Air Cadet Gliding pix in the 80s (pre glass)

[621andy]

Got my BGA log book here, so here are the ATC gliders I've flown- either in ATC use, or in civvy hands-

WB991 -T21
WB922- T21- first solo!
WB963- T21
WB942- T21
XN148- T21
WB958- T21
WJ306- T21
WB962- T21
WG498- T21
R92(Milreg?)- T21

XA310- Mk3
XN253- MK3
XN240- MK3(currently in Belgium)
WT877- Mk3
XA308- Mk3
XE791- Mk3
WT919-MK3
WT903-Mk3
WT908-Mk3

Swallow- XS651 (Currently in Cyprus)

plus now of course, Prefect WE992:ok:

[astir 8]

Good one son!

[astir 8]

OK Andy - I've got to ask re your photos

Why was the guy in the back seat of that T31 (ok Mk III) facing backwards?


And how??? He doesn't seem to be high enough to be kneeling - did he have his legs shoved down the back of the fus somewhere? (in among the control cables!)

Presumably with the seat harness around his back?

Rear gunner trainee?

But it obviously worked! Eeee, you could enjoy yourself before they invented elf n safety.

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

Its the new way of checking 'all clear above and behind' . . .:ok:

[longer ron]

I was once asked if it was 'all clear above and below ' :D

[wz662]

On the subject of facing rearwards. I witnessed the CO of a VGS doing the same thing in a Barge on the last day of Conventional ops before the VGS converted to the Venture.
The Seat back and parachute tray? were removed and his legs (carefully) inserted into the fuselage before the harness was fixed together behind his back.
He was strangely rather subdued after landing and only much later revealed why. He had never realised just how much the fuselage bent during launch until he saw it on that flight.:eek:
I've also heard on many occasions stories of crews changing places in flight. Reasonbly easy I suppose for the Barge but these stories also mention it being done in the Mk III brick, anyone else heard of it / seen it / done it?.

[Fitter2]

One still prominent BGA member (probably too fat now to fit in a T21 solo) did his 5 hours at Bicester in a T21 with nose ballast.

It was noticed that he took off in the right hand seat, and landed in the left hand one.

He was allowed to claim the flight for his Silver, but spent the rest of the week driving the winch.

[Arclite01]

Seen Clive W***** and Jim K*** change seats in the MK3 at a VGS just inside the M25 near Caterham....................... bloomin' tight for time though..............................and CG changes very iffy I was told..............

Changing seats in the Barge was easy stuff.....................

Arc

[nimbus145]

Whilst there's talk of sitting backwards in MKIII's I was told this story from a reputable source which stopped one VGS from doing this further and probably a few more if they had known!

The story goes....

P2 sat backwards with a camera to record the event. After launch P1 entered a series of severe aerobatic manouvers ( stalls and dives) which P2 considered was a little sporting whilst he was trying to take photos. The aeros finished at a low height followed by a prompt landing.

What happened? Well during the launch the rear seat stick ( held on the backstop in true pole bending fashion) got hooked underneath the straps holding in P2 ( he was oblivious as facing the rear!). After launch P1 couldn't prevent the glider from stalling and diving with each manouver getting worse than the previous as the stick was stuck fully back. By the grace of god and at a low attitude during the reduced 'g' of one of the stalls, the straps went slack and released the stick!!!

As i say this story is second hand to me but I have no reason to doubt its authenticity!

[clivewatson]

Arclite01, I was tipped off that you may have confused me with someone else. Swapping seats in a Mk III? I just checked my log book, and I was at the winches for the whole day and didn't fly that day! (Probably still grounded due to the mishap with the police car aerial!)

Happy days!

[astir 8]

Fitter

5 hours in a T21!!! He must have had an iron ar**. He would have needed to finish it standing up, never mind in the other seat!

Talking once to an old Cadets instructor, he spoke of doing over 40 launches a day in T21's! What a hero!

I'm knackered after a dozen in something "comfortable" like the back seat of a K13.

[Fitter2]

5 hours in a T21!!! He must have had an iron ar**. He would have needed to finish it standing up, never mind in the other seat!

I believe the cushion moved seats too. If you see a rotund bearded cross-country pilot at Rougham you can ask him yourself. (No further clues to identity).

[621andy]

I once did 53 in a day! It was a dawn to dusk though...

[621andy]

WRT; backwards seating- I wondered if anyone would notice:}

Quite straightforward really, seatback out, legs down the fuselage and get someone to strap you in. I have a couple of incriminating pics of a serving ATC instructor and CFI of a club in exactly this position- wearing the regulation Uvex goggles of course..will post unless I hear otherwise from you...you know who you are!

I can't see how the straps could get caught on the stick, but I suppose if they were a bit loose to prevent nadger crush, then it might be possible. Think I might have 'communicated' with backseat chappy though...

[WE992]

621 Andy

R92 at Crusaders used to be WG499.

[621andy]

Thank you Al:ok:

Ok, here are a couple of incriminating pics...

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/File0195Kopie.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/File0196Kopie.jpg

[621andy]

A more recent shot of some MK3s at the Aventoft Vintage Glider rally in 1999.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/029-2.jpg

[621andy]

Bad Sastard that I am:}, I've gone through my logbooks and have noted the following first(and last) flights....for those of you still flying or owning our ex playthings:ok:

WB991- FF30.3.80 (WSM) Last T21 flight 21.9.85.

XA310- FF17.6.81 LF 22.10.83 (WSM)

XN253- FF10.8.81 (Syerston)

WB922- FF10.8.81 & 1st solo 13.8.81 (Syerston)

XN148- FF 11.8.81 (Syerston)

XN240- FF23.1.82 (WSM)

WB958- FF 31.1.82 (Halesland)

WT877- FF 14.3.82 (WSM)

XA308- FF 3.4.82 (WSM)

WJ306- FF9.10.82 LF 14.10.84 (x3)(Halesland)

WB963- FF11.10.84 (Halesland)

WB942- FF13.10.84 (Halesland)

WT903- Last wooden glider 21.9.83

WT919- ??

Oh, and the Swallow XS651 -FF13.8.83 LF 14.8.83!

[astir 8]

Thanks Andy. I was flying WJ306 last Sunday - she sends greetings

[Fitter2]

According to

http://rcawsey.co.uk/slingsby.htm (http://rcawsey.co.uk/slingsby.htm)

WT919 (my first solo steed, Kirton in Lindsey March 1960) has been exiled to Sweden. I just hope they tuck it up nice and warm in Winter.

[praesta2]

621Andy - I thought it might have been you! Don't suppose you have any pics of the Open Class Nationals at Hullavington and Lasham in 86 and 87 or are they still subject to the 30 year rule?

Cheers
Jarv

[Biggles of 266]

Fabulous pictures all.....

Request for a picture of WT873 in service, she was at:
Cosford
Tangmere
Linton-on-Ouse
Wethersfield
St Athan
Old Sarum

Dartmoor G.C.
Ringmer G.C.

Please please :-)
Guy

[Biggles of 266]

I am trying to complete the spray stencilling on WT873.

Could anybody comment on the location or owner of the most 'Original' T31 left. And by that I mean unrestored and still in RAF livery.

I have deciphered most of the markings, but do not know the text which was on the top surface of the tailplane (picture on post 175). I thought it said 'CHECK INCIDENCE HERE' like the T21, but this clearly does not fit.

There was also, on some, a big block of text on the left side of the pillar by the pilot's head. Here it can be seen on XE 798

Slingsby Cadet TX3, XE798, Royal Air Force (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1028642/)

But I have no idea what it said. Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers
Guy

[Biggles of 266]

This is probably what every cadet (and Instructor) imagined he was flying.

