all do to pay the bills. The sort of thing that keeps our roads pot hole free!!

And unless we work for the banks and collect massive bonuses for **** all, we only get thanked when we do something special.

Nothing special about all this!

[maxred]

Oh, I get it OK. There are a few characters who have their own particular agenda to follow in this small part of the aviation world..

And exactly what agenda might that be?.........:confused:

I await enlightenment:ouch:

[Johnm]

Oh, I get it OK. There are a few characters who have their own particular agenda to follow in this small part of the aviation world...


The agenda of most folk on this thread is to keep Gleforsa and Oban accessible to all aircraft at all times with the minimum of cost and bureaucracy. Moreover there are quite a lot of people around with the necessary expertise to help the airfield owners do their part and are willing to do so! Up to now the council has exhibited a tendency (sometimes on misguided advice) to increase cost and bureaucracy beyond what is needed.

[NorthSouth]

The minutes of last week's council meeting are now available here (http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/moderngov/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=245&MId=5483&Ver=4). Not a lot of new info but it says:A report summarising a review carried out on the operations at Glenforsa Airfield was considered.

Decision

The Committee agreed:-
i. The recommendation at 2.1 in the report;
ii. To amend the recommendation at 2.2 in the report as follows, further analysis of the strategic and economic importance of Glenforsa airfield will require to be carried out, including consultation, prior to making a considered decision on whether model 4 could be taken forward in the long term to secure a safe and sustainable future.
iii. That a further report come to both the March Business Day and April Area Committee providing updates on progress.
NS

[maxred]

Oh, that's helpful. Clear as mud......

[Maoraigh1]

Flew to Oban today. Very welcoming as usual. Clean warm lounge and toilets. Quick fuel and an offer of a complementary coffee. I noticed A&B have 4 mountain bikes for free use by pilots/passengers of aircraft landing there. I don't remember seeing that mentioned before on this thread.

[mad_jock]

Well I suspect thats them gone then.

Because push bikes require a safety course before use and also a safety sign off as per all council gyms by a jockstrap thick prat.

If they are given at council property they have to have all the paper work and insurance for them to be used.

Which is maybe why everyone is not mentioning it.

The complimentary Coffee is also not allowed under council remit I am afraid it will have had to have been fiddled through the books unless they have included it as part of the landing fee. If they haven't as part of there service for the fee they are in breach of auditing rules.

So all in all a cracking post Maoraigh.

If it was run by a none council operator there wouldn't be a problem.

[maxred]

That's new. Bikes were not there recently. Excellent news because the bus is a bit sporadic, and unless PK gives you a car, a bit limited if you don't like walking.

Great news, will take my hi viz, hard hat, and bicycle clips on my next trip.

Seriously though, that is good, and shows someone, somewhere, is thinking about customers:D

[mad_jock]

Its cracking news maxred but I suspect completely against council policy and also red tape.

Because remember councils don;t have customers just people who use the services that should be :mad:ing grateful for what they get.

[thing]

Heading up that way in May to the Glenforsa fly in. I understand that the nearest fuel stop is Oban, is this correct? Can you just land there and fill up or do they need notice?

[maxred]

Yes, Oban is your fuel stop.

PPR has been requested in the past, although not mandatory, but if working Scottish they will inform Oban of your plan.

Coming up from the South, a call for local weather check would be positive, and this can act as PPR, and let them know you wish fuel.

The Glenforsa fly in is a great event. Probably there myself, weather permitting.:cool:

[thing]

Thanks, there may be a few of us turning up!

[mad_jock]

Thast completely against council policy if they are taking it over the radio.

And according to the AIP it is manditory.

[maxred]

Well I have never done it. I just pitch up, transfer from Scottish, and nobody has ever said a word.

That is why I stated to Thing that it has been requested in the past, and I was aware it was in the AIP, but, hey ho.

Whilst they know me, I doubt they would let me away with not PPR if it was truly mandatory........

This of course, is in part, what these 68 pages have been all about......:confused:

[mad_jock]

This is the problem with "council" policy.

Eventually the workers on the ground have learned that unless they play ball they will be out on their arse looking for another job unless things arn't not run by the book.

Because really pilots won't put up with the rules at a council run airport.

We have bikes given out now from council run property with out I presume liabilty disclaimers and/or sign off by low IQ jockstraps.

We have free coffee given.

No PPR which is required for council insurance so they claim.

So the interpretation is now developing due to the locals realising that the airport is completely stuffed unless things are sorted.

I presume that F/S arn't slagging all the pilots off and boasting about giving them a good talking to in the pub anymore.

I also presume A/G isn't filing pointless MOR's which absouletly nothing would be done about.

I also presume A/G isn't a stroppy git any more.

Bit late as far as I can see the damage is already done.

[Johnm]

The last time I went into Oban I had three goes at landing before I finally twigged I needed to be at a level that would normally run the wheels across caravan roofs so as to deal with updraft from the stonking the cross wind and the hill that was blowing me back up into the sky.

I got nothing but help and sympathy! The staff in the tower (even after the third go-around) and the reception were friendly and courteous and PK was his usual dry self while filling up my aeroplane. The management seemed not to be officious either.

I shall be back later in the year all going well and may get to stay with Brendan and Allison again.

[Portnacroish]

Free bikes and coffee ??? Hold back a little longer folks and they'll pay you to come !! Just to help inflate the numbers you understand. They don't actually like you coming !
The poor taxpayers of A&B stuffed again not to mention anyone in business renting bikes as their business !

[madflyer26]

Madjock,

You sum it up perfectly. That **** of a FISO is still there. Nothing will change at Oban as long as you have donkeys running the place.:ugh:

Regards

MF26

[gasax]

The bikes have been there since June last year. I posted this about then;

I'm a little loath to post anything about Oban but...

Latest development is handy for fly in visitors - they have 4 bicycles available for loan on a 'first come, first served' basis can be arranged at the same time as PPR I believe.

So something positive in amongst all the usual in-fighting and council business. ]

[Maoraigh1]

Can I make it clear the coffee offer was from PK at TLC.
I have never had any complaints about the radio at Oban.
PS The voice on Thursday sounded young female.

[maxred]

Well really glad we are back on track.

MJ was about to have a seizure on the thoughts that ABC might be giving out free coffee.

PK has always been very generous, as long as you buy fuel;)

The welcome is warm, and generous. (PK). And I also have not had too many issues on the radio. In fairness, despite the 'authority', the guys on the ground, generally go out of their way to be helpful

Not going back though, due to no free coffee from ABC:sad:

[mad_jock]

I don't particularly care about free coffee don't drink it myself. A cold water tap without being charge for a bottle of branded tap water is all I usually want. And PK will give you that as well as a tea stained mug.

Might be worth a visit if one of trumpton has had a sex change though.

[madflyer26]

M1,

If you have been to Oban frequently you would have encounterd the high and mighty chap on the radio. Apparently after many complaints against him he has been reduced to polishing the fire trucks on a daily basis thus allowing the more friendly folks to do the job. At a struggling airport the last thing the clients/pilots want is a half mad FISO roaring over the radio with unreasonable untimely commands. The lunatics are running the aysylum at Oban and very little will change. A step in the right direction was removing the said FISO from the tower.
Regards
MF26

[Maoraigh1]

The lunatics are running the aysylum at Oban
How do they find time to do that as well as posting on this thread?

