Air Cadet Gliding pix in the 80s (pre glass)

[WE992]

Another interesting photo at the link below:

Schneider DFS 108-49 Grunau Baby II, VT917, Royal Air Force (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1304874/)

[GliFly]

A S/L Robinson was fond of saying, "those Halesland dry stone walls weigh a-ton-a-yard"! here is the proof.

[Dan Winterland]

The Sky was sold as an insurance write off by the GSA in the mid 80s after it was damaged in a heavy landing after a cable break at Syerston. I was the winch driver. I often wondered what had happened to it.

[WE992]

DW

I have the accident date as 6 July 85.

The photo at the link below should bring back some happy memories:

Slingsby T.34 Sky, RAFGSA 876, RAF Gliding and Soaring Association (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1064182/)

[Dan Winterland]

Thanks Al, does bring back some memories. I have some pictures of her somewhere - I didn't scan them so they're probably in my mother in law's loft in the UK.

As for the accident date, I will take your word for it. I only remember it being a summer day in the mid 80s. It wasn't actually a cable break that caused the accident. IIRC, it was a slow acceleration on the start of the winch launch caused by the drag of the skid (no wheel on the Sky) the cable stretching and then ''catapaulting'' the glider forward and airborne so that it overran the cable and the rings backreleased. The pilot didn't react and stalled it on from about 50'. The damage wasn't great, but the GSA decided to take the insurance money and get rid of her.

A bit of a shame as she was quite a nice old bird. Climbed on a f@rt, but not a great performer between thermals though! The ETPS students used to fly her on aerotow with just a brief. The old TP course used to have flights like that in the syllabus to expose the trainee TPs to all sorts of flying. She was replaced with an Open Cirrus later on.

[Dan Winterland]

Scanned from a book in my collection called "The Beauty of Gliding'' from 1960. No other details except the caption ''Coming in to land''.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/t21.jpg

[Frelon]

I recently found the following photographs and thought I would share them with fellow PPRuNe followers of this thread.

This was our Eagle winch together with our 1 ton Austin cable retrieve vehicle. Note the concours condition of the winch with white wall tyres!!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/Austin1TonEagleWinch.jpg

The T53 arrived for a quick evaluation and for filming of a COI Air Cadet recruiting piece. Rumour had it that the T53, being a heavy piece of kit, would not achieve a useful height from a small airfield like Kenley in conjunction with the underpowered winches.

How many people does it take to ground handle a T53??

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/T53.jpg

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/T53-2.jpg

It was taken out of the trailer and rigged on the grass (snow) in front of the Kenley control tower. In the top picture you can actually see the edge of the signals area beside the glider. Everybody wanted to have a look at the potential future of Air Cadet gliding!

Here you can see it rigged in front of the married quarters...

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/T53-3.jpg

....before being towed out to the launch point for filming.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/T53-4.jpg

A fabulous sunny day was 8th March 1970, and with snow lying on the ground made a wonderful backdrop for the COI Film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9n1FJP3yBM&NR=1


Enjoy!!

[POBJOY]

Great Images Mick and the Austin still looking in VGC considering its age and has recovered from the bow and arrow incident !!!
I see the MB Wild Winch tyres are not as delivered (they came with ballon tyres) for grass use, and who stole those lovely wooden chocks we had (bricks indeed).
This begs the question where was the store of the WW variety, and what were they really used for!!!
The secret to moving a T53 was to have a short length of rope with a loop and use the ottfur attachment.
I still think we misssed the boat with the 53 as winter flying would have been increased,and the design would have improved and evolved with use, plus there were many days it could have operated when the 'barges'
had to be left inside.
Slingsbys just needed some time to adapt from chisels to rivets but i think they would have got there in the end.
I do not recall many days when flying took place with snow on the ground, but it made for a great opportunity for 'spinning' the CFI's new beetle down the main runway.

[Frelon]

......actually Pete, those "white wall" tyres were original issue, but they were black wall tyres then :rolleyes:

It is just that we winch driver staff cadets had time on our hands whilst the then instructors were extolling the virtues of their new aircooled VW Beetles at the launch point :(

It is amazing what you can do with a few sticks of chalk out of the lecture room :D

[POBJOY]

Ah all those Beetles,as opposed to your regime when the S/cdts and JI had motorcycles.
When i came along with my black 1200 55 model it made 5 in total.
Its claim to fame was having major surgery in the famous Belfast hangar alongside the ghosts of Camels,SE5's,Siskins,Bulldogs,504's,Tutors,Harts,Furies, Gladiators,Hurricanes,Spitfires,T/moths,Harvards,Chipmunks,Ansons,MkIII's and Barges.
All that history lost in the blaze of 78 together with the winch and Austin in your image.
At least the airfield lives on in a proud way having spent its time defending the realm. God Bless Her. Great images Mick.

[WE992]

Mk 3 at Weston SM.

Slingsby T.31B Cadet TX3, XN251, Royal Air Force (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1313134/)

[Mechta]

I received sad news from the Kestrel Gliding Club (RAF Odiham) CFI today:

"It is with much regret that I must announce that Chris Wick* passed away early today.

.....for now I am sure your thoughts are with Jenny, Diana and the family."

Chris had a major operation earlier this year. As soon as he was allowed to drive he was back at the Kestrel GC manning the radio and doing everything could to help. Soon he was back in the air, and only three weeks ago he resoloed. Sadly he fell ill a week ago and did not recover. He will be sadly missed.

Chris had logged over 13000 flights, mostly in T21s and T31s instructing successive generations of Air Cadets. He was very proud of every one of 'his' cadet's successes and a good many current RAF pilots and ATPLs will have had their first flights with him.

*Wing Commander Wick OBE, formerly Officer Commanding Middlesex Wing ATC

[longer ron]

Was that 'Dipper' Wicks who was on the staff at 613 Halton in the early 70's ?
If so that is sad news - he was a real gent :(

[JEM60]

LONGERON. Tony Wicks of 613 Halton died quite a few years ago, maybe 10 or more. He lived just a few doors away from me in Aylesbury, and contracted liver cancer. He stuck it out bravely until the inevitable happened. I have to say that his funeral was the happiest funeral I have ever been to. We were rolling in the aisles at the stories. His wife insisted that everybody wore bright clothing, and was in a happy frame of mind. It was a lovely send-off. I remember seeing Ken Baylis there, but I|can't recall other faces I'm afraid. As you say, the complete gentleman, he was my CO when I was a cadet at 1365 Aylesbury squadron ATC, before I became a Staff Cadet at Halton. Regards, John.

[Arkwright]

I had the pleasure of serving with both of them. Sadly Dipper died from cancer some years ago after serving with 613 RAF Halton for many years. Longer Ron, you are right when you describe him as a true gentleman. Indeed he was very proud of his retired pastime position of a "Gentlemans Gentleman" at Ascot Racecourse.

Wing Commander Chris Wick OBE was my Wing Commander at Middlesex Wing ATC. I was a Cadet of his, he interviewed me for a CWO position, and latterly I was a Squadron Commander on one of his units.

I'm not sure I can think of someone who has pushed Air Cadet gliding more enthusiastically than Chris Wick. Although I never actually flew with Chris, his enthusiasm and encouragement for all things aviation had influenced me enough to join the VGS movement and eventually change career, and indeed, I ended up with an ATPL and still work commercially in corporate aviation.

After gliding at Hendon, Manston and Halton, Chris continued working actively to promote Air Cadet Glding by becoming WGLO at Middx Wing. Even when retired from the ATC, Chris worked enthusiastically at Kestral GC and was a stalwort of their team.

Chris was instrumental and a driving force in the "new" 618 VGS at RAF Odiham. Without his organisational skills, and faultless cooperation between Kestral and HQAC, the South East would be without this much needed VGS.

RIP both Dipper and Chris, you are, and will, both be missed.

[chevvron]

As an ex staff cadet at 613, I knew Dipper very well. I was WGLO for Herts & Bucks Wing when he became ill. He was still at serving as admin officer at 613 although he was over 55, and I had heard he was in having an operation. Next saturday I was amazed to see him back at Halton; very shortly after he was gone.
When I 'relinquished' my commision, (my WingCo decided I was not putting in enough time as a sqdn officer although I was travelling to Halton every other week which meant I was doing the hours) I had to give up being WGLO, and it was suggested I might apply for the post of admin officer at 613, but at the time it felt like jumping into dead mans shoes, so I declined.
I met Chris Wick twice, first on my senior officers course at Newton (he'd just got his 'scraper' ring) where he definitely 'promoted' Air Cadet gliding - he was commuting to Manston from his home in Middlesex! The second time was at Farnborough when he accompanied someone from HQAC to investigate the possibility of putting a VGS in there. I was naturally asked to be part of the discussions. NB : It was feasible then due to low traffic levels at weekends, but the noise output from Vigilants - I did admin officer on the first Vigilant course at Little Rissington and we had numerous complaints mainly from 'newcomers' who weren't there when it was CFS - would probably have been a problem so nothing more happened.

[longer ron]

Thanks for the info Gents,they were obviously both nice guys.
When I was on 613 I was a very shy/quiet youngster and all the instructors were somewhat older than me so I did not get to know them that well but Tony Wicks was always friendly and helpful.
I am truly sorry to hear of the passing of both these Gents!

rgds baz

[kevmusic]

RIP Chris. Flew with him a couple of times at Manston - a very smooth and accomplished gentleman pilot.

[603DX]

The photo of T.31B Cadet XN251 above reminds me of a lingering query in my mind about this type, concerning the rigging arrangement of the diagonal wing braces on examples I flew in.

On my A & B course at 613 VGS Halton in August 1957, I don't think the front diagonal wing braces had those short vertical secondary brace members installed. Also, I am not certain that the tensioned wires cross bracing was present, either. My memory could be at fault, of course!

I understand that Slingsby/Kirby gradually modified the type as time passed, for example adding spoilers as retrofits, which were definitely not fitted on the Halton examples at that time (Aug '57). So I am wondering whether those extra little vertical braces and the wire cross-bracings were also later additions to existing and new airframes?

Also, irrespective of whether the short verticals were later afterthoughts or not, can anyone tell me exactly what was their function?

[chevvron]

Those cross bracing wires had their uses. When the VGS was operating at Gaydon (631?) there were sheep grazing in one of the surrounding fields. A Mk 3 approached a bit low over these, to the extent that one of them was so startled it jumped up into the cross bracing wires and the top of its skull was sliced off, killing it!
NB: I wasn't there; I was told this story by a 631 instructor when I did admin officer for them at Little Rissington.

[Fitter2]

The bracing wires were standard on Cadet Mk 1, 2 & 3. The vertical added struts were (as far as I can recall from RAFGSA Tutors and T31s fitted to T31 as part of the spoiler mod, but not to Tutors (Cadet Mk 2). Maybe difference in all-up-weight ?

After the spoiler mod, great fun could be had by the instructor pulling individual spoiler wires to induce roll effects. Revenge for previous heavy landings............

[WE992]

The vertical struts are indeed a modification although I can not at present remember the mod number and don't have access to my files. Without the vertical struts the gliders are not allowed to be launched by aerotow.

[Phil Hawkey]

Me, at the time that POBJOY, Pete was there too, and Flt Lt Pip Phillips RAFVR, was OC. I remember CI Dawson with whom I had my first ever 'air experience' flight in the Sedburgh, 20 minutes with thermal soaring, and a Mr Skelton, Pete Sawdon, and Mr Popple of the fine military moustache, Skylarks in song and the wonderful smell of Thyme (?), securing the poor old Bessonaux hangar, and the battered old Bedford Utility 'Tilly', upon which was mounted the log-keepers with Mr Skelton's improvised Aldis lamp system the Skelt-Zignal. Forgive the nostalgia, but that's what this thread is, pure unashamed nostalgia.

This photograph was developed and printed back the ATC Squadron, 730 City of Truro, at the time by Cdt Steve Toy. Best wishes all.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7161/6511019533_4f5e6e5380_b.jpg

[astir 8]

Comment in Martin Simon's "Slingsby Sailplanes" re the T31B (Cadet Mk III)

"For aerotowing a small additional strut was added to prevent rather alarming vibrations of the front lift strut under cartain conditions of airspeed and loading. These struts had first appeared on the Motor Tutor"

Re the T8 Tutor (Cadet MK II) the same comment is made about aerotowing but there are lots of pictures of gliders without the additional strut and only one picture with the small struts fitted.

So they seem to have been standard on the Mk III but relatively unusual on the MK II.

[Fitter2]

All the RAFGSA T31s I flew had a nosehook, and aerotowing was regularly done (usually behind Chipmunks, take off flap set). Draughty, especially in the back seat, but not particularly exciting.

I'm pretty sure I never saw a Tutor with a nosehook (or 'mini-struts'), and an aerotow positioning flight was fairly uncomfortable with the stick close to and often hitting the forward stop. I didn't notice any strut vibration, but then with the general ambience and eyes glued to the tug, I don't suppose I would have noticed.

[603DX]

Thanks to all, this seems to answer my queries. To summarise my understanding of the T31 Mark III rigging situation (in August 1957):

The examples I flew did not have the small struts (or spoilers).
They probably had the bracing cross-wires.
They may have had the struts and spoilers retro-fitted later.
The aero-towing vibration of the large front struts seems a very reasonable justification for fitting the small struts!

One of the pics in earlier posts shows a Mark III being displayed on the ground at a public event, with a small boy straddling the lower end of a large front strut. He is occupying a region where cross-wire bracing should be, if fitted, so I was misled into thinking that it wasn't installed at all on some Mark III's. But thinking more about the circumstances of that occasion, and noting the glider transport trailer also shown in the pic, I conclude that it almost certainly didn't need to be fully rigged for just static display purposes at a non-flying venue. So the wires were probably just left in the trailer ...

[chevvron]

All Mk 3s at Halton had a nose hook. The problem with this was, even after you had briefed them, some of the less experienced persons at the launch point STILL attached the cable to this for a winch launch. Of course it was the duty of all staff at the launch point to watch out for this and shout 'STOP'.
Only one or two Mk3s had spoilers and these were the ones used for AEG if it was necessary to pinch one from training. This was because the spoilers were far more effective than those on the Sedburgh; I often did almost vertical descents in strong winds to faclitate a spot landing, thus reducing the turnround time for AEG.