WT873 in new (1939) colours for 2009

I hope I am not talking to myself :}

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2148/3534899765_1417a00306_o.jpg

[621andy]

You're not wrong there, 266:ok::}

DAKKA DAKKA DAkKA DAKKA....

[shortstripper]

Please tell me you didn't use paint from B&Q Guy!

What is the name "Hathor" for?

Looking forward to seeing her again sometime soon :ok:

Here's one of her on an earlier mission

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e0m1e1vzBGE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/e0m1e1vzBGE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

SS (aka Ivan)

[Biggles of 266]

Hombase actually! :}

I thought you would have looked it up!

It has delusions of the grandure of Imperial Airways along with Heracles, Horatius, Hadrian, Hannibal, Hengist, Hanno, Helena, Horsa etc.

Hathor, was an Egyptian Cow Goddess! Which I thought was very appropriate! Considering she was converted by a dairy farmer, and I found her in a cow shed! Stinking of Cow!

More pictures here Flickr: Bobdcuk's Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22405356@N05/)


Guy

[621andy]

You mean it actually flies???!!!:ooh:

[Biggles of 266]

Better than you might think.
It actually makes a very useable aeroplane.
It has all the nostalgia of open T31 flying, but you can actually fly it for more than 3 minutes at a time! We plan to fit decompressors, which will enable air starting, so that will widen the practicality still further.
Guy

[BEagle]

What sort of cruise speed is WT873 capable of achieving?

In level flight, that is, normally rather an unusual flight regime for a T31!

'Hathor' does seem to have rather of lot of in-built drag.... But looks quite fun.

[shortstripper]

I have to admit Guy, that when I first heard that you were going to camouflage her I was a bit horrified! However, looking at the pictures, I rather think it suits her. It'll be interesting to see the reaction she'll get at any fly-ins you attend!

All the best :ok: SS

Beagle ... Without the Lewis guns, she used to cruise very nicely at 55 knots. She would do 65, but was very breezy at that and used a lot more fuel (about 2gallons/hour at 55kts but 3gallons/hour at 65kts).

[Biggles of 266]

Thanks SS,

I'm glad you like it.
She looks even better in the flesh.

Guy

[old-timer]

What a neat job, I like it & want one too - :ok:it looks like fun which powerplant do you use ?

How about a Sedburgh twin engine version ? :D

[WE992]

I think the Motor Tutor conversion its a waste of what once was a useful glider! However, we are all allowed our own opinions and what the Motor Tutor has to do with this thread I just don't know. How about sombody posting some photos and putting us back on thread?

[shortstripper]

Threads often drift a bit WE992. That's what keeps them going and makes them interesting, though I suppose a new offshoot thread is probabably a good idea sometimes.

As for the T31m, well I have to disagree, but like you say "we all have our opinion"

When I converted G-BZLK she was a little used glider that was out of permit. Like many T31 gliders, she was stuffed in the back of a hangar and rarely flown. Many T31's have just rotted away once their CofA's have expired! As a glider they were rubbish except for the job in which they were intended. However, the cadets have moved on and so have gliding clubs. They no longer want 2 minute circuits even though that was a pretty good way to learn IMHO.

So what's best? An original glider that rarely flies or even rots away .... or a very useful motor glider that flies and flies? I did over 100 hours in LK before selling her, attended about 25 fly-ins and had great fun in her. It looks like Guy is on his way to take the world by gun in her and I hope and expect she'll be FLYING for many years.

Just my opinion of course :ok:

SS

[Biggles of 266]

I didn't want to cause controversy.

I thought that a picture of WT873, as she is now was relevent. Especially to those who may have flown her.

Isn't 'difference' what makes the workd go round? This would be an awfully boring place if we all thought and did the same things.

Personally, I think there is a place for perfectly restored T31 gliders, just as they were, and a place for something different and unique.

Owning BZLK, has given me a taste for T31's, and I would now like to find one to restore and fly As a glider! Funny old world!

But I agree, lets have some more ATC pictures!
Guy

[shortstripper]

I always thought it would be nice to find a T31 fuselage and restore it and use LK's wings for both. There must be wing damaged T31's out there?

SS

[kevmusic]

Well I've had a root around and these are the last of my collection. Apologies for the execrable quality of these and they really would be scraping the barrel but for the fact they depict the last flight in service of 617's Barge, XN155.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/scan0004-1.jpg

Al Tapsell and J.A.K. "Bill" Williams.



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/scan0005-1.jpg

Up she goes.


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/scan0007.jpg

VNE - ish! :eek:


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/scan0008.jpg

Barge sunset.

[Biggles of 266]

Well done, I thought this thread had died!

Is that Rolf Harris in the Right hand seat???? ;)

Not ATC, but I hope relevant. Here is BGA 668, the week I went solo. in this a/c at Portmoak in 1976. Sadly this a/c was damaged and used for spares at Upwood in 1985.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2437/3552187945_ec1666eef9_o.jpg

and BGA869, in front of Bishop Hill, Portmoak 1976. This T21 is evidently now in Delmenhorst, Germany awaiting restoration.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3552187947_d012bed4a2_o.jpg

Guy

[Jennyt1]

Hi, I was just looking for info on my father-in-law/Typhoons when i found your post. Ian Ladley sadly died in 1990 and is sorely missed, He was indeed a great character. My husband and our son (Ian's son and grandson) have continued the family tradition, my husband glides and is a tuggy and my son also glides, I alsoglide on the odd occasion having been a solo pilot many years ago. We all fly from Shipdham Airfield in Norfolk being members of the '8' Ball Soaring Group which is part of Shipdham Flying club in sunny Norfolk. Up until 1995 we still flew from just beside Swanton Morley Airfield having been made to re-locate due to the Army taking over the airfield (not a popular move!).
Anyway, if you (or indeed anyone else reading this post) have any pictures/anecdotes/stories etc etc about Ian I would very much love to hear from you.
Happy landings,
Janet Ladley

[Frelon]

Hi Janet

My instructor at No 1 CGS Hawkinge was Jeff Naylor, but I was checked to fly solo by Ian Ladley. When you are young and impressionable, these are the sort of people one aspires to. I then decided that I wanted to do what they did and become a Gliding Instructor!

I became a staff cadet and worked my way up the Air Cadet gliding instructor ladder and I flew with Ian a number of times on recat checks.

I worked long and hard and became CFI of an Air Cadet Gliding School. Well worth the hard work!

They are not forgotten.

[Jennyt1]

The name Jeff Naylor rings a bell, I must have heard it mention in the family.
It's nice to know that the likes of Ian inspired so may folk, as we are still in touch with the 611 at Watton we know that that inspriration continues.
I'll pass your kind thoughts on to hubby and son.
Regards.

[pterosaur]

I knew Geoff Naylor at London Gliding Club Dunstable in the early seventies. A very nice chap, and a gifted pilot and instructor. He also was a talented artist, I still have two of his pictures on my wall. What happened to him after that?

[XA290]

663 VGS RAF Kinloss 29th June 1986

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/SAVE0026.jpg?t=1245256861

This was taken on the second last day of "wood" at Kinloss

L-R Steven Laing, Geoff Smith, Terry McNeill, Roddy Kemp, Roddy MacRae, Laurie Beaton (The Boss), Gavin MacDonald, Paddy Cunningham, Gordon Crookshanks, Alan Gray, Duncan Sutherland, Jeremy Joynson, Mark Conway and Graham Morrison

Missing from the picture - Bob McGregor, John Hutchinson, Richard Osbourne, Ian Smith, Alan Docherty, Ken Thompson and Mark Shelly

The aircraft were WB961, WB974, XE785, XA290 and XN241 and the cadets were from 161 ATC Squadron Inverness.