[NorthSouth]

Clearly the "closed till Easter" rule applies only to those and such as those:
Q) EGPX/QWELW/IV/BO/W/000/045/5631N00554W005

B) FROM: 13/03/04 07:00C) TO: 13/03/08 22:00
E) EXER SCOTTAC. TACTICAL LANDINGS BY UP TO 2 ACFT WI 5NM RADIUS
563100N 0055400W (GLENFORSA, ISLE OF MULL). ACFT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO
COMPLY WITH RAC. OPS CTC 01993 896861. 13-03-0085/AS 3
LOWER: SFC

UPPER: 4500FT AMSL

SCHEDULE: 0700-2200
Land a Herc on a soft wet grass runway that's closed because it's soft and wet? Nae bother.
NS

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

How do they find time to do that as well as posting on this thread?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u218/TCH_photo/Airfield/th_OAFS.jpg
OAFS

Because there are lots and lots of them!

WW:E

[flybymike]

Good God: ten fire crew for a place like Oban? Have they EVER actually been used in anger?

[gasax]

thanks CWW.

To paraphrase the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words", or in this case 1300 odd posts.

If anyone ever needed to see what is wrong with the council running an airfield this is the perfect example!

[dont overfil]

Land a Herc on a soft wet grass runway that's closed because it's soft and wet? Nae bother.
NS
Similar NOTAM for Kinnell. It's no longer an airfield. The C130s have been very handy at Perth for moving the birds!:oh:

D.O.

[Maoraigh1]

Are there still 10 firecrew at Oban?

[Good Business Sense]

The Fire station gym equipment must be worn out !

[maxred]

There are 11 OAFS in that picture. Unless we are not counting the MD in the highly visible dayglo business suit.

Back on page 40 something, was a 90 day notice not issued by ABC?

Perhaps someone "on the ground" can tell us if the 9,10 or 11, were reduced.

The only thing missing apparently is Postman Pat:ouch:

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Good God: ten fire crew for a place like Oban? Have they EVER actually been used in anger?


Well, there was the occasion that an incoming aircraft had a nosegear red light, they could not get the fire tender started and then claimed it was 'sabotaged':hmm:

WW

[Cows getting bigger]

Sorry for staining the bleeding obvious, but you can't assume over-staffing unless you know what shifts the chaps are working. It could be that 8 of the 10 only do half a day a week.

[Good Business Sense]

Don't think there has been a passenger killed in an accident ON a Scottish airport in over 50 years !

[maxred]

Sorry for staining the bleeding obvious, but you can't assume over-staffing unless you know what shifts the chaps are working. It could be that 8 of the 10 only do half a day a week

Well for the past few summers, it opened at 9, closed at 5. Suppose they could work an hour a day, on 20k a piece.

Also, sorry for being pedantic, but there are ELEVEN in that photo, not TEN.

When the public audit comes, this will be very important.:*

[Dawdler]

Well, there was the occasion that an incoming aircraft had a nosegear red light, they could not get the fire tender started and then claimed it was 'sabotaged'http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gifWas that the fire tender that was too big to go inside the garage?

[NorthSouth]

Be prepared for another splurge of claims about Oban Airport connecting to the world.... (http://www.hitrans.org.uk/Documents/Item_10_-_Regional_Air_Service_Development_Opportunities_Study.pdf)
NS

[fisbangwollop]

Just watched the BBC Scotland news report about a possible air service between Oban-Glasgow........The reporter was filmed in the middle of the runway......not a high vis jacket to be seen! Shock horror!:p

[NorthSouth]

Just watched an item on Reporting Scotland claiming uncritically (there's a surprise...) that passenger numbers have DOUBLED on the Oban air services in the past year. Given that A&BC choose not to supply any information on pax and movement numbers to the CAA, can we really believe this?

On the other hand, given that the pax figures in previous years had shown an average of one and a bit pax per scheduled sector, a doubling may actually represent very few additional passengers.

NS

[NorthSouth]

fbw: The reporter was filmed in the middle of the runway......not a high vis jacket to be seenSuggest you get rid of your black and white telly - my super-duper up-to-date device clearly showed an orange jaicket ;)

[fisbangwollop]

Orange jacket as in off orange anorak.....does that comply? :cool:

[mad_jock]

Its just an old high viz. You have to remember that on the west coast its not a fashion issue wearing them. Folk are perfectly happy to wear them out as long as it fills the vital role of being warm/water/wind proof.

You can get a Helly Hansen wind proof Hi-viz jacket for 30 quid.

And a Sioen artic jacket for 70 quid.

If you went for a none high viz same type of jacket which is of similar quality and wx proof you would be double if not three times the price.

[Bigears]

Good Business Sense,
Pax walked into prop at Glasgow approx 20 years ago & Dan Air 748 at Sumburgh (although it ended up in the water, so suppose doesn't fit your criteria of on an airport)

[Good Business Sense]

Tks Bigears - yeh, dismissed those. Looking at it from the point of having emergency services on airport to save pax.

As I'm sure you know, they are tasked with being at the "runway in use" within three minutes of the first call to lay down a path to safety "from the fire" so that you can escape by yourself - except as the aircraft are generally certified to self evacuate within 90 seconds, in truth, they're late for what they are legally required to do !! Off airport they're usually way too late.

Only recently have some airport emer services been trained and allowed to enter an aircraft on fire and rescue pax

[mad_jock]

There was that one at abz that had a double bird strike and crashed just outside the fence on the road

[Bigears]

GBS, roger, understood and good point!
I realise that the firemen are at Oban as a result of licensing requirements, but I'm very happy that someone is there to extract me if I cock it up in my wee spamcan. I do on occasion also operate to places where it is entirely up to me to extract myself (and more importantly any pax), which wouldn't have potentially as happy a result. Is it worth a proportion of a reasonable landing fee? To me, yes.

[flybymike]

I realise that the firemen are at Oban as a result of licensing requirements, but I'm very happy that someone is there to extract me if I cock it up in my wee spamcan. I do on occasion also operate to places where it is entirely up to me to extract myself (and more importantly any pax), which wouldn't have potentially as happy a result. Is it worth a proportion of a reasonable landing fee? To me, yes.
What do you suppose the total landing fee income is at Oban? and the total fire crew wage bill and overheads? and what proportion of your landing fee covers this?

[Bigears]

I'm saying that I'm happy to pay a proportion of my landing fee to have available fire cover (where it is existing already) and am not going to get drawn into a debate, although thank you for the offer.

[maxred]

Appreciate Bigears you do not want to get drawn into a debate. Ditto.....

But, this is at the heart of the issue. The general war cry from the GA community is, we want as cheap landing fees as possible. How many individuals would go to Oban if the landing fee was 100 quid.?

Probably none.

And yet, we all want the facilities, we want the bells and whistles, but expect someone else to foot the bill.

In fairness to ABC, they built a pretty good facility, staffed it accordingly, and yet kept the landing fee at 15 quid. Taxpayers footing the ever mounting shortfall, which by the way is about 500k per annum.

And we will not even discuss the subsidised air service:eek:

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Be prepared for another splurge of claims about Oban Airport connecting to the world.... (http://www.hitrans.org.uk/Documents/Item_10_-_Regional_Air_Service_Development_Opportunities_Study.pdf)


Argyll and Bute has the third sparsest population of the 32 Scottish local authorities, with an average population density of 0.13 persons per hectare. This compares to a Scottish average of 0.65 persons per hectare. (Source ABC)
Total population of Oban, Lorn and The Isles is 20,434 (Source ABC)


So how is this going to work, how does a population density like that support a commercial aviation operation?

