Oban/Glenforsa News [Archive] - Page 4

Capt Whisky Whisky

23rd Dec 2010, 17:32

Xmas Greetings

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non addictive, gender neutral celebration of the Christmas holiday practiced with the most enjoyable traditions of religious persuasion or secular practices of your choice with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all .

I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2011, but not without due respect for the calendar of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make our country great (not to imply that Great Britain is necessarily greater than any other country) and without regard to the race, creed, colour, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.

By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms :

This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/him or others and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. The wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher .

Best Regards ( without prejudice )

Name withheld ( Privacy Act )

Oldpilot55

23rd Dec 2010, 19:23

Does this mean the fence will come down and things will return to what they once were... the best wee airfield in Scotland?

airpolice

23rd Dec 2010, 19:35

Could ABC close the airfield?

Legally, if they do have the power, then closing it is an option. No services, no need for it. No runway for the locals to fly from.

Nobody in power at ABC is going to suffer from that. So do the decent thing, come to a deal with the club and redo their lease to avoid the crazy situation that brought about their ability to build the fence. If they don't go along with that, then close the airfield.

Once a new agreement has been reached, ops can carry on free from worries.

Another option might be to close it and sell the land to PK to allow him to run his own airfield. No TUPE no issues, no licence, little or no fire cover, no bull****, just a friendly GA Airfield, that might just break even.

xrayalpha

23rd Dec 2010, 23:56

Where to I apply to buy it?

I have a big fortune and I would like to make a small fortune in aviation!

bad bear

24th Dec 2010, 00:28

Would it still be a suitable field for gliding with a winch, microlights and planes or has the surface been messed up with lights and sign boards all over the place?
bb

flybymike

24th Dec 2010, 08:18

Would it still be a suitable field for gliding with a winch, microlights and planes or has the surface been messed up with lights and sign boards all over the place?

The airfield is in excellent condition throughout; it ought to be, it has had millions thrown at it.

gasax

24th Dec 2010, 09:22

Whilst the surfaces are in excellent condition (although I wonder how long the lock block apron will last) the place has been pretty well messed up with lights and very large signs.

But it would be very easy to cut them off!

Gelande Strasse

24th Dec 2010, 09:54

Would it still be a suitable field for gliding with a winch, microlights and planes

....sounds like deja vu :cool:

GS

fisbangwollop

24th Dec 2010, 10:21

What ever the outcome I feel sorry for the present staff that find their jobs on the line especially at this festive time....what ever anyone says they have done their best to operate whilst being governed by a bunch of council numpties it appears....guys and gals it has been a pleasure to work with you during the past year or so and good luck to you all in the future. :cool::cool:

Johnm

24th Dec 2010, 12:16

The staff on the ground as well as Paul Keegan have been unfailingly helpful and courteous I too wish them all well.

blueandwhite

24th Dec 2010, 16:32

The staff on the ground as well as Paul Keegan have been unfailingly helpful and courteous I too wish them all well.

I only poped in a few times, but everyone was helpful and pleasant. Those that were a bit of a pain were only following the rules imposed by the book :ugh: Shame if they lose their jobs at no fault of their own.

Its sad that its come to this.

Hopefully there will still be a runway we can use when this is all over. And it would be real nice if there was still a source of jammie dodgers. ;)

Say again s l o w l y

24th Dec 2010, 16:54

This could either be the worst or the best thing that could happen to Oban.

If it closes for good, that will be a tragedy. If it is handed over to people who know what they are doing and left to prosper, then this would be a very nice Christmas present indeed.

Somehow, I don't think the council will allow it to close completely. I imagine that it will be handed over to someone else to run for quite an attractive price and if Paul doesn't nab it, then I can imagine someone else who would.

'India-Mike

24th Dec 2010, 18:34

SAS I would like to agree with you but you're obviously a glass half full type, whereas I'm a glass half empty man. I think it's the end of the aerodrome and with it the only reliable and useable fuel stop between Prestwick and Inverness.:{

gasax

24th Dec 2010, 18:37

I suspect that the very last person the airfield will go to is Paul. Small town politics, particularly in the West coast where the sins of ancestors 3 hundred years ago have not been forgotten would mean that the council would bulldozr the entire site rather than let their arch critic back ib control.

A very sad situation. To those talking about ACS and other operators - be careful what you wish for - ACS particularly are of the same mindset as ABC - a right bunch of 'jobsworths' - but in the private sector!

I would love it to be possible to 'turn the clock back' and Paul to be in charge - but it isn't going to happen - more's the pity!!!

maxred

24th Dec 2010, 19:27

ACS:ugh:IM is spot on, Scene 1, chapter16.

Sad as the news is, the whole scenario is financially bonkers, and without massive subsidy, which will now not be available, I would suggest that no one could make money from it. And that of course is the purpose of any commercial venture.:suspect:

It will be very interesting to see how the cooncil play this. They may well just shut it utilising 'elfin safey', and that would be very sad indeed.

fisbangwollop

24th Dec 2010, 23:07

Sadly I fear the end is near .......The council have failed and are not going to step back and watch someone else make a success out of it....not that that will ever be possible on a commercial scale. Within the year I guess you may see some nice building plots for sale....land up there with PP is at a premium, especialy with the views that one on the airfield would command....sad, very sad but I fail to see any other option...:{:{:{

Say again s l o w l y

24th Dec 2010, 23:51

I'm really not so sure about that.
I'm certain that the council would rather see the airfield being used and then spin a tale about ownership, rather than admit they'd blown £10 mil of public money for no good reason.

I just can't see ABC allowing the place to die so quickly after spanking so much on it. It'd be an absolute disaster, not matter which party were in power.

Someone will be given a nice cheap lease to run it, of that I'm fairly certain.

Bigears

25th Dec 2010, 07:21

Good point SAS, and we should perhaps think about running a press campaign if the airfield shows definite signs of shutting (I guess that people/groups holding leases will have to be give notice to quit). Its too vital an airfield to lose.

On another point, is Glenforsa safe? I would hope so, but think it worth asking the question...
Merry Christmas & happy safe aviating in 2011

maxred

25th Dec 2010, 10:03

Glenforsa will be fine.It did not get International status with 9 mill spent on it.

PK to the rescue:OIt is the fuel that makes the difference commercially. A cheap lease/ sale to Paul, (if he still has the fire), and the venture may have a future. Go back to the no nonsense approach, open all hours, made to feel welcome, the 'good wee airfield' it always was. That may work;)

dont overfil

25th Dec 2010, 10:59

Is there access other than through the "terminal?"
D.O.

Oldpilot55

25th Dec 2010, 11:32

Can you see ABC letting PK have the lease given the amount of hate that exists up there between the various parties?

madflyer26

25th Dec 2010, 11:59

With regard to access, there is several points around the airfield which is accessible. Each club respectively have their own access. The terminal is used for the PSO and for visiting pilots to report and pay landing fees and such like.

I strongly agree with SAS, and doubt very much it will close and then be subsequently developed. The scoop that made the Oban Times was sensationalized to the point that by making the firefighters redundant could lead to a scenario where they could be needed but are not available and lives could be lost. :ugh:

Personally I think it will revert to type and will be run un-licensed like it was in the good old days. The service will continue for the time being and the word on the street is that at least 9 fire fighters will be made redundant Barry McCaig is history and the remaining staff will be on an auxiliary basis to operate as and when required.

I spoke to PK yesterday and surprisingly he was fairly cheerful. He never said a great deal, but what he did say gives me optimism. I hope the status quo returns to Connel Airport and I will still be able to set up my microlight flying school in March.

Regards
MF26

Maoraigh1

25th Dec 2010, 20:36

How much EU money went into Oban, Coll, and Colonsay? Is there a time within which this must be repayed if the facilities it was spent on are no longer used for the purpose the money was provided for?

maxred

26th Dec 2010, 13:21

My understanding is that a substantial EU grant was given, I have the exact figure in the office, and that 'terms' exist for repayment of that grant. From memory it was based a passenger number throughput, all of which was pipedream bollox.:\The terms of the grant are therefore broken.

Numerous letters to the authority over the piece, were met with unusual silence. Even letters to Central (Salmond and co),went 'whitewashed'.

Look,a massive amount of taxpayers money was spent, and produced a very usable airport. The operations,without fuel sales uplift, make it, commercially, a white elephant. The fights and issues with PK, are an aside. PK made the place, the council pinched it, and he will resurrect it I am sure.:D

Oban, is a marvellous place to visit, uplift fuel, have lunch, and then fly further up the West Coast. I fully look forward to many visits 2011:)

airpolice

26th Dec 2010, 13:32

Maxred,

Well Said.:D

helicopter-redeye

26th Dec 2010, 16:20

The most important thing about Oban is fuel. Without this fuel stop most far out places in the Isles are impossible (closest fuel stop apart from here is Islay but thats a 30mins + ROA lost for further north trips.

Correspondents may like to recall about 1000+ pages ago on this thread the consultants that helped get the money in the first place and their involvement in the 'other' closed new airport of the UK in Sheffield.

Sits there doing nothing except for a base for 1 police and 1 air ambulance.

Long live the ancient regieme of Oban 1996 - 2004

'India-Mike

26th Dec 2010, 16:37

h-r is absolutely, 100%, correct. It's about the fuel. Islay isn't an option - too far south and west. Glenforsa - tight, even if it had fuel, can't suit everyone. Perth is too far east.

I have two "missions" that emphasise the importance of Oban for me - I'm sure all of you out there in pprune-land have your own. But for me:

(i) Prestwick-Inverness in our Chipmunk 22 via the Great Glen. 1h 45min with 2h 20 to dry tanks. 35 min hold/divert at Inv, even VFR, doesn't really bear thinking about;

(ii) Prestwick-Oban-Prestwick, same machine, no uplift at Oban. Back at Pik with 90 min out of the tanks, 50 min to hold then get to Cumbernauld if needed. Tight.

Paul, bless him, would come out to put dribbles in our machine just to reduce that pucker factor. I've seen him come out to put 30l or less in. Irrespective of the personalities involved it comes down to: no fuel, no go.

As I said, h-r has it in one. Fuel, fuel, fuel.

Oldpilot55

26th Dec 2010, 19:47

Agreed 100% with I-M and H-R. Fuel has been the reason PK has suceeded. He knows that well.
Unfortunately despite its good looks and atrocious weather in Scotland an aircraft like a Chipmunk will always have fuel problems unless you are doing 30 mins of aeros over the field.
You can almost count on two hands the number of GA airfields with Avgas in Scotland. That doesn't mean you can't get a lift to get mogas at a number of airfields but it does restrict your options.

bad bear

26th Dec 2010, 21:16

I hope the status quo returns to Connel Airport and I will still be able to set up my microlight flying school in March.

madflyer26 good luck with the school. If you get one of the microlights that can tow gliders, e.g. the Dynamic please let me know and I will be asking for a few launches from you. I would love to glide in that area again, especially in an easterly wind
bb

fisbangwollop

26th Dec 2010, 22:21

Let me say again how sad is it to know that the guys and gals at Oban could soon be out of a job. For the past year or so I have worked with them closely and can honestly say everyone of them has been dedicated to the cause......if at times they have laid down the law that didnt suit some I can only assume that was because of pressure from above..simple as that.

OK what is the future......Oban probably the best airfield to visit on the west coast of Scotland, we all know that....but that alone cannot be the only factor that will keep it alive.