It was quite a sad day as 663 VGS was the last operational school in the UK to finish on "wood". The penultimate school to finish on "wood" had been two weeks previously and ACCGS" had stopped flying "wood" on the previous Friday.

It had been planned to fly long into the evening of Sunday 29th June as it was our last chance before the airfield was to be dug up and we converted onto the Venture T2. As with many summer days at Kinloss, the wind was swinging round quite a bit. So at about 1530 it was planned to change ends from runway 08 to runway 26. This was done by launching all the aircraft and recovering them to the other end of the airfield.

I was last in line for launch and the wind had swung round quite a bit by the time i got the last cable. It took some time to get flying speed with the tail wind, but finally i got up in the air achieving a lofty 700ft before cable release. This was just enough height for a gentle 180 degree turn over the forest and land on the 26 end.

I had just pulled the aircraft off the landing site when i noticed a Sedbergh in a very nose down attitude at about 900ft above the airfield. It promptly pulled up into a very smart loop, leveled off and turned down-wind for landing. It was not the first time a Sedbergh had been upside down over Kinloss but it was the first time it had been done in front of the "Boss" Laurie Beaton (top bloke).

Probably quite rightly he thought the silly season was about to descend so flying operations were suspended early. There was one final Sedbergh flight with Jeremy Joynson and Roddy Kemp.

So it turned out, unknown to me, that i had just flown the last operational Kerby Cadet Mk3 flight in RAF service. It was XN241 and my passenger was cadet Kerr. It lasted 3 minutes. :)

Oh the looping pilot...................... was one P...y C........m :ok: (another top bloke) who had taught me to fly.

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/SAVE0027.jpg?t=1245259905

Last take-off and landing of Sedbergh at Kinloss 29 June 1986
The wings don't look too bent from its loop on the previuos flight

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/Waiting.jpg?t=1245260559

Lunch on the Sunday 29th - Waiting for the fog to lift

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/Beech.jpg?t=1245260714

The p**s up on the beech to celebrate/commiserate the end of "wood"

Great times and i would love to do it all over again :ok:

[XA290]

663 VGS - RAF Kinloss - All Weather Gliding School

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/MK3Snow.jpg?t=1245336113

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/Snow2.jpg?t=1245272277

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/CaravanSnow.jpg?t=1245336184

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/SedSnow.jpg?t=1245336218

As you can see we would fly in all sorts of weather. Normally we would wait for the showers to pass :) but in between showers there was a chance for some fun. One of our pilots was called Bob. He was known affectionatly as Bob Knob.

While he was flying, large objects would be built in the snow or massive drawings would be made (as can be seen in the top picture) in the snow that could be seen from circuit height (not that high i guess).

Another wheeze was to build massive snow balls and give them to the PAX to lob over board at the top of the launch. The aim being to try and get it onto the grill on top of the winch thus covering the hapless winch driver in snow. I seem to recall on this day in March 86 we had quite a bit of success. It took practice though. :ok:

[Farns744]

A couple of shots taken at Kenley Oct 1968.

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/kdf744_photos/kenley1a.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/kdf744_photos/kenley4a.jpg

[XA290]

.............. some more 663 VGS pics

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/SAVE0034.jpg?t=1245517669

Waiting for launch on the 08 end with the NMSU in the background



http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss319/xa290/SAVE0033.jpg?t=1245517704

Down-wind left with Findhorn Bay in the background

IIRC this was taken on a mid week flying evening in May 1986 so the BBC could get some footage to use on a programme about Prince Andrew. It was to be put out before his wedding later in the year.

To achieve this picture, two Barges had to be launched in quick succession (the first one having to pole bend like b*gg**y) and then formate. I have to say it looked great from the ground. I cant remember who was flying at the time though.

[Wander00]

This thread brings back memories - Primary "slides" on the school field with the RAF CCF (Harrow County), flying scholarship (Sywell) and then as I had 5 months to wait before Sleaford Tech I joined the local (Ruislip) ATC Squadron, and blagged a gliding course at Swanton Morley (Oct 62). Heard about the Cuban Missile Crisis in the middle of the airfield and we future pilots expressing the hope that they held the war off until we were through flying training - stupid youths!

Now living in France and aged 65 I am about to start gliding again at Fontenay le Comte in the Vendee - booked in for bapteme de l'air at 1500 next Sunday. Cannot wait!

Wander00

[Wander00]

How about a 4 hour aero tow in March from Cranwell to Weston Super Mare and return 10 days later - in T21s. We did that in either 63 or 64 and the trip required a landing at Weston Zoyland to refuel the Chipmunk tugs from cans. We had 2 flying suits on each with thermal underwear (woolly bears) and helmet inners and Mk1 bonedomes on for warmth (No, less cold). A couple of us helped with a retrieve from a field in the Mendips (NOT a T21) and we convinced the slightly slow witted barmaid in a pub that we were specialist vets looking after a trailer load of dachsund horses! Silly really.

Wander00

[Props]

I can't remember the Number but I had a wonderful time as a Staff Cadet at Langley Bucks, Hawkers Factory was building Sea Furies and BSAA flying Yorks and Lancs of the grass.
Must have been 48 &49 I guess.

[pulse1]

How about a 4 hour aero tow

Wander00,

It's a long time since I've aerotowed a T21 but I seem to remember being exhausted by the time I got to 2000', just from holding the stick fully forward. Even with two of you, it must have been hard work.

[WE992]

Props

It was 125 GS at Langley!

[Dope]

Anyone know where 'MY' aircraft has gone? Last known 'stored at Rufforth'
I havent totted the exact number of launches I did in her, and might not have flown her the most but it seems that way..... I miss her and want her back. I've tried T31's-reunited but just havent worked! Any T31 owners out there allow a Wood B cat and a Viking A cat a little pole?

[Farns744]

Post 1969 Battle of Britain Air Display, Biggin Hill. Start of aerotow by Chipmunk of T21b back to base at Kenley.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh240/kdf744/biggin2a.jpg

[cambioso]

637 GS Gaydon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was priviledged to be a Staff Cadet (later CI and "B" Cat) at 637 GS Gaydon 1968-72 and then 622 Old Sarum '73-76. 2000+ launches T21, T31, Prefect, and Swallow.
Les Stockdale, Bill Walker, Bill Jones, Jim Morrow, Tony Dring, Dave Bellis, Pete Fanshaw, Ted Smith, Dave Austin, Paul Whitehead, Paul Whitters, Johnny Diamond, Brian Richardson, Woodbridge(!!), Tudor Pugh, Les, Rog Edge - where are you all now??
Hitch hiking in my ATC uniform from school in Solihull after rugger on a Sat mornings, driving the winch all afternoon, nightstopping on the floor in the office with the rest of the guys (no bunkhouse, Gaydon was on "care and maintenance" by then) maybe a couple of 3 min launches late on Sunday. Doing my weekend prep in the back of Ted's car on the way home Sunday evening, back again next weekend for the same all over again.................
Happy Happy memories and such a good upbringing for a tearaway 16 year old!
Jez Cooke.

[JW411]

WE992:

Here are a few more snippets for you. Most of my gliding was done in the RAFGSA (1963 - 1979) but I did start with the ATC.

08.08.55 T21 WG497 RAF Detling (Home Command Gliding Instructors School)
12.08.55 T21 WB925 As above

30.06 57 T31 XE810 No.662 GS RAF Edzell
30.06.57 T21 WB938 As above (I got 10 launches that day)
01.07.57 T21 WB923 As above
01.07.57 T31 XE785 As above (I got 17 launches that day including 3 solos)
04.07.57 T31 XE785 As above (3 launches)

XE785 is now in a glider museum in New Mexico. I was invited to go over there on the 50th anniversary of my first solo in her but I couldn't make it.