[longer ron]

By the time I started flying at 613 (circa may 1970) - all the Mk3's had spoilers,I do not remember flying a Mk3 without spoilers - even at Spitalgate in 1969

[chevvron]

I finished at 613 (due to work commitments) late '68, so obviously as aircraft went back to Slingsby for a 'major' they were modded. I remember arriving one weekday evening to find a Landrover and trailer from Kirbymoorside outside the hangar containing a refurbished Mk3 (with spoilers) for delivery (I think it was WT910 but I could be mistaken) and in the absence of anyone more senior, I signed for it. The driver was in a hurry as he had a couple of rowing 'eights' for delivery to Henley that evening also in the trailer - I think Slingsbys built these too.

[T-21]

The Tutor single seat and the Cadet Mark 3 (T-31) suffered from compression shakes in the spars,after long service. There was a structural failure of a Tutor circa late fifties which led to modifications.

[longer ron]

From 'The Gliding Book' by Richard Serjeant and Alex Watson aka...
another one for the Kenleyites

Photo copyright Alex Watson

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/Mk3087.jpg

[603DX]

The Tutor single seat and the Cadet Mark 3 (T-31) suffered from compression shakes in the spars,after long service. There was a structural failure of a Tutor circa late fifties which led to modifications.


That is an intriguing piece of information, T-21. My interpretation of the term "compression shakes" is that it means longitudinal cracks or splits in the spar region subjected to bending compression in flight. For a T-31 that would be the upper region of the spar cross-section outside the upper diagonal brace attachments, due to cantilever bending. But for the inside parts of the wingspan between these attachments and the aircraft centreline, the lower region of the spar cross-section would be in bending compression due to lift forces acting upwards, plus the axial compression induced by the tension in the diagonal brace.

Do you know at what location the shakes occurred, along the spar length? And do you know what the remedial/preventative modifications were? In my case in 1957, the Mark III's at Halton were probably too new to suffer from long-service defects like that, but it is nevertheless "interesting" news for the many, many who have flown in these types that such a potentially serious flaw could develop! :eek:

[T-21]

Hello 603DX,
My source is "Slingsby Sailpanes" by Martin Simons,Airlife,1996 pages 62/63. To summize the rear edge of the plywood leading edge skin was attached indirectly to the wing spars. This was done on Cadets,Tutors and many other gliders. Between each pair of ribs a narrow packing strip of wood was cut and glued to the top and bottom flanges of the spar,planed and sanded level with the ribs. The plywood skin was wrapped over the leading-edge ribs and glued to them and also to the packing strips.
The packing pieces,ending abruptly at each rib station created an abrupt change of stiffness in the spar. When the wing flexed under load,concentrations of stress occurred in the spar at every rib. With long hard use(winching loads and heavy landings) the stress concentrations caused by the packing strips encouraged compression shakes which are difficult to detect. Once recognised modification schedules were issued ,Mod 80 circa 1962. I have no doubt that all ATC gliders were very well maintained to strict airworthiness requirements.
The small strut was to prevent vibration on aero-towing.
There must be many glider engineers or someone from the Vintage gliding scene who can elaborate further on this ?

[603DX]

Thanks for that clear description, T-21. Seems the locations were at the rib/spar flange junctions, and centred on the lack of continuity of the packing strips across the ribs. It would be interesting if someone who was involved or was aware of the situation could explain how Mod 80 overcame this.

[astir 8]

Hi Mr 603DX

The problem with compression shakes is that they are not actual splits or cracks. They are buckles in the wood cell walls induced by heavy compression overloading along the line of the wood grain. References are the EAA book - "Aircraft building Techniques in Wood" and the Munitions Board Aircraft Committee "Wood Aircraft Inspection and Fabrication" ANC 19. There are also good explanations available by Googling.

If a compression shake is formed, the failure strength of the wood in compression or tension is badly affected and a failure may occur unexpectedly at some future point. I suppose there are some similarities to metal fatigue.

Compression shakes apparently can be very difficult to spot - they may appear as visible lines running across the wood grain but they can also need microscopic examination and would in any case be concealed by the wing structure, paint etc.

Compression shakes mainly occur at points of stress concentration. As previously described, the system of sliding complete wing ribs down along a main spar and then glueing filler strips along the spar between the ribs effectively produced a spar with a series of stress concentrating notches in it.

On the Tutor/Cadets the strut attachment point on the spar would have been another point where stresses are considerably raised and I assume that the point at which the spar would tend to fail would be just outboard of the strut atttachment area.

On the Cadets/Tutors the stress raising points on the spars in combination with a very high number of load cycles (launches) with (probably) quite a few overspeed/oversteep winch launches with (possibly) some over-strength weak links and (almost certainly) some pretty brutal landings did result in the formation of compression shakes in some mainspars.

The remedy according to the blessed Martin Simons was that the whole wing had to be opened up to allow inspection of the spars. The packing pieces had to be removed and the ribs cut away at the point where they crossed the spars. A continuous strip of wood, effectively an auxiliary spar cap was then glued to the spar before the wing was rebuilt. As he says, if done professionally, the cost would have exceeded the value of the aircraft. But I guess that would not have been a problem for the RAF!

[603DX]

A very clear and helpful explanation, astir 8. I would imagine that the extensive wing structure modification described was only undertaken in cases where close inspection of the spars had not revealed signs of significant compression shakes.

In other words, was it more likely to be carried out as a precautionary procedure to extend the safe service life, rather than as an attempt at "repairing" already damaged wing spars?

[astir 8]

Correct. If any compression shakes had been detected during the modification process then the spar would have been scrapped.

[Prangster]

Place Kirton in Lindsey, Date Feb 1964 2 solos down 1 to go and held by showers of wintry rain and sleet crossing the airfield. 643 GS are as eager to get rid of me as I am to finish the course. Duty Inst detects a break in the weather. Wings level cable on and off we go, the KK MK3 rockets into the air! Both cdt and glider rapidly vanish into cloud..bugger.

There are tendrils of lower stuff scudding along below the main cloud base and I've just blundered into it. Now my experience level. Min No of launches and 2 solos should have spelt trouble but oddly it was almost as if I was accompanied by a particularly patient calm voiced instructor.

Voice from back seat. 'Don't panic. Drop nose, Dump cable and pop spoilers, don't turn until we drop out of this muck' It is obvious we are actually flying btween 2 layers of cloud. Thankfully the stuff below us is scattered enough to give glimpses of the ground (broken snow patches, incidentally the best camouflage ever invented, airfields just vanish into the general landscape)

OK flown out of it now, but the winch is a good way behind us. Voice. 'Altitude check turn cross wind and watch for any cloud, barely out of turn when. 'Ok lad now pop spoilers a second or two and turn downwind. Overcook the turn slightly I want us placed well inside the airfield boundary. Got that' 'Yes sir' You've got enough altidue for a short downwind led and quick base leg but there isn't going to be a lot of airfield to land in so don't let it float on finals. 'Yes sir'

We duly fangle round the shortened circuit and he's right of course. There isn't much airfield in front of me and by the time Mk3 and cdt finally slither to a halt the boundary hedge is a lot closer than I've ever seen it before.

The rescue posse duly pile out of the Landrover with a relieved DI asking nonchalantly. 'Go all right did it? Just for a moment there I thought you vanished into cloud. 'I did' Oh! Better not mention it too often it's not supposed to happen' I know.........

Happy days but my guardian angel worked bloody hard that day. He's popped up twice since both times after near fatal cardiac troubles. I often fly that circuit many times in my minds eye and just know I couldn't have done it on my own. Discuss....:confused:

[JEM60]

First solo's can also be very exciting!!. Winch failure at 300. Dumped cable [possibly a bit under tension] 'S' turned as per book, landed safely. I was amazed I kept so cool about it whilst it was happening, as I always considered myself not particularly capable of being 'cool' under pressure. Only problem was, that later, as a Staff Cadet, [fortunately dual] I lost control on the winch,'!!' got into an overbank situation which was heading rapidly for disaster until my guardian angel in the back dumped the cable and recovered it for me. To this day, I have no idea why I didn't do it myself, I guess I just stuck with it too long. Later, as a PPL, I never failed to overshoot an approach I was unhappy with, so I must have learnt something from it!!! [613Halton]

[chevvron]

This 'being cool under pressure' seems to be endemic for 613 Staff cadets. I was a P2 flying air experience in VX275 one evening off what is now runway 02 (compass base to Aston Clinton corner), the OIC line (now a BGA national coach) told me 'if you overshoot the launch point you can drag it back by yourself'. I arrived on base leg with a little too much height even with judicious use of spoilers, so a did a 'beat' only to find the northerly component in the wind took me too far to get back over the hangar next to the old 613 hut, so I decided to go for the field to the south of the airfield (on the right as you approach from the main camp) planning my approach to do a steep turn to miss a tree and some grazing cows and running this all over coolly in my mind whilst adjusting speed and spoilers and briefing my passenger.
Unfortunately a large tree stump got in the way and in trying to miss it I ground looped and tore the skid off.

[Prangster]

We were probably trained by the best gliding instructors in the world but were too young and naive to know it. Result was that when things did go pear shaped we were more than able to cope. I did a bit of staffing on 644 and came to appreciate just how brilliant the deliverers of knowledge were. It was almost as if they breathed the essence of flight into their charges by a strange form of gliding osmosis. Taking my cdts for air ex apart I didn't do any serious gliding again until doing a course at Pocklington in the late 1980's. It was almost as if the twenty odd year gap didn't exist. Ducks and water come to mind.

[JEM60]

Apart from Family considerations, I always look back on my time as a Staff cadet at 613 as some of the most enjoyable days of my life. How privileged we were to get all that flying and life experience so young!!!! Prangster, as you say, the knowledge never leaves you. After 17 years of not flying anything at all, I solo'ed in a Cessna 150 after 4hrs 10 mins dual. All power pilots should be glider pilots first. Such happy times!!

[T-21]

Jem60, Totally agree all private pilots should start gliding first. Would teach better stick and rudder pilots as we fly closer to the stall and they would be better equipped to deal with a dead engine .

[chevvron]

I agree too; I've never undershot in a powered aircraft.
It's like riding a motor bike makes you a better car driver.

[Prangster]

Mate of mine mega hours on 747's eventually got into a glider cockpit...Cue chaos. I think the runway perspective was so different he just couldn't sort it

[clivewatson]

http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q548/skydanceraviation/PrefectoverKYMess.jpg

I know there at least three here who will recognize the place, but can you figure out the date?

[POBJOY]

Great image Clive (was it one of Alex's med format one's !!).There are some clues:-
WE 989 (not a Kenley resident) was pranged (written off) in june 71 so that gives us a finish date,and the number of original Airfield buildings standing helps to give us a 'start date'.
Points of interest. Aircraft firing butts stiill there,Fuel Farm looks servicable (gone by early 60's),Airfield dump looks clear of 'lincoln' and later wrecks.
Prefect seems to be in original siver/yellow scheme.
Officers new garages in nearest e-pen.
Runway white crosses indicate that the powered flying element has finally departed,(circa 1958-9), they are fairly new and are still being weathered.
Tennis players in 'whites,but not enough resolution to check the cars.
So i am having a shot a 1959-61 ish, and certainly post RFTsky film.
PM me for an interesting image !!
Anyway what a fantastic place and should have been properly preserved as a definative BoB airfield.
Frelon will no doubt be able to help.

[clivewatson]

Hi Pobjoy,


The photo was found at KY about a year ago by Keith Chandler, the current boss. We assume it was taken by Alex, but it is not confirmed. Frelon guessed some time ago by email, but I don't recall the date he put on it.

PM on route now, cheers!

[POBJOY]

The image looks very 'med format' to me so rather points to Alex.
Frelon would have been a staff cadet at that time so will remember the Lincoln and Spitfire. Of course if they had been proper staff cadets then they would never have let the Spit get trashed (it should have been hidden in the gliding hangar).To think i spirited away a 3inch rocket with fins and its associated warhead (two trips on a bicycle) before they were 'dozed' into the ground.How anyone managed to fly in those wellington boots amazes me when i think about it.

[Frelon]

Oh, those were the days!

I did my A & B at Hawkinge (all those WRAFs) in summer of 1959 and applied to be a Staff Cadet at Kenley and did my first flight there in April 1960 with Roger Munt.

I can well remember the half of the airfield that we could not use because of the rugby and football goal posts - shows up well in the picture above, so a small airfield made even smaller by this restriction in the early days.

I cannot remember the runway numbers (31) being so white and bright so would suggest that the date is probably just after the airfield was closed to regular flying, but before I joined in 1960, so Pobjoy's guess of around 1958/59 is probably near the mark.

George Nunn was CO, and Johnny Gilbert CFI and we only flew Saturday afternoons and Sundays. When we built up a good team of staff cadets we badgered the hocifers to see whether we could come to Kenley on Friday evenings and get to fly both days every weekend.

In my first year at Kenley I did the staggering sum of 64 flights (only 5 in the T21). I wonder how many flights today's staff cadets get in a year??

[POBJOY]

Frelon when was the Lincoln removed,as i do not remember seeing any of it circa 1960 on.I will not mention the 'cloud searchlight' !! (situated near the old aviation fuel farm). Were they still using 'bats' and intermediate signallers when you started,or had George started to improve the situation with an 'aldis' on a raised frame by then, (before the Airfield Control Caravan arrived).Looking down on 'Alex's image it is interesting to see the original Battle of Britain op's room (looks like a bungalow) surrounded by its earth banks (some protection),and the mess coke store (raided by me in a noddy Landrover on the occaision of a 615 Christmas do in the old parachute store to feed the black stove) Tree came from the O-Mess woods assisted by one DJN.
Indeed they were the days, Hot Anglia on Cinturato tyres,CFI's GT Cortina,and a veritable fleet of Beetles.