To me the only solution would be go back to the status Quo...i.e. let PK run the place again...however it would not take a Philidelphia lawyer to realise that this present Council will not eat Hummble pie and let that happen.

As for being taken over on a commercial basis....well where would the money come from......30 visiting light aircraft on a nice summers day is not going to pay the bills......what would the rent payable to the council be???

OK then the council now need a way to recover the 12 million or so spent on the place....how will they do that????

I still reckon the value of land for future development will be the only way a small ammount of that 12 mill will be recovered...but then again what do I know??

I guess it will be a very sad day when we see the first houses being built on the sight......another McCaigs folly I fear :hmm:

Solar

26th Dec 2010, 23:20

Is it not the case that if an airfield receives an EU grant that it's use can not be changed for a period of time. I believe something in the order of seven years, if this is true then the land could not be sold for housing or whatever. I understand that there was a similar situation regarding St Angelo Enniskillen when it failed to to attract commercial flights after receiving a grant.

Johnm

27th Dec 2010, 07:18

I still reckon the value of land for future development will be the only way a small ammount of that 12 mill will be recovered...but then again what do I know??

Development of what? Is there a serious housing shortage? No chance of industry the logistics don't work.

A tourist attracting facility seems to be the only option, but the kind of tourists who head for the Highlands are looking for scenery not theme parks!

An unlicensed aerodrome with minimal fire and rescue to support interisland commercial and charter traffic would seem to be the best option and PK can continue doing what he does now while someone else runs it on behalf of the Council if politics still overrides reason!

The increased flexibility for the likes of me will undoubtedly increase traffic and revenue for all concerned.

madflyer26

27th Dec 2010, 09:15

FBW,I agree that it is not good for anyone to loose their job and indeed at this time of the year when there is few jobs around. However it has to be balanced with the amount of money being squandered on a project that has failed to live up to the hype.

In these austere times the taxpayers money is better spent on things that directly impact our lives. If the service was to stop tomorrow,then the islanders who use it would just have to revert to what they have been using for the last few centuries. The service is I am sure a blessing for some but to the real detriment to the many in terms of expenditure which is better spent.

In terms of future for Oban not to many of us locals are perturbed or surprised with the latest developments. In-fact it was predicted at the inception of this project. With regard to future social or private housing projects there has been several areas looked at for development and one of them is located between Connel and Oban,on the old road. Oban Airport as been looked at in the past by developers IIRC it was McLeod Homes and it all fell through. I am not entirely certain why it fell through.

BB,I spent many a happy day gliding at Connel. The east wind is considered by some up here as prohibitive for flying,but you could get great flying to the east with a sailplane. Ben Lora has a very small easterly facing ridge to exploit for lift, but if you could get to 1400ft of it, bouncing down to Bonawe quarry and exploiting the hills further north was possible.

Regards
MF26

dont overfil

27th Dec 2010, 10:26

The money was invested in Oban airport because it was (and still is) considered an asset to the area. Like most transport infrastructure it will continue to need a subsidy of some sort.

If ABC want an operator to continue running the place with similar services they will have to PAY them to do it.

Remember Dundee council off loaded their airport as it was costing them IRO £750000 per year. I imagine it still costs them but does not show the same way in the books.

The only substantial unsupported income would be from the fuel and the flying clubs and I cannot see anything that would justify one more wage apart from PKs and an assistant.

If the Islanders were operated on a charter basis does that reduce the regulation burden?

As FBW has said I am sorry for the staff whose jobs are on the line. I have always had great service from them.

I seldom need to stop at Oban for fuel. I stop there because I like the place.

DO.

helicopter-redeye

29th Dec 2010, 18:43

...h-r is absolutely, 100%, correct...

Moment of glory.Now onwards..

Paul has the fuel franchise at Oban, so it would be interesting to understand the liability the council may face if they were to close and hence his franchise were worth 'nowt' (different situation at Sheffield as the operator also sold the fuel, whereas in Oban it is split). The loss of income law suite could cost the councils revenue on the sale of the site to a third party, hence returning the field to the management of somebody who was previously very successful could be a very attractive options (he employed people too, so it was contributing to the local economy).

Aviation Scotland with no Oban means carry jerrycans in the back for beach refuelling or ferry tanks. Can't do the Western Isles without it, certainly not rotary.

Cod War? you ain't see nuffink yet.

h-r

maxred

29th Dec 2010, 20:02

AP - Yes this is a rumour site, but also the odd fact here and there, and some very informative info from some active posters.
Only PK knows the full facts about this debacle, and it has been raging for a good few years now. I would leave it to him to tell the story, and who has leases with whom.:=

The operating costs for the 'airport' are in excess of 375k per annum, this before any Grant payback, rent payable, rates etc etc. In 2009, if memory serves, landing fees brought in 20k.

The fuel will, in my opinion,on a good year,turnover 140k. Not profit, Turnover.

The Government, and not the council, will IMHO, subsidise the transport links. i.e landing fees, associated costs, and some other stuff. The issue is that any audit conducted by the Goverment will uncover crass financial mis-management on behalf of ABC, therefore the slippery dilema will be to get out of the mess, as clean as they can make it, without making public the actual numbers that have been lost, to Joe public, although whether anyone actually gives a s*** anymore is debatable.

The local residents will require a service, they will not want to see it slip away, therefore, a white knight will be required in some format, he/she/they/will require extra fortified armour mind you:)

mad_jock

6th Jan 2011, 10:26

Bit racist and homophobic there maxred whats wrong with a black queen taking over?

wsmempson

6th Jan 2011, 11:24

"Bit racist and homophobic there maxred whats wrong with a black queen taking over?"

Who did you have in mind??:rolleyes:

mad_jock

6th Jan 2011, 12:19

Nobody really

Wasn't there a local who drank something a bit "gay" you could blacken him up at a push if you like.

maxred

6th Jan 2011, 20:01

I assumed that there would be plenty of multi ethnic, multi sexually orientated, multi tasking, openly of Royal decendancy, applicants lurking around ABC. Non;)

bad bear

27th Jan 2011, 12:26

What is the planned closing date for the airfield?

mad_jock

27th Jan 2011, 14:59

I don't know but presume it will near the end of the budget year. But no doudt the council will cock it up by not handing out redundancy notices in time. So the airfield will continue to operate past this date with no finance allocated to it. Thus schools and other social obligations will suffer due to crass stupidity of the council.

Thing is as soon as it does shut and the fence comes down. I can see a good summer for Oban Airport. The King Airs can start using it again and well as the small biz jets. The islander can do what ever it wants with the AOC that its on.

The flying school doesn't need a licensed strip to operate these days.

So I would imagine someone would base a plane there for adhock trial flights.

Get some sort of quality food stop in the terminal

And someone collar the compressor for the BA kit for the fire brigade and start selling air for diving.

Captain Smithy

27th Jan 2011, 17:38

A "quality food stop"... you mean a wee greasy burger van MJ? ;)

A shame to hear about this happening, feel sorry for the staff, hopefully it will remain in use as an airfield though for a long time to come. A great destination, though somewhat bungled as of late. :uhoh:

Smithy

mad_jock

27th Jan 2011, 17:57

silverknapper

27th Jan 2011, 17:59

Thing is as soon as it does shut and the fence comes down. I can see a good summer for Oban Airport. The King Airs can start using it again and well as the small biz jets.

This is the sad part. Everyone employed by the airport will lose their job and only then something will be done about the fence? Ridiculous really. Much as it has been slated here the airport was developed, end of story. The money has been spent so forget it. But thanks to the idiots sticking up fences the airport never stood a chance.
And who will have won? I hope you'll feel proud when people are laid off and you're patting yourselves on the back for a job well done justifying your actions to anyone who will listen.
Much as I love Oban and have visited many many times over the years there is a part of me hoping they do build houses on it if it closes. It really would serve them right.:mad:

mad_jock

27th Jan 2011, 18:23

I don't think the fence being down would have made much difference anyway it was such a screwed up concept to begin with.

I will grant you the local backstabbing and politics haven't helped but in the grand scale of things the only thing the fence did was give an increase in fax to bucket transactions in the MOR deptment at the CAA. It wouldn't have made any significant change to the income of the airfield which compared to the amount spent doing it up was always going to be next to nothing.

eharding

28th Jan 2011, 13:23

Nah I was thinking more of a highland food stop.

Local produce. And that ****e they sell tourists.

Yes have a cafe side of things selling Bambi Burgers and the like and deep frid mars bars for when the YAK boys visit

Don't forget the Sea Eagle. I'm sure we were promised deep-fried Sea Eagle. On a stick.

I'm not sure about the deep-fried Mars Bars though. I walk past the Mars factory in Slough most days, and some of the smells and noises emerging from there could turn your stomach. Plus the fact they found 6 illegal immigrants hiding in the back of a food tanker delivering granulated chocolate to the factory not so long ago...they'd been in there for days. In fact, it was the thought of that whilst I was tucking into a Mars Bar lovingly prepared by the chippie-formerly-known-as-Mister-Grumpy's in Plockton last year that very nearly put me off my chips.

The sooner Oban returns to being an A/G affair where the biggest stress factor is whether you've had one too many of PK's jammy dodgers to make the W&B work, and all of the high-viz-gestapo brain-damage is a distant memory, the better.

mad_jock

28th Jan 2011, 15:47

So the YAK boys wouldn't be interested in Bambi burgers with chunky chips followed by apple pie and Mackies Ice Cream.

And I did note the "nearly" :ok:

NorthSouth

28th Jan 2011, 17:23

Coming back to the "airport about to shut everyone losing their jobs it'll become a Cala Homes site and Paul Keegan's to blame" theme, aren't we forgetting that what's happening here is that the council has put the whole lot (airfield operation plus air service provision) out to tender, with a start date of 1st April (yeah yeah I know....)? Isn't it fair to make an optimistic assumption that some enlightened operator will make the council a reasonable offer, resulting in continuation of services in some shape or form? And won't TUPE apply in this case, thus protecting at least some of the jobs? As for the others, I have complete sympathy with anyone likely to lose their job as a result of the privatisation, but surely no-one working at Oban Airport can have been unaware of the shaky finances and the huge controversy?

NS

Johnm

28th Jan 2011, 18:45

Sadly no one in their right mind would take this on with a TUPE commitment.

fisbangwollop

28th Jan 2011, 20:19

Mad Jock...So the YAK boys wouldn't be interested in Bambi burgers with chunky chips followed by apple pie and Mackies Ice Cream.

You never eaten out in Marlow I guess!!!:cool::cool::cool:

xrayalpha

28th Jan 2011, 20:36

If one was interested in operating this airfield, where would one find details of the tender document?

(Obviously, I could just phone the council. But are the service requirements published yet?)

mad_jock

28th Jan 2011, 20:46

I don't think you would have a chance xrayalpha on the basis you have a proven track record on running a similar operation successfully.

eharding

28th Jan 2011, 21:18

So the YAK boys wouldn't be interested in Bambi burgers with chunky chips followed by apple pie and Mackies Ice Cream.

Delete "followed by", replace with "served alongside".

Append "with a duck liver paté on top".

Sold!

NorthSouth

28th Jan 2011, 21:29

If one was interested in operating this airfield, where would one find details of the tender document?

here (http://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/Search/show/Search_View.aspx?ID=DEC085116)

NS

xrayalpha

29th Jan 2011, 07:13

Thanks North South.

Mad Jock - you flatter someone whose airfield lost 26 of its 27 aircraft in a hangar fire!