The next Air Cadets machine that I flew was the dreaded T53 XV951 at RAF Swanton Morley on 27.10.71. It did absolutely nothing for me. In fact, I remember Doug Bridson describing it as a very expensive means of raising a decent canopy above the earth.

I was told that some old buffer in HQ Air Cadets was suggesting that it should be flown with the airbrakes wire-locked one inch open so as to reduce its performance to that of a T31!

I was at Sutton Bank one day when a team from Slings appeared with a trailer and proceeded to get a T53 out and start to rig it. I was astonished to see them put the tailplane on before attaching either wing! As you have probably already guessed, they dropped the fuselage on its side so they put the rather bent remains back in the trailer and set off back to the factory.

Talking of T31s, I had a quick ride in XN238 at Swanton Morley on 28.10.71 for old time's sake.

[l.garey]

Can't quite compete with JW411 as to date, but I did my A and B Certificates at Hawkinge from 30.9.1958 to 2.10.1958. 22 flights on Cadet Mark 3s WT918 and XA282. Maximum flight time 3 minutes! Instructors were FL Matthews, FO Mares, FL Ladley and FO Whittenbury.
Later progresed to the T21 at Polebrook and K13 at Weston-on-the-Green, and then got really stuck into gliding at Challes-les-Eaux in the French Alps.
No pictures I am afraid!

Laurence

[2 sheds]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2208/2335258065_3dc343737f_o.jpg (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2208/2335258065_3dc343737f_o.jpg)

All 1963-66 Swanton Morley

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2208509727_184a6a6bb2_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2068/2209988211_69fde82d80_o.jpg

Instructors L to R:
Dougie King, Geoff Naylor, Ian Ladley, Ian(?) Ross, Ron Whittenbury

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2092/2210766594_759aeffb45_o.jpg

Tony Bowen

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2013/2336095772_d3c45d98d1_o.jpg

and at Halesland...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2336078244_59c81bb0f4_o.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2414/2197512024_273d605e76_o.jpg

Pilot - Pat Hudson.
Prefect with "cutaway" canopy for flying at Halesland - to stand a fighting chance of seeing the field!

[621andy]

2 Sheds- Wot cracking pics,esp., Halesland:ok: And a few faces come back to haunt me too...:oh:

[JEM60]

Halesland!!. An instructor put a Sedburgh down in a nearby field due to poor judgement. It was late afternoon, and it was decided to secure it and leave it there overnight, Being Staff Cadet [613 Halton] I volunteered to spend the night with the offending instructor and one other. We spent the night in the back of a Bedford 3 tonner, with a gas stove and a paraffin lamp secured to the roof. Cooked bacon and eggs. Unfortunately, said paraffin lamp was leaking straight into the food. Three very sick people later in the day. Have spent better nights, usually with women tho'.
Next morning we all manhandled the complete aircraft across two fields, dismantling two dry stone walls to achieve this. Happy days!!

[Wander00]

We did half an hour at a time, but it was pretty tiring and VERY cold. The Swanton Morley pics bring back memories from the dingy recesses of what passes for my brain - was in the back of a Land Rover there when the Cuban Missile Crisi broke

Wander00

[JW411]

I can remember reading an article in the old S&G about a new T21 being delivered by aerotow from UK to Sweden.

[Biggles of 266]

Would it float if you had a cable break? I doubt if 'Ditching procedure' is in the manual!
Guy

[JW411]

From what I can remember the time over the sea was kept to an absolute minimum and they routed through Belgium, Holland and Denmark. I think it took them four days!

I suspect they had muscles like Popeye by the time they got to Sweden.

[astir 8]

T21 WJ 306 (ex Halesland) now has a spring trimmer and sealed aileron gaps. She aerotows far better than in her original form but it's still horrible! Not so much the trim as the "interesting" aileron response>

4 hours on aerotow! 'kin 'ell. They don't make 'em like that any more. 10 minutes is quite enough & then pull the yellow knob with huge relief! A really slow tug helps a lot though.

Incidentally WJ 306 also now has the "official" winch launch CofG hook. It gives 50% higher launches than the standard hook (record is 2150 feet on the wire at Weston on the Green) but then the ATC didn't really want high launches as I understand it!

[Corsairoz]

I did my very first solo's in XN246, and now I get to see her every weekend working at the Solentsky Museum in Southampton

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/corsairoz/SN200597.jpg

[Chris Roberts]

"Written Off " on 15/4/1955. It certainly was!!
I was a 15 year old ATC cadet passenger at the time, taking an experience (!) flight from RAF Detling. The Squadron Leader pilot (I shall not name him) got us too far downwind, and elected to land in a small sloping field. Unfortunately there was a wire fence, with concrete posts, stretched across the field and we went through it in a high nose-up attitude. The glider was sliced in two, just behind the cockpit. The front portion, with us in it, tumbled down the sloping field. We stepped out of the wreckage with only minor injuries.
Fortunately this event did not deter me from gliding, and I went on to do two very enjoyable years as a staff cadet at 621 GS, Weston-super-Mare & Halesland.

[621andy]

Only did an aerotow as passenger with Tony W at Mendips 40th? birthday do from Halesland, but bu99er me 10 minutes was plenty long enough... mind you, it was march which didn't exactly help.

Apparently, the trick is to use a bungy cord to hold the stick forward if you're going any distance:ok:

[cambioso]

Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
The secret is out!!
We used to aerotow Barges with the aid if a simple bungee cord with hooks on each end (the same that used to hold our satchels onto the back of our bikes).
Slip the hooks over the rudder pedals, and adjust the cord up (nose down) and down (nose up) the stick, and hey presto one could rub both hands together at length (to keep warm) whilst the bird flew in perfect (?!) trim......
I was wondering when that "wizard wheeze" was going to surface!
Memories, memories!
Jez.

[KeithChandler]

I have a VHS copy of a film made for the BBC of T21, T31 and T53 all being flown in the snow from 615VGS Kenley, its about 5mins long and set to the Beatles instrumental "Flying", there's only about 10 words spoken during the whole thing. I got my copy from the COI about 20 years ago, but the original must be late 60's or early 70's (whenever they were evaluating the T53).

I joned 615 in 1974 (I'm still there!) and remember the late Alex Watson, talking about how the camera crew were being flown in a Helicopter which failed to keep up during the launch and it had to take a run at it.

I will try to find a way of converting it to a digi file and hosting it somewhere

[Frelon]

Hi Keith

I remember it well and have been looking for a copy of the film - see my earlier posting here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/283866-quickest-brakes-off-1000-agl-4.html).

Would be good to see that on YouTube.

[Props]

Thanks WE992,
Did you attend Langley?

[WE992]

Props

Sadly not.

[Taps18456]

Dougie King!!!!!

Ex Typhoon pilot RAF and sent me solo at RAF Swanton Morley in Nov 1972. In later years he had a hand in the award of my A cat on wooden gliders before we converted to GRP. After he retired, he went on a cruise in the North Sea and there was a collision with a tanker of some sort during which a Briton, said the news, found himself transported from the cruise liner to the tanker with the force of the impact. Yup, it was Dougie!!!!

Unfortunately, although they both survived the impact Dougie's wife was quite badly injured and Dougie himself suffered from quite severe concussion. I guess he has passed on by now but I still have fond memories of the "skull on a stick" as some of his less appreciative students referred to him!!!

[Taps18456]

I remember Ian well. When I joined the ACO he was Chief Gliding INstructor at Swanton Morley and later Syerston. He and Lloyd Poulton used to have very entertaining exchanges (for the benefit of us students) and I learnt a lot from him. I remember him teaching me the gentle art of soaring in the Mk3. Absolute gentleman!!!!