WW

[Good Business Sense]

Subsidised air service - I understand it's somewhere between £6-800 per passenger out of Oban !

I was just thinking about how much has been spent on fire cover at Scottish airports over the last 50 years - certainly many hundreds of millions of pounds - perhaps more in today's money !

I have a mental block that a "vehicle" such as a coach, full of fifty people, can run up and down the country/mountain roads of Scotland in all weathers without a fire truck in attendance but a small "vehicle" with 6-10 people can't land at an airport without one. Don't see the ferries or, for that matter, family yachts/boats being followed by lifeboats.

N.b. aircraft certification is based on self evacuation and all going well you will be standing outside for at least 2 minutes when the fire services arrive - unless, of course, as the story goes, at a certain Scottish airport were it will be a wee bit longer because they get their kit on before getting in the fire truck - H&S say it's too dangerous to get dressed in the truck on the way to the accident.

The airport rules, of course, come from the days when aviation was developing and crashes were frequent, the let down aids were primitive, the aircraft design standards were few, petrol was used in big radial engines etc - we didn't have TCAS, GPWS, Synthetic vision, GPS, turbine/jet engines, radar, etc.

The rules are still stuck in the 1930s and we're 80 years down the road but no public servant is going to make what would be considered a career and pension threatening move and remove all these onerous, out of date, requirements.

Be a shame to have all that "safety" in place and still get hit by a meteorite crossing the ramp - should have worn the yellow jacket !! :O

Just an aside, A320s / B737s etc service airports daily in Australia with not only no RFF but no ATC of any kind - they have done the safety analysis and believe statistically there is no case to answer.

[dont overfil]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7236/7170973934_ac097d84ef_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/66461/7170973934/)

Other parts of the world can manage with more modest fire cover. Notice the two red barrels on wheels. Several airlines offer a scheduled service daily to here with up to Saab 340/Challenger size aircraft.

D.O.

[Crash one]

Just an aside, A320s / B737s etc service airports daily in Australia with not only no RFF but no ATC of any kind - they have done the safety analysis and believe statistically there is no case to answer.

I didn't know that someone actually had the brain power to do that.
When was the last time a life was saved by any AFS in any country?
Are they equipped to enter a burning A320 & could they do anything to improve evacuation?
No doubt to suggest such a barbaric idea as to remove the AFS would be political sewerside, & would never be considered in a civilised society like ours.

[FREDAcheck]

...political sewerside...
Is that when a politician kills himself by... no, I don't even want to think about it.

[Crash one]

Yes that's exactly what I meant.

[neutron]

Quite a long piece on BBC Alba News last night. On BBC iPlayer. Starts about 15 mins in:

BBC iPlayer - An Là: 05/03/2013 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01qv33x/An_La_05_03_2013/)

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Delusional, or desperately trying to hold on to their (non) jobs?

WW

[fisbangwollop]

Hopefully the boys at Oban can do a better job than this.....watch video to the end.......it could have been a whole lot worse, especially as it was a friend of mine flying the aircraft!!

Two injured as chopper crashes near Wilson Airport - YouTube

[scottish_ppl]

Quite a long piece on BBC Alba News last night. On BBC iPlayer. Starts about 15 mins in:

BBC iPlayer - An Là: 05/03/2013

Nice little piece about a nice little airport, thanks for the link :ok:

[mad_jock]

Aye you can get there and back in a day.

Bigger aircraft my left bum cheek though. Maybe a tri-lander.

Its the lack of instrument approaches which is going to kill as a commercial service.

I suppose you could get a Let410 in.

[maxred]

Way, way back on this thread I posted a conversation I had with a local who had pitched up, not long after the airport had opened.

The local rag had ran a piece about RYR commencing flights, possibly, and he was interested to know when they would start. We told him that once they had excavated and removed the hill just beyond the caravan park, then all would be ok.

When does the work start was his reply:eek:

Just shows what people are dealing with as they go about their daily tasks:p

[Good Business Sense]

One interviewee said "it was very convenient" - it's not convenient for the tax payer to subside his seat to the tune of £6-800 to do whatever he does.

[maxred]

It's the society we have created. They do not see it as their own money.

They see it as right. Ask them to subsidise it from their own pocket. Well do you honestly think there would be a bloody air service at 900 quid a ticket. Eh, no. All right if the taxpayer funds it to the tune of 1.2 million, per annum that is.

[scottish_ppl]

A fraction of the subsidy paid to your local bus and train company last year....

Should we shut all of them down too, or is it only fragile rural communities you'd like to take a pot-shot at :hmm:

You should be out there pushing your own local council to build you a nice little airport, not enviously sniping at the one that did :ok: Beats flying from a soggy field in Englandshire any day :)

[gasax]

Scottish I'd love to think that was a tongue in check comment - but given your earlier comments I doubt you have that level of intellect.

If you need an in understanding as to why much of the UK population want to cut Scotland free and watch it sink into a position which makes Iceland and Ireland look solvent - just look at the stupidity of yuor comment.

p.s. are you a council employee?

[PH-UKU]

Investment in aviation infrastructure seems to work in Norway. Then again I guess they've not spunked billions away on illegal wars and WMD. Remind me again ...basket case Iceland's current deficit in 2012 was 3.4% of GDP, the UK is 6.0% and Scotland is 2.3%.

Ho hum.

[mad_jock]

I miss read that as fraggle local communities.

Aye it works in Norway but then again you pay over 50% tax there.

Also as well even the northern norway runways are placed where you can get an instrument approach into them.

[abgd]

Is it worth a proportion of a reasonable landing fee? To me, yes.


From the UK national careers website:

Job profiles. Firefighter. Hours. 42 per week. Starting salary. £21,157 + per year
.... with other fire services and institutions, such as the British Airports Authority, ...


If a full-time fireman earns 20-30,000 a year, we could use £50,000 as a guesstimate of how much it costs to employ a fireman for a year. I suspect this would be low, by the time you've taken into account equipment costs etc...

Let's say for the sake of argument that all ten of the firefighters are employed half-time, it might cost £250,000 to provide a fire service for at most 1900 movements (2004 figure) which would be £130 per movement.

You could argue about how this would be shared between Bigear's spamcan and the commercial flights, but either way I don't see how it could be incorporated as part of a 'reasonable landing fee' that I would personally be willing to pay. Even if I'm 50% too high in my back-of-the envelope calculation.

[scottish_ppl]

Wow, that was slow, almost a whole 20 minutes before gasax demonstrated his superior intellect with that well reasoned little diatribe :E

Norway does indeed do many things better than us, unlike the UK they are about the only country that properly managed their oil and gas for the long term benefit of their people.

Closer to home the Shetland inter island flights (subsidised: cue shock, horror...) are a pretty good model as well.

[PH-UKU]

Hear hear.

[Good Business Sense]

Oh dear, oh dear Scottish_ppl, unfortunately my local council did build a nice little airport - they spent over £10m on it and have lost £1-2m on it every year since they eventually managed to get it finished - unfortunately, all the thousands of commercial aircraft movements mentioned in the "business plan" never turned up - you might know the airport I'm talking about !