(and want to see the accounts!)

mad_jock

29th Jan 2011, 07:22

Is that so you can dunk your chips in your ice cream?

xrayalpha

29th Jan 2011, 07:26

Thanks again NS.

Interested to see the tender is for airport operations and flights.

The report in the Press and Journal at the end of last year - I have cut and pasted it here because it sometomes shows and sometimes doesn't with these pay walls - says:

Now the council is planing to issue a tender in the new year for the running of the airport and for the running of the flights.

Under European law, the flights and the airport cannot be run by the same company.

**********************

Council in hunt to find company to run Oban Airport

Published: 29/12/2010

ARGYLL and Bute Council is looking for a company to take over the operation of the council-run Oban Airport as it desperately attempts to cut costs.

The contract to operate the scheduled fights to the remote Argyll islands is also being put out to tender.

The move might see the airport reduced from a Category 2 to a Category 1 which would do away with its ability to take 19-seater planes, a senior councillor said yesterday.

The planes which operate services at present to the islands are nine-seaters.

The council announced last week that it was facing the “worst funding cut in Scotland” after learning it was facing a 4.94% reduction in its funding from the Scottish Government, when it only expected to lose 2.6%.

The airport at Connel, which is the base for flights to Coll, Tiree, Colonsay and Islay, currently costs the council in the region of £600,000-a-year to run and has 18 employees.

The council spent £8.5million upgrading the airport before Highland Airways started operating flights to Coll, Colonsay and Tiree in June 2008.

Highland Airways went bust in March this year, and the Public Service Operator (PSO) contract for the flights was taken over by Hebridean Air Services, which introduced an additional service to Islay in June.

Now the council is planing to issue a tender in the new year for the running of the airport and for the running of the flights.

Under European law, the flights and the airport cannot be run by the same company.

Councillor Duncan MacIntyre, the council’s transport spokesman, said: “We have the worst possible settlement from the Scottish Government.

“We thought we were looking at cuts of between £9-13million. But we were looking at £15million. We have to look at all services and how they are delivered. It is an examination of how services could be run on reduced costs. Oban Airport comes into that category as well.

Read more: Council in hunt to find company to run Oban Airport - Press & Journal (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zw8RFtKzf4sJ:www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/2069538+connel+airport+tender&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk#ixzz1CPWUnwsf)

140KIAS

29th Jan 2011, 10:28

The tender referred to above is a Prior Information Notice (PIN) providing advance notice of their intention to issue a tender. No formal tender appears to have been issues as yet. Scope is detailed as follows;

"Argyll & Bute Council are required to re-tender the operation of the Schedules flights routes from Oban to Coll, Tiree and Colonsay and the operation of the three of their airports at Oban, Coll, and Colonsay. The scheduled flights were previously tendered during the summer of 2010 but deemed unaffordable for the Council. The decision has therefore been taken to return to market with a fresh tender, encompassing the whole operation, including the PSO and the management of the airports at Oban, Colonsay and Coll."

Edited to say - Notice also says it wont be divided into lots which means anyone tendering must bid for the whole service. That of course doesn't prohibit companies from entering into partnerships or subcontracting certain elements.

Capt Whisky Whisky

29th Jan 2011, 10:31

It would appear that all is not lost at our favorite Airport.

The word is, the current airport staff are organising their own bid to operate Connel.

I don't see what could possibly go wrong!

WW

maxred

29th Jan 2011, 11:56

God Almighty:\

xrayalpha

6th Feb 2011, 07:51

Well,

Looked at the "proposal to tender" document, and emailled the contact name to ask about how I could tender for the airfield ops.

Used "my airfield" email, and received an auto-reply that the lady was out oif the office until Monday.

That was a week ago.

As the Spaniard asked to the Highlander: What's the local word for manana?

The reply: "Och, we've no such sense of urgency in these parts!"

NorthSouth

6th Feb 2011, 08:37

Perhaps a small practical demonstration of why they want to get the whole project off the council's books.

If I was the council I'd be looking for an operator that has diversity at the core of their plans, e.g.:

- continue the small isles services on a charter basis
- get a training organisation in to do PPL training
- pleasure flights in summer
- set up a small but good restaurant next to the terminal where locals and tourists can watch the planes
- use the remaining landside space for small office/industrial units

NS

Say again s l o w l y

6th Feb 2011, 08:44

NS, that would require an outbreak of commonsense. As we know, that ain't that common...

maxred

6th Feb 2011, 10:23

NS - I believe that was their strategy, however,the individual that project managed the lot from the start got his jotters. I think justifiably.:\ The issue, as is the issue in so many areas, can it make money, stand alone i.e.without taxpayer subsidy. I think we know the answer to that - err.......... no.

As a small unlicensed, tight budget atrfield, it might, but:-

low population
poor - generally- weather.
local cost of things - rates/rent/tax
the current state of the economy
the current state of GA
the current state of the local economy

I could go on:sad::sad:

Back to basics I think, and start small, tight and neat, oh and any 'operator' needs the fuel:rolleyes:

mad_jock

8th Feb 2011, 13:47

And unfortuantely for the tax payer the obvious cost effective solution is not possible because of the very bitter political pill that would need to be swallowed.

NorthSouth

8th Feb 2011, 17:41

MJ:unfortuantely for the tax payer the obvious cost effective solution is not possible because of the very bitter political pill that would need to be swallowedGiven that said "solution" (or "bitter pill", you pays your money and you eats your salad) is not in the business of running the air service to the islands, surely it's not too much to ask the council to accept a bid which involves AN Other AOC holder operating the services and sub-contracting fuel provision and airfield operation to Solution/Bitter Pill? The council leader who had the particular problem with PK has gone, can't they now see there's a better way?

NS

Sir George Cayley

8th Feb 2011, 17:56

Sorry if this is a stoopid question but. don't Loganair provide these types of Social Needs Services to many isles?

Has anyone asked them if they're interested?

Shoot me down - it's been a while since I hit the silk.

Sir George Cayley

140KIAS

8th Feb 2011, 18:43

I would wager the currently intended combined airfield operator/PSO contract being binned in favour of 2 separate contracts ;)

NorthSouth

9th Feb 2011, 10:41

I know, all this pussy-footing around, it's so bleedin....English! ;)

As for your question Sir George, Loganair now only does the Orkney inter-island service. They were of course the commercial service pioneers at Oban in the 1960s and 70s (Glasgow-Oban-Mull-Coll) with Islanders and the occasional Trislander.

NS

140KIAS

9th Feb 2011, 12:47

A while back Mad Jock wrote

Thing is as soon as it does shut and the fence comes down. I can see a good summer for Oban Airport. The King Airs can start using it again and well as the small biz jets. The islander can do what ever it wants with the AOC that its on.

Im sure Mad Jock had his tongue firmly planted when he posted. However regardless the fence and reduced landing distances are a complete red herring.

It is my understanding that under the ANO it would be perfectly legal for an aircraft engaged on a flight, which is not required to use a licensed airfield, to use the full runway length during the airfield's period of licensed operation, with the authority of the airfield operator.

In which case why is the place not buzzing with King Airs and Small Business Jets.

NorthSouth

9th Feb 2011, 14:44

140kts:I think the juxtaposition of with the authority of the airfield operatorandIn which case why is the place not buzzing with King Airs and Small Business Jetsgives your answer.

NS

140KIAS

9th Feb 2011, 15:50

indeed - but the stock answer I hear everytime Im there and question the stupidity of their rules is dont blame us it's the CAA

madflyer26

9th Feb 2011, 16:03

I will continue to use the full length of the runway during out of hours. And I don't give a hoot if the local authority see me or not.

If the above post is indeed an extraction from the ANO then the fence excuse is void for the apparent diminished movements.

Does the council actually want this project to work or are they conceding defeat? Epic fail delusions of grandeur let someone with a proven track record take the helm and let the place thrive once again.

The place has limited commercial potential certainly not enough to be independent of government subsidies.But I guess when the wind-farm project kicks of next decade Oban might be used as a potential transportation link. Not holding my breath for that one.

If HIAL have now disengaged from the tendering process that for most people would be ominous of the situation at Oban. Not entirely certain if the council talking to HIAL during tendering process is quite legal either.

With the start of the flying season not far away it would be in everyone's interest for Oban to be on an even keel and do its utmost to get the visitors back. I am not an ardent supporter of Mr Keegan he did however do a great job when he was running the place. If anyone supports the current regime it would be akin to the turkey's voting for Christmas everyday and a sure way of running what is left of the place into the deck.

Regards
MF

maxred

9th Feb 2011, 16:15

Look, this was a time bomb slowly ticking away, and the **** was going to hit the fan sooner or later. Christ, if the cooncil cannot make it work, then what chance would private enterprise:ugh:

Unless you are a fat cat, lording it at the golden shareholders trough, a banker (bonus) god forbid, then running business of any fashion is very tough in UK plc to-day, all the fun of your own business, without the financial reward.

As you get older, money - the making of- is what counts, not standing on the wee hill flying the flag:p

Why would PK, or anyone else for that matter, operate it unless your were going to make PROFIT. I really do not think that this place can be commercial, unless you get rent free/rates free/and have all of the revenue that can be squeezed from the asset to yourself, and that would take some effort.

fisbangwollop

9th Feb 2011, 17:27

Unless you are a fat cat, lording it at the golden shareholders trough, a banker

Mentioning that I think I may just know the ideal person.....has property not too far away and now operates 5 aircraft of various shape and size!!! Well at least it would save him paying landing fee's!! :cool::cool::cool:

madflyer26

9th Feb 2011, 21:37

Maxred,

My sentiments exactly. Not quite as succinct as you.

The last chap who run it and the only one prior to it being in a state of dereliction ran it as a profit, just and no more. The difference, his overheads were small, he employed one man who tended to aircraft operated the A/G radio and mopped the toilet occasionally. There we have the business model for the next potential operators to work off. Simples! Thinking small to get big is much better than thinking and acting big to get **** all in return.

Regards
MF

xrayalpha

10th Feb 2011, 07:29

Maxred wrote:

unless you get rent free/rates free

*************

Where is your ambition.

UK govt PAYS some rail companies to run the trains for them.

So I would expect anyone running Oban and its associated air services to be paid too.

The "tender" will be a competition to see who needs the least subsidy.

Now, if the airfield was to be sold for 1p to somebody, then they might just take it on with the hope of using some of the ground for what NS and others have proposed - restaurant/offices/industrial units/hotel etc - to subsidise the air side.

That's my 1p worth!

NorthSouth

10th Feb 2011, 08:25

MF:when the wind-farm project kicks of next decade Oban might be used as a potential transportation link. Not holding my breath for that oneOn current plans looks like being less than one EC135 round-trip sortie per day. Not exactly a money-spinner.
NS

mad_jock

10th Feb 2011, 09:30

Tidal would be a better option in the area.

NorthSouth

10th Feb 2011, 15:24

2 days ago 140KIAS suggested:I would wager the currently intended combined airfield operator/PSO contract being binned in favour of 2 separate contracts

I've just had this from the Council:

Thank you for your interest in Argyll Air Services. Since the issue of the Prior Information Notice (PIN) on the 6th of December 2010, our approach to this procurement has been amended – we will now be tendering the Provision of Air Services between Oban, Coll, Colonsay and Tiree and the Airport Operations separately.