I still fly having been the Sqdn Ldr ic of an Air Cadet Motor gliding school (Vigilants) and medically grounded by the RAF fior ACO flying am now chief grnd instructor and fly in the civilian world instructing on gliders and motor gliders. I always remember my early days and progression in Ian's world.

[Taps18456]

I remember it well including the beat-up. I remember Bill just wanted to do one loop himself and scrunched me up in the corner as he piled on the 'g'. He then handed over to me to do one whil upside down, and then let me do the beat-up. I also had the honour of captaining his last official flight in grp as well when he retired.

[KeithChandler]

Here's the video discussed earlier,

YouTube - COI Film Circa 1970 T53,T31 & T21 at 615VGS Kenley (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF8EOIh1Jfs)

Enjoy

[treadigraph]

Hello Keith, used to work with you in the Lansdowne Building!

[621andy]

Just found this too:

YouTube - 617 Gliding School (Manston) - Air Cadets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4eN9D5JC9o)

[kevmusic]

Bl99dy fantastic!! Bit before my time (the gliders were the wrong colour) but the air-ground footage just brought it all back - the Northern Grass, the black (1917) hangar. Brilliant! :ok:

[treadigraph]

The video of Kenley is great - I came to live in the area about 18 months later and it's interesting to see what it was like.

I've never seen a T-53 in the flesh and didn't know the Air Cadets had any, or indeed that Yorkshire Sailplanes or Slingsby built many of the type at all. Presumably a victim of the infamous fire (the one at Kirbymoorside, not the much later arson attack at Kenley). Must have made a welcome change from the draughty old Barges on a freezing winter's day though!

[Frelon]

Fortunately (or unfortunately) the T53 was only at Kenley for the one weekend, for the making of this film. Only a few instructors got to fly it whilst it was there and I remember one who threatened to throw his teddies out of the cot if he didn't get to fly it!! He is long gone now.

[KeithChandler]

Just for clarification and to stop the rumour mill kicking off, the fire at Kenley was not arson.
It was an accident, caused by the local ATC Sqn (450) being given permission to store news paper for charity collection in an anti-room off the unused side of the hanger where it was belived there was no electrical power, unfortunately this was not the case and a low level low out put anti-frost tube heater was still live.

The newspaper was stored over the whole flor area of the room to height of about 1.5M and it the covered the heater - the rest is obvious.

[treadigraph]

Ah, my apologies, somebody told me years ago that it had been arson, but I never saw the actual news reports at the time. 1980?

Sad in any case.

[asw28-866]

Destroyed a fine RF-5 as well!

[chevvron]

I remember Dougie King from my famil flights in the T53 (Halton about 1970). Dougie sat in the aircraft literally all day. On my flight, I quickly discovered it suffered from fearsome adverse yaw; not only did I have to use gobs of rudder to make it turn, but I could feel Dougies feet pressing into in my back every time he turned it.
As someone said earlier, it was Slingsby's answer to the Blanik which could not be purchased by MOD because it was built in an Iron Curtain country.

[Biggles of 266]

Has anybody got pictures of Kenley's Hangers before they burn't down? Or even pics of what was left?

Also I note that Kenly featured as a filming location for Torchwood the other day.

Guy

[chevvron]

Mention of VX 275 (Mrs Heppel) was interesting. When it was at Halton, after launch you could hear the wheel vibrating as it wound down; Honey Monster always said it was Mrs Heppel talking!
I had the dubious 'pleasure' of nearly writing her off. One evening I was doing AEG onto what is now runway 02 (unmarked in those days)and found myself with just a bit too much height to get rid of with spoilers AND spot land at the launch point, so I did a 'beat' not taking into account the northerly component of the wind. This 'blew' me south to a point where I realised I would be unable to get over the hangars back to the airfield, so I had to put her down in the small field just south of the main hangar site and in avoiding a herd of cows and a protruding tree stump, I touched a wingtip on the ground and ground looped her.
Apparently there was internal fuselage damage which would normally be Cat 5, but being a presentation aircraft she was sent back to Kirbymoorside and re-built.

[chevvron]

At 613, as well as VX275, we had Sedberghs XN150 and WB971, and could also call on XN149 and WB970 from the RAF Halton Glider Flight (established to give gliding experience to the sprogs/brats).
WB971 was a strange anomoly as it had no facility to fit a 'bomb' (ballast weight) in the nose for solo flying but this did not deter 'Jacko' the CO; he must have weighed over 16 st and occasionally flew '971 solo. Was '971 a 'one off' or did other Sedberghs lack this facility?

Edited to add WG496 was there too!

[Fitter2]

The Sedburghs at Kirton-Lindsey had no noseweight facility in 1959 when I did my A&B (in Cadet Mk3, of course).

As far as I recall they were a mod introduced in the '60s and retrofitted.

[lightbluefootprint]

Good to see XN246 is still around, although the aircraft seemed to be my nemesis when I was doing the old GS at 617. I'm pretty sure I used 246 for my first pre-solo check and I tried to impress the boss in the back by flying a nice high circuit drifting outwards on the base leg to lose some more height and then finding myself turning finals with way too much height. To paraphrase Air Clues - I learnt about flying from that!

246 did seem to be less comfortable to me, it was a bare wood seat in the front, and I hated flying in it and avoided it when I could.

[JW411]

The T21s at HCGIS Detling did not have facility to fit "the bullet" into the nose in 1955 nor did the T21s at 662 GS in 1957.

The T21 we had at Benson (RAFGSA Club) did not have the nose ballast mod in 1963 when I joined and students did their first solo in a Grunau Baby (with sometimes exciting results).

My best guess is that the nose ballast mod came along around 1965.

[chevvron]

Could be; I started at 613 in 1965 and all the barges apart from '971 had them.

[brokenlink]

Swanton Morely now the home of the Dragoons with (I think) recce AFV's.

[chevvron]

Found my old log book. We also had WB 938 at Halton.

[Fitter2]

Some of you may remember Tony, who was an instructor at one of the Lancashire VGS (Woodvale?) in the 60's. Later he went civilian soaring with the Inkpen and Lasham clubs, and was the UK Glasflugel agent 77 to 86.

Tont died on saturday 18th July after a long illness.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

From your description you must have trained on a Sunday 30 hours seems a long time to solo considering 635 had the best instructors?
Peter Leggett (Flt Lt) is still doing well as is Bryan Trunkfield (Bryan correctly spelt). 635 VGS (The S now stands for Squadron) is still in existance and operates now out of RAF Topcliffe.
The unit has had Four Commanding Officers
Flt Lt Bryan Trunkfield (Promoted to Sqn Ldr on Transfer to Bae Samlesbury).
Sqd Ldr Peter J McLachlan (Deputy OC at Burtonwood)
Sqd Ldr Jeff Woods (Staff Cadet at Burtonwood)
Sqd Ldr Will Taylor (Staff Cadet at Burtonwood) Current OC.
Total number of instructors and Staff Cadets since Start up approximatly 150.
Sedbergh (T21) XN 185 was at Burtonwood since it started and remained with the unit until it transferred to Samlesbury and converted to the Venture.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Tony Hanfrey was a staff cadet at 635 VGS RAF Burtonwood later given a commision as Technical Officer. Tony's claim to fame at Burtonwood was he repeatedly resigned only to return the following week after a very patient OC reinstated him. He was also a member of the FOGIES (Former Old Gliding Instructors Extension Society). He was very much liked and his death is a very sad loss.