[clivewatson]

The intermediate signaller must have still been in use in circa 1960 because I recall the daglo bats being used by someone positioned on the pill box nearest to the Wattenden.

When did the rugby and soccer posts get removed?

Frelon's Anglia, and the two GT Cortina's (Alex and Brian Hughes) were a bit later in 1965.

Off for my afternoon nap now.

[POBJOY]

Even Brian Hughes succumbed to a Beetle eventually,i always remember his comments with regard to his GT Cortina (Its only done 56000 and its F.....d) this summed up the situation quite well.
One of the perks of being a staff cadet was driving the various cars back from the launch point after the days flying;the GT's were considered to be 'quite sporty' drifting around the peri track,so were usually the first back !!

[GliFly]

Does anyone remember a staff cadet named Robin Vince? He was on an advanced course with me at Halesland in April '59. He was a great Connie Francis fan and kept on playing her latest record on the juke box in the NAAFI at Locking every evening.

[POBJOY]

615 had a VRT 'import' from a local Squadron (near Croydon) called RV.I was not aware he had prev gliding experience or had been a s/cdt, but he became a categorised instructor with 615,and i bought his old AC Greyhound (1947) two litre saloon off him for £20.
May be a different person,but that old AC could carry all the staff cadets in one go which meant we could afford to fill it up with fuel for trips to London and the West Country.
This aluminium bodied machine was finished in a rather tatty black,so one non flying (weather) w/end there was a mass rubbing down with the help of the course cadets and then hand painted in fetching wedgewood blue enamel coach finish, and christened COBRA EATER (on the front wings)
The 'triple' SU carb engine had a vast 'hatch' that swung open on the rocker cover to allow copious quantities of OMD110 to be administered with a gallon at a time.
When the starter failed we just used the handle all the time,and when the generator packed up we found a large 'surplus' battery and added it to the system that got charged once a week.
Its finest hour was probably its run from Kenley to Dishforth (Yorks) where it towed a dead beetle back using a shock absorber rope tied to the bumper.The sight of this beetle upside down in the hangar (1917 Belfast) being stripped by the ever helpful course cadets took some explaining to the 'powers to be',but by then we had what we wanted and the empty carcase was lifted by many willing hands onto a glider retrieve trolley and secreted in the O-Mess woods.(its probably still there).
Come on Farns where is the picture !!!
Said AC was sold for £15 to someone in Cornwall who took it home and who's father 'exploded' on seeing it.

[GliFly]

Sounds like the same Robin Vince.
Funny you should mention OMD110 oil. At 616 Henlow in 1964 I bought a new Mini Cooper. My great friend, the late Stan Easton who later became Flt. Lt. Easton at Swanton Morley, was helping me to do an oil change, but whilst I was fitting a new filter, he forgot to re-fit the sump plug. So I poured 1 gallon of the latest Mobil Multigrade oil in the top and it came out the bottom and onto the grass at the edge of the airfield. So we went to MT section and 'obtained' a gallon of OMD110. It turned out to be the best oil I ever used back then!

[POBJOY]

It appears that 110 was a mono grade SAE 30 oil, so would have suited most applications,and especially when free !!. As Staff Cadets we were not entitled to 'mileage' when helping at the Centres or Halesland,which was a sore point for those of us that also had a 'Cat',as non-cat CI's and VRT were onto the 'claim' system.
This meant 'arrangements' had to be made to provide enough capacity to do the return runs on what was available from the 'contaminated fuel' stock. If the entire return run could be done without a 'bought' top up then we were happy.They should have been called the MB (Friesian or Jersy) Winches they were milked so often. Flew the T53 with Stan on a Cat check (i think we even had an a-tow) for some upper air work. I seem to recall that it was expected to attend a certain ale house in Norwich as part of the course.The instructors at Swanton were quite happy to operate the T53,and it certainly pointed the way we should have been going even if it needed some 'sorting' in the build quality. Never really understood the reason for the 'Chipmunk' incident and missed his cheery approach to ATC Gliding.

[Frelon]

Pobjoy, keep an eye out for one of those black Omega's parking outside your house (or whatever they use these days!)!

Yes, Stan Easton was a gent, one of the old school of ATC instructors.

[POBJOY]

Let him that hath no sin cast the first stone !!!
This could be just like the 'phone hacking' saga,and my list will make Watergate seem pretty tame.
Anyway it is locked away in a Clotted Cream mine near the Pasty Quarry in ......... so everyone is quite safe until 2095 when it will be released on You Tube.
If i had known 110 was a SAE 30 i could have used it in the Beetle when short of Castrol.
And of course the reason Winch drivers never had the mk8 goggles issued (as was their right) was because certain instuctors used them for motorcycling 'now where did i put that list'.

[GliFly]

Yes, Stan Easton was a good friend and we were fellow apprentices at de Havilland Aircraft, Hatfield from 1957 to '62. We were also staff cadets together at 616, became CI's at the same time and went to our first instructors course together at Swanton Morley in my old 850 Mini in 1963.
I stopped gliding to concentrate on international motor sport, but Stan went on to greater things in flying. The crash whick killed him at Aboyne was very sad and in no way his fault. He was flying the tug and the glider was allowed to climb too much, pulling up the tail of the tug.
As has been said, a great guy.

[GliFly]

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa449/Cooper0001/JBandSJEinSed.jpg

Photo shows Stan Easton on the left, with John Bennett at Henlow in about 1962.

[chevvron]

Ah those were the days: open cockpit barge (before they added those terrible canopies) elbow over the side, lots of padding irrespective how warm it was on the ground etc etc ..........

[T-21]

Ahh Chevvron,
Reminds me of my 60 odd flights in T-21s at Cranwell 1967 as a 14 year old. Once went to 6000feet in cloud for most of the 50 minute flight with Dan Delap off a winch launch. I was in shorts/T-shirt and we were both cold and damp taking it in turns to fly and spinning to get down it was so thermic that day. Aferwards with temps in the 70's on the ground they put us both in a sealed car until we had warmed up.

[POBJOY]

I think the 'canopies' were a 'centre trial' rather than general use Chev.
I was sent off in one to do to AE flights for Station staff as a perk for a weeks s/cadeting at Swanton.
Due to it being a rather damp afternoon the launch soon turned into an IMC affair as the beast misted up like a bathroom mirror.
Not wishing to miss out on getting the launches in i pressed on to complete all the details and was pleased we did not have to suffer this mod back at Kenley.
When the 'Sedburgh's' first came out at Slingsbys they did not even have those little celluloid screens !!!

[chevvron]

Well most of the barges at 613 had them, (late 60s)but we retained the flyscreens so we could still operate open cockpit. You tended to use the sound of the air rushing past to judge speed rather than look at the ASI,(flying by ear?) and the canopies made the sound totally different, mucking up your speed control

[Farns744]

AC could carry all the staff cadets in one go which meant we could afford to fill it up with fuel for trips to London and the West CountryI well remember in using the MOD car park in London (try doing that now:E) and a trip down to Cornwall. Anyhow here are a couple of piccies taken January 1968.
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/kdf744/2011-12-25-17-25-24.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/kdf744/2011-12-25-17-45-00.jpg

Happy days P. I do have more if you wish to view include full SCUBA kit in the pond at Earlswood.:D

[POBJOY]

Well done Farns, just a reminder of some of Kenleys history.Ist shot inside that famous Belfast shed which has the same background as the Hurricanes in RFTS. 2nd image shows the still extent 'Portcullis Club' in the background. One of the original Kenley buildings and still very much the 'hub' of Kenleys heritage group and the local RAFA club. To complete the 'off thread' details the AC had an all aluminium body over a wooden frame,the bonnet used to frequently 'fly off' at high speed,and the boot would also fly open under heavy cornering scattering tools and oil cans everywhere.Do you have an image after painting !!.
The previous owner claimed he had backed into a tree near Croydon and 'knocked it over'.However it could carry ALL the staff cadets in one go thereby providing the required cash/fuel input for many forays after a days ops. No need to bore them with the 'Rubber suit' bit.

PS Sums up what being a Staff Cadet was all about.Lots of hard work,trips to the NAFFI, Never enough flying, but a MEGA AMOUNT OF FUN which served us all well.(not to mention the beat ups and aero's)

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Just to let you know about FOGIES (Frelon Page 33). This stands for Former Old Gliding Instructors Extension Society and is open to all (subject to committee acceptance). Members consist of former ATC Gliding Instructors, Officers, Civilian Instructors,Categorised Staff Cadets and those closely associated with Air Cadet Gliding. All the ages of ATC gliding are covered, Wooden, Venture, Vigilant, Viking etc., encapsulating 70 years of Gliding with the Air Training Corps. Therefore making the society an excellent choice for those who have volunteered over the years. Thus encouraging the youth of this country to accept responsibility for their actions by taking command of Her Majesties Aircraft. Not only in this the Queens Diamond Jubilee year but also, we celebrate70 years of ATC Gliding FOGIES of course is at the forefront of these celebrations.

Fogies have a contact email for all those interested as follows [email protected].

[Farns744]

Come on Farns where is the picture !!!Here it is.
PC with the AC outside the hangar doors in 1968.
Sorry it is in B&W.
Now what did it say on the outside of the roller blind of the rear window....
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/kdf744/2012-02-10-13-46-01.jpg

[POBJOY]

Oh MY Gawd exposed at last !!.
Note the casual dress, entirely due to the problem of not being able to extract the correct attire from the Equip-Officer.
In fact the 'Jacket Cold Weather' was only obtained by going to the stores with 'half' an old jacket that had been severly burnt by a ships funnel on a fishing trip. The other half was exchanged later when visiting another station. The glasses were 'overseas issue' and came in a blue metal case with cleaning fluid and cloth. The bobble hat was red and white and knitted by my Aunt. (After an 'interview' by the CFI as to my attire, some 'flying kit' came my way including a pair of Mk 8 Goggles with two sets of lenses!!). These were lent years later to Neil Williams to fly a Sopwith Pup at an airshow before he was lost in the Casa (Heinkel) crash in Spain.
Note the excellent job the Cadets made of painting the AC (by hand) and the very tasteful 'sign writing' that really upset the CFI at the time.
As for the 'rear window sun blind' i seem to recall it had a brief message painted on it to advise following cars to B...... Off or to dip their lights,which must have been a surprise to them when it was wound up.
On one notable trip from Kenley (midnight) to Cornwall (to visit our old CO) we stopped at an all night cafe in Exeter and all trooped in to be regaled with a 'Hello Boys','where are you all going'. In a flash i intoduced the late Jim Kosa (SC) and said he was going to a Pasty Crushing Competition in Falmouth and needed to practice on some stale ones if there were any.OOh she said and disappeared to find some !!!
The sequel to this trip was a grilling by our new CO and the CFI the next w/end as to why there were no staff to run things,and how we had been 'missed'. There had been a bit of friction in that an 'intake' of CI's and Squadron VRT 'trainee's' seemed to get a lot of launches over the SC, so this rather made our case as to who was actually doing the work !!

[althalus401]

Stan the man, probably the biggest influence on my gliding. I brough him back from Aboyne after the accident, Alfie Warminger paid for the hire of a Wilhire van.

I picked up a hitchiker on the way back and after a few miles down the A1 he looked in the back and saw the coffin. I had to stop and let him out as he went very strange.

[GliFly]

Here is another from the Peter Kirk Collection.
This time it's Stan with an Austin 1-Ton at 616 Henlow in 1961, or thereabouts.

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa449/Cooper0001/StanandAustin.jpg

[WE992]

For those who have memories of Mk3 XE790 ex 614 GS it was W/O in a fatal accident in the Netherlands on 5 May. Sad end to such a fine glider.

[Frelon]

There is a fantastic video of XE790 dune running in Holland in the hands of intrepid Dutch pilots on Vimeo.

XE790 as we never knew her!

Enjoy, but thoughts with the family and friends of the deceased.

[India Four Two]

Frelon,

What a fantastic video. I particularly like the "high-speed pass and zoom-climb" :)

[JOE-FBS]

Ploughed through this thread over the last couple of weeks, great fun.

I got my first taste of piloting with the GSA and ATC at Lindholme in 1980-2 (finally soloing with the ATC after the move to Scampton in April 82). There seems very little about Lindholme here (except for a few mentions by 7of9, odd choice of name for what I take to be a middle aged chap, the mental picture I have for 7of9 is very different, non Trekkies look here: Seven of Nine - TrekCore Star Trek Theme Galleries (http://trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=10) )

Anyway, I'll dig out my logbook and post some names and maybe even some pictures, I think there are some at home somewhere.

[Roland G]

What a wonderful thread of memories. Happy, carefree days of mid to late teens. Sitting in the Austin 1 ton truck in the hanger at RAF Ouston at 12-45pm one Saturday waiting for our instrucors to return from their lunch at the officers mess listening to "Round Britain Quiz" on the radio and feeling so happy to be there in that moment in time with all the anticipation of being taught how to fly later.

The gliding school was on an active RAF station [care and mintenance
basis in 1971] wih all the supporting infrastructre that the good old RAF could provide for us. A nice billet, clean bedding, meals at the airmans mess, nice yellow land rovers etc.

Alan, your post said you were writing a history - happy to help if I can - I logged up over 1,000 flights on my way to becoming a C - cat instructor with 641 GS.

There are several mentions in the thread of RAF Syerston and the Royal Barge. I belive I had the same instructor as Prince Andrew ie FLT/LT Peter Bullivant - a fine gentleman and pilot.

Sad when we were chopped after moving to RAF Dishforth. Cadets came from Tyneside but had to travel past the gliding school at Catterick airfield to reach us at Dishforth. A practical solution should have been found for the benefit of young air cadets.


cheers

Roland

[WE992]

Does anybody hyave any recollections or photos of the RAF Cranwell Glider Flight - Particularly the T.8 Cadet Mk2's?

[John Farley]

WE992

What sort of time frame? Did you fly with it?

[WE992]

John

I have not flown with it but I do own Cadet Mk2 XE761 which once served with it. I also owned XE760 for a while. The reason for my post is I am currently refurbishing XE761 and want to return it to authentic colours with the aim of putting it under the umbrella of 621 VGS Historic Flt at Hullavington in 2013.