Perhaps you haven't seen the cuts required by the council this year - £40m - talk of 700 council jobs to go with a serious impact on the care of the elderly and schools - so, yes I do care about the subsidy of the ticket by the Scottish government and, in addition, the money lost on the airport by the council.

You might not be aware but the airport doesn't need to be licensed - if you want to know why you might like to read bit more of this thread.

Yes, you're right there are fragile communities around and many of them are not on islands.

[scottish_ppl]

Sounds like we have differing opinions on whether airport infrastructure is a valuable community asset worthy of its share of a council budget, like the many other items that compete for the spend available.

It is however a well argued point and does not stoop to the usual level of vitriol towards the airport staff that continually appears on this thread from many posters that I personally find so distasteful on what is supposed to be a pilots forum.

It's a great facility, the more it gets used, the less likely we are to lose it. So I'm with the supporters, not the cynics: full marks to ABC for giving it a go, and I hope it keeps going.:ok:

[mad_jock]

The Shetland flights arn't payed for out of tax payers money though.

They are payed for out of the rent for Sullom Voe. So the money doesn't come from central funds.

They also employ the local kids at over 10 quid an hour to cut grass during the summer so that they will come back from university and hopefully settle there after graduating. The northern Isles economys is nowhere near that of a declining fishing/crofting community on the west coast.

You will loose it in the current form. There is no way that amount of expenditure can be justified when they are shutting down schools, old folks homes and reducing health care in the area.

[maxred]

p.s. are you a council employee?

Given some of his comments he may well be, certainly appears to have all of the credentials required.

1. Not one clue about reality.
2. The Scottish fried envy disease.
3. Take from the rich, give to the poor, fragile local communities. Eh, most are estates owned by very rich, outsiders.
4. Lets set out with a business plan, and we will budget 1 million pounds. Get it ALL wrong and spend 12 million pounds. Lets then cover it all up and blame someone else shall we.

As a final point Scottish, the islanders were given the air service, heavily subsidised by taxpayers money, and at 65 quid, they deemed it too expensive, and continued to get the ferry.

So we now have for our fragile community, a subsidised ferry service, a subsidised air service, a subsidised bus service, and for all I know, a heavily subsidised train service.

Oh, and a 12 million pounds little airport:ugh:

[scottish_ppl]

Ah well, the reasoned arguments didn't last long. :D

So maxred, the rural affairs expert from the lovely cultured west coast metropolis of Glasgow, what was the taxpayers subsidy to SPT last year?
I suppose it was cheaper than Edinburgh's trams....:E

[maxred]

FWIW, I abhor the total and utter waste of subsidised buses, clogging up the streets of both our fair city, Glasgow, and the midden capital of Edinburgh.

I would also agree that the Island communities, the true Island communities, need a level playing field in terms of accessibility.

However, this is a Private Flying forum, and we would be best to stick to the relevance of the debate, Oban Follies.

Whatever the view on Oban, this has been a public finance fiasco, delivering not a great deal, to anyone. Other than an unrealistic vision, of Island community air service. Non?

[topoverhaul]

The shame is that the funding came on the premise that it gave 10 people a vision of a job for life with the council. The reality is that there is no job without continuing subsidy and I for one would rather see that funding given to something worthwhile like schools or care for the elderly. The air service can continue without expensive fire cover at an airfield which is unlicensed.

[piperboy84]

12 Mil put into the airport and a couple of mil a year to run it !

For that kinda money I have a more efficient way of making sure the islanders have prompt transport service. 12 mil would buy about 250 decent used 172’s and the annual few mil field operating costs could buy them the avgas, so dish out a Cessna and a ppl to each family on the islands and tell them to have at it

The only issue may be the better educated and more style conscious amongst them may demand a Maule instead of Cessna :p

[India Four Two]

The only issue may be the better educated and more style conscious amongst them may demand a Maule instead of Cessna

pb84,
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)

[maxred]

Whilst we have a soap box on this, I may as well get one other issue aired.

My understanding is that D.W. and his seaplane venture tried his damndest to provide a perfect service from Glasgow City Centre to Oban.
All he got was a bucketfull of HASTLE from ABC, MOR'd constantly for all manner of minor 'infringements'. Infringements of free and fresh air, I might add.

With a bit of common sense applied, a seaplane service, would have been the perfect solution. for ALL of the islands, not just Coll and Colonsay, who both got their 500 mts of tarmac. Any subsidy for a service like this would have been wholly appreciated as providing something tangible, to all of the community.

And I am aware of all the issues surrounding single engine IFR, but the Islander is VFR only, so no issue with a seaplane service.

[piperboy84]

for ALL of the islands


Not sure a seaplane would fit the requirements, Coll Colonsay, Tiree obviously have nice strips, Jura is for the most part is owned by a gazzilionair and he is putting his own version of Heathrow in, Islay has its own field, as do the Hebridies, Skye has the bridge to the mainland, which pretty much leaves Rum Egg and muck and how many people,if any, live on them.

[maxred]

Agree, but there is more to these communities than the residents.

With some decent and reliable travel arrangements, tourism can flourish.

Not the hotel/pub lunch type tourism, but day travellers, eco tours, nature treks etc.

Maybe the inhabitants dont want that, but then dont squeal for subsidised air travel, nor expensive airports.

Look we all know it is difficult, but with a decent joined up thinking approach to travel, then maybe some communities will flourish again.

I note the bridge etc, but some folk just do not want to spend four days in a car trying to get there:8

[mad_jock]

The islander is IFR its just that the airport can only be VFR.

[Good Business Sense]

500 metre strip = almost only aircraft is Islander = circa 60 years old = piston = doesn't fly on one... Ok, to avoid the arguement, we'll say doesn't fly very well on one = loves ice = VFR operation = avgas = price of avgas = demise of avgas

With nothing new in terms of twin engine coming along I smile (fondly) at the thought of the future with the 80-100 year old Islanders flying the flag for remote community support and Scottish Tourism. Buffalo Joe will have a bit of competition.

Let's not get into a discussion about how good the Islander is/was - an incredible machine in many ways - that's not the issue.

[mad_jock]

Let410 would have no problem and neither would a twotter or a 1900D.

The airport is just not suited to IFR flights and as such will never be suitable for reliable schedual service. However much people would like to kid themselves.

Unlicense the airfield. Get rid of trumpton. Put a coffee shop in the terminal with local Art for sale and you might be able to keep it running until the runway breaks up again.

Tri-lander to GLA maybe a possibilty unless the head wind gets to much and there is a danger of people loosing the will to live and jumping out half way.

[Johnm]

Aeroplanes are not the issue. Trislanders run a bus service from Southampton to Alderney in similarly exciting weather conditions.

The Islanders are available with turbines and there's lots of other possibilites as outlined above.

The issue is the gross over engineering of the airfield operations and infrastructure and a stubborn determination to do nothing about it.

The airfield could never be IFR without a(nother) realignment of the runway and then only landing from the South with a go around over the water.

[maxred]

The issue is the gross over engineering of the airfield operations and infrastructure and a stubborn determination to do nothing about it.

Spot on:ok:

However, there is a problem. The do nothing about it bit.