[Neander]

As I am one of the owners of the old XE790 (now BGA4926/ KAA) and flying for 7 years with it in The Netherlands, I would like to know whether somebody has old pics from the XE790.
We are still flying around each year, made some soaring flights along the coast and landed on the beach. Made one x-country flight in Germany, but landed outfield. Longest flight till now, 2hours and 5 minutes!! Highest altitude 6100ft in thermals at Wesel (Germany) in 2004.
We bought this glider in 2001, overhauled it, replaced the winch hook and start flying with it since November 2002. In 2003 we made about 160 launches with it.
If some pics available, or nice stories about the XE790, please let me know!

Thanks in advance.

By the way, you can have a look on www.ezzc.nl/xe790 (http://www.ezzc.nl/xe790)

[l.garey]

I was prompted to go over this great thread again by yesterday's post from Holland. Thanks Neander. Excellent work on XE790.

I posted on 27/6/09 (#308) about my experience at Hawkinge, where I soloed on XA282 in 1958. It is now in the Caernarvon Museum I understand. In post 308 2sheds shows a photo of one of my instructors, Ron Whittenbury, at Swanton Morley. Did he serve at both places?

I have found no reference to XA282 being on strength at Hawkinge. In his listing in post 155, WE992 gives its history as:
105 GS, Cambridge. 626 GS. 635 GS, Burtonwood. CGMF Store, RAF Syerston. Sold.

Indeed Tiger mate (#133) says he soloed on it at Burtonwood. So how come I flew it at Hawkinge? Was it on detachment or something? Does anyone have its exact service history? Thanks

Laurence

[l.garey]

Further to my questions above, I just found this from "Flight"

1956 | 0492 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200492.html)

Doesn't answer me, but is of interest. I see in my logbook that Hawkinge was the HCGC No 1 in 1958.

Laurence

[603DX]

I did a course at 613 VGS at Halton in 1957 while in my school CCF, and qualified for the 'A' and 'B' certificates on T21B Slingsby 'Sedbergh' and T31 Kirby 'Cadet' Mk.3 types.

I have recently been enjoying powered flying lessons in Piper Warriors, and a lingering memory from that far-off gliding experience has been bugging me. In powered flight, a left turn needs left aileron bank plus left rudder, obviously. But I have this persistent recollection of being taught to use opposite rudder in banked turns in the gliders! Am I mad?

Through the mists of 52 years, I seem to remember being told that this was to reduce the height loss occurring during turns. I wonder whether this seemingly bizarre instruction had something to do with mitigating the effects of adverse yaw? Or would it make that worse? I'm confused.

Please, can someone put me right on this, it's beginning to bother me!

[longer ron]

I have recently been enjoying powered flying lessons in Piper Warriors, and a lingering memory from that far-off gliding experience has been bugging me. In powered flight, a left turn needs left aileron bank plus left rudder, obviously. But I have this persistent recollection of being taught to use opposite rudder in banked turns in the gliders! Am I mad?


perhaps you are thinking about slight opposite aileron to hold the desired bank angle once it has been achieved.

regards LR (613 1970-72)

[603DX]

Thanks, LR. No, it definitely wasn't that, it was rudder movement. Does anyone else remember being told to do this?

I know it doesn't make sense, but I'm fairly sure that I did give it a bit of opposite rudder in banked turns, both on the flights with instructor and on my solos. I'm still here to tell the tale, so obviously it didn't do much harm, but I'd love to know what was the rationale behind it!

[longer ron]

Hmmmm.... adverse yaw...wasnt that caused by pulling on one of the spoiler cables whilst sitting in the back of a Mk3 being flown by a staff cadet :ok:
Not that I ever did of course :E

Maybe we all put in a little opp rudder during a turn without realising it,but it could only be a little otherwise you would be sideslipping.
Thinking back 40yrs ...we were taught to initiate the turn inc using the rudder to overcome any adverse yaw but once established in the turn to centralise rudder input because you were no longer using ailerons ...however...once established in the turn you might be using a little opp aileron to maintain the desired bank angle so I suppose you might require a little top rudder to counteract a small amount of adverse yaw from 'holding off' the bank.
I do not remember being taught that but these things fairly quickly become natural inputs,my initial training was at Spitalgate ,maybe the training was more advanced in Bucks...or maybe I have a rotten memory LOL

cheers LR

[603DX]

Thanks again, LR.

I'm still unsure. One thought occurs to me, that perhaps putting on a bit of opposite rudder when established in the banked turn mobilises the available stabilising effect of the very slab-sided fuselage of the Cadet, so the rudder is virtually acting as a 'trim tab' and reducing the sideslip and height loss. This unlikely-sounding effect, if it occurs, would certainly never be able to act if the glider were an EoN Primary, which has almost non-existent side area of the fuselage!

It makes you think, doesn't it? Any other contributions to this retro look at what we all did without thinking too much about it, in those wood-and-fabric contraptions?

[JEM60]

Here is an interesting aerodynamic one. When I was a staff cadet on 613 many years ago, I flew one of the last flights of the C.O.S/L Purchase???
We were winched up in XN150, and he requested I did a spin. Well, usual input, pull up, full left rudder as it stalls, and round it very leisurely wallowed. We landed, and he said we'll do it again, but watch. We winched, he pulled up to the stall, just before, full left rudder, and then he applied full RIGHT aileron!!. Boy, did that spin sharply to the left.!!!!!!
We discussed on the ground, and then I got it!!. If you are wanting to spin to the left, then by applying right aileron moves the left aileron down at the point of the stall. Sudden increased A.O.A on the left wing, which then stalled VERY smartly!!!. There was a very good lesson here. I went on to PPL flying 17 years later, and never forgot the lesson that trying to pick up a wing, at very low speeds, with aileron alone can have VERY serious consequences!!!!. Fly safe out there!!.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

This was taught in the cadet MKIII before spoilers where fitted.
Commonly known as side sliping. Used by most instructors to avoid the treck back to the launch point (pre gliding retreive trolley days)

[603DX]

Burtonwood Aviator:

Thanks, this sounds a bit more likely! The Mk III's in 1957 definitely didn't have spoilers fitted, and the simple checklist CISTRS (controls-instruments
-spoilers-trim-release-straps) wasn't valid for spoilers, it was only on the Sedberghs that you had them to check.

It also suggests another possible reason for us being told to put on a bit of opposite rudder in turns - to shorten our time in the air and get more launches in! There were quite a few of us on the course, and what with weather delays etc., it must have been a bit tight to get us all qualified for the 'A' and 'B' certs within the week.

I must admit I still have a lingering memory of being told the opposite rudder was to reduce height lost in turns, so I'm not 100% convinced, but your explanation of sideslipping to lose height as a substitute for spoilers seems a good one.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

I seem to recall that whilst at Burtonwood the cadet MKIII in question (XA282) tried to mate with another MKIII

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Side slipping is the only explanation to induce rapid loss of height used on many an occasion by myself.
Once spoilers where fitted one could lose height rapidly by operating the spoilers without the students knowledge by pulling the cables situated to the rear and left of the rear seat instructor.
This operation was used mainly for the overconfident pupil or instructors under training to let them know how MKIII's could bite if you strayed too far from the circuit.

[l.garey]

Thanks Burtonwood. Any idea why XA282 was at Hawkinge then?
Were their gliders taken from other schools on rotation or something?
Was it rebuilt to go to the Caernarvon museum?
And anyone know about Ron Whittenbury (see my post #350 on 8/8/09)?

Laurence

[chevvron]

Adverse yaw is caused when there is insufficient keel area on an aircraft. Think about it; apply aileron for a left turn; the right aileron goes down increasing drag, the left goes up reducing drag, hence the aircraft will intially tend to yaw right until you add a bootfull of rudder to counteract it. Most marked on the ill fated T53 which never entered service with Air Cadets.

[Dave Gittins]

What a rivetting thread.