[BOAC]

Stumbled on the thread - fantastic memories, like D120A from Hawkinge (summer 1961). Names in the thread resurface in my aging mind, like Naylor, Whittenbury, Ladley and ?King?. Pleased to say I actually recognise those faces in the group pic on this thread, so all is not lost. Must dig out my gliding logbook if it has not been 'lost'.

Long overdue and sincere thanks to all there who started me on my career path and bravely released me on my own in a heavier-than-air machine.

[l.garey]

I had 2 flights with F/O Whittenbury on 2 October 1958 at Hawkinge in Cadet Mk 3 XA282. They were checks for my first solo the same day, same glider. I got 11 flights that day (3 solo), and 9 the previous day. Lovely memories!

[John Farley]

WE992

Sorry I can't help then as my time was back in 1961 and I only have one poor T21 pic from then. Good luck with your project though.

[Tiger_mate]

I have flown XA282 solo. It now lives in the Carnarvon Air Museum. I was born in 1959!

[Arclite01]

Anyone know the name of the Dutch pilot(s) killed in the crash of XE790 ??

I sold it to them........................ sad stuff, first I heard of it

A PM would do if we don't want to publish names here.

Thanks

Arc

[Alan645]

Hi Roland
641 history nearly complete with just a few gaps to fill, any help you can offer would be well recieved. Drop me an e-mail [email protected] and I can let you know what info is required.

Alan C.

[brokenlink]

Cracking thread and a great that everyone is sharing. Two memories I have, the first a young cadet from Biggin Hill Sqn down at West Malling (615? still have the mug somewhere) one Boxing Day in 1970-something being clearly able to hear the conversations of those on the ground from 1000ft in a Sedburgh, think Flt Lt Ted Bates was the pilot.
The second was the feeling of complete exhilaration as I rolled to a halt having completed my solo in a Venture at Syreston in the summer of '79. Only managed that small feat due to the patience of Flt Lt Mike Throssell, thank you sirs.

[Arclite01]

BrokenLink

It'll have been 618 VGS at West Malling (615 at Kenley)

Flt Lt Ted Bates was OC 2427 Sqn at Biggin Hill in your time and a supernumerary instructor at 618 - I expect that's how you got your trip as really 618 was tasked with flying London Wing rather than Kent Wing cadets so all those days were 'favour trips' and 'extras' ;).

I believe Ed Bates was later a Sqn Ldr on Wing staff. I seem to remember he lived Maidstone way.......

I had a few trips around then as well - I'm ex-2427 so might even know each other from the dim and distant past..............joined in 1978 left in 1985.........

I seem to remember Mike Throssell from ACCGS at Syerston as well.............

TTFN

Arc

[Aileron Drag]

Arclite01 mentioned Mike Throssell from ACCGS.

Since this is Pprune, I can be fairly confident that said ACCGS examiner will not be reading these pages. He, and one other I met, had an aversion to (civilian) professional pilots! My CO had to put the bloke back in his cage!

I think the problem was the pay differential between the Civil Service (which he was), and the airline business. Never mind that we CGIs were giving up our weekends to instruct, and asking for weekends off totally f***** up your whole roster.

Everyone else at ACCGS were brilliant instructors and great guys to be with. They taught me a lot, especially Peter Bullivant, who did my 'C' Cat course. What a great bloke. Still sad he's gone.

[Arclite01]

Particularly like Bruce Tapson (who sent me solo) and John Wynch who did my C Cat................

Arc

[Aileron Drag]

Yes, Bruce was a good guy. My favourite ACCGS instructor was Brian Lamb. He did my A2 in 1987. Wonder what became of him? His standard of flying and instructional technique left me in despair that I could ever aspire to that level of ability. And, of course, I never did! :sad:

It's incredible just how variable the standard of ACCGS and CFS instructors was. There were times when I almost looked forward to a re-cat at Halton. Then there were times when I was seriously tempted to go sick! Our hearts would be in our mouths the week before, when the Boss told us who'd be 'doing us' next weekend! They seemed to have very little in the way of 'standardisation'.

[brokenlink]

Arc, if you PM me maybe we can swap 2427 stories. Get to Norfolk quite as bit as have family in the area

[POBJOY]

I had the pleasure of doing my A&B at Swanton with Geoff Naylor,and then the two 'checks' with Soapy King.
On the friday it transpired i was 'down' a launch,but had already done my solo's.
Douggie pointed to a MK3 and stated i needed an extra launch 'for the book'.
'You do the launch and then i will take over'. So be it, we duly launched,released,and then 'i have control' from the back.
We probably did not quite roll to the inverted,but we certainly imitated a fair Typhoon peel off and dive which ended with another suitable pull up rolling dive to a low level run pull up and break to land alongside the large hangar.
This was duly recorded in my 3822 as a 'beat up' and whenever i was admonished in future years (frequently) i merely pleaded that 'Douggie had checked me out on them' !!!! so it must be ok.
Silver machines,wellies, great meals,a Train to East Dereham Station,and all before you could have a driving licence.

[Arclite01]

Pobjoy -No trains from East Dereham nowadays (except a tourist line with Santa Specials) Our nearest station of note is Norwich !

I flew over Swanton Morley last week - it's still easily recognisable !

Great site, great days................

Arc

[Corsairoz]

I can remember being in the front of a Cadet just prior to my first solo.

This would be West Malling, summer of 1970.

The instructor in the back clipping me hard on the ear in realisation that, when he said' 'choose your landing spot', I had chosen a truck....... he still let me solo later in the day though.

That very glider I first soloed in, XN246, amazingly, is now displayed at Solentsky in Southampton where I volunteer as a guide a couple of weekends a month.


Happy days.

Edit: Why when I try to put in L a n d R o v e r , does it change to Trabant?

[Wander00]

Pobjoy - did my A&B at SM in Oct 62, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and did A&B in a day as I already had my PPL courtesy of a Flying Scholarship. Was told then that the rest of the week I would be pushing and pulling for the other studes - but did get hangar flight(s) each night. I am now back gliding after more than 50 years!

[POBJOY]

Arc & Wand;
I opted for the week course at Swanton as i had seen how long it could take at a w-end school.
In fact i was 'helping' at Kenley on an ad-hoc basis at the time,and they were most put out i did not do the A&B with them.
At the time officially helping out as a staff cadet was only an option if you had trained with the school so i was 'persona non 615' it would seem.
Nothing ventured nothing gained,so i just turned up and 'helped myself' back into staying on.Within a few weeks there was a sudden departure of several encumbent S/Cdts due to them getting jobs away or having to become 'civilians' due to their age. This left me as the sole Cdt involved,so common sense prevailed and i was nearly forgiven (although often reminded).
The situation was also helped by being in 450 ATC sdn that had its HQ on the airfield.At every opportunity i would 'wander' into the MT section and get some time in on how the MB Wilde Winch worked,which was followed up by doing the same with the LR and Austin.The master stroke was getting 450 to book me onto a Glider Inspection course back at NO 1 GC Swanton.The following w-end i had all the aircraft out DI,d,and signed out before the instructors arrived. !!!
I look back on those times now with great affection; and gratitude that we were allowed so much freedom.

[Arclite01]

Pobjoy

Strangely enough I had the same. I was trained at CGS, asked to do Advanced at West Malling and greeting with the 'Not One of Ours' attitude.

Never really 'broke in' to the inner circle as such. Knew quite a few of your contemporaries at 615 as well though, through connections at Surrey Hills.

Still think Air Cadet Gliding was one of the best things I ever did with my life.

Arc

[longer ron]

Hey Arc...long time no see...:)

[POBJOY]

I never wanted to break into any circle,just get airborne.
It was such a privilege to be at Kenley nothing else mattered.
I certainly had no long term plan to be an instructor,it just sort of happened,but when i decided to buy a Turbulent this was not the sort of thing that an ex staff cadet was supposed to do,and of course once i had discovered the Tiger Club this was 'frowned upon'.
Anyway Kenley always will be an important part of my life,and the ATC was a great experience.

[Arclite01]

Nor me Pobjoy, just to be accepted :-)

I think that Air Cadet gliding pre-glass was a special time. Whilst doing my B Cat at CGS one of my examiners actually said he thought we'd seen the best of Air Cadet gliding in a lot of ways.............

I look back on it with great fondness though. And I still use the skills they taught me every time I fly...................

Arc

[Arclite01]

and Hi LR..............

will send you a PM.

cheers

Arc

[POBJOY]

Arc. The Advanced course for Cadets consisted of going to Halesland and getting checked out on the Prefect.
One also hoped this would include a ridge soaring 'C' cert.
On the 'low cloud' days we flew out of Weston in the MK3 and T21.
I remember that we had to take a specific route back to Locking to avoid a steep hill,but the scenery in area 'Burrington' was impressive,as was flying over the Cheddar Gorge.
Locking was a 'sparks' camp (airfield Weston) but had a Spitfire on a pole near the gate.This was a'clipped wing' version and after a ground part in the BoB film now flies with the BBMF (with wing tips).
At the time the centre's used to run instuctors courses that utilised RAF GSA machines for 'soaring', but the GSA bit stopped before i went on one.
Locking is now a housing estate,Weston is closed,but Halesland lives on as a club.

[chevvron]

Staff Cadets at 613 (Halton) rarely seemed to get allocated 'Advanced' courses, although one or two (eg Honey Monster) did go to Halesland. Often though you just got awarded the certificate. I got mine at the same time I got the Soaring certificate (gained in VX275 on a detachment to Bovingdon) probably because they thought it would look better if I had both. We had a Prefect at Halton for prolonged periods in the mid '60s so P1s and above got checked out on them anyway; it was the Swallows the were the 'plum' checkouts; they seemed to be 'hogged' by 'B' Cats and higher and mere P1/P2/'C' Cats never got a look in.

[POBJOY]

Chev; you are quite correct regarding the Swallow.
The 'schools' only got them for a couple of w-ends a year so no chance as you say for lesser mortals.
However; rules can be 'bent' and whilst i was staff cadeting at Swanton during my annual leave from the GPO, Ian Ladley pointed to XS 650 and said (go fly) but no aero's or spinning.
A couple of w-ends later Kenley had one delivered by the working party and this was promptly added to the line on Sat morn. We were never 'over-staffed' with instructors on a Sat so the Swallow just sat there,and i suggested to the i/c line that perhaps i could fly it.
No chance old boy, 'B Cat's only',oh dear i said what if i can get a check out at the centre.He smiled, no problem if you you are checked out, and was then somewhat surprised with being promptly presented with a log book entry signed by the CFI of No 1 GC.
Several flights then followed which took my 'Swallowing' well in excess of
the 'B cats' who were not amused, after my T53 trips they gave up this unequal battle,but i suffered a minor 'grounding' after some tomato drops on the winches.

[Frelon]

I was probably one of those B Cats that had worked hard to get the category!

Having done my A & B at No 1 Gliding Centre at RAF Hawkinge (and only flown on two days in the week that I was there) I wrote to Flt Lt Mike Finnimore the CO, and expressed my interest in becoming a gliding instructor. He sent me a long letter back and advised that I could do it by becoming a member of a civilian club and working my way up – at a cost, or apply to a weekend gliding school to become a staff cadet to assist the then instructors to train the Air Cadets passing through the schools. Lots of hard work, but free!

So I wrote to the CO at Kenley, Fg Off George Nunn (great character), and advised him that I had been recommended for an Advanced Gliding Course and a Flying Scholarship and that I would like to be a Staff Cadet. Some weeks later I went for an interview and two weeks after that I was there, entering the hallowed gates of RAF Kenley. I was very nervous and apprehensive – the new boy! It took a couple of weeks for the instructors to realise that I was a staff cadet, as they had the list of cadets to be trained and worked through that list. At the end of the day (or weekend) they may have given us a hangar flight, or not, depending on whether we had been noticed.

One of the C Cats took me under his wing and taught me to drive the Wilde single drum winch (we had 3) and the 1 ton Austin truck, with crash gearbox, (the Land Rovers had just arrived and were a novelty so staff cadets would not drive them for a couple of weeks!). Having learnt to drive the Austin and the winch I realised I was a real staff cadet so spent every weekend driving winches and doing the cable run with the Austin. The novelty of retrieving gliders with the new Land Rovers soon wore off for the categorised instructors, so eventually we were allowed to glider retrieve as well!

When I went to Kenley at weekends I told my parents that I was going gliding, again. I caught a train from Clapham Junction (in uniform with all my kit) and one day when buying my ticket to Kenley I was asked if I wanted a Forces Leave ticket…….wow, that sounded good. If it saved money I wanted a slice of that. So every week after that I went to Kenley with a Forces Leave ticket, I must have looked much older than 16!! On arrival home after the weekend my father asked me what I had done whilst away. I told him that I had been on cable retrieve duties and driven the 1 tonner (double declutching!) all day and the next day had been on the winch! He said that he thought that I had gone gliding and asked how much gliding I did. I told him that I had one flight and that was a hangar flight! He was appalled until I explained that gliding was about much more than the actual flying!

Kenley in the 60’s played a great part in my life and I remember the place and the people with great fondness.

NOTE: This PPRUNE stuff is really bizarre. When I type in the name of a well known 4 wheel drive military vehicle with the initials L-R I get naked ladies posing with air powered machinery inserted!!. Thought I was going bonkers!! Well done PPRUNE a whole new way of seeing things!

[longer ron]

All this Kenley talk reminded me of this pic
Kenley July 92
Thanks for the 2 Barge rides Arc :ok:


http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv316/volvosmoker/img003.jpg

[JEM60]

I was lucky enough, as a Staff Cadet on 613 at Halton, to be checked out on the Prefect, and went to Halesland on an advanced course, though never got my soaring cert. as the weather wasn't suitable for most of the time. [only 1 cadet achieved it]
S/Ldr Topsfield undershot the field in a T.21, and so, together with him and his cadet pilot, I spent the night with them in a 3 tonner, guarding the aircraft. We had a camping stove, and a tilley lamp, so were able to cook a fry-up. Unfortunately, and unbeknown to us, the tilley lamp was leaking parafiin[?] directly into the frying pan, consequently all of us were violently sick by the morning. Happy times though!.