I will be releasing the tender documents for the Provision of Air Services between Oban, Coll, Colonsay and Tiree via Public Contracts Scotland on Monday 14th February 2011. The release date for Airport Operations is estimated to be in the 2nd week of March 2011

NS

140KIAS

10th Feb 2011, 20:30

2 days ago 140KIAS suggested: Quote:
I would wager the currently intended combined airfield operator/PSO contract being binned in favour of 2 separate contracts
I've just had this from the Council:

Quote:
Thank you for your interest in Argyll Air Services. Since the issue of the Prior Information Notice (PIN) on the 6th of December 2010, our approach to this procurement has been amended – we will now be tendering the Provision of Air Services between Oban, Coll, Colonsay and Tiree and the Airport Operations separately.

I will be releasing the tender documents for the Provision of Air Services between Oban, Coll, Colonsay and Tiree via Public Contracts Scotland on Monday 14th February 2011. The release date for Airport Operations is estimated to be in the 2nd week of March 2011
NS

Call me psychic :ok:

140KIAS

10th Feb 2011, 20:33

If the above post is indeed an extraction from the ANO then the fence excuse is void for the apparent diminished movements.

Not so much taken from the ANO but it has been confirmed in writing to be correct by a high heid yin at the CAA. I am led to believe that Airfield Management are aware of this, but continue to advise prospective private flights that they cannot use the full length, thereby dissuading many potential visitors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"I have a query regarding the use of a licensed airfield by a private flight which has a displaced threshold due to an obstruction in the safety run-off strips at the side of the runway.

I refer specifically to Oban Airport EGEO.

There is currently a NOTAM in force as below:

Q) EGPX/QMDCH/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5628N00524W005
B) FROM: 10/03/27 09:12
C) TO: 10/04/30 16:30
E) RWY 01 THR DISPLACED 422M, REDUCED DECLARED DISTANCES:
TORA TODA ASDA LDA
RWY 01 702M 702M 837M 782M
RWY 19 842M 902M 842M 642M

Can you confirm my reading of the ANO that;- it would be legal under the ANO for an aircraft engaged on a flight which is not required to use a licensed airfield to use the full runway length at EGEO during the airfield's period of licensed operation with the authority of the airfield operator.[/font]

Dear Sir

The answer is yes, if the flight is a private flight and not for public transport, but subject to articles 137 & 138 ANO

Regards
Stephen Baker
CAA
CAA House
CAA Legal Department, K508

maxred

10th Feb 2011, 21:10

xrayalpha - can I tender for a consultancy role. 10k a month, and you can add it to the best tender amount, therefore least subsidy:8

The whole point was that with current economic cut backs, there may well be NO SUBSIDY:confused:

As cutely got by madflyer, thanks for the 'succintly' bit, I can have my rare moments, any idiot can run a service with government subsidy.

The council have given up, therefore, I would assume that any new agreements would require disclosure, and from that would come disclosure on where the 9mill went.:\

I really want a venture to succeed, I love the place, but, reality bites, and what we dont want is someone run it as badly or worse, that the previous incumbents, and go bust in a year or so.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I simply do not see the commercial activity to make this a profitable venture, without of course public subsidy.Why, then, if it were to be subsidised, does the council want rid of it???????? Just employ an enterprisng manager:ok:

xrayalpha

11th Feb 2011, 07:22

maxred,

If you want to pay me 10k a month, you can come work in Strathaven!

maxred

11th Feb 2011, 15:15

Come to think of it, I never did invoice you for the day we mowed the grass:cool:

madflyer26

11th Feb 2011, 21:44

Enterprising and cooncil seems rather oxymoronic.

MF

Helen49

13th Feb 2011, 10:24

Quite difficult to be an enterprising manager at Oban when the Council ties one hand behind his back and a local service provider ties the other?

Capt Whisky Whisky

13th Feb 2011, 15:27

Quite difficult to be an enterprising manager at Oban when the Council ties one hand behind his back and a local service provider ties the other?

Interesting comment, care to explain?

WW

helicopter-redeye

13th Feb 2011, 18:07

On a lighter note, there is a major hill running event in Oban in July, with several thousand people expected to attend and complete (+ camp followers). This should be a good boost to the local economy.

Do the Council, the Airport or any Operators have any plans to offer aviation related services during the week of the event? The event centre is on the Northern edge of the ATZ.

It would be an opportunity to drive aviation revenue for the local economy.

h-r (who also runs up hill very fast);)

Helen49

13th Feb 2011, 19:53

Explanation for W-W

Based operator, I am informed, builds an airside fence affecting the declared distances and therefore the traffic levels. Said council fails to remove fence and culprit.

Simples!!!

Oldpilot55

13th Feb 2011, 22:15

I think that WW knows very well the effect his fence had on the licensed part of the airfield. That aside its a bit sad the whole personality/reality situation in Obaan.

mad_jock

13th Feb 2011, 22:31

The fact that if the license application had been filled in correctly that the airport authority didn't have control over the airside ground. They wouldn't have been given a licnese in the first place thus saving a heap of agro and public money is also simples!!!

Helen49

14th Feb 2011, 08:53

Most probably true Mad Jock! Just a very sad and expensive situation. You couldn't make it up! Even schools have better behaviour and discipline!

NorthSouth

14th Feb 2011, 09:17

Helen49:builds an airside fence affecting the declared distances and therefore the traffic levelsThe first part isn't in any doubt. But the second is by no means demonstrable. First of all the council would have to have a system for recording traffic levels. Second, said system would have to be methodologically comparable to the system used for recording traffic when the "culprit" was running things. My investigations don't give me any confidence that either of those holds true.

Then, having compared comparable statistics, you'd have to be able to extract any decline due to other factors (I won't even begin to list them here) from those caused by the reduction in declared distances.

None of which justifies the endless working out of grudges of course.

NS

Helen49

14th Feb 2011, 09:36

North South

Doubtless there is more than a shred of truth in your post, I simply meant that I would have expected there to have been more movements using a 1200metre runway than that notamed at present. I think that bit is simples!!

madflyer26

14th Feb 2011, 10:26

I refer to a previous post with regard to runway lengths and requirements.
The fence argument for a reduction in movements is a moot point. However what is irrefutable is the evidence below and the inability of the local cooncil to run anything bar a piss up in a brewery. On the strength of what was presented by the post below I am going to lobby the council and ask them why given that it is perfectly legal- can an aircraft not engaged on public transport flying not utilise the notamed section? The post below demonstrates that the council may have done more to hinder movements than any fence erected ever has! The majority of traffic is private, the helicopter traffic engaged on public transport don't require runways as such. The PSO doesn't require 1200 metres, neither does the military(Tucanos take off distance 350 landing distance 550). So if there has been a reduction in public transport traffic due to the fence, let the council be up-front and let the figures be made available!

Can you confirm my reading of the ANO that;- it would be legal under the ANO for an aircraft engaged on a flight which is not required to use a licensed airfield to use the full runway length at EGEO during the airfield's period of licensed operation with the authority of the airfield operator.[/font]

Dear Sir

The answer is yes, if the flight is a private flight and not for public transport, but subject to articles 137 & 138 ANO

Regards
Stephen Baker
CAA
CAA House
CAA Legal Department, K508

gasax

14th Feb 2011, 11:48

The whole crux of Oban is why are there any movements?

There has never been any commercial incentive until the cooncil created PSO. Whilst the road to Glasgow is poor it is the way that the locals access 'air transport'.

The Western Isles have never been anything like as 'air minded' as the Northern Isles and the population densities are a lot lower. Bluntly there is little reason to fly there apart from tourism. Now 'we' can do that quicte easily but putting together for instance a one off charter flight for even a large group of people is prohibitively expensive - I know I've tried to a couple of times from places where it is easier to do it. The costs for these sort of flights is very high. If you add in that the weather may cancel the whole thing no one can undertake them.

Local people either have to generate some events where flying to the area actually makes some sense for a significant number of people or get a grip on reality

The airport staff's idea of an air freight hub caused me a huge amount of humour, but at least this time around the cooncil will not be backing another dead duck.

Runway length is pretty irrrelevent - look at Campbeltown's 3000m and movements you can count on the fingers of one hand.............

Gelande Strasse

14th Feb 2011, 12:18

Bluntly there is little reason to fly there apart from tourism

..........and even that is no longer enough for Loch Lomond Seaplanes. They have suspended their Oban flights!

GS

fisbangwollop

14th Feb 2011, 16:41

They have suspended their Oban flights!

Only for the Winter....:cool:

BOBFLY777

14th Feb 2011, 17:23

Are They Still On For This Year

Gelande Strasse

14th Feb 2011, 17:57

Only for the Winter

They are making more money on their "Discovery Tours" and so as the service to/from Oban was "on demand", one concludes that the demand is not there! The quote I have is that the situation will be reviewed periodically. I hope it will be back when the days are longer!

The Caravan was on the hard at Glasgow yesterday.

GS

silverknapper

14th Feb 2011, 18:20

it would be legal under the ANO for an aircraft engaged on a flight which is not required to use a licensed airfield to use the full runway length at EGEO during the airfield's period of licensed operation with the authority of the airfield operator.[/font]

A moot point really when discussing charters in and out of Oban. Bar the Islander aoc set up in Cumbernauld, and there isnt much demand for charters to and from the south of england in Islanders funnily enough, other AOC operators need a licensed airfield.

Helen

I have attempted more than a handful of times to take charters into Oban, but sadly all were halted in the planning phase due to the fence/runway issue. Indeed one time I came on here to comment but was shouted down by the small minded idiots who think it's a great idea and are hell bent on justifying the lunacy to themselves.
Maybe the council were in the wrong, I don't really care. What bothers me is the fence was erected out of pig headedness and the field is suffering as a result.

NorthSouth

14th Feb 2011, 18:51

Tender for the air services (http://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB088035) has now been published. Oddly, it tells all tenderers how much the council has set aside for providing the services - £850,000 a year. Assuming that's all subsidy, it's a subsidy of about £850 per flight or (ouch!) around £400 per passenger carried.

So I suspect those with innovative ideas for generating revenue which can be offset against the subsidy will attract the council's interest.

Also of note: the council proposes to contribute £50,000 to the building of a hangar for the air services aircraft. Could this be to make sure the successful bidder doesn't use a certain other hangar?

NS

Captain Smithy

14th Feb 2011, 19:02

Bonkers, totally bonkers figures. Mindblowing sums of money. No wonder ABC are skint. Why don't politicians understand business?

To quote a popular Scottish phrase, "Whit a load ay pish" :ugh:

Smithy

Maoraigh1

14th Feb 2011, 20:23

"The Western Isles have never been anything like as 'air minded' as the Northern Isles and the population densities are a lot lower. Bluntly there is little reason to fly there apart from tourism."
People from the isles travel to Glasgow or Inverness direct, rather than to Oban.
Oban/Uig/Ullapool are ferry ports for shortest crossings, because ferries are much slower than road transport, and take vehicles.
Oban to Glasgow by rail/bus/car is much cheaper, and not that much longer (address to address) than by air

mad_jock

14th Feb 2011, 22:03

"The Western Isles have never been anything like as 'air minded' as the Northern Isles"

Although to be fair a trip on the St Clair from Shetland in a force 10 is a completely different level of misery compared to the Lord of the Isles in similar wx conditions in the Minch.