In the background, ABC, have to payback a pretty hefty European loan/subsidy, which would have been free gratis, if they had hit the 5000 passenger movements, which was the initial business plan foundation:)

Now we all know, and knew all along, that the fory five and three quarters passenger movements per month, the reality, is the case. So, EUROPEAN CLAWBACK.

They will be paying this back for some time, so can you imagine the pooh, if they were to close/alter/unlicense, a strip that they are currently paying back, effectively on tic....:mad:

Beam me up Scotty........

[dont overfil]

BBC News - Skye commercial flights plan 'could cost up to £15.3m' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-21715776)

Broadford Skye. If this goes ahead we should get this thread up to 100 pages.

[Johnm]

dont overfil BBC News - Skye commercial flights plan 'could cost up to £15.3m'

Broadford Skye. If this goes ahead we should get this thread up to 100 pages.


There are some interesting issues here which we've also see in Alderney. Guernsey which operates the Alderney airport has imposed some security and runway end safety area requirements through interpreting guidelines as rules. Broadford could operate with no alterations except a couple of portacabins and a part time fire engine as indeed could Oban.

[maxred]

Obviously the suggested steering group, will not contain one individual who is actually involved in aviation, nor one idividual who will take any reference of the Oban fiasco, nor one individual who has an ounce of entrepreneurial skill.


You could almost begin writing the bloody script.

Astonishing.

Offset by expected revenue of 150k:eek:

Perhaps an e mail giving them the landline number of ABC at Lochgilphead, would in the long run be the best, and cheapest, option available to all.:mad:

[NorthSouth]

I abhor the total and utter waste of subsidised buses, clogging up the streets of both our fair city, Glasgow, and the midden capital of EdinburghEh? Not known for my ability to "be in touch" admittedly, but this one really got me. Do elaborate!
NS
PS: yeah and I don't mean the midden bit - I understand that!

[NorthSouth]

maxred:Obviously the suggested steering group, will not contain one individual who is actually involved in aviation, nor one idividual who will take any reference of the Oban fiasco, nor one individual who has an ounce of entrepreneurial skillWell, don't assume too much too quickly. There are moves afoot to do proper assessments of this and related developments. Skye's the next great challenge. If there's a way to apply the lessons (aka the things Cap'n WW was telling us all along) of Oban, Skye is it.
NS

[maxred]

NS, were you not aware that the vast majority of public bus services received public subsidy?

In Glagsow city centre, you generally cannot move for hundreds of buses, all attempting to get somewhere, all with an average of three people on board.

The best result was one evening in early 2013, when I managed to count 58, yes 58, buses lining Renfield Street, from the bus terminus, to Union Street.

I was walking down, some of the buses had no one aboard, except the driver, all going somewhere mind you. This at 4.00 in the afternoon.

The best bit was when Keith Brown, the Scottish Transport Minister, came on BBC attempting to explain why the carbon emissions target had not been met, in fact it had failed miserably, and he actually blamed the recent spell of cold weather, and people putting their heating on for longer.

When asked if he was aware that Hope Street in Glasgow is one of the most polluted streets in Europe, he suggested that the equipment might be faulty, and wrongly placed.

Utterly priceless::E:E:*

[scottish_ppl]

Excellent news, sounds like a good chance of public sector investment to provide another quality airport like Oban for the Isle of Skye.

Option 2 of the consultants report sounds good to me, new extended runway and an ILS, for an 11 million pound investment. :ok:

Far better use of public money than a 58 bus traffic jam in Renfield Street :E

[mad_jock]

Stop talking ****e PPL

Hope fully it will be 2 fire men and one FISO check in and baggage loader like the rest of europe for sub 19 seats.

BYW I shifted 60 pax today through 3 airports with 3 airport staff per airport no security. Each day we have a morning shift and evening so about 90 pax per day. I reckon we do more per week than oban does in three months. The combined trumpton count over three airports is less than Oban. And thats running a proper perf A turbo prop.

[Good Business Sense]

"60 pax today" - that's almost as much as their best summer MONTH. Winter months are too embarrassing to discuss !

[piperboy84]

What to spend the public’s money on??

I feel if we are going to spunk it on marginally justifiable stuff then let’s splurge it on ourselves.

I read a story about the UK governments decision to install some type of hydro generator in Afghanistan as part of our “nation building” efforts (Note: our tax money, somebody else’s nation) , The purchase price for the unit was about 80M quid and unsurprisingly it was ordered from a Chinese engineering group, after a huge mission that involved a convoy of trucks and thousands of troops escorting/guarding it for the 2 week journey to the site, all under the watchful eye of the Taliban, it was installed then attacked and damaged.

So if we go ahead and spend money on projects here at home, even ones of dubious fiscal worth like multi millions for an airport at Skye it’s better than doing it somewhere else, coz the bottom line is no matter how up **** creek the country is financially the politicians are going spunk money on ****e, I'm just glad it’s our ****e every now and then

[Captain Smithy]

A good summary of things piperboy84.

Smithy

[abgd]

I disagree. Whether public money is spent at home or abroad, I can't see that subsidising what is essentially a very niche hobby for the relatively well off can be justified. There are 20,000 non-professional PPLs in the country - I would be willing to bet that there are more clarinet players, or more scuba divers by far. Yet I don't hear about Oban scuba club being sponsored to the tune of millions, even though I would wager that diving will bring in more to the local economy than aviation does.

What general aviation actually needs is not subsidy, but a sympathetic hearing. It would be far cheaper to protect airfields from brownfield development than it would be to continually subsidise marginal ones.

[Good Business Sense]

The acid test:

Oban Licensed - the islander flies to the islands, helicopters come and go, PPLs enjoy a wonderful little airport

Oban Unlicensed - the islander flies to the islands, helicopters come and go, PPLs enjoy a wonderful little airport

The difference..... a lot of money

[dont overfil]

I disagree. Whether public money is spent at home or abroad, I can't see that subsidising what is essentially a very niche hobby for the relatively well off can be justified. There are 20,000 non-professional PPLs in the country - I would be willing to bet that there are more clarinet players, or more scuba divers by far. Yet I don't hear about Oban scuba club being sponsored to the tune of millions, even though I would wager that diving will bring in more to the local economy than aviation does.

What general aviation actually needs is not subsidy, but a sympathetic hearing. It would be far cheaper to protect airfields from brownfield development than it would be to continually subsidise marginal ones.

abdg
I think you are missing Piperboys point.

Broadford is perfectly useable now for GA if a little expensive. The money only needs spent for a scheduled service, not for GA. But hey, if GA gets a nicer place to fly to it's a bonus for us. Unlike the millions spent on the Chinese generator.

D.O.

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

As far as GA is concerned,the issue is not so much the council spends, it's the inevitable bullsh*t that comes along with it!


WW

[abgd]

The recent history though is that when airports are upgraded, as a general rule they become less amenable to GA.

[Johnm]

The syndrome seems to be delusions of Gatwick or a tendency to over-engineer response to guidelines and rules. This is a British (not UK alone)disease not suffered much by the rest of the EU. For a classic example compare and contrast Guernsey with La Rochelle..........

[Captain Smithy]

abgd I think piperboy84's point is that if politicians are hell-bent on pumping us all for tax then frittering it away on crap then at least it is nice for us aviation folks to enjoy the fruits of Government waste for a change instead of seeing it pissed away for no benefit of ours on the usual crap like immigrants, criminals, Europe, benefits, trams, windmills, hair-brained and warped ideologically-driven policies and ego projects, signs duplicated in Heedrum Hodrum that nobody pays attention to, computer systems that don't function properly or are just plain inadequate, foreign "aid" to rich emerging superpowers, Olympics, Methadone for junkies, need I go on.