[chevvron]

The day I got checked out in the Prefect, ('Toppy' Topsfield briefed myself and another Staff Cadet, Nick Nicholls, together and we then took it in turns to fly it for the rest of the day!) my father picked me up in his car to give me a lift home.
He asked what I had done that day; I replied 'I flew the single seater for the first time'. He asked 'what, on your own?'!!

[POBJOY]

Frelon; I seen to recall you turning up on a motorbike (as did many of your number) suitably wrapped up in sidcot suits, mufflers, and the goggles that we winch drivers 'should' have had.
It was a definate 'upgrade' when you got the Anglia with cinturato tyres !!!!, those of us on Michelin X's used to 'skate' all over the road in the wet,but they lasted for ages.
Did BC (the CFI) ever get 'counselling' after seeing his brand new 1500 Beetle spinning down the main runway in the snow.
You must have been on those courses at the centre with the RAFGSA machines, i believe there are some stories lurking from that time,come on spill the beans before i make one up.

[Frelon]

As a staff cadet one quickly realised that there was no (official) issue of flying clothing. We pestered the Equipment Officer for anything to protect our uniforms but he informed us that flying clothing was only issued to Categorised Instructors - C Cat and above. The only things he did manage to supply us with was a new pair of denims and a new (right size) pair of Wellington boots, and that was it!

We did a search of the Government Surplus stores and managed to buy some rubber buttoned flying suits from the '50s. At least that set us apart from the course cadets, and we looked the part, we thought!

After a while the Eqpt Officer softened and took pity on us as he realised we were a good asset to the gliding school and in it for the long run. When categorised instructors left and if he managed to get their flying clothing back they would eventually be "issued" to us. It did not matter to us that they were second hand, we just felt we had made the grade and looked like the other instructors, albeit a bit shabbier!

We spent many a night in the barrack room at Kenley trying to return these second hand boots into pristine condition - see picture!!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/RAF%20Kenley/resized_BullingtheFlyingBootsKenley_zpsb571bf4f.jpg

Bit sad really to spend time on the boots when we could have been in the NAAFI, or even on our motor bikes down to Brighton!

[Arclite01]

Wow - thanks LR

I feel really old now - but I remember the trips in the Barge that day - you were going to fly my T31 but it wasn't insured I seem to recall.........

I only threw that shirt away a few years ago - and I'm still wearing the desert wellies.........

Merry Xmas BTW.............

Arc

[POBJOY]

Ah i see where all the boots went (to those with motorbikes) DJN & DB included.AS for working 'HARD' i see that you could afford bus and train fares unlike those of us who hitch-hiked and walked to Kenley. On one notable occaision an elderly Ford pop stopped at the level crossing and i hopped in.
It turned out to be one BK (of Paynes Poppet fame) when he stopped outside 450 HQ (both occupants chocking) the fumes inside the wreck had transformed it into an IFR simulator (with real smoke).
Several years later the CO expelled it from the hangar and we were charged to take it to the dump. It got 'fired' soon after and then the bulldozer finished it off. It is now down with the Siskins and Bulldogs about 20 feet down.
In practice those boots were not really suited to our machines and i preferred what were known as plimsolls,and found out that one could get a lightweight F Suit from the Station stores if you bothered to ask,and had something to swap.
Getting something to 'exchange' was a challenge but i found some torn and paint covered 'suit-bits' on the dump (old MT section rags) made an arm and leg bit look presentable and popped it into a suitable poly bag.
The man behind the counter smiled,and just threw it onto a pile behind him and 'hey presto' i had a FS.He also threw in a set of issue sunglasses and sent me away. As you said Frelon the Gliding was only part of the adventure.
Looking at those boots you will notice that they are genuine 'Evading' ones designed so that the wide bits could be removed (if shot down) thereby making the wearers less noticeable. The only evading those did were to the 'Roundabout cafe' in Caterham.

[Dan Winterland]

Found these on a website. All taken at Turnhouse (I think).

New Stuff - as December 2012 (http://www.clourie.co.uk/aircraft/page58/files/page58-1362-full.html)

New Stuff - as December 2012 (http://www.clourie.co.uk/aircraft/page58/files/page58-1395-full.html)

New Stuff - as December 2012 (http://www.clourie.co.uk/aircraft/page58/files/page58-1470-full.html)

New Stuff - as December 2012 (http://www.clourie.co.uk/aircraft/page58/files/page58-1471-full.html)

[astir 8]

I like the "only slightly damaged" claim in the above newspaper article. I suspect that even the reporter has his doubts - well who needs a fin & rudder and half a wing? It'll polish out:ok:

[WE992]

XA297 was rebuilt and served with Bannerdown GC RAFGSA before becoming BGA1198. Later converted to Motor Tutor G-BCYH.

[starkys2005]

Hi I too remember Peter Vine from 273 sqdn. The guy who deliberately stalled was called (Steve?) Fixter. A lovely guy but what a nutter. When I went solo in 1972 or 1973 I was less than 7 stones (minimum weight) Bill Tyson went to the steel factory nearby and got two sandbags full of steel shot and strapped them in to the passenger seat in order to bring me above the minimum weight. No mention of health and safety in those days. When it was time to land after my circuit I couldnt bring the sedburgh down so I had to use full spoilers and still managed to overshoot the landing field. I`ll never forget the looks on those sheeps eyes as I ploughed through them. Happy days.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Regrettably Brian Lamb died of Cancer Middle of this year (2012). Brian was a gentleman and well respected by his piers and colleagues. Brian was an excellent painter and did a painting of the Tucano with Ghost outlines of the Air Cadet fleet in the clouds behind. The original painting hangs in the Officers mess at RAF Linton on Ouse. I would copy a picture of it on this website but do not know how to do it.

[Aileron Drag]

So sorry to hear about Brian. What a great instructor, and nice bloke.

On the same sad subject, some of you may remember the Boss of 613 at RAF Halton in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, Sqn. Ldr. Malcolm Marshall, who died in the late summer of 2012.

Malcolm was, literally, larger than life. I have happy memories of taking off on a 'weather check' at 8am with Malcolm. I wondered how we would clear the trees, with a rate-of-climb of a couple of hundred fpm! At 5,000' in January, freezing to death in the Venture, Malcolm would talk over the intercom about the view, the experience of being removed from Earth, the wonder and privilege of being there. The guy was a poet.

A disciplinarian, but a great friend. It's his love of flight that remains with me.

[chevvron]

Sad to hear Malcolm has gone. Another great character lost, he'd started at White Waltham originally where he was an Air Traffic Controller - Waltham was RAF and had civilians in its ATC unit - and was instrumental in the formation of 612 VGS there, initially as HQAC Glider Flight (Waltham was HQAC until the RAF moved out in about '72), then as a D/F of 613, then it became a VGS in its own right.

[India Four Two]

Brian Lamb's Tucano painting, referred to above by Burtonwood Aviator:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/null.jpg

[India Four Two]

In case anyone missed it, there is a link to a home movie of Slingsby gliders in Aden here:

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/505635-aden-historical-videos.html

[bridon]

I wonder if I can tap into someone's memory here. I had my first glider flights when I was a 14 year old ATC cadet with 2322 (Dowty) squadron in early 1964 this was at South Cerney and the gliders were the T21 Sedburgh and the T31 Tandem Tutor.
I cannot remember the serials of course but distinctly remember the bold black ATC CADETS lettering on the fuselage and I am convinced that the aircraft were Silver and Dayglo and according to research online as far as I can ascertain, we were most likely to have been flown by pilots from 625 VGS.

625 VGS Homepage (http://www.625vgs.org.uk/fleet.html)

On trawling through their website, I was delighted to find that both the colour schemes and the serials are presented for me but it states that the Silver and Dayglo replaced the Silver and Yellow in 1967.

Could this be a possible typo on the 625 website as It was definitely 1964 that I flew in both of the above gliders and am convinced that all the gliders we flew in were Silver/Dayglo. I don't suppose anyone might have any South Cerney photos or memories of the period to clarify this for me.

Secondly, the application of the Dayglo areas on ATC gliders do seem to have several variances in different parts of the country from photos I have seen. Sometimes Dayglo wing tips, others had Dayglo bars chordwise, some had Silver rudders whereas some had Dayglo etc etc. So is there a definitive reference anywhere on the colour schemes used by the RAF for the ATC?

It would be nice to build a couple of small scale models of each of these and to get the correct markings would be great so any information would be most gratefully received.

Many thanks

BrianG (Dorset UK)

[chevvron]

Sad to report another one gone.
Reg Ford, late of 613 VGS Halton and contributor to these pages as 'Honey Monster', died of a heart attack on 31 Dec 2012. He had been ill for some time causing his premature retirement as an Instructor at the College of Air Traffic Services, Hurn.

[skylark267]

Hi there this is my first post on this site so please forgive me if i do not quite get things as they should be.

My first flight at South Cerny was in 1966 and i went solo in August 1968 and then served as a staff cadet and instuctor for many years.

All of my memories and old slides confirm that the gliders were indeed in silver and dayglow red, I am looking to put some photos on the site as soon as i can get them scanned.

I have followed this site for several months and it is great to see 625 get a mention.

Terry C.

[Flyingspanners]

HI guys, I just found this thread while googling for a register of all Slingsby T31's produced. I have enjoyed reading my way through all 44 pages of the thread and being taken back to my days as a cadet at 450 Sqdn at Kenley from 1963 until being thrown out when I reached 21 years of age (Cadet WO). I did my gliding course over many weekends in 1964, going solo one month after my 16th birthday. I was surprised (and delighted) to come across the photos posted by longer ron on 16th Dec 11 on page 40 from 'The Gliding Book' The cadet 'being briefed before going solo' by Alex Watson is me! I had actuall done all three solo flights some time before this. I remembered someone shouting 'ere, take his hat orf' but Mr Watson wanted it left on, so on it stayed. I still have my very beaten up 3822 and it reveals that I had training flights with Mr Brown, Mr Tinkler, Mr Munt and Mr Belles. I can't remember their first names now (not recorded in my log). I can only remember a couple of the Staff Cadets names now, David Taylor and P.C - (following the rules here by not using the name - initials only, pobjoy, this must be you - there is no hiding place!) we were all in 450 at the time and I remember doing slides and 360's in a certain black VW up the runway in the snow. I lived in Whytleafe in the 1950's/1960's and as our house was right under the flight path to the main runway I was brought up on the sounds of Ansons, Chipmunks and the occasional Harvard. I remember the Lincon going in to Kenley plus a Meteor which ended up on its nose in the middle of the 'field if I remember right. I have a propellor that I rescued from the airfield dump - from a Chipmunk, stamped For Use on Gipsy Mark Mk10. Happy times back then which led me on to a career in the Airlines as a Licensed Engineer and sometimes flying spanner. Retired now, I hope to go back to Gliding, had an afternoons flying with Surrey Hills GC last year which rekindled the interest. Great thread, great recollections and photos, incidently.....how much would a 'civvy' T31 cost now?
Mike .G

[bridon]

All of my memories and old slides confirm that the gliders were indeed in silver and dayglow red, I am looking to put some photos on the site as soon as i can get them scanned.


Hi Terry....to see any colour slides will be wonderful....will look forward to seeing those. It's also a relief to read confirmation that my memory regarding the colour scheme was not letting me down. :ok:

Regards

BrianG (Dorset UK)

[POBJOY]

PM me F-Spanner for some interesting info
PC Pobjoy.

[POBJOY]

Ho FS i think the 'Meteor' may have actually been a Vatour Bomber taking part in in the Arc to Arch race circa 1959.
This mistook Kenley for BH and trundled through the fence onto the common (flew out after minor repairs)
The Beetle eventually performed a slow roll at the end of the main runway (no snow on that day) and had a flat roof from then on and much head scratching from the MOT testers. (one entered via window opening as door jammed).
Glad you maintained the 'scrounging' from the dump,and became an LAE.
450 is now the KENLEY Squadron (was Caterham & Warlingham) in our days. My last CO Eric only passed away a couple of years ago;great guy and gave me his wartime flying helmet which went with me to the TC at Redhill. There are a couple of T31's at Eaglescott (hanging from the roof),and i have a tug aircraft further west.

[astir 8]

Cost of "civvy" T31 - very much depends on condition, anything from zero to probably a couple of grand. The trailer to keep it in would cost more than the glider.

Having said that, there are some beautiful T31's around, which have been restored regardless of effort and final worth and which are unlikely to appear on the market.

T21's (Sedberghs) have gone through the "can't give them away" phase - the MoD sold them off for £500 - £750 in the 1980's (which was about what they paid for them new!). They are now very much appreciated in the vintage gliding movement and a half decent one can be sold for 5 to 7 thousand. A 21 will soar much better than a 31 and the side by side seating far more sociable. A good closed trailer for it would cost another 5 to 7 thousand though!

Again a few examples have been restored to "better than new" condition (mainly in Holland and Germany curiously enough)

[POBJOY]

One had a 'trip' in the 31 and a 'ride' in the 21.

In practice the 31 did all the hard work (in all weathers) and the 21 was reserved for 'nice days' with plenty of helpers,and only really earned its keep when AE flying was tasked.

The real worry was getting caught out on the field if a line squall came through,and not having enough bods to festoon on it (plus a couple in the cockpit holding the spoilers out).

You only had to see a 21 on its back once to make you sure the conditions were very 'secure' to drag it out in the future.

[Flyingspanners]

Hi Pobjoy, yes, looking in my 3822 I see that most flights in the T31 were in the order of 3 to 5 mins, leaving one on arriving back on terra firma in one piece thinking 'did I just go somewhere'! I seem to remember that 800ft off a launch at kenley was good. I'll pm you for a chat, my 'rise' from servicing Rallye Clubs at Air Touring (Biggin Hill) to 747's is too long,boreing and off thread. Sorry to hear that Eric Lawrence is no longer with us, I last saw him when I was at Air Touring Services in 1971, he turned up there one day to go flying.