As a kid I can remember sitting in Stonehaven bay with my mum dry retching in the cabin sink for 2 days before the bar ran out of booze and that mad auld bastard Capatain made a run at Aberdeen habour mouth. She went in surfing the waves with the engines screaming like banshies with all us kids thinking we were going to go aground underneith Torry battery. The old St Clair was a hard auld girl.

flybymike

14th Feb 2011, 23:33

Also of note: the council proposes to contribute £50,000 to the building of a hangar for the air services aircraft. Could this be to make sure the successful bidder doesn't use a certain other hangar?

They could always use mini microlights and park them in the Fire truck garage....

NorthSouth

15th Feb 2011, 06:27

They could always use mini microlightsBut would they be able to sell all the seats? ;)

NS

NorthSouth

16th Feb 2011, 10:14

Captain Smithy wroteBonkers, totally bonkers figures. Mindblowing sums of money. No wonder ABC are skint. Why don't politicians understand business?I know Cap'n, shocking it is, shocking. Look at the Scottish Government - they spend £35 million a year on subsidies to HIAL and to the air services to Tiree Barra and Campbeltown. Personally, I blame it on all those ridiculously expensive engineers that swan around the highlands mending navaids ;):ok:

NS

bad bear

16th Feb 2011, 10:25

they spend £35 million a year on subsidies to HIAL

I had not realised the group cost so much! Does that include subsidising the cost of the tickets and route start up incentives?
£35 million divided by the number of passengers would make an interesting stat!
I wonder what would happen if the subsidies were removed and free market took over?
bb

NorthSouth

16th Feb 2011, 12:18

BB:I wonder what would happen if the subsidies were removed and free market took over?Do the words 'Highland Airways' give any indication? :(
NS

Captain Smithy

16th Feb 2011, 18:43

I know Cap'n, shocking it is, shocking. Look at the Scottish Government - they spend £35 million a year on subsidies to HIAL and to the air services to Tiree Barra and Campbeltown. Personally, I blame it on all those ridiculously expensive engineers that swan around the highlands mending navaids

Well someone's got to do it Mr South, otherwise how will all those subsidised flights be able to land in bad weather? ;)

Sir George Cayley

16th Feb 2011, 18:49

Wonder what will happen to the engineers when the nav signal comes down from above as opposed to up from below?

Sir George Cayley

Maoraigh1

16th Feb 2011, 20:33

"I wonder what would happen if the subsidies were removed and free market took over?"
I wonder qhat would happen with, for example, the M23, in these circumstances. And the Olympics. And India, reading about the UK donation to it. (The latter should manage ok without it.)

gasax

17th Feb 2011, 07:17

I was prompted to check out the HIAL annual report recently. The direct subsidy paid for operating the airports is something over £19M.

Given the number of movements across all the airfields each movement costs the Scottish Governement £151 - and that includes the HIAL landing feecharge of £17.50 !

bad bear

17th Feb 2011, 16:37

I was prompted to check out the HIAL annual report recently. The direct subsidy paid for operating the airports is something over £19M.

I believe there is a subsidy of £19M then there is an operating loss that is on top of that figure. I dont know the details of Dundee's finance but that situation seems to be deteriorating as the LCY route dropped to 2 rotations

then some flights have subsidies on the ticket price

so possibly the total figure could be £35 M making the cost per flight £280

how long can this be sustained?
anyway Oban is not part of that group, thread drift

bb

mad_jock

17th Feb 2011, 18:00

I think HIAL is safe. If the chopped the money for them you would cut off all the major islands from air travel in the UK. Thre would be up roar if they did that apart from the fact that the revenue from those islands far exceeds the grant.

neutron

20th Feb 2011, 18:20

From The Scotsman:

Fence that has grounded 400 flights to Highland airport

Full story Fence that has grounded 400 flights to Highland airport - Scotsman.com (http://www.scotsman.com/news/Fence-that-has-grounded-400.6720738.jp)

...and on the For Argyll Website

Former firefighter issues personal plea to council on Oban Airport

Full Story Argyll News: Letter: Former firefighter issues personal plea to council on Oban Airport :Argyll,Argyll Bute Council,Oban Airport,Argyll Aero Club, | For Argyll (http://forargyll.com/2011/02/letter-former-firefighter-issues-personal-plea-to-council-on-oban-airport/)

Say again s l o w l y

20th Feb 2011, 18:50

As much as I dislike the way that the whole Oban Air Services project has been stuffed up from the start and wasted public money for no good reasons, it's got to the point where both "sides" in this sorry tale need a damn good kick in the pods.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face... For everyone at Oban, the place needs to get busier. Paul needs it for the fuel, the council need it to save face and every user of the airport needs it becuase otherwise there is a real risk of the place being shutdown or farmed off.

Yes, it's all been an unholy mess and I can understand where everyone is coming from, but FFS, this is now just a joke. Can someone (anyone at all) grow some b*lls and try to sort this out instead of just fighting eachother to a standstill and hurting yourselves all the time. It might take a bit of pride swallowing from everyone, but surely that is worth it?

Johnm

20th Feb 2011, 19:42

There are plenty of folk who would be happy to mediate this dispute pro bono!

Say again s l o w l y

20th Feb 2011, 19:49

I'd certainly do it for gratis too!

fisbangwollop

20th Feb 2011, 20:31

Fence that has grounded 400 flights to Highland airport

It would be nice to think that if this report is true once all this sh1t is sorted these 400 flights will actually happen!!! I would be interested to know if they actually happened before the fence appeared, can someone answer that??

I really feel sorry for all those affected by those at Oban that have been affected by this bitter dispute, I have met most of them and to me they all ( on both sides ) seem a great bunch...its not good to have the threat of redundancy over you but one really has to ask what really is the commercial future of Oban???? having spent 40 years in the aviation industry I really find it hard to understand how the operation at Oban on a commercial basis can pay!!......That said I would be very happy to be proved wrong.

madflyer26

20th Feb 2011, 21:28

SAS,

Your post is 100% spot on. But something tells me it will get a lot worse before it gets better. Not one group is going to concede much, and all the peace intervention with political figures will do sod all.They never bothered much before, but I guess there is an election looming. Its a bloody shambles and I as a local pilot and a user of many years want this whole morass at Oban Airport to disappear along with the protagonists that keep it in perpetual destruction mode!

Regards
MF26

gasax

21st Feb 2011, 07:01

I suspect the 400 flights are probably somewhat exaggerated - but to a large extent it does n't matter.

The basic problem is the psyche of the people let's face it - this is an area where being a Campbell can be a bad thing!

'The Aero Club' could remove the fence having made their point - but in that grand tradition I suppose they won't. The cooncil could smooth things out - but of course they won't.

As far as I can see it will be down to the new airfield operator to try and bring some sense to the whole mess - I wish them luck!

Phil Space

21st Feb 2011, 09:35

The man who caused all of this is long gone:ok:

The Original GF

21st Feb 2011, 12:34

The man who caused all of this is long gonehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

But the regime he put in place is still in full working order.

OGF

Phil Space

21st Feb 2011, 13:30

In which case if it was me the fence would stay in place.

Good for you Paul Keegan:ok:

Capt Whisky Whisky

21st Feb 2011, 13:53

I suspect the 400 flights are probably somewhat exaggerated

And I suspect that is somewhat of an understatment!

How come there was no previous mention of this 'fact' until the firecrew's jobs were in jeopardy?

And I don't suppose closing the airport at 17.00 so that they could bugger off home would affect traffic numbers, would it?

WW

bad bear

29th Mar 2011, 04:36

By my counting the 90 days notice is over, anyone know what happened?

bb

blueandwhite

29th Mar 2011, 13:30

The man who caused all of this is long gonehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

But the regime he put in place is still in full working order.

I think that should be Full NON working order :E

WelshHopper

29th Mar 2011, 13:35

Still open as of yesterday... (If somewhat restricted...)

Q) EGPX/QFAAH/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5628N00524W005
B) FROM: 11/03/28 07:36C) TO: PERM
E) AD SUMMER OPERATING HOURS CHANGE TO READ: 0720 TO 1615 AND BY ARRANGEMENT WITH THE AERODROME OPERATOR(ARGYLL AND BUTE COUNCIL C/O OBAN AIRPORT) TUE AND THU 0700 TO 1615 FOR SCHEDULED MOVEMENTS ONLY AD 2 EGEO-1-1 PARA 2.3 REFERS

140KIAS

29th Mar 2011, 16:36

Trying to work out what this means. Suggestion is that it's only available to scheduled traffic Tuesday and Thursday?

Johnm

29th Mar 2011, 19:20

No obvious sign of any level of sanity yet then.....

dont overfil

30th Mar 2011, 13:32

That's probably why I have had no reply to my out of hours application.
D.O.

MFC_Fly

2nd Apr 2011, 10:09

Trying to work out what this means. Suggestion is that it's only available to scheduled traffic Tuesday and Thursday? That did have me wondering too, but the quoted NOTAM is incorrect, it should actually read...

AD SUMMER OPR HOURS CHANGE TO READ:
0720-1615 AND BY ARRANGEMENT WITH THE AD OPR (ARGYLL AND BUTE
COUNCIL C/O OBAN AIRPORT)
TUE AND THU 0700-0720 FOR SCHEDULED MOVEMENTS ONLY
AD 2 EGEO-1-1 PARA 2.3 REFERSSo, Oban is open daily 0720-1615 but opens 20 minutes earlier on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but only for scheduled movements.

MFC

BOBFLY777

24th Apr 2011, 08:15

What is the latest at Oban airport

airpolice

24th Apr 2011, 08:25

OBAN No METAR Available

Captain Smithy

24th Apr 2011, 17:50

I must complain that I am most grossly and offensively disappointed. Here I was thinking that this thread had disappeared off the face of the Earth, and lo to my joy here it has re-appeared as some sort of Easter resurrection, and yet to my bitter disappointment no humour nor banter exists, merely sensible conversation. What's going on? One is not amused. :hmm:

Smithy

airpolice

24th Apr 2011, 20:54

Smiffy,

Bob asked for the Oban latest and I point out that system has no metar for Oban.

If that's not humour then I don't know what is! If I had phoned Oban and posted the actual from them, would you have thought that was funny? I'm doing my best here.

Capt Whisky Whisky

24th Apr 2011, 21:03

and yet to my bitter disappointment no humour nor banter exists,

Maybe that's because what is happening to Oban is just not that amusing?

WW

Maoraigh1

25th Apr 2011, 20:24

Today, as usual, everyone at Oban was very friendly and helpful. It was busier than Inverness during the time I was there.(Aircraft movements of course, not pax) It cannot be pleasant for all the guys working on a presumably day to day basis after getting their notice in December.

PompeyPaul

26th Apr 2011, 07:30

I am semi interested to know what all of this is about but don't feel I have the strength to wade through all 45 pages to find out. That's as many hours to do the PPL!

Flyingmac

26th Apr 2011, 09:50

Rumour has it there's a book soon to be published. You can make up your own ending, rather than wait for one.

bingofuel

26th Apr 2011, 09:54

With the forthcoming Scottish Elections, it would be a good question to put to any candidates that come calling at your door!

MFC_Fly

26th Apr 2011, 10:57

Is it just me? This thread reports one more page than there actually are (and has done for some weeks!) This is being posted onto what is currently page 46 but the thread says that there are 47 pages :hmm:

airpolice

26th Apr 2011, 11:08

It's not just you.