So yes, it is nice that instead of all the scum getting all the freebies, we eventually get something to enjoy for ourselves. Because let's face it, they aren't going to stop their spending addiction :suspect:

[abgd]

I think I get Piperboy's point. I still disagree with it. Firstly, I don't believe that we are benefiting. Secondly, a waste of money is still a waste of money - even if it were to be frittered on aviation, we could think of far better ways in which to spend it.

[piperboy84]

we could think of far better ways in which to spend it

For sure, "we could" but WE don't have the possession of " public chequebook", some expense swindling, party hack, lobbyist bought and paid for, never had a real job, sanctimonious f*&wit has, and the last thing he/she gives a rats ass about is what "WE" want regardless of who voted them in, there snouts are now at the trough and they ain't gonna stop gorging till were completely skint.

Exhibit A:
The Conga has billions in natural resources, we are going to give them 700M quid over 4 years in aid, at the same time the Congolese president has sold of billions of state owned diamond and other mining concessions to "businessmen" based in the British Virgin Island for pennies on the pound. An guesss who makes up the shortfall for the the destitute citizens? the usual chumps, you and me!

http://ericjoyce.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/summary-5-5m-loss-to-congolese-people-through-questionable-mining-deals.pdf

I know its a bit off topic but when I hear the government is spending money on dubious stuff in this country, I say great, coz the money is getting spunked anyway.

Well that's my rant for the day:)

[dont overfil]

A colleague visited Glenforsa yesterday and reported that everything seems back to normal.

DH is there as usual although the responsibility for the airfield inspection is now down to an employee who visits daily from Oban to declare the strip fit for use.:ugh:

For those not familiar with the geography that will require a return trip on on the ferry and a 10 mile each way road trip. Probably takes the best part of a day!!!

D.O.

[piperboy84]

I will be going up the Sound of Mull tomorrow in the boat , think i may drop in at Glenforsa and have a butchers.

[cessnapete]

Why dont they let the guy who runs the hotel on the strip do the inspection. He's a pilot and lives there. Or is that too easy a solution!

[mad_jock]

Don't be silly.

There are more than a few people on the island that have the experience and the knowledge to know if the runway is usable or not.

But politically they have to use a none pilot who has no experience and very little knowledge and get them to spend a day travelling there and back.

The fact that most pilots will phone the hotel anyway and if B says its not in good condition will not come what ever the Council employee says.

I can see there could be a conflict of interest with punters for the hotel but I think the hotel is in there for the long term. And its not in their interest to risk the airfields status.

[Bigglesthefrog]

Lets not winge too much about who does the inspection or where he comes from, because at least the airfield's open. In this day and age with the media running the show, and the banning brigade in full swing it's a miracle that it's back to business again.
With a group of three other aeroplanes I flew into Glenforsa last year and stayed two nights in the hotel, whilst flying round the islands during the day. I was thrilled to land our Piper Arrow on the beach at Barra and later at Oban where the Airfield fire service very kindly rinsed the salt off for us.
I have to say that after reading some awful verbal attacks on these guys at Oban airport here on this forum, I'm amazed that they could even be bothered to wish us the time of day.
But no, they were the nicest people you could ever want to meet going way beyond the call of duty. Later, when one Cessna from our team burst a tyre on landing and couldn't taxi off the runway, they put their backs into it (literally) and got the aircraft into a safe position and then helped to remove the wheel so we could get it repaired the next day.
So I'm not accepting any bad mouthing of the people at Oban airport. The politicians are fair game for complaint, but not the people who simply do their job at the airport.
I'll finish by saying just what a wonderful time we all had on our (at times IMC)
tour of the islands. Many thanks to Brendan and Allison who looked after us most splendidly and thank you very much Scotland!!:ok:

[The Original GF]

To be fair, the Council Guys (graves dept) only come from Tobermory every Morning to inspect the runway, a 22 mile round trip. They were trained by Tom Eddlestone who is the Chief Fire Officer at Oban Airport.


OGF

[mad_jock]

To be honest that's more than likely the best council employees to have a clue about grass and being able to get vehicles on grass without getting them stuck. One of my diving mates at Uni used to work with them during the summer holidays years ago. You don't want to take them on at drinking whisky!.

I suspect they would have had more clue than the fire services at a hard runway airport anyway even without "training".

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Tom Eddlestone, isn't he the one who used 6 inch nails to hold down the turf around the numbers at Glenforsa? :D

WW

[mad_jock]

WW you fud.

I need a new keyboard now.

[crt86t]

I was dismayed to learn from various aviation forum sources that the AGCS operator at Glenforsa is apparently no longer allowed to use the published radio frequency. Bearing in mind that while all airfields are inspected in the morning (debris, ruts,rabbit holes, wind socks, obstructions, etc.), flying conditions can change drastically during the day possibly later rendering them unsafe for aircraft to land. Current advice can be critical for safe operation and this MUSTbe given on the radio if conditions warrant it. Also, a pilot departing needs to know that his radio is working prior to taking off as his next call would normally be to Oban or Scottish Information as he proceeds en-route and this would not be possible if his radio or headset had failed or was not working correctly on the ground.
I realise that Glenforsa ispublished everywhere in general aviation documentation as PPR (Prior PermissionRequired and this has always has been so from Mr. Howitt), and now additionally from theCouncil, but with all due respect, unless the Council has a person who is aware of the aviation implications for any particular airfield, this PPR could be completely misleading and potentially dangerous.

For example, regarding to the“accident” last September, a totally satisfactory morning airfield inspection would have had absolutely no bearing at all on the extremely poor airmanship of the pilot who crashed regardless of ANY advice given. Glenforsa has definitely suffered through no fault of its own due to the pilot’s mistake (or incompetence).

Before I personally fly in to Glenforsa again I would like comments and re-assurance as to the qualifications of exactly who in the Council can give “current aviation conditions” to me (or any other pilot) other than someone who may have inspected the runway many hours earlier.

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

crt86t

While I completely agree that PPR should be given by someone with aviation experience, I find your forthright views on the 'accident' interesting.

Were you present when the accident happened?

Did you hear the A/G transmission leading up to the accident or have you heard the recording of same?

Are your opinions based on the accident report produced by DH and Tom Eddlestone Chief Fire Officer at Oban Airport?

WW

[Maoraigh1]

Flying into Ashaig (Broadford), the PPR is with a Highland Council Roads Dept. office person. Flying into Dornoch, no PPR. The weather conditions are the pilot's responsibility.
No one at an airfield will know the currency/skill/tiredness of an arriving pilot.
An A/G operator should have no responsibility for an accident unless he failed to warn of an obstruction he knew of.
However a US court decision against a Cessna Carb. maker, (in a current thread on the Rumours & News Forum -Jury awards $26 million to families of Arlington plane crash victims) gives reason for whoever cover A&B for third party risks to be paranoid.

[gasax]

Whilst there are many scare stories regarding liability insurance they are just that at least in the UK.

Insurance for grass strips is still 'relatively' affordable. Which tells you that the claim history is very modest, insurance companies are very quick to respond to losing money by jacking up premiums!