I first soloed at Burtonwood in 1969 or 1970 at the start of a long and less than illustrious career in aviation that sees me now in Doha bulding a new airport with 250 hrs in my book and still flying as a PPL on PA-28s and C 172s.

I regrettably cannot remember a soul that was at Burtonwood when I flew in the cold, cold winter of 1969 / 70. The main things I remember were that

a) my feet were always too cold to feel the rudder pedals
b) the bit of red string on the pitot more often than not was at 45 degrees to the direction we were meant to go in, and
c) the "boss" of my ATC squadron in Warrington was Steve Briggs.

I knew Will Taylor when we worked together in Warrington many years ago and I have just discovered the 635 Sqd website and sent him a "hello"

Cor the nostalgia

[longer ron]

Chevvron
Sorry to dispute with a fellow ex 613er
Surely the primary cause of adverse yaw is lack of sufficient 'differential' on the aileron range of movement,thereby being caused by the excess drag of the downgoing aileron.
On an aircraft with good differential ailerons the adverse yaw tendancy should be greatly reduced.

regards LR

[kevmusic]

The downgoing aileron enters an airflow of higher pressure than the upgoing one (a la Bernoulli effect), so you'd need an upgoing aileron the size of a barn door to balance the drag forces! :)

[longer ron]

Its not rocket science...differential ailerons have been on aircraft since the 30's at least.
Either the type where the upgoing one is geared to move approx double the downgoing angle.
Or the frise type where the hinge line is inset so that the nose of the upgoing aileron sticks out into the airflow thereby causing drag to equalise with the downgoing aileron

cheers LR

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Following discussion with my erstwhile colleague who is much more knowledgeable than I on these matters, it was determined that : -
Hawkinge was known as Home Command Gliding Instructors School following relocation from RAF Detling later transferring and splitting to No 1 Gliding Centre (RAF Swanton Morley - Ian Ladley CFI) and No2 Gliding Centre (RAF Kirton in Lindsey - Jack Oliver CFI).
XA 282 is now hanging from the Caernarfon museum roof in Wales why at Hawkinge as yet unknown.
Ron Whittenbury famous for his home made toffee, unfortunately found ill favour with his peers after running over a glider wing with a land rover, thus leaving the Air Cadet Organisation, whereabouts now unknown.

[l.garey]

Thanks Burtonwood. I never got any toffee though.

Laurence

[Atcham Tower]

Just found this great thread. Jim Chaplin ex-Sealand passed on maybe 15 years ago, and had once flown Corsairs with The Fleet Air Arm. He was my art master at school and he almost forgave my lack of ability in this subject because of my obsession with aviation. Another Sealand instructor and long term friend of mine was Dr Atholl Duncan, also sadly missed.

[Hyperborean]

Would that be the Dr. who diagnosed me with pharyngitis one Sunday. I turned up for my weekly attendance at the gliding course feeling decidedly not like flying, he sent me home with the explanation that it was like laryngitis, or as he said, " Same dog, different tail." Happy days.

[chevvron]

Its just come to my attention that the CFIs of both powered fixed wing schools at Wycombe are ex 613 instructors, while one other is a national gliding coach and yet another runs an operation involving Tiger Moths.

[alanfereday]

Just joined with a few facts to get things going.

Triggered by a nostalgia trip to Halesland a few days ago. First visit in 50 years. Took a few photos. I must say that the site appears to be on very good order, presumbaly to the credit of the Mendip Gliding Club. I must re-visit on a flying day.

My log book suggests that I was gliding with the CCF (School 634 based at Exeter) from around mid 1957 to mid 1960.

Achieved A & B at Exeter August 1958.

Attended a course at St Athans (intended to be C but my CO forgot to check!). Got a week's gliding in though.

Attended a C course at Halesland but Easter snow put paid to that. I remember even the Bedfords getting stuck to be rescued by a couple of Land Rovers sent up from RAF Locking.

Flew mainly Sedburghs and Mk IIIs but also the single seat (Prefect?).

Nearly came to grief at Halesland in the single seat when the cable failed to release so was still attached as the winch operator went to full chat. Finally broke free losing some of the underside. I do remember being lifted still shaking and plonked in another glider before I had time to dwell on the incident. It appeared to be a well reheared incident although I cannot imagine it happened very often.

Unfortunately, I do not have any photos so if anyone out there can oblige I would be extremely grateful. Just remembered that I do have a group photo of my Halesland course taken at Weston.

Summer camps attended included Lindholme and Upwood. Visits included Chivenor and Colerne (sat in P7350 when no one was looking. ME 163 and two seat FW190 were in the same hangar).

Serial numbers in my "spotters" notebook include:-

Sedburgh WB944, WB927, WB950, WB991, WB943, WB943, WB980, WB929, WB967.

MkIII WT870, XE192, XA290, WT874, WT875, XA286, XE187, XA286, XE786, WT899, WT900, XA295, WT902.

Prefect WE990, WE983.

I obviousy did not fly in all of the above. Unfortunately, I cannot find a record of those that I did or where they were located.

As an aside to all this gliding talk, did anybody come across an immaculate Beaufighter parked at St Athans? Serial number was SR914. Where is it now? I would have had a fantastic photo but was caught red handed, trundled off by the MPs and had my film confiscated. Any images without buildings or facilities were eventually developed and sent to me.

Hopefully that is enough to get things underway.

[POBJOY]

Frelon are your initials MT !!

[Biggles of 266]

Bump!

Come on chaps
Where are all those pictures of Mk3's and T21's
Everybody's waiting for the one we went solo in!

Dig them out.
Guy

[norwich]

Having looked into this thread on several occasions, and felt the interest you people have for these machines I was happy to see these two gliders at Shipdham Charity Airshow on Sunday last, I wonder if they may be of interest to you ? I know nothing of gliding or gliders and rather hope they are of the era you are discussing and that they are genuine, not 'replicas' ?

A Few photos to enjoy (I hope).

Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/shipdham/DSC_0006.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/shipdham/DSC_0007.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/shipdham/DSC_0008.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/shipdham/DSC_0009.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/shipdham/DSC_0012.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/shipdham/DSC_0013.jpg

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/shipdham/DSC_0014.jpg

[Dan Winterland]

They look real enough to me! WB975 also has a BGA registration which tells me it's still flying. WB 975 was also the subject of the 'Squadron Print' of an Air Cadets glider and is the very first entry in any of my logbooks when I took my first ever flight in her in 1979 at HMS Condor, Arbroath.

[Con Air]

Great thread !

I was in the Air Cadets and did a gliding course. In fact I did two - one at RAF Syerston and another at RAF Debden. (1970's)

I eventually soloed in either a T21 or T Mk1111 ?

Anyway - I'm off to the loft now to try and dig out my old 3822 to find out more detail. Hopefully should have a few serial numbers of what I flew, maybe even a few pics?

[Con Air]

WE 992

Back from the loft with 3822 in hand.....

Reading through your posts - #156, #215, #217 you mention XE 807, XE 810 and WB 972. I flew these at RAF Debden - fond memories.

Interestingly, you also mention WB 988 (a T21) was written off on 29/4/64. My log book shows I flew this a/c on 26/10/75 at RAF Debden. Obviously she came back from the grave !

Would that be usual for a glider to be classified as written off, then rebuilt. This can be the case for cars obviously, if the insurance company deems them as being beyond economic repair?

Con Air

[chevvron]

Well VX 275 was technically written off (Cat 5) by me then re-built by Slingsbys, so it's not unheard of.
Flew Prefects '993 and '987 at Halton in the '60s .

[Geezers of Nazareth]

If anybody has 'the urge', there is a 'Slingsby T31' for sale on Ebay at the moment; sale closes Weds 7th. As far as I can tell, it's XN198, based (currently) in Devon.