This is a pprune issue that is caused by deleted posts. The system eventualy catches up but may go adrift again. There are other threads where this happens. Clicking on the last page number, when on what seems to be the penultimate page, takes you to the top of the current page.

ap

airpolice

26th Apr 2011, 12:15

Pompeypaul,

I’m not saying this is all true, but it is a summary of what lies in the previous pages. It may well be true but in order to keep the lawyers at bay, let me just clarify, it’s just what I read here and in the papers and from the Council’s own Internal Audit Report.

Many years ago, the West of Scotland had a few very nice small airfields, which pretty much ran themselves, and everyone was happy.

Then the Council got involved, spent ****loads of other people's money and cocked it up big time. The plan was to make the airport into a proper travel facility for kids living on the islands to travel by plane to school on the mainland.

They applied for licence they don't need. Had a tower built facing the wrong way, which wouldn't matter if it had windows all the way round like most towers, but...............

The contract period for the Oban airport terminal building extended well
beyond that envisaged at the tender stage and beyond the period after an
extension of time was granted. This was due to additional work required to
accommodate changes to the Control Tower.

Then they bought a Fire Engine that is too big to go in the Garage for it, and that meant they could not get a licence.

Three suppliers returned tenders for the Oban Airport fire and rescue vehicles;
the lowest was not considered because Strategic Finance was not satisfied as
to their financial standing. The second lowest was discounted as the tender
was non compliant. The accepted tender was £53k. more expensive than the
lowest compliant tender. The accepted supplier failed to meet his contractual
obligations and the contract was terminated in April 2007. Recovery of monies
paid to the supplier in the sum of £161,280 under this contract is being
pursued by Legal and Protective Services but remains unrecovered as of the
date of this report.

With hindsight it may have been worth the risk to have accepted the lowest
tenderer (discounted on basis of financial standing) No risk assessment of
this possible action was carried out at the time. Irrespective of the accepted
suppliers ultimate performance £53k. may have been saved under carefully
managed circumstances. Perhaps where substantial savings can be achieved
consideration should be given to suspending Standing Orders under
controlled conditions.

The specification for 2 rescue and fire fighting vehicles at Oban airport
prepared by external consultants required “Landrover” type chassis and ABS
braking. However the fact that Landrover do not fit ABS braking on their
chassis resulted in the recommendation of the vehicle body being constructed
on a relatively untried chassis. There appears to have been no attempt by the
external consultants to verify that Angloco had worked previously with a
Breamach Chassis.

The vehicles were due for delivery from Angloco in Mid January 2007.
Following a pre build meeting in July 2006 attended by the external
consultants and an unsatisfactory pre delivery inspection by the Council’s
Senior Airport Fire Officer in November 2006, the inspection trip to verify
achievement of specification took place in March 2007 and was carried out by
the Council’s Senior Airport Fire Officer, during which major performance nonconformities were identified.

They got a construction firm in to build a runway, and destroyed the road to the airport by doing so, which meant spending more money rebuilding the road.

A very large quantity of aggregate material was required to be transported across Coll to the airfield site and in the process extensive damage was incurred on the island road. While the contract sum included an allowance (approx. 7.5%) for temporary road repairs the actual cost was hugely in excess of this with temporary repairs costing some £190k. and permanent
reinstatement some £650k. It was considered that the allowance in the contract would cover temporary and permanent repairs to the equivalent of 1.5 kilometres when in fact some 8.5 kilometres were permanently reinstated.

They started all this when they had sitting tenants on the airfield, with a 25 year lease. Having told the CAA that the council controlled the airfield, they then found out that the tenants were not happy with some changes and refused to go along with them. After years of arrive and fly, the locals were told to report to the main building, sign in, wear a hi viz, only walk on the path, call for startup, pay landing fees before speaking to the refueller man, the list of changes (to a system that worked fine) is huge and entertaining.

As a result of what might be called Civil Disobedience by the locals, the CAA refuse to allow the airport to use the entire runway, so the School Plane can't operate. The council have no money to pay the operator anyway and even if they had a full runway to play with, they can't get a company interested in doing the flights without a huge subsidy. Who'd have thought that would happen?

The locals take the Council to court, and the law sides with the locals but still the Council persist in trying to run the show.

To bring you up to date, the business case that was the basis for the 9 million quid, at least, that the council spent on this, has proven to be what lots of us could see from the start...pish.

People have been promised jobs that were made of straw and now have been made redundant. The proposed, "fly the kids to school" plan has never been in any danger of working out.

Dawdler

26th Apr 2011, 13:00

Thanks for synopsis, but have I missed something? Wasn't there a case where one of the tenants (a club) built a fence across the end of the runway, precluding it's use for larger aircraft.

Are we to read into your piece that had the Council not got involved at all, everything in the garden would have been lovely, with all the various tenants co-operating beautifully?

It would appear that £9m would have been saved and the road to the airfield would have survived. Have I got the correct message?

airpolice

26th Apr 2011, 13:26

Not quite:

The fence was built NEAR the runway. On a piece of ground the club are legally entitled to build a fence. If the Council had realised that, they might have sought to change the conditions of tenancy before telling the CAA they were in control of things, or at least accepted the need to work WITH the people who fly the aeroplanes.

As for Are we to read into your piece that had the Council not got involved at all, everything in the garden would have been lovely, with all the various tenants co-operating beautifully?

It would appear that £9m would have been saved and the road to the airfield would have survived. Have I got the correct message?

My suspicion is that we'd actually be somewhere in between that and where we are now. I'm basing that notion on "The Story" of Oban Airport is all about what a cluster**** the Council have made of this. I don't recall reading loads of stories in the press about how bad things were up there until they started this over ambitious throw away the money scheme.

Even their own Internal Audit people slated the "management" of the project.

Compare the situation at Oban with Cumbernauld. The landing fees at each field don't cover the cost of operating an airfield. Cumbernauld survives because it is a commercial operation, renting out hangar space and providing commercial services. Oban gets much better Reception, Fire and Fiso services because the local authority provide them from taxpayer funds.

I don't think it's too much to ask for the services to be provided in a manner that suits the users, otherwise why bother?

Let's imagine how much use there might be for a council funded, floodlight equipped, astro turf, 5 a side pitch with changing rooms and showers, where you need to wear team strips, no shouting allowed, and you need to have a council supplied Ref to administer the game. Even if it was cheap, do you really think people would be using it?

Captain Smithy

26th Apr 2011, 18:32

A fine and thorough summary of teh past three years and 46 pages airpolice. Perhaps you could write a book or short film about it - "Oban Airport (sic) and a Coonsil: How to compound a catastrophe".

maxred

26th Apr 2011, 20:05

Lottery/arts council funding available:rolleyes:

Now who could we get to play......................

airpolice

26th Apr 2011, 21:16

Participant:Actor:In the style of.

Paul Keegan:John Michie (D.I Ross)
Peter Jackson:Steve Coogan (Alan Partridge)
Andy Law:Rowan Atkinson (Mr. Bean)

Internal Auditor:Liam Neeson (Rob Roy)
CEO of Highland Airways:Robbie Coltrane (Hagrid)
Visiting Pilot:John Cleese (Basil Fawlty)

Any more suggestions?

May2008 Press release:
Argyll and Bute Council’s Transportation Spokesperson, Councillor Duncan MacIntyre, said: “Things are moving forward nicely, and we are now able to clearly see a successful conclusion to the project, which will see scheduled flights from Oban to Coll, Colonsay and Tiree through a contract with Highland Airways and support from the Scottish Government.

“These flights will allow school pupils from the islands to spend weekends with their families and provide a fast alternative to the existing ferry services for residents, businesses and visitors alike.”

Councillor MacIntyre also paid tribute to the Project Development Manager, Peter Jackson, who is leaving to take up a new post elsewhere. Councillor MacIntyre said: “The Council would not have managed to take the project this far without Peter’s input, and, on behalf of the Council, I would like to offer him our sincere thanks and wish him well in his future career.”

bingofuel

26th Apr 2011, 21:23

Google revealed the power of the jammy dodger

Jammie Dodgers are biscuits filled with jam. The Eleventh Doctor (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Eleventh_Doctor) temporarily fooled the Daleks (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Dalek) into thinking one was a self-destruct button for the TARDIS (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Doctor%27s_TARDIS). When the Daleks discovered his deception, the Doctor ate the Jammie Dodger

So that solves the mystery, someone pressed a jammy dodger biscuit and caused the self destruction of Oban International Airport

eharding

26th Apr 2011, 21:41

dont overfil

27th Apr 2011, 03:06

From the photographs I've seen in the hotel the Yak drivers look more like the cast of the Gogs.
D.O.

Capt Whisky Whisky

27th Apr 2011, 09:42

There seems to be a definite tendency of 'humour creep' appearing in this thread.
Contributors are reminded that 'aving a larf' at the councils expense can lead to expensive and protracted legal proceedings which will achieve absolutely nothing.

WW:E

NorthSouth

27th Apr 2011, 17:08

'aving a larf' at the councils expense can lead to expensive and protracted legal proceedings which will achieve absolutely nothingAhhh, I get it now, the fence was a JOKE! :)
NS

Captain Smithy

27th Apr 2011, 19:18

If a film is to be made being Scottish it must by default include Billy Connolly. Though what role Big Yin would play in said saga I don't know.An appropriate title tune would be "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" by Tears For Fears. Or perhaps a re-write, "Everybody Wants To Rule The Airport". Apologies to Roland Orzabal.On a serious note, is there still no news on the future of the airfield?Smithy

Ye Olde Pilot

27th Apr 2011, 20:13

Worth pointing out that the projects at Oban, Coll and Colonsay Airports
were lead by Peter Jackson.
see aerodromelicensingsupport - Personal Profile (http://aerodromelicensingsupport.com/page003.html)

Peter R Jackson, Director
Aerodrome Licensing Support Limited
Peter has been involved with the aviation industry since 1969 when he joined BOAC as a commercial pilot. During a flying career spanning some thirty years he accumulated in excess of 15,000 flying hours. He worked for British Airways, Air Lanka, Gulf Air and Singapore Airlines and flew aircraft such as the VC10, L1011-TriStar and Boeing 747-200/300.

In 1997 he joined the UK Civil Aviation Authority as an Aerodrome Inspector and was responsible for comprehensive audits at aerodromes as diverse as London Gatwick and Southport Beach. He designed the initial training programme for Aerodrome Inspectors.
Peter joined Coventry Airport as Airport Director in 1999 - a post that he held until 2005. During this period he devised and implemented the safety management system.
In 2006 Peter joined Argyll and Bute Council as Airport Development Manager and recruited and lead the team that successfully achieved new Aerodrome Licences for Oban, Coll and Colonsay Airports. He wrote the Aerodrome Manual procedures, safety management system and successfully achieved Air Navigation Service Provider status for the Council.

Peter rejoined Coventry Airport in 2008 and introduced a quality management system and revised the safety management system, with particular emphasis on hazard identification and risk analysis. He was invited to return because of significant proven airport operations and strategic management experience together with a proven track record of successful project management.

Aerodrome Licensing Support Limited was founded in April 2009.

maxred

27th Apr 2011, 20:25

YOP - I do not think for one second that anyone is debating nor detracting from the abilities, nor credentials of Mr Peter Jackson. He appears to have delivered, the asset that he was employed to deliver. I was there to-day and it was beautiful, weather, airfield and facility.

The issue, and the subsequent humour, was in the manner the project commenced, the financing, followed by an abstract council who cannot manage, nor understand the facility they have created.

This has been done to death in previous pages.

Maoraigh1

27th Apr 2011, 21:24

"an abstract council who cannot manage, nor understand the facility they have created."