I read the AAIB report on this 'accident', given the lack of injuries it is the usual pilot commentry and looks like a classic wheel barrow landing following a bounce.

ABC's response is pretty typical of ABC, close the airfield, train 7 (yes 7!) people to carry out airfield inspections and generally ensure that no blame can ever be pointed at anyone....

Given the Oban fiasco it would be wishful thinking to expect anything else. As far as having to have a/g at Mull? Well we never used to! Over recent years DH has become very cautious in his advice - having seen tired or inept pilots make very lurid arrivals and depatures. Does a/g add a lot? If you know the place or understand the crosswind issues no, otherwise it must help. But that means ABC would have to support some form of decision - so it is not going to happen.

I would love ABC to end up leasing the strip to the hotel as part of their plan for a sustainable future for the strip - but given the politics I do n't suppose that will happen. Still at least the strip is open for the moment - given the general situation it is probably the best we can hope for......

[hoodie]

However a US court decision against a Cessna Carb. maker, (in a current thread on the Rumours & News Forum -Jury awards $26 million to families of Arlington plane crash victims) gives reason for whoever cover A&B for third party risks to be paranoid.

Well, there's absolutely no justification for that reasoning, given that A&B are not in the jurisdiction of the US legal system. That's a serious point, BTW - basing cover on fear of legal repercussions that don't apply to you would be daft!

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Does a/g add a lot?


Well, having a fully equipped and manned (personed) control tower at Oban did not prevent a wheels up incident, neither did it prevent an aircraft departing the runway and ending up just short of the fuel storage facility, so the answer is probably no.

And plundering the public purse to pay council workers to drive their van up and down the runway at Glenforsa every morning while getting paid double and triple time on weekends and bank holidays does not add anything either.

It's a real shame that there is no one in Argyll and Bute Council or the Scottish Goverment who have the balls to put an end to this clusterf***k.

WW

[dont overfil]

If A&BC think that by stopping David transmitting on VHF is going to be some kind of arse covering exercise they are wrong.

My buddies nearly all have those fancy headsets with bluetooth. They can just phone him.:rolleyes:

D.O.

[mad_jock]

Why on earth are they driving on it?

Do they not know that tyre groves in the grass can flip an aircraft?

Walk up and down it and dig a heel in yes but to run a van up and down it is just plain stupid.

[Crash one]

it is just plain stupid.

Isn't that what A&BC are trying to achieve?

[The Original GF]

Because the Glenforsa Airfield manual produced by Tom Eddlestone says that you can drive on the runway at 30 mph, the manual also contains pictures of grass.

OGF

[Cows getting bigger]

Bring back Maggie. She would have sorted out this shower.

[NorthSouth]

Maggie who?

[Johnm]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because the Glenforsa Airfield manual produced by Tom Eddlestone says that you can drive on the runway at 30 mph, the manual also contains pictures of grass.

Hmmm, it might be interesting to get a copy, I don't suppose it's easily obtainable.....

[mad_jock]

Trying to secure grass with 6" nails

Permitting road tyres on a grass runway never mind at 30mph.

Who is this clown and why is he in a "safety" position in an airport.

I hope any pilot that see's said vehicle on the runway MOR's/CHIRP's this fact and provides pictures then maybe we can get this stupidity stopped.

Could you imagine what would happen to you if you got caught on an Raf grass strip in a landy or car, a half hour session of waterboarding would been deemed getting off lightly. Never mind a truck.

And god help you at any of the gliding sites if you take a car onto the landing strip.

Or is it a planned set of actions to sabotage the place?

How about this for the manual

"The runway should be walked in normal footwear (shoes/boots) and the give of the turf assessed. Across the length of the runway 4 times 1m either side of the centre line and 1m in from the edges.

A firm feel with no give or moisture present should be reported as good with runway serviceable

A firm feel with morning dew which is expected to evaporate should also be reported as good runway serviceable.

If the ground is wet a heel strike should be made at 20 meter intervals. If the heel penetrates more than 2 cm this is an indication that the runway is unfit for use. This is for any part of the runway centre and edges.

Up to 2cm if the hole fills with water again this indicates the runway is unfit for use.

If the hole doesn't fill with water the runway should be reported as caution-soft.

If the centre of the runway is firm and the edges soft this is to be reported Centre firm, runway edges caution soft. If the centre is soft and the edges firm the runway is to be reported as soft caution.

If there has been no precipitation since the previous walk a visual inspection for damage and FOD is only required. "

Anyone else thing of anything else to add?

[gasax]

No, no, no MJ -- you'll never make a cooncil employee!

Remember these guys do not know what grass is - they need a picture.

Try this http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/moderngov/documents/s74548/Appendix%20A%20GLENFORSA%20AIRFIELD%20INSPECTIONS.pdf


The reason these people work for the cooncil is ..... where else could they work?

[mad_jock]

Now we can see the inspecting instructions I take it back about being a clown.

That is not to bad although I would still say that the driving of road vehicles on the runway surface should be prohibited.

There is no requirement for it and nothing to be gain by doing it.

The tyres on an aircraft have a completely different load pattern from a car. So giving people the option of driving up and down the thing can only damage the surface for no useful demonstration of runway condition.

There is not much point of telling people to stop driving on it after the damage has been done by rutting.

[cockney steve]

There is not much point of telling people to stop driving on it after the damage has been done by rutting.

Randy jocks!...what was it ?- If it Flies, Floats or Fxxxs, -rent it?

[piperboy84]

MJ If the heel penetrates more than 2 cm this is an indication that the runway is unfit for use. This is for any part of the runway centre and edges.


You sure about that, I would have thought just about any bit of grass whether wet or dry would have 2cm of give getting heeled.

[mad_jock]

2 cm of penitration below surrounding soil not the grass level. If it just flattens the grass your ok

[Good Business Sense]

Argyll & Bute Council outside consultants for grass cutting rota
(http://forargyll.com/2013/04/anger-at-councils-latest-spending-folly/)

[gasax]

Cooncils!

In my experience with auditing organisations it is almost always true that there is never just 'one thing wrong'. Once you dig down and find an incompetent or malfunctioning process you can usually scan along the organisation and find these things are endemic.

So it is with 'cooncils' a lot of the time. The lack of competence, over qualified staff seeking only to reduce their workload and cover their a$$es and no effective managment review or control are pretty general. The airport fiasco demonstrated the councillors belong in Trumpton, not local government - so this sort of nonsense comes as no surprise.

It is just such a shame that we are all somewhat reconcilled to the fact that councils are so wasteful and incompetent....

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

According to this :
http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/modern...NSPECTIONS.pdf


　
If the ground is deemed as firm under foot, then a car sized vehicle may be driven on the runway at a speed of 30mph.

According to DH the vehicle of choice is a crew cab tipper truck with 3 pax and a load of gear in the back.
After a whole hour of training, can these guys be expected know the difference between a Mooney and a C180 or a Cub and a Cirrus when it comes to deciding if the runway is operational or not?

WW

[C172Navigator]

So does this mean we now need to call Oban for PPR before going to Glenforsa?

I love the bit in the manual about clapping at the birds. That is bound to keep them at bay until the next inspection 24 hours later :ugh:

[Flyingmac]

I take it then, that the inspections are to determine whether, in the event of a pilot stuffing it in on the nosewheel hard enough to remove said wheel, the aircraft is likely to flip?