Thanks Astir8 for the info on getting hold of a T31....not sure if I could afford the trailer at the moment!

[chevvron]

SOP at Halton for proficiency cadets was first 3 flights (local landmark famil, primary effects, further effects) on the Sedburgh then if the cadet wasn't too big, you converted to the Mk3 for the rest of the syllabus including your 3 solos. Larger cadets stayed on the barge. Average flight times were about 5 min for Sedburgh and 3-4 min for Mk3.

[astir 8]

An increasing percentage of the T21 fleet is being fitted with centre of gravity release hooks which make winch launching much more pleasant (one hand not two or four!) and launch heights about 50% better. Would you believe over 2000 feet has been achieved at Weston on the Green?

Spring trimmers also being steadily fitted and you'd be amazed what an improvement to the handling a strip of tape along the aileron hinge line makes.

They never told you that in the ATC!:ok:

See

T.21 Restoration - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=103048&highlight=T21)

for an ongoing and epic T21 restoration in Holland

[Arclite01]

Just reading Tim O'Brien's book on RAF Syerston

It's worth a read and plenty of nostalgia for people who have done courses at ACCGS...........

cheers

Arc

[CISTRS]

I was a member of 291 (Chelsea & Westminster) Squadron ATC based in Regency St, London SW1. CO was Flt Lt. McKenzie-Lowe, who was ex CO of Kenley Gliding School.
I achieved my A & B at RAF Hornchurch. (HCH)
My first air experience flight was a soaring flight of 25 minutes in a Sedburgh, thermalling over the Ford motor works at Dagenham. Subsequently, I was not impressed by 3 minute circuits in the Cadet Mk3!
I remember the ATC gliders dong left hand circuits, the RAFGSA doing right hand circuits, with a static balloon in the centre of the airfield for parachute training, all operating simultaneously. Solo cadets coped with this.

Unfortunately - no pics.

Controls
Instruments
Spoilers
Trim
Release
Straps

CISTRS

[POBJOY]

A sad reminder of 'what was'
Hornchurch Gone
Fords "
Mk111 "
T21 "

At least 291 lives on.

[Weeds round the prop]

I have many fond memories of sub-3 minute flights at Hemswell and Spitalgate.
At Hemswell the grass strip used was parallel to the tarmac runway, and had a field of standing cereal crop on the under-run. One instructor's favourite wheeze was to approach a bit hot and flare into the crop which made an awfully scary noise as it battered the nose, then burst out and pop the spoilers again to land. The ATC student usually climbed out with a fit of sneezing.
Even as a callow 14 year-old I remember being a bit worried that any old New Holland bailer abandoned by the farmer would 1) Not be visible, & 2) Be a bit solid
Picture is June 69 and what I remember as golden wavy wheat across the peri-track behind looks like grass. I have mislaid the rest of the pics.

I suspect that this glider was day-glo and silver dope, although I recall at the time that day-glo printed as plain red on photo paper.


http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r540/Bigbobcat/Hemswell01a_zps25431e8f.jpg

[Frelon]

This will revive some memories CISTRS!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/RAF%20Kenley/P1000129_zps90d3b3dc.jpg

When I was in Australia getting checked out in a Twin Astir I was asked by the checking pilot why I was thermalling in 4 up! They would not bother until it was at least 10 up!

My response was that I learnt to thermal in 2 down because that was better than 10 down!! :rolleyes:

[CISTRS]

This will revive some memories CISTRS!

Frelon,

Thanks. Certainly brings back the memories....

15 years after going solo at Hornchurch, and after getting a PPL at Sportair Flying Club (Biggin Hill) on a Fournier RF-5, I became one of Gerry Fuller's crew as a Civilian Instructor at 618 VGS West Malling. I was very pleased to see that the aircraft were unchanged.

We used to spot giant mushrooms on the airfield during the flights.

I agree - gliding in UK makes you very good at scratching in minimal lift.

[Frelon]

Yes, I flew for a while at Sportair. Great sports flying club, I enjoyed flying the RF4s, at £4.50 an hour, could not be beaten at the time. I think I was the only member of the club to actually switch the engine off to try thermalling them! I found out that they were not very good (unless you had a stonking thermal - rare in southern UK) and they needed lots of sky in which to dive the aircraft to get the prop turning fast enough to restart the engine!

I would have loved to fly their SFS Milan (RF4 with 15 metre wings) but it was not available to the club members.

Never mind, I could still fly the fretwork fighters at 615 Kenley free of charge :D

[stumpey]

My response was that I learnt to thermal in 2 down because that was better than 10 down!! :rolleyes:

Oh yes, I remember it well!
But thats one reason why gliding gives a better foundation to future pilots, just as bike riding does for drivers.

[POBJOY]

I notice the panel is not in an aircraft Frelon and it certainly did not come off the dump!!,perhaps out of a prang.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

How do you get a copy of this book.
Having flown from there on many occasions, the history of the station particuarily the Gliding would be most interesting.

[Arkwright]

As I'm in my mid-40's I'm obviously a young upstart compared to some of my contemporaries on here!

SISTRS must have been the forerunner to CB SIT CB which adorned every control panel of 618's aircraft in the early 80's when I did my BGT on a MkIII at West Malling.

From memory, and probably in the wrong order:

Controls
Ballast

Straps
Instruments
Trim

Canopy
Brakes

I later went on to be a staff cadet, CI and supernumerary officer at 618 and loved every minute of it. The camaraderie and firm friendships made there have endured to this day.

Arkwright

[Frelon]

When I started in 1959, it was CISTRS!

Controls, Instruments, Spoilers (although we did not have them 'till later), Trim, Release and Straps.

At some later stage there appeared to be a move towards becoming aligned with the BGA system - initially CBSITCB, Controls, Ballast, Straps, Instruments, Trim, Canopy and Brakes, then latterly CBSIFTCB, by adding Flaps.

Not too sure whether this occurred before the move to GRP, but suspect it did because the little Dymo Tape embossed aide memoirs on the instrument panels of the Mk111 and T21 disappeared over time.

Seems that CBSIFTCB has stood the test of time, now with E for Eventualities added.

No doubt the cadets of today have to read their cockpit checks from a published list! Perhaps one of the youngsters will be along soon to enlighten us :8

[Innominate]

The change to CBSITCB certainly pre-dated the GRP era - I used it on my course at Swanton Morley in 1973.

[longer ron]

If I had to guess - I would say CBSITCB came in approx 1970-71

[wub]

I was using CBSITCB in 1967.

[India Four Two]

CBCITCB 1963 at Lasham

[Arclite01]

@Arkwight - I think you'd have done the Gliding Proficiency in the 80's - the BGT came later in the 90's I think.......................

@Burtonwood Aviator - look up Tim O'Brien on the web or Tobbit publishing for the Syerston book...or you can buy it direct from Waterstones in Nottingham.

cheers all,

Arc

[longer ron]

Remember we are talking ATC gliding here guys...CBSITCB was used in civvy clubs years before the ATC started using it.
I did my original gliding course at 644 Spitalgate in 1969 and we definitely used CISTRS then...
I then had 2 years at 613 Halton in 1970-72 where we used CBSITCB - hence my guess as 70-71 for introduction as ATC checks.

rgds LR

[OC615VGS]

I'm a little younger! As you say they are now read from FRC's. They start with 3 Warnings. 1 wind direction 2 surface condition 3 wet/iced/insects on wings. Then it reverts to CBSIT as we all remember but to avoid overheat they switched the old last CB to BC. Then it ends with E for emergencies and one has to state your intention regarding LF's incl who is flying & who is commander. The instrument check is extensive on the first flight to incl all toys present but is reduced to mandatory Alt & ASI for subsequent flights. Hope that helps. Cheers KC

[Arclite01]

You are not much younger Keith !!

cheers

Arc

[Auster Fan]

Also sad to report that Sqn Ldr Ron Page, for many years OC 611 VGS at Swanton Morley has recently passed away. I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but by all accounts, once met never forgotten..

[OC615VGS]

Tim has also done a fantastic oil painting celebrating 70 years of Air Cadet Gliding it features an airfield (based on SY) scene with one of every type of glider the Cadets have used, I think the intention was to sell prints, although I havent seen any on general release.

However I pestered Tim and did manage to get him to do a short run of "artist proof" prints and I have an A1 sized numbered 1 of 5 hanging at home. (I know where 4 of the 5 went, so there may still be one available)

There are 12 types in the painting plus the chippy and the robin, with the exception of the T53 many of us will have flown most of them!

[Frelon]

When I was appointed as CFI at 615 Gliding School I found the attached photograph at the bottom of the desk that I inherited! I assume that it was taken by Alex Watson (ex CFI and OC at Kenley) as he was a journalist and photographer.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/CrashedGlider_zps45800068.jpg
It looks like it was a Cadet Mk II - Regn PD656. I can just about make out the wording on the fuselage as .....GLIDER.....WOOLWICH WING....
I am thinking that it was taken at Detling when Home Command Gliding Instructors' School (HCGIS) was operating.
All very sad really.....

[WE992]

I have it listed as a Cadet Mk1. An interesting photograph but looking at the condition of it I don't hold out much hope for the occupant. Lets hope it blew away. Either way very sad.

[chevvron]

Bit too close to the winch for it to be just blown away, more like a low cable break?

[POBJOY]

Single seater and Woolwich wing leads me to think this possibly could be Kidbrooke,and of course ATC (as it became) Gliding then consisted of :- Ground slides,low hops,high hops,and eventually turning;without the benefit of 'dual control' or even an experienced instructor (who could be driving the winch).
George Nunn who later was the CO at 615 (60's-70's) had an accident at Kidbrooke of the slow/spin/crash variety (he got away with a damaged back).
Of course there was no recovery for this actually taught at the time as most of the flights would not have been high enough to develop a spin 'and recover'.
As George recalled it to us in one of his (caravan tales)'I lost control and the machine fell out of the sky with me 'jiggling' the pole to no effect'.
Luckily for us at Kenley he survived to form 615 into a well run unit that was a testimony to his complete dedication to 'Getting the Cadets airborne' and giving encouragement to us young loons that he mentored and encouraged to 'get involved'.

[ShyTorque]

Also sad to report that Sqn Ldr Ron Page, for many years OC 611 VGS at Swanton Morley has recently passed away. I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but by all accounts, once met never forgotten..

RIP, Ron.

I flew my third ever trip with Ron Page, at Swanton Morley, in 1972 I think.
What he didn't know was that until that glider flight, I hadn't handled the controls at all because the other two flights were airtests late the previous day. I was allowed to go along because I hadn't been able to get in any instructional trips due to lack of airframes, so I was there for ballast purposes only.

Ron never asked what I'd already been taught, and as a fifteen year old I never thought to tell him "Nothing, yet, Sir!" because I thought he would already have known.

Well, he made me land it, much to my horror! He "talked" me down final approach, i.e. shouting from the rear seat. As it had no intercom, I couldn't tell him I really hadn't got a clue what I was doing. I landed it well enough but the right wing began to drop as we slowed and he told me to pick it up with rudder. I had two pedals to choose from and chose the wrong one. We ground looped. He bollocked me intensely. :mad:

He apologised (ish) when I told him I hadn't even touched the controls in flight before. :ok:

[chevvron]

Reminds me of a cadet at 613. An instructor called out the name of a particular cadet on proficiency training, and when a cadet appeared at the door of the caravan, he assumed it was the one he wanted, so the cadet was duly strapped into the front seat of a Mk3. Several launches later, the instructor sussed something was amiss and asked the cadet how much experience he had. This was how the instructor discovered his pupil had not flown before and was with the AEG party and not for Proficiency training!!

[POBJOY]

I recall that 'progress cards' were introduced in the late 60's that were 'signed off' by the pevious instructor as to what stage the cadet had reached.
This did not mean that the Cadet was proficient in a particular excercise,but at least recorded that he was on a course!.
At the time it was 'suggested' that course Cadets could have several instructors over the duration of the training and that the 'records' would assist progress overview.
In fact what it highlighted was that a constant change of instructor would usually show itself in a protracted training time; a no-brainer really.
Even the Centre's could have issues with records as i found out by having to do an another couple of launches 'after going solo' in order to satisfy whatever the official min requirement was. (This was not an unique event) i later found out.

[CH2]

Saltby (Buckminster GC) are holding a vintage Rally that should see some ex ATC types appear; see https://www.facebook.com/BuckminsterGC

Venture ZA634 has it's own facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/VentureZa634

and so does this T21:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/WB924-at-Dunstable/106513216109169?fref=ts

[Dan Winterland]

Pre T21/31 days.

A.T.C. GLIDERS aka ATC GLIDERS issue title is HI-DE-HI - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/a-t-c-gliders-aka-atc-gliders-issue-title-is-hi-de/query/royal+air+force)

[CISTRS]

How well I remember the old style, scratchy "dog-collar" ATC Uniform.

[JEM60]

CISTRS. You and me also!. Many a sore neck!!!:{

[l.garey]

Like this! I am top left! Briefing for Shawbury camp 1956.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc39/apollo-fox/1956115001small_zps4d3fecbc.jpg (http://s215.photobucket.com/user/apollo-fox/media/1956115001small_zps4d3fecbc.jpg.html)

[India Four Two]

Pre T21/31 days.

What's the strange-looking two-seater in the Pathe link in Dan's post?

[CharlieOneSix]

Maybe the Slingsby Falcon 3?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/Mearns/Falcon3_zpsde4db144.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Mearns/media/Falcon3_zpsde4db144.jpg.html)

[India Four Two]

Thanks C16,

That's the one. What an odd design with those swept-back wings.

Edited to add, that you can see a glimmer of the future T-21 in the design.

[Airclues]

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc193/Airclues/P1000699_zps0540504b.jpg

This fascinating thread inspired me to search my loft for my 3822, which brought back memories of my ATC gliding course.
I spent four days at Kirton in Lindsey although we didn't fly on one of the days due to heavy rain. The weather throughout the course was miserable but the flying was fun.
I remember sitting on the train on my way home clutching my certificate feeling very happy. However, nearly fifty years later, and a bit more experience, I wonder whether I should have been up there on my own after 57 minutes instruction. I suppose that "Ignorance is Bliss".