They knew they didn't know, (a la Donald Rumsfield) so they employed and trusted an expert - Mr Jackson.

airpolice

27th Apr 2011, 21:40

Who "designed" the control tower, and what exactly were the issues that needed resolving?

Who chose the Land-Rover Chassis option and then the "too big" fire engine?

Who signed the CAA application saying A&BC had full control of the aerodrome?

How much, if any, of the £161,280 that was paid up front for two fire engines that were not delivered, has been recovered?

How much in total was paid to the two Airlines, despite no flying taking place?

AP

eharding

28th Apr 2011, 00:03

From the photographs I've seen in the hotel the Yak drivers look more like the cast of the Gogs.
D.O.

No, I'm afraid you're mistaken...

http://static.ulike.net/img/02_Gogs.jpg

...deffo the Nanchang 2 driver, but it must have been taken a while back.

He's aged since then. Badly.

madflyer26

28th Apr 2011, 14:43

Fence down, outbreak of common sense by the council. Well done AAC your future sure looks bright. Good job!

Regards MF 26

mad_jock

29th Apr 2011, 10:53

Good news!!!!

maxred

29th Apr 2011, 19:44

Sorry, can I ask a really stupid question. Whilst the actual fence is down, the runway incursion markers still indicate the restricted runway areas - big white X.

On arrival Wednesday, these were still in force. Do I have it wrong????

madflyer26

29th Apr 2011, 20:22

Nope,

You have it correct. It will take a few weeks for the crosses to be erased and then the declared distances will changed.

Regards
MF

140KIAS

29th Apr 2011, 21:08

Flew over today enroute to Coll. Fence is down but the threshold is unchanged as yet. Guess the cooncil runway painting department are off for the long weekend.

Lovely weather on the way out but quite manky around Bute/Arran on the way back. FISBANGWALLOP, Im pretty sure that it was your good self on this morning. Many thanks for great service.

MFC_Fly

30th Apr 2011, 09:09

Excellent news and common sense prevails!

I think the first thing we should expect to see would be a NOTAM changing the declared distances, as happened when the fence went up.

MFC

NorthSouth

1st May 2011, 19:06

But at the risk of raising yet another LOOOOOONG running saga on this thread, the "declared distances" are irrelevant to most users of Oban, and indeed to the main user of Oban that requires a licensed aerodrome.

NS

Helen49

2nd May 2011, 13:16

Air Police
Your questions are very pertinent! I think you will find that they [along with many others] should be addressed to those who advised A & B Council prior to Mr Jackson being appointed. Isn't the saying that 'you cannot make a silk coat out of a sow's ear?' [!!].

North South
Quite right about declared distances being irrelevant to many of the operators. However it is currently a Licensed Aerodrome [like it or not] and the rules [ICAO & CAA] say that declared distances must be published. I think you will also find that AOC operators under EU Ops are required to take heed of declared distance.

Good news about the fence. Let's hope that with this outbreak of common sense some good business momentum can be regained quickly and an end to the pathetic childish goings on! Oban deserves better.

NorthSouth

3rd May 2011, 07:55

Yes, not questioning whether they should be published and whether AOC operators must adhere to them. Only questioning (a) whether they apply to private flights and (b) whether the reduced distances had any impact whatsoever on any AOC operator flying Islanders, which are the only type capable of operating the only scheduled services at Oban.

But removal of the fence is unquestionably good news.

NS

Helen49

3rd May 2011, 08:10

North south
The answer to (a) is interesting. Whilst there is no regulatory requirement appertaining to private flights, most operators should pay due regard to the landing distance and the take-off run! The emergency distance and take-off distance of course being pertinent only to performance group A aircraft.

With regard to (b) the shortened distance was no doubt adequate for the Islander; it would have been inadequate for many other larger aircraft whether public transport or otherwise.

The Original GF

3rd May 2011, 13:08

Good news about the fence. Let's hope that with this outbreak of common sense some good business momentum can be regained quickly

I think Oban will have to re-think their opening hours for that to happen.

OGF

140KIAS

3rd May 2011, 13:37

Or at the very least make the out of hours permit system more accessible. Our 'club' aircraft were recently denied permits as they are registered in the name of a limited company.

flybymike

3rd May 2011, 14:04

What isthe reasoning behind that? Many group owned private aircraft are registered to limited companies.

dont overfil

3rd May 2011, 14:29

I e mailed Dixie explaining how aircraft ownership works and asked her to pass it on.
We can only hope the outbreak of common sense will spread to this.
D.O.

dublinpilot

3rd May 2011, 14:37

Or at the very least make the out of hours permit system more accessible. Our 'club' aircraft were recently denied permits as they are registered in the name of a limited company.

I applied recently, and got an out of hours permit no problem.

Our aircraft is owned by a limited company too.

Helen49

3rd May 2011, 14:57

Agreed regarding the operating hours.

Business development will, to state the obvious, require cognisance of customer requirements, which will in turn require commercial and business nouse, preferably at the airport. Sadly, council run operations are not best known for such skills.

It will also require all parties to be pulling in the same direction. Let's hope that in these difficult days the greater good will take precedence over any partisan interests.

Run 'properly', there must be huge potential for a thriving operation in such a splendid tourist area.

VFR-Seek and Destroy

3rd May 2011, 16:55

Finally !

The council have made a decision.
Only a week or so to go and they've decided who gets to run the show.
Not bad for a public organization.
Only took them about a year.

helicopter-redeye

4th May 2011, 15:59

:ooh:Looks like some interesting parking on the Glenforsa runway at present.

... and quickly towed away.

Who needs special branch for the Olympics with a webcam around:\

AyrTC

4th May 2011, 16:58

And now the Helimed helicopter is there :(

AyrTC

The Original GF

4th May 2011, 18:00

And now the Helimed helicopter is there

Not connected with the simple ground loop.

OGF

fisbangwollop

4th May 2011, 18:35

Heavy landing Rans S7...both occupants OK, departed Cumbernauld but Sleap based. Glad all ended ok despite a wee bit of pride and aircraft dented!!!

The Original GF

4th May 2011, 20:04

Keith Durbidge former CFI at The Highland Aero Club Inverness and all round good chap passed away on Monday last.
Funeral at United Reform Church Nairn 13.30 Sunday May 8th.
Distinguished Flying Medal - 16 April 1943
1323273 Sergeant Keith DURBIDGE, No. 683 Squadron.
This airman has completed many missions. He has rendered excellent service, obtaining much valuable information often in the face of opposition both from enemy aircraft and ground defences. He has displayed skill, courage and determination of a high order.

DFC - 4 May 1945
Flight Lieutenant Keith DURBRIDGE*, D.F.M. (143999), R.A.F.V.R., 542 Sqn

*Note the spelling mistake in the DFC

Blue skys Keith.

OGF

PH-UKU

8th May 2011, 22:55

Get yer bums back up to Oban ...

fisbangwollop

9th May 2011, 08:12

PHUKU.....Is this the company that is going to sponsor Oban in the future then?? :-) Burton's Foods :: Homepage (http://www.burtonsfoods.com/)

mad_jock

9th May 2011, 09:27

So whats actually changed to allow common sense to break out.

Personally they should get rid of the out of hours thing and have 2 sets of opening hours licensed and unlicensed and then shut and out of hours permit required.

The Original GF

9th May 2011, 11:41

So whats actually changed to allow common sense to break out.

A great deal of hard work and negotiation between Argyll Aero Club and an individual at ABC who realises that, if you are going to operate an airport you need to engage with those who understand not only the business of aviation but business in general.

Well done everybody:D

OGF

Captain Smithy

9th May 2011, 19:47

Agree with MJ, many other airfields allow out-of-hours ops unlicensed, think this would be very useful at Oban, hopefully the winds of common sense shall continue.

Good to see the start of petty politics being put to one side.

Smithy

140KIAS

9th May 2011, 20:10

A&BC do allow out of hours operation, at which times the airfields are unlicensed. It’s just that you have to sign an indemnity and give them a copy of your insurance before they will permit out of hours operation. Cost is £38.38 for the year which is probably to cover the admin and the nice card they send you.

The scheme is now broadly in line with HIAL and given the current climate of liability and heath & safety, I can’t see the Council changing this given. Overall I think its a small price to pay for the privilege.

Otherwise it's great to see normality returning. Looking forward to many more visits in the coming months.

mad_jock

9th May 2011, 20:55

£38.38 is way over kill for what it costs for 1 person to check the paper work.

The fact that it is also linked to a pilot is also a bit of a con and well away from HIAL.

Its red tape for the sake of it.

And as I said there can be 2 sets of opening hours one with all the fire cover and and terminal open. And another set when a responsable known adult is present.

140KIAS

9th May 2011, 21:24

Mad Jock

Its doesnt have to be linked to the pilot any more. There's also the option to apply where the insurance is in 'registration of the aircraft'.

See Oban Airport Prior Permission Request | Argyll and Bute Council (http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/forms/oban-airport-prior-permission-request)

dont overfil

9th May 2011, 21:55

Out of hours permission is allowed at Perth.
Just send a copy of insurance. That's how it should be.
D.O.

140KIAS

14th May 2011, 19:51

Sorry but this was just too good to resist

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/167033_192644570764479_154506021245001_649393_6375692_n.jpg

Capt Whisky Whisky

14th May 2011, 21:30

Spot the missing 9 firecrew?:E

WW

Dawdler

14th May 2011, 21:40

Whose missing? Lets do a roll call:
Pugh
Pugh
Barnie McGrew
Cuthbert
Dibble
Grub.

No, everyone seems to be there..

140KIAS

14th May 2011, 22:42

the other nine are trying to work out how to get the fire engine through the door

Ye Olde Pilot

15th May 2011, 21:49

Has Mr J said OK?
Shaun Lees was a big fan.

billiboing

5th Jun 2011, 21:26

Seems world war three is happening at Oban as we speak. The airfield council staff spent twenty minutes telling me how the refuelling company put sand into the fire truck, then put a fence up to stop them operating. All of it probably enough for a liable case on its own! I had only just arrived!

Then met the refuelling guys who seemed a nice guy, and he told me of all the woes and wasted money up there! He didnt slate anyone though.

Then flew and WOW- what a lovely place to fly- the scenery is breathtaking.

Such a pity they cant all get on- it could be one of the nicest GA fields in the country. As it is however it just has this gloom hanging around like low cloud at 5ft! And whilst the council are only doing their job- they are doing it to the letter. Wear yellow high viz jackets, Was asked to radio before start, before taxi to the hold ( at least 10ft away from where i started) radio for back track, radio to line up, radio to take off, radio clear of the circuit, radio rejoining, radio descending deadside, radio overhead the airfield, radio downwind, radio base leg, radio finals, radio clear of the runway. This is all fine BUT I WAS THE ONLY AIRCRAFT FOR MILES AROUND.

In fact the only conflicting traffic was the fireman walking his dog right in the middle of the runway!! Makes no sense to me any of it! And it is only an advisory service! Not at all professionally run. Rules for the sake of rules and the real safety stuff forgotten!

Made less radio calls going into sun and fun where I was number 16 on finals.-

Personally I wouldnt fly in there and would advise others to stay clear. Pity as the locals are all really nice guys!

mad_jock

5th Jun 2011, 21:52

They still bang on about the Massacre of Glencoe which happened in 1692 on the west coast.