If that's the case, no grass strip is safe.:rolleyes:

Reading the 172 pilot's version of events, he'd have wiped out the nose gear even if it had been tarmac.

[The Original GF]

Development and Infrastructure Services


Manse Brae, Lochgilphead, Argyll, PA31 8RD


Tel:

(01546) 604190





e mail :

[email protected]

Website:

www.argyll-bute.gov.uk





Ask For:

Moya Ingram

Our Ref:

800/01

Your Ref:



Date:

15/04/2013









Dear Stakeholder

OBAN AIRPORT CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE
ARGYLL AND THE ISLES AIR SERVICES

Argyll and Bute Council are keen to work with business stakeholders and the local community to inform and consult on developments and the air services operated out of Oban Airport.

I would therefore like to invite you to a meeting on the evening of 22 May 2013, which will be held in the Conference Room of the Scottish Association for Marine Science offices at 7pm.

The purpose of this meeting is to establish Oban Airport Consultative Committee and I would be grateful for your representation and input into this Committee. It is anticipated that the Consultative Committee will meet at least three times a year.

The objectives of the Committee will be

· To enable the airport operator, communities in the vicinity of the aerodrome, local business representatives, aerodrome users and other interested parties to exchange information and ideas.
· To allow the concerns of interested parties to be raised and taken into account by the airport operator, with a genuine desire to resolve any issues that may emerge.
· To compliment the legal framework within which the airport operates.
· To provide a structured forum for discussion to make recommendations to the airport operator.
· To promote understanding about aerodrome operations more widely through dissemination of relevant information.
· To monitor the potential for environmental impact of the airport within the local community.
· To promote open and honest dialogue between the airport and the local community.
· To protect and enhance the interests of the users of the airport.
· To promote and enhance business opportunities between the airport and the local community.






I would be grateful if you could confirm your attendance at the above and please don’t hesitate to contact myself should you require any further details.



Yours sincerely,




MOYA INGRAM
STRATEGIC TRANSPORTATION MANAGER

[xrayalpha]

Prhaps she meant:

Complement!

Compliment vs Complement (http://www.dailywritingtips.com/compliment-vs-complement/)

[awqward]

Thanks for keeping us appraised! :O

They could certainly improve there spilling....

[maxred]

Well, on one hand they are trying.

On the other hand, every random with no home to go to will pitch up, and every drunk, having been thrown out the local hostelries at five, being too pissed to stand up, will probably stagger along.

The danger here is we are again attempting to make one giant molehill out of, well out of, one very small airfield.

The next thing will be noise abatement procedures, anti terrorist fencing, and full body scanners for the few Island travellers that continue to use the flight service. Oh God..........

By the way, what does a Strategic Transportation Manager actually do? Other than the obvious.

[flybymike]

Prhaps she meant:

Complement!


On the contrary, I think they really are looking for compliments...

[S205-18F]

Maxred I think they get paid a lot for not a lot!! :E

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

By the way, what does a Strategic Transportation Manager actually do?


Anything her boss (Sandy Mactaggart) wants her to.:E



WW

[maxred]

That will include then-

1. Go count the ferries.
2. Go count the local buses.
3. Go count the number of times a bicycle goes round the town centre roundabout.
4. How many traffic wardens do we have?
5. Oh, and please look into setting up
OBAN AIRPORT CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE
ARGYLL AND THE ISLES AIR SERVICES

Yeah, one of those......:hmm:

[Maoraigh1]

I'm not sure how early Oban closes on a Saturday, for PPR.

The 47th Fly-in will be the last Bank Holiday weekend of May (24th -26th) 2013. Local accommodation is limited so book early!

GLENFORSA OFFICAL CAA FREQUENCY IS 120.800
If not manned, make blind calls to Glenforsa Traffic on 120.800
Please note: NO other frequency must be used - no matter what you are told or have read in any flight guides!
Oban Airport now co-ordinate ALL arrivals at Glenforsa
For mandatory PPR please send proposed flight details regarding the Glenforsa 2013 Fly-In to:

[email protected] ([email protected])

or

telephone Oban Airport 01631 572 910

Please enclose details - pilot's name, type of a/c,pob's, date, ETA, where from.

[piperboy84]

Landed at Glenforsa today, great strip, great food and got a good laugh with the 3 old geezers that serve as ATC, Landing fee takers and also appeared to be auditioning for a remake of The last of the Summer Wine ! thanks for the hospitality and the laughs guys.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151612718841108&set=a.69509656107.71059.701826107&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151612718841108&set=a.69509656107.71059.701826107&type=1&theater

[The Original GF]

Glenforsa Webcam up and running again, apologies for the outage, we are awaiting arrival of upgraded 5mp camera which should be installed in the next couple of days. Thanks for all the emails and calls.

Glenforsa hotel Live Webcam (http://www.jkaydesign.co.uk/)



Brendan & Allison

[Flyingmac]

Not working for me. Some sort of Java glitch?

[Slopey]

Working here - you might need to update Java, or if you're using Chrome just click "Run this time" in the bar at the top if it complains.

[FREDAcheck]

Java plugins for browsers (any browser) have been identified as having many security issues. Google for it if you don't believe me. Many browsers now disable or remove Java by default. Personally, I would not recommend re-enabling it.

Note: this is Java, not Javascript. Java, bad and not likely to be fixed any time soon (even Oracle admit that). Javascript, well not always good, but not such a security risk.

[The Original GF]

Webcam software is from a reputable company (Stardot Technologies) the problem is caused by an previous Java update and solved by updating Java and clicking a box.

GF

[FREDAcheck]

Webcam software is from a reputable company (Stardot Technologies) the problem is caused by an previous Java update and solved by updating Java and clicking a box.
I'm not doubting the webcam software, but I do doubt Java browser plugins. Until Oracle address some fundamental security problems with Java, I really don't think it safe to enable Java in browsers.

[The Original GF]

New Glenforsa Webcam now available on Ipad and Iphone.

Glenforsa hotel Live Webcam (http://www.jkaydesign.co.uk/index.html)

GF

[helicopter-redeye]

Much wider view.:ok:

[PH-UKU]

Welcome back. Looks just like Plockton for the last 3 days ... (but without the pissing rain :( ) Maybe see you on Tues/Wed ....

[The Original GF]

We have added another webcam on Glenforsa Hotel site that looks across from Craignure on Mull towards Oban and Ben Nevis. Enjoy.

OGF

[140KIAS]

Hot off the press;

A notice that you have registered an interest in has been cancelled. The notice details are shown below.

Notice ID: JAN105556
Title: Airfield Operation- Glenforsa Aerodrome
Authority: Argyll and Bute Council

Reason:


No award made. Emma Graham.

[FREDAcheck]

140KIAS, I understand all the words in that notice you published, but I have a bit more difficulty with the the sentences and paragraphs.

Can you help interpret please?

Sorry, I'm sure if I kept up more it would make sense!

[NorthSouth]

It's a reference to a tender invitation put out by the council in January 2012 for "an organisation to operate Glenforsa Aerodrome". In May 2012 they advised that they had not been able to appoint anyone. This latest notice is just a final admission that the whole idea got nowhere, so the council will (presumably) continue to operate the airfield themselves.

Are they still doing the airfield inspections using lawn inspectors from Tobermory?

NS