[Arkwright]

Its not the flight time so much as the launches needed to complete the syllabus. As long as the syllabus had been taught and you'd shown enough aptitude to pass the solo check then all is well!

I'm still amazed how quickly students learn, particularly if there is continuity in their training. I did my Proficiency over four weekends and from memory went solo in just over 1 hour airborne, but continuous course students were frequently going solo after less than 40 minutes and in 1-2 days!

[India Four Two]

57 minutes instruction

Yes, but 24 launches, so slightly over two minutes per circuit on average! The Mk. III certainly was a "lead sled".

The T21b that I soloed in, was a floater by comparison - about three minutes per circuit!

[astir 8]

Not sure that other than the name Slingsby, aileron shape and general construction method that the Falcon III had any onwards linkage to the T21,

As far as I understand, the Falcon III was an enlarged Falcon 1 which was in turn the Falke designed by Alexander Lippisch.

The T21 was an enlarged Grunau Baby designed by a Mr Schneider - in fact there is a German joke that Slingsby meant to build a Grunau Baby but used inches instead of centimetres and it came out a bit big!


We took our Sedbergh to Fairford a few years back - a lot of ex ATC guys showed up telling tales of going solo after seventeen four minute circuits etc!! Elfin safety??

[CharlieOneSix]

I must have been a slow learner - dusted off my old logbook to reveal 82 minutes and 25 launches to solo on T31's over one month in Feb/March 1962 with 622 at Christchurch. That included 8 minutes thermalling on one flight over the old de Havilland factory - yes, thermalling in a T31! First solo in XN246 which is now in the Solent Sky Museum. Loved it so much I carried on as a Staff Cadet before getting Auntie Betty to start paying for my flying the following year.

Instructors recorded in my logbook were Cullen (who spun in T31 XN247 that August avoiding an Auster), Longman, Hylton, Hopkins, Collins, Lasenby, Clarke, Pugh, Bradley, Bowman, Lovell, Turrell, Rock, Dave Pascall (who went to BA via Hamble), Burt, Earl, and of course the CO, Ron Hayter. Happy days!:)

[Dan Winterland]

87 minutes and 23 launches. Another dullard!

[Prangster]

'Wot appens when der cloud falls on yer ead sir?' 3rd Solo Kirton after 22 launches. Freezing cold with driven snow showers and lowering cloud base. 'We'll get you off when this shower passes ......' Found myself entering cloud at about 800ft on the launch. In retrospect the mind boggles!

Anyone got any photos of Kirton circa 63?

[pulse1]

CharlieOneSix,

That's a list of names to bring back happy memories. I think that I was the last person at 622 checked out by Ron Hayter for carrying passengers. That was at Old Sarum of course.

[bvcu]

couple of those names were still on 622 at upavon in 79 i think, will have to dig logbook out and check !

[Airclues]

Prangster

Perhaps we were at Kirton at the same time? 800ft cloudbase, freezing cold, windy. We pulled off before entering cloud, made four 90 degree left turns (not allowed to turn right due to buildings) and somehow the airfield always appeared under the nose. It would have been nice to have learned how to turn right, but that had to come later at Camphill and Long Mynd.

[CharlieOneSix]

CharlieOneSix,

That's a list of names to bring back happy memories. I think that I was the last person at 622 checked out by Ron Hayter for carrying passengers. That was at Old Sarum of course.

I called in to Old Sarum in October 1964, just three months before I got my RN wings and managed to scrounge a couple of rides with Collins and Clarke. Unfortunately I can't recall the vast majority of the Instructors' first names - I suppose they were all "Sir" in those days.

[chevvron]

I was definitely a slow learner; started at 613 on 3-10-64 and soloed on 7-11-64; 38 launches including my 3 solos, total time 2 hours dead.
Instructors:
Mike Duncombe*
Phil Plows (Chief Flying Instructor)
John (?) Chapman (can't remember first name)
Robin Miller (later became full time at CGS)
Chris Rust D'Eye
Paul Duncombe*(twin of Mike)
Dennis 'Jacko' (what's the holdup?) Jackson (CO) for solo checks.

*Their sister Judith was a teacher at my school!

[ChrisJ800]

I did a week introductory course mainly on a T21 at an airfield in Kent in the 80's when a teen. Cant remember the name of the field but the instructor's first name was John and was brilliant. Need to find my gliding log book. I didnt solo during the week but did so soon after.

[chevvron]

Possibly Challock or Waldershare Park.

[ChrisJ800]

Challock sounds right and there was a shallow ridge to the west of the field that the T21 could just about stay up in the lift zone!

[India Four Two]

in fact there is a German joke that Slingsby meant to build a Grunau Baby but used inches instead of centimetres and it came out a bit big!


astir 8, that's a great story. :)

The following is not Air Cadets, but I hope it is of interest. My first glider flight was in the Air Scouts T21b at Lasham in the early sixties. We had gone down for the weekend and after the briefings in the hangar about safety, signalling and where not to push, we went out to fly.

As usual, the flying roster was organized in alphabetical order and so, as usual, I was the last one on the list. So I waited patiently all day, doing the signalling, hook-ups and wing-running. Finally my turn came.

Our instructor was a tall, bearded Naval pilot, who in retrospect, looked a bit like Sharkey Ward, but then maybe all Naval pilots with beards look like Sharkey!

He had done a morning tug shift and then flown four-minute circuits all afternoon and so was presumably a bit bored by the time we launched. It was an auto-tow using an American pickup truck - the first one I had ever seen.

We released at about 1000', straight into a thermal! We climbed to 2200', floated around for a while before descending. "Would you like to see a loop?" "Yes, please, Sir!". So with me holding onto the shoulder-straps like grim death, I did my first-ever loops, in an open cockpit glider.

My colleagues on the ground were green with envy. So sometimes, it's worth being Tail-end Charlie. ;)

[gyp]

When I saw my name in Airclues' post it sent me to the loft as well. I can confirm that we managed only three days flying that week. It stretched our time-filling alternatives and used most of our supply of old films but it also sharpened our efficiency on the days we could fly. I'm glad it worked out for you Airclues.

The most concentrated instruction we ever gave was for one chap who wasn't able to arrive on a week's course until the Friday. All the other cadets had gone solo so he had a glider to himself for as much flying as he could manage. After occasional breaks and mealtimes he was still coping in mid-afternoon on his 20-somethingth launch so the last three launches of the day were his triumphant solos.

Incidentally, Airclues, Peter Bullivant, who did your pre-solo check, went on the train Prince Andrew. If I can find out how to post pictures I'll track down some from Kirton Lindsey.

[Airclues]

gyp

Many thanks for being my very first (of many) instructors. Despite the cold, it was great fun and made me determined to fly for a living. Although i continued gliding at Great Hucklow, Long Mynd and Booker, I never got to fly another open cockpit glider. My sixteenth birthday was on the Tuesday of the course (26/11/63).
I'd love to see any photos of Kirton in Lindsey at that time;

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/203481-image-posting-pprune-guide.html

[johnsshaw]

Anybody out there who was at 642 Gliding School Linton on Ouse about 1964/1965 I was a staff cadet then?

[CharlieOneSix]

This hardly counts but whilst I was undergoing my flying training at Linton I managed to scrounge a few trips in T21 WB978 in February/March 1964 - instructors were P/O Dalby and P/O Potts.

[johnsshaw]

Hi Charlieone six.You were there just before I started training. P/O Dalby and potts were two of my instructors and my first flight was in T21 WB978. Fantastic opportunity for a sixteen year old. I take it you were on Jet Provosts lovely aircraft. Thanks for replying.

[bobward]

Catching up with this thread after leaving it alone for almost a year, I was sad to note the passing of Sqn Ldr Ron Page, late of 611 VGS. Like many others, I went through 611 back in the late 1960's.

My training took place over six weekends in January and February 1968, accompanied by snow and mist etc. My one abiding memory being that the wind would come straight through the hole for the cable and up my left trouser leg......

As I've not got my 3822 to hand, I can't recall how many launches I did be fore solo, although I think it was around 25 or so, toltallying less than an hour, at 2 minutes per launch. What I do remember is the sheer thrill it gave me to become a pilot (of sorts!) at just over 16.

Ron Page was often called 'God', by both the cadets and some of the instructors. Many feared his sometimes abrupt nature, and he had little time for bullsh*tters. However, his main aim was to get cadets airborne, as that was what the Corps was there to do.

I know that I learned a lot, boith from him and the other instructors who trained me on 611. Even now I can recall CISTRS (Controls, Instruments, Spoilers, Trim, Release, Straps) - not bad for 45 years on (?)

So, thanks to all of you who gave up your weekends to train idiots like me. Blue Skies Ron!

[chevvron]

gyp: dunno about Prince Andrew but to my recollection Pete Bullivant trained Prince Charles at either Kinloss or Lossiemouth when he was attending Gordonstoun.
Second thoughts, maybe the gliding site was Milltown.

[gyp]

Yes, chevron, it was Milltown and it was definitely a 16-year old Prince Andrew. Peter Bullivant trained him in Sedbergh WB922. Peter told me that the first two solos were flown well but on the third, the Sedbergh turned downwind early and the nose went down. Then it recovered from the dive and flew a normal circuit. Andrew apparently considered doing a loop but then thought of his horrified instructor on the ground and relented.http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad117/gypbiggs/Gliding/P1080712.jpg[/URL]

[WE992]

The "Royal" Barge WB922 has arrived back with 621VGS Historic Flight at Hullavington and is looking absolutely fantastic after its complete overhaul at Bicester by Dave Bullock.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200718176130774&set=gm.615347408483928&type=1&theatre (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200718176130774&set=gm.615347408483928&type=1&theater)

[Arclite01]

I had a feeling that both of them were trained at Milltown - different times...........

Arc

[WE992]

Anybody flown this glider in the photo and have any stories to tell about it?

Slingsby T.31B Cadet TX3, BGA5283, Private (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1416981/)

[ChrisJ800]

Looks sleek compared to the T21 I learnt on!

[astir 8]

Don't know about the Mk III but that's me standing next to the cockpit of WJ 306 (Sedbergh) in the background:ok:

And the Capstan in front (BSE) is known universally as "The Mad Cow"

[longer ron]

Apologies if this has been posted before !
Gliding at Hawkinge 1956 :)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEQQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.britishpathe.com%2Fvideo%2Fair-training-corps-gliding-school&ei=UutOUpOEHKey0QXHrICwCQ&usg=AFQjCNEhL6SIKKakZIFGakpSVKJGPVLbag&sig2=cedPUjJophJDWg7XRD5Iqw

[l.garey]

Thanks longer ron. I was pleased to see at 4'07 XA282 in which I did my first solo and A and B certificates at Hawkinge in October 1958.

Laurence

[WE992]

Photos of the recently restored 'Royal Barge' can be found at:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/621-VGS-Historic-Flight/432970056815072

[Burnie5204]

Only just found this thread.

2 months ago 643VGS at RAF Syerston was closed.

Due to conservation of airframe hours 644VGS, also at Syerston, converted from Vigilants to Vikings about a year ago. Now this year the powers that be decided to merge the 2 squadrons into one and chose to keep it as 644VGS (even though 644 is both the junior squadron and had not been at Syerston as long)

[pegasus pete]

Browsing and came across this site. I did my course at Hawkinge in March 1958 instructed by F/O s Ladley and Deardon. Staff cadet at Hendon through to Oct 1960 and unfortunately have had little experience since then. It's going to bring back some memories going through this thread. Thanks.

[l.garey]

Welcome, Pete. You beat me by a few months. I was at Hawkinge in September and October 1958. I flew mainly with FO Mares, a bit with FL Matthews and Whittenbury, and just once with FL Ladley.
Laurence

[pegasus pete]

I'm intrigued. Just noticed in my log book that I also did some solo flights in XA282 but in May and June 1960 at both Hendon and Hornchurch. They must have moved the gliders around quite a bit.

[l.garey]

I flew XA282 15 times in 1958, all at Hawkinge, including my first 3 solos. See my post 953, above.

Laurence

[ShotOne]

Great pictures, takes me back! Thank you.

[theolderflyer]

Swanton Morley - they had a rather fierce chief flying instructor when I was doing my A & B late 60's "LOWER THE NOSE" you could hear from below.

[Rosevidney1]

The thing that astonished me back in the mid 1950s whilst learning to fly gliders is being able to hear people on the ground conversing normally. The sound floated upward very clearly from the mushroom pickers at RNAS Culdrose 800 feet or more below us. Hearing lurid details of someone's love life was not conducive to the task of flying accurately! :ooh:

[GliFly]

This is good, although it may have been posted before:

AIR TRAINING CORPS GLIDING SCHOOL - British Pathé (http://www.britishpathe.com/video/air-training-corps-gliding-school)

[India Four Two]

being able to hear people on the ground conversing normally

And the opposite. I can remember calm summer evenings, where I could clearly hear the instructor's patter as they drifted overhead, in a closed-cockpit glider!

[l.garey]

Thanks GliFly: we did indeed see it recently at post 952, but it's good to see it again, especially as it features my "own" XA282 ("own" as in "I flew it at Hawkinge"!)
Laurence

[Wander00]

As a kid being brought up in the leafy north western suburbs of London we often went out into the country for picnics. Dunstable Downs was a favourite, as we could sit there, watch the gliders and hear the instructors patter in the T21s overhead - another draw towards my interest in a flying career

[wrecker]

Anyone remember Wessex RAFGSA at Andover?

[astir 8]

There are also stories of comments being shouted from open cockpit gliders to "courting" couples who thought they were hidden in the undergrowth at various ridge soaring sites!:D:D

[theolderflyer]

Reading all this has taken me has taken me back to what a wonderful organisation the ATC was and still is. It boosted my self confidence, gave me a great deal of fun and the experience has been with with me and helped me all my life. I feel very privileged to have been involved. I can't thank my C.O., instructors and the organisation enough.

[621andy]

Haven't been on here for some time...and I'm absolutely amazed this thread is still running!:D

Keep the stories coming...