So the current dispute will be good for a fair few years yet I am afraid. It won't even finish if the airport shuts and all the parties are in thier graves after departing of natural causes.

eharding

5th Jun 2011, 22:16

it could be one of the nicest GA fields in the country.

It was once, and may yet be again.

Had the Yak in there a couple of times last week, and as ever the place to be is at the Northern end, consuming tea and jammy dodgers, and enjoying good company.

We deal with the stuff at the Southern end because we have to, not that it has any real benefit.

Keep going back, is my advice, and hopefully you will gradually see things change for the better.

mad_jock

5th Jun 2011, 22:56

Or get an out of hours permit.

Maoraigh1

6th Jun 2011, 19:50

"Went into Oban today!- Never again!"
Went in to Oban on Friday 3 June. No problems. Everyone very pleasant. I don't recall radio calls being specified. It was busier than Inverness. Would you object to making routine radio calls there?

Helen49

6th Jun 2011, 20:50

May be 'Steak and Chips' would be better staying away.

Perhaps FISO training was taking place or perhaps the FISO just wished to do what the book says he/she should do!

Just look at the number of incidents and accidents in aviation caused by people NOT following the rules.......as a relatively new FISO unit, scrutinised by the regulator, surely experienced aviators should be encouraging the use of standard procedures. Such practice by the FISOs will be invaluable on the days when it is 'busier than Inverness'!

billiboing

6th Jun 2011, 20:58

Does Inverness have fireman walking dogs on the middle of the runway whilst the only aircraft for miles is landing as well then- No I think not- would probably be alittle more professional.

Does Inverness give you a long story about all its troubles and how you shouldnt buy fuel from there cos the seller puts sand in the fire engine fuel tanks etc etc.

To be quite frank Im not interested in all the in fighting up there. I get enough rubbish Mon- Fri at work and go flying to get away from politics and in fighting.

The point I was making is that a really lovely airfield, in breathtaking scenery with some great local people is being- imho, spoiled by some council workers

I have no objection to radio calls- it was the double standards. Safety is not just about following the rules- it is also about common sense.

mad_jock

6th Jun 2011, 21:44

But then again Helen it has in the past been handled traffic loads many factors higher than they are just now and nobody has come to grief before this farce and I am sure it will again when the council runs out of money to keep the current situation.

And lets face it the FISO's there arn't that bright, it will be good to tell the local birds how they sorted this snotty pilot out when they are out in the pub but does nothing for flight safety apart from royally pissing everyone off. In fact its more likely to cause an incident because the pilot will be flying off fumming about being dicked around royaly.

And the some total of all the MORs they filed on pilots so far, absolutely diddly squat. I believe the CAA even stopped contacting pilots and asking for their side of events when a MOR was filed by Oban. Thats third hand though from folk who were told they were getting a MOR filed on by the FISO and never heard anything.

And if there was an incident it would quite quickly decend into a load of headless chickens running around bumping into each other.

GaryS

6th Jun 2011, 22:04

Went in to Oban on Friday 3 June. No problems. Everyone very pleasant. I don't recall radio calls being specified. It was busier than Inverness. Would you object to making routine radio calls there?

I was at Oban on the 2nd June for the first time, I found it to be the friendliest airfield i've ever been to. Simple radio calls, friendly staff - i'll be back when the weather improves! (east coast of scotland sitting in glorious sunshine and the west coast covered with low cloud),

eharding

6th Jun 2011, 23:21

And lets face it the FISO's there arn't that bright

Ouch. I wasn't going to be that direct this time around.

This time around, however, there was no repeat of the "It's in front of you" information from the FISO about helipad locations from three miles out, and I wasn't sworn at for lack of high viz having ventured 6 feet from the helicopter.

Mitigating factors may have been a) I wasn't in a helicopter and b) the particularly grumpy high-viz-fetishist member of staff on that occasion wasn't to be seen.

Part of the problem is that I doubt anyone manning the Oban tower has ever been higher than the tower itself, and never practised aviation in the area.

Ultimately, they have my pity, rather than scorn - if you were going to do things all over again, you would look for a few hundred hours SEP experience, in situ, for Oban FISOs.

I might be wrong, but you don't get the impression they really understand what happens when the wheels or skids leave the ground, or what it is like to be scudding back in suddenly marginal conditions.

I have to say, though, the painting of ground markings is first rate. Millimetre perfect.

The local government's experiment with the Euro gravy-train has led to a major boom for local block-paving, building and tarmac contractors, but done nothing to promote aviation in the area.

They should hand the whole lot back to the entrepreneurs and businessmen in the area who understand how to make a runway part of a viable business, rather than those who think simply having possession of a runway is a meal-ticket for life.

wizardofos

7th Jun 2011, 06:05

Flew in to Oban for the first time on Friday 3rd.
What a delightful experience.
Everyone helpful, PPR easy, fuelling easy, landing fee reasonable, breathtaking scenery - best day's flying I have had.

Sorry to be the bringer of good news.

Helen49

7th Jun 2011, 07:27

As per usual on this thread, lots of people who find Oban Airfield to be a delightful place in EVERY respect. Friendly helpful staff doing their best to provide a good service.

Shame about the politics and a shame that criticism too often becomes so personal. Also a shame that some of the personnel, whom one may presume have mortgages and families, are likely to find themselves out of work in the near future.

To those who have such difficulty with the airfield and its personnel, don't go there. Find another airfield to visit; lots of them around.

H49

maxred

7th Jun 2011, 07:36

Well I was there Friday too. A beautiful day. I got a row though for not PPR'ing. Had my Flight Plan - but I did not phone:mad:

However, part from that, very pleasant. Busy too:D

jgs43

7th Jun 2011, 07:43

"To those who have such difficulty with the airfield and its personnel, don't go there. Find another airfield to visit; lots of them around. "

Unfortunately this attitude is why Oban looses out.

The unwillingness to accept criticism (constructive or otherwise). :ugh:

Without investigating such criticism and acting upon the findings nothing will change.

dont overfil

7th Jun 2011, 10:54

Probably not that easy to change things now.

The problem started when the council decided it wanted a mini Heathrow and the airfield ops manual was written with that in mind. The employees are following it to the letter because they are told to. It is a pity that the airport has not been able to employ "aviation people" but there is a relatively small population to draw from around Oban.

Don't let it put you off. It's a great destination. After all you are still reading this forum even if it is 50% s**t.

D.O.

gasax

7th Jun 2011, 12:21

A brilliant example of what hospitality in this area means from some people - (for those not in the know it has meant in the distant past murdering your guests in their beds!!!)

Mostly it just means hotels where all the staff are from well outside the area.

Most of the locals who know anything are just very embarassed by the mess the council have made - it does tend to make them pretty sensitive though...

The 'rules' which are inconsistently applied are a pain - but it is the only practical place to get fuel. I generally try to fly to the west and back on full tanks to avoid having to stop there for a whole variety of reasons.

To those who have to stop - it is no worst than many regional airports which have delusions way above their actual position - it is simply even more incongruous. So read the guide, ask for PPR, religiously follow the rules and your visit will probably be fine. ('fine' local venacular for good!)

mfalcon

7th Jun 2011, 12:24

I was also in Oban on Friday 3rd - everyone there was extremely helpful, friendly and the fantastic weather certainly helped! It's been a while since I last went up, but I'll certainly be going again soon...

Rod1

7th Jun 2011, 14:26

I was a fairly regular visitor to Oban. The airfield won awards for best GA airfield two years running if I remember. I am not restricted to Oban because of fuel so I can chose to visit or not. If the rules are changed to “conventional GA” I will certainly try it again, but I have stayed away for some time. Call for startup is way OTT and all the MOR’s were a joke which has hurt its reputation.

Rod1

Cows getting bigger

7th Jun 2011, 19:59

I have always liked visiting both Glenforsa and Oban and have never had an issue other than trying to find a chap who is meant to collect landing fees having his mid afternoon doze.

I think there are some here who forget what a wonderful part of the world Mull and its surrounds are.

steel2011

8th Jun 2011, 14:30

And lets face it the FISO's there arn't that bright, it will be good to tell the local birds how they sorted this snotty pilot out when they are out in the pub but does nothing for flight safety apart from royally pissing everyone off. In fact its more likely to cause an incident because the pilot will be flying off fumming about being dicked around royaly.

I think this is wrong:=. They are just doing their job and in my mind they are doing a quite good job now. Yes they have to follow rules, like us all at our jobs we have rules, and not to forget GA pilots also have rules.

I think MAD JOCK should appoligise for this statement, GA pilots should come back to OBAN as much as possible and enjoy their time at Oban. There has been problems in the past and still some ongoing but don't we all think that it is about time we all grew up and enjoyed this great pat of Scotland to its full.

I think Oban can take any critisim put to them, they can be helpful and they are mostly always very friendly. Why not come into Oban, :ok: let them know what the GA pilots would like to see at Oban and you never know it could just happen. :D

So MAD JOCK maybe you should go in and speak to the FISO's, but that borders on slander:\.

Oban Airport should be great and they should all work together:E and make it even better.

gasax

8th Jun 2011, 17:21

This thread is full of new posters singing the praises of Oban. Presumalby every staff member is a Pprune member by now!

Well yes it was good. As it presently stands it is bearable but not much more. Choosing to visit somewhere where the rules are nonsensical, their application inconsistent and the welcome pretty variable? Why bother?

To all those new posters - fix it!!!!

Stop wanting the rest of the world to change to accept the warped reality of Argyll and Bute Cooncil and sort out the mess.

Only then will the aircraft flock in - remember before all the cr$p it was the best GA airfield in the UK - that will never recur with the present nonsense fix the stupid rules and the jobsworth MOR-ing!!!

Maoraigh1

8th Jun 2011, 20:37

"Stop wanting the rest of the world to change to accept the warped reality of Argyll and Bute Cooncil and sort out the mess. ----- and the jobsworth MOR-ing!!! "
In the rest of the UK, you seem to have procedures similar to Oban at manned airfields. What does MOR stand for? I thought it was MANDATORY occurrence Report.
The A&B guys are simply trying to carry out what they've been told are the rules. A&B C is likely to be doing what the expert(s) it consulted advised it to do.
Oban is still a very welcoming airfield, both at the fuel and the terminal. I am not, and never have been, an employee or member of A&B, or its predecessor authorities. (Nor an A&B resident.)

mad_jock

8th Jun 2011, 20:43

I have spoken to them thats why I know they aren't very bright.

They arn't doing a good job, you should maybe get some of the fiso's from Barra or Sum to come across and show how it is done well. I might add they had the same bloke teaching them so its not his fault.

And you seem to forget most pilots have range of airports to compare against which is why we have more of a realistic opinion about the true level of service. Oban is getting it wrong.

And remember when your in the pub with a load of what you think are smelly divers talking about the Breda some of them are also pilots. And getting some poor sod to taxi round in circles 4 times to prove a point and boasting about it tends to prove the point about not being very bright.

Your your own worst enemys, until you can see that there isn't much hope of things improving.

MOR is as you say but obviously nobody at the council or airport has read what in the list of manditory things are http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP382.PDF

Ther system is not there to be used as a whipping device, its there to provide a "mechanism to collect, evaluate, process and store occurance data". So Oban has missed the point if it thinks that filling on pilots is going to put them on the naughty step with the CAA, because it doesn't. If anything it proves the point that if you landed before the licensed area of the runway at oban it was actually a safe thing to do because they had 100's of MORs on the subject and zero incidents.

I suspect most MOR's from Oban will get filed under grade E and never see the light of day again.