[scouserl41]

I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread. I was fortunate enough to be introduced to the ATC by a school friend, we were underage (I think you had to be 14? we were 13 but a couple of tall kids) We joined 1175 Squadron in Prenton Park Birkenhead.
One wonderful day we were sent out for Air Experience Flying to Burtonwood. I had never even been up close to a real airoplane before. It seemed like light years away from home. It must have been January or February as the misty memories have snow on the ground? That would have been 1963. I was magically lifted into the air and vividly remember looking down at the tiny houses, hangers and cars. I remember a hut with red cans filled with sand and "Butt Can" stencilled on them. A leftover from the USAF maybe?
Hooked for life! Later, in 1966 I was chosen for gliding training at Sealand. I walked out onto the airfield and a familiar figure strolled up. "Do I know you?" asked Jim Chapman my High School art teacher. "Yes sir you teach me art at Park High". "Well then I'll teach you to fly too" and off we set on a wonderful and sometimes wild adventure.
I remember him buzzing the train that ran down one side of the airfield. People have talked about doing stall/spin approach training but Jim had me fly full stalls and full spin and recovery.
One famous day as I was very near my solo a TA Austin Champ showed up on the airfield and set up a Parascending rig. Jim was on that like a dog on a bone but the TA guys weren't having any of it. "Only people trained in parachute use allowed" they told him. He launched into a great rant about "Parachute trained? I was a Fleet Air Arm pilot and was shot down twice by the Japanese" that belittle them into letting him have a go.
First time up and he broke his ankle on the descent! They sent an ambulance out for him and you could hear him cursing the bumps in the grass all the way out of sight! On monday I had a great story to tell at school.
I finished my course the next weekend I solo'd within a couple of days of my 16th birthday. This instilled a love of gliders in me although I've never held anything but that first A&B licence. I did fly a paraglider for a couple of years though and loved ridge soaring at Torrey Pines and thermalling over the California hills. I mainly built and flew Radio Control gliders which although not quite the same is certainly satisfying.
Jim's been gone for some time now but I'll bet he's giving some poor angel hell, up there where the sun shines and the lift never ends!
Thanks for keeping this great thread going.
Oh yes before I sign off. I suffered a stress induced breakdown several years ago, as part of the stress management techniques I had to think of the best time in my life and think about all the details, sounds, smells and colors. I use this to push away stress and anxiety when it threatens to overtake me, kind of my mantra. It starts with CISTRS!!
Thanks for listening
Brian

[tezzer]

Brian, me too, happy memories, but you had to be 13yrs 9 months to be enrolled, you could attend from around 13 (from distant memory) and to take part in activities such as AEF's and shooting, summers camps et al, you had to be enrolled.

I spent a lot of happy times, did some great summer camps, including Malta one year, and did my A&B at Linton On Ouse. Our AEF flights in Chipmunks were from Finningley (now Robin Hood Airport) Linton, Church Fenton, and Leconfield, 3 of which are now defunct, only Linton remains as a flying station.

Great times, great friends, and a good grounding in discipline and citizenship.

[GliFly]

Yes, I too owe a lot to the ATC.
As a 17-year old apprentice in the aircraft industry and a member of 220 St. Albans Squadron, it was suggested to me that I find out whether I would be acceptable as aircrew in the RAF. So 3 weeks after my 17th birthday off I went to RAF Hornchurch, RAF Aircrew Selection Centre. Several days of tests & medicals resulted in a final interview at which I was told that I was acceptable, but the advice was to complete my engineering training first. Then followed the almost off-the-cuff remark "But I see you are in the ATC. Would you like a Flying Scholarship to be going on with"? Wow, is the Pope a Catholic?
So Summer 1958 and I turn up at Luton Flying Club to fly Tigers and get my PPL at 17 years and 8 months.
From there it was gliding with 616 at Henlow with the great Peter Bullivant as my C.O. (he also worked at the same place as me - de Havilland Aircraft), a staff cadet-ship, advanced course at Halesland and a Civilian Instructor position at Henlow.
That made me a more self-confident and capable person in everything else in life.
The ATC was and probably still is a great organisation.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

It has been sometime now since the Former Old Gliding Instructors Extension Society (known as FOGIES), was mentioned.

The response from all corners of the world has been amazing, hence this reminder what FOGIES is all about.

Members enjoy bi annually dinners held in the Officers Mess RAF Linton on Ouse. Allowing renewal of old acquaintances and chewing the fat (as our American colleagues say), with friends old and new. Additionally members receive bi annually via email the FOGIE News.

Membership is open to Ex Civilian and Commissioned Instructors and past staff cadets alike for both wood or glass and all for the princely sum of £7 paid annually by standing order.


Please note however membership is not automatic and is subject to the scrutiny and approval of the FOGIE committee.



The email address for FOGIES is [email protected] ([email protected])

[WE992]

Some great photos of the 621 VGS Historic Flt in action:


https://www.facebook.com/pages/621-VGS-Historic-Flight/432970056815072

[GSX1250FA]

Just a quick note to say thanks so much to Al and the chaps at the Historical Flight who managed to get me aloft in XA310 today, first time since 1975 when I did my A + B at Locking. I'm sure the glider had shrunk since I last clambered aboard, so went in the rear seat, as I didn't seem to fit in the front anymore. I'm sure this was entirely due to the armour and padding in my leather motorcycle trousers of course...

The forum needs a 'Lump in Throat' emoticon!

Thanks again, you made my day!

Tim

[India Four Two]

I'm sure the glider had shrunk since I last clambered aboard

Funny that. I noticed the same thing a couple of years ago when I flew in an aircraft that I had flown once before, over 40 years ago. I complained to a friend that the cockpit had shrunk and he charitably suggested that I was in a 7/8 scale Vampire!

The Vampire's owner refers to it as a '250 kt wooden motorglider'.

[WE992]

Does anybody have any photos of Venture ZA656 whilst it was in use with the ATC which they could post or email me please? I believe it flew with 612, 613 and 624 Gliding Schools and perhaps others.

[Spitfirefan]

Gosh, this has brought back a few memories. I did my AIr Cadet A&B at the CGS Detachment, Swanton Morley, in the early-mid 70s - a dull (weather-wise) October week, but most of our course soloed before the rain came in on the last day. Soloed on XN236 at the end of the Wednesday with the light fading, then had to wait until the next day and another couple of check rides before I could do the other two.

Instructors? Mine was Flt Lt Alan Pond, CFI at the time, we also had Flt Lts Ian Ladley and Stan Easton.

My ATC squadron also went to Debden for famil gliding, where I found out from the passenger/trainee seat that you could loop a Sedbergh.

Happy days ...

[clivewatson]

Faces from the past......I've been away for a year or so and the thread is still going strong.

Great pics of DN and DB cleaning boots, and just figured out who farns744 must be (KF?). Those from Kenley will of course remember Barbara, DB's wife, and the familiar briefing that DB was often heard giving prior to a student lesson...."when you get to the top of the launch, turn left. Right?"

And how could I forget the old AC, before and after the paint job. (I seem to recall learning how to siphon fuel at around that time, not that the two were in any way connected).

Also a great movie shot at Hawkinge, and I think maybe that's where Alex started, or was it Detling? Not sure which came first though.

Sad to read about Brian Lamb's passing, and yes he was a great character. Many familiar names from the distant past popping up like Ian Ladley, Soapy King, Pete Bullivant, Alan Pond, Stan Easton, John Wynch and Brian(?) Johnstone, et all from Swanton Morley/Spitlegate/Halesland who I all had the pleasure (in most cases) of flying with, or being checked by at some time or another.

I did my silver distance from SM in 71 in the swallow and shortly after setting course got hopelessly lost. I decided to keep going as far as possible and upon reaching the coast I landed (downwind) in a field. I popped off the canopy and placed it alongside the fuselage, then having jumped out, and while changing wings, I heard a rather loud sound of said perspex canopy cracking! To add insult to injury I then called the retrieve team and gave them the wrong map coordinates, sending them on a wild goose chase in completely the wrong direction....(before mobile phones of course).

Regarding CISTRS are you sure it was changed that far back? Memory fades of course but I was sure it was much later, maybe mid 70's or even early 80's. (When the Grobs were introduced I do remember it was CBSITCB, but later, after someone took off with a tail dolly still attached, that item was added to the list - although probably by that time the use of printed checklists became the norm.

I keep promising to do it, but I will dig out some of Alex's old KY snaps when I next visit Doff (and for those who know her I'm very pleased to report that she is still going strong, and in great health) and somewhere I know I have a picture of Pobjoy taken down by the winch, standing next to Ian Harry, and I think also Phip Loose. Perhaps the latter are also lurking on the thread?

Best regards to Pobjoy, Frelon, Keith C and, KF.

Clive

[Frelon]

Here you go Clive......a picture taken in the early '60s by Alex Watson at 615 Kenley.

Picture shows Dave Manley + 1.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/T21Kenley_zpse6af944c.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/Biggles615/media/T21Kenley_zpse6af944c.jpg.html)

[CH2]

Probably seen on other website but....the former ZA655 with WG308
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/CH2/IMG_6563a_edited-1_zpsc259f815.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/CH2/media/IMG_6563a_edited-1_zpsc259f815.jpg.html)
ZA634 and WG308, both taken on a sortie to Little Gransden in August
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/CH2/IMG_7213a_zpse46f1133.jpg (http://s20.photobucket.com/user/CH2/media/IMG_7213a_zpse46f1133.jpg.html)

[GSX1250FA]

Hi all, just a quick note to say I have been working on a project to design a 1:32 plastic model kit of the T31b. Al Stacey has been unstinting in his help with this project, and I was able to do a huge chunk of the research necessary on XA310. I will have a prototype model on display at this week-ends ScaleModelWorld 2014 show at Telford, and if anyone is passing, I'd be more than happy to have a chat about the project, or flying T31s in general!! Look for Flying Start Models in Hall 1.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/1051173/photo-1024x768.jpg?1403208334

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/175/913/016ce7cdc7948c3b9952062d437ced55_large.jpg?1403365721

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/175/907/97fd582f92f475a9ce9118f13d556369_large.JPG?1403365638

Sorry for the short notice, I got a cancellation table at the show only a couple of weeks ago!!

Tim Perry

[WE992]

Tim - Simply brilliant, I think there are a lot of posters on this thread who have probably soloed in the MK3 who ought to support this project.

[CharlieOneSix]

That looks good - I'll have one when they are in production! Just looked in my logbook, can't believe it's almost 53 years since my first solo in XN247 in March 1962. Sadly it's no longer with us as it spun into the ground at Christchurch on 19/8/62 but the one in which I did my last T31 flight in 1964, XN246, I saw a few years ago in the Solent Sky museum.

http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l543/CharlieOneSix/XN246_zpsd0a0ef67.jpg

[astir 8]

After the T31 may we have a T21 (Sedbergh) please!

[WE992]

Astir 8 - I'll second that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mrmac58]

The T31 Mark III was the first glider I solo's at 634VGS St Athan. Migrating to the back seat for a winch launch was something else !!

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Excellent
As one who has done over 6000 landings in one of these (Including pre spoiler days), when it goes into production please advise.
Being a member of FOGIES (Former Gliding Instructors Extension Society), I am sure that most if not all of our members will be interested in this.
[email protected] is the contact email address.

[603DX]

I'm another potential purchaser of the T31 kit, having blissfully risked my young neck on my solos back in 1957, happy memories!

But CharlieOneSix,in his excellent Solent Sky photo above, also captured an example of the Eon Primary glider suspended behind the T31. Now that Eon really terrified me, back then! We had one for use on the school field on CCF afternoons, launched down the slope towards the main school buildings by the usual V-shaped rubber bungee ropes. Having just returned from my gliding course at Halton, our officer insisted that I "show the lads how to do it". And I was reluctantly strapped onto that fully exposed flimsy seat at the front, while my classmates sneakily gave about 50% more stretch to the bungees than they were instructed to provide.

Twice before, our Eon had to be returned to the RAF for repairs after hitting the school buildings (fortunately without injury to the unfortunate victims), so my pulse rate went up to astronomic levels, and with stick hard forward my whizz-bang catapulted "flight" never left the ground. The long groove cut by the skid in the muddy grass took a long time for the groundsman to restore to its former green glory ... ;)

[DaveReidUK]

But CharlieOneSix, in his excellent Solent Sky photo above, also captured an example of the Eon Primary glider suspended behind the T31.

Strictly speaking, Solent Sky's is a Slingsby-built Grasshopper rather than an EoN Primary (Eton), though of course both are based on the SG 38 Schulgleiter.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Fascinating thread. Freon's post #52 is in the hangar at Eaglescot if I'm right. Barry won't part with those gliders. I own WT905, she will be airworthy again in 2015 and I would love to hear from anyone who flew her in the ATC.


The list on post 156 has her written off in 1955. Slingsby did most of the repairs back then and have no record of her going back for repair and I can't see any old repairs under the fabric, but would love to know more.


I've got 15,000 flying hours and the T31 is still one of my favourite mounts.


SND

[POBJOY]

Due to the Kenley Air Day being cancelled i am having my own 'WALK' on the 15th Sept (see thread in Historic section)
All former staff cadets from 615 welcome to meet.
Pobjoy

[621andy]

Haven't been on here for yonks, but amazed to see this thread still going!

Yep, I'll have a T31 when you start production....and I'm with Al and a lot of others I suspect when he says a T21 should be next:ok:

[WE992]

I wish I had the skill to post photos here as the Historic Flight at Hullavington braved the cold to fly the Barge and Prefect today in the January sunshine.

[Airclues]

WE992

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/246758-image-posting-pprune-guide.html

[WE992]

Prefect at Hullavington

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/WZ793/ZH2.jpg

[WE992]

MK3 at Hullavington


http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/WZ793/ZH1.jpg

[WE992]

T.21 at Hullavington


http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/WZ793/T21BWB9221.jpg

[WE992]

Grasshopper at Hullavington


http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/WZ793/ZH5.jpg

[WE992]

Hullavington from the Swallowhttp://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/WZ793/ZH4.jpg