[Con Air]

Re your post #349. You've got some really great photos there of XE 790. It's great to see her still flying. Do you have some more of the cockpit.

I flew in XE 790 twice when I was in the Air Cadets. The first on 26/10/1975 and the second on 16/1/1976.

Both flights were at RAF Debden and only lasted 4 minutes each!

The instructor was a Mr Thompson (no other details).

I managed to find two old photos of MK3's. One is of XE 798 in the old silver / yellow colours. The second is of a MK3 with the red / white / black colour scheme - the same as in your photos. However, my photo doesn't show any markings.

There is snow on the ground, so the only date (according to my log book) that this could have been taken would have been 16/1/1976 as all my other flights were during the warmer months. I can't make out either, if I'm in the aircraft and some one took it for me, or if I have taken it of someone else.

Unfortunately the quality isn't too good, but here it is. I'm hoping (and expect)this is XE 790 but can't be sure.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_TDqwtoQy7Wo/SsuVHalz50I/AAAAAAAAAF8/DG8dXzHpyf0/s128/T%20mk3.jpg

regards Con Air

[Biggles of 266]

Norwich

Your great pictures disappeared in post 376# any chance we could have them back?

Here are a couple of T21 XN157, taken recently at The Long Mynd. Midland Gliding Club.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2571/3942778658_410909155d.jpg

and

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2456/3970267504_86f9e420cb.jpg
Guy

[norwich]

Yes sorry about the photos, I seem to have overstepped the monthly limit on my photo bucket acc ! all should be restored on the 10th of the month.

Keith.

[Christonks]

The Pilots that you mentioned above at 631GS were Bill Tyson, Dave Westaway and the CO was Pat Walton Smith.
I too was at 631GS at about the same time so would you mind if I sent you and e-mail to see if we were there together.
Chris.

[Christonks]

Hi
I happen to have one of the original stencil drawings for the T31 if that will help.

Shows all of the lettering and stencil sizes.
Drop me a line if you want to borrow it.

Chris.

[Christonks]

I have a few pics of WB981 whe she was at 631GS Sealand.
If you want them let me know.

All the best.
Chris.

[Christonks]

For those interested, here are a couple of pioctures of the T21 that I restored a few years ago. Now residing in Germany I believe.
Ironically, my next project is a 1939 Grunau 11b.
1 CofA before first post restoration flight. My old 631 GS instructor, Bill Tyson is on the right.
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/BGA782010FIRSTCofA.jpg
2 First flight.
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/BGA782013FIRSTPOSTRESTORATIONFLIGHT.jpg
3 Vintage glider meeting at Sutton Bank.
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/BGA782019VGCMEETINGATSUTTONBANK.jpg
4 Final picture shows the T21 in flight.
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/001.jpg
Hope you like them.
Chris.

[Biggles of 266]

Chris,
She looks beautiful, can you identify the T21, for the sake of those who might have flown her?
Guy

[Christonks]

Hi Guy.
Civilian built and operated throughout her entire life so no military serial number.

Chris

[D120A]

Wonderful fabric work and colour scheme. Wish I had seen it for real.

[Christonks]

Thank you.
The current owners have painted the cockpit interior white :yuk:

[Christonks]

As requested by Al.
Here are a few pictures of WB981 taken at 631GS.
Sorry about the quality.
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/File0370.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/File0371.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/File0373.jpg
http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p442/ChrisTonks5033/File0374.jpg
I would like to see any other 631GS pictures from the early 70's if anyone can help.

Chris

[7of9]

Great photo's of the Barge.

I haven't flown in one since 1981 at Lindholm Nr Doncaster when the air cadets shared the airfield with us at Humber Gliding Club.

Great to fy in & i never got to fly one SOLO which is what i always wanted to do.

Keep the photo's coming.

Trev

[WE992]

Great to see some photos of WB981.

A current photo of her in flight at Keevil can be found at:

www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1071965 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1071965)

[Christonks]

Al.
Please check your messages.
Chris.

[7of9]

Any chance of having a flight in the Barge then Al????

You seen Civ recently??

[mystic_meg]

My old 631 GS instructor, Bill Tyson is on the right
Blimey, that takes me back a bit!! Solo'd at Sealand many, many years ago after a L-O-N-G course, due in part to flooding of the field for several weeks. Flew with Bill on several trips, including one where we were, ahem, above cloud and watched a BAC 1-11 (I think) pass underneath us... :eek:
Did a lot of my flying in WB 989 - my instructor was, (IIRC) called Geoff (Jeff?) and rode a motorbike wearing an RAF bonedome!!
Bill was a lovely bloke, unlike some "I'm-very-important" jobsworth of a bloke who made a lot of noise and strutted around in his second-hand flying suit shouting at us all day!
Happy days!

[Christonks]

Hi Mystic Meg.
The chaps you mentioned are probably Geoff Nuttall who I believe is still flying B757s. and Bill Grey.

Have you any 631GS pictures to post?

Regards.

Chris.

[VX275]

I have inocent memories of soaring into cloud with Pat Walton-Smith only for me to point out that there was another glider beneath us. My reply to Pats question of "how close?" was "About 6 feet Sir" :\.
Other than Pat and Jim Chaplin the only other Instructor I remember from Sealand was the late Les Rees who was the first instructor I bumped into at RAF Benson when I started with 612. I still hold the 20 minute soaring flight in a Mk3 I had with Les as the most outstanding feat of aviation I've ever been involved with. :D

[J1N]

Nice to see Sealand getting a mention.

We must all have been at Sealand around the same time - 1972-73 in my case. I have posted a very grainy photo of my first solo in this thread - post #53.

I remember the instructors named above: Westaway was my instructor, Walton-Smith sent me solo. This was the first solo for some time at 631 since there was a temporary restriction on solo flying, I think something to do with ballast weights.

I always regarded WB993 as "my" Sedbergh, although I solo'd on WB927. XN157 is another serial I remember. We had one Mark 3, and I remember a single seater (Prefect?) at Sealand for a short period. All gliders were finished in silver/dayglo, before the red/white/black scheme.

I remember soaring in thermals over John Summers, seeing the Dee bore from the air, rounding up sheep in Landrovers and so on. Happy days!

[Christonks]

Sorry, but 993 was MINE!!!!!!!!! LOL

Chris.

[WE992]

7 of 9

You are always welcome to come and fly the Barge. I still have the Prefect and a MK3

And yes I see the 'Gash one' almost every other weekend.

[VX275]

J1N I've just checked my 3822 and we could well have crossed paths. My first glider flight (MkIII XE791) was at Burtonwood in October 71 with my picture featuring in the Manchester Evening News - trying to smile whilst scared stiff; the landing was also pictured and the toothy grin remains with me to this day.
I got to Sealand in August 72 and went straight from ppt to prof on Sedburghs WB993, WB989, XN157, XN185 with first solo of three on 185 on the 24th Aug. I had one AEF trip in March 73 and I must have asked about an advanced course because I started that in May and did the last of my 10 solos on the 10th of June.
I remember well the sheep round ups, the Dee bore and especially the lift from Summers steel works, if only for the fact that my solos were usually flown with spoilers out from the top of the launch:\

Having moved south I joined 612 at Benson and by the time we converted to the Venture I'd reached the dizzy heights of G1 and my total time on Sedburghs and Mk 3 was exactly 24 hours.

[Christonks]

Does anyone remember Alan Mossman, Brendan Roscoe, Chris Tonks and Dave Mintey.
We were all at 631GS at the same time.

Chris.

[J1N]

VX275 - I cannot currently find my 3822 to confirm dates but on reflection I would have gone solo in early 74, hence most of my instruction would have been mid to late 73. The serials WB989 and XN185 also trigger memories - the five gliders we have listed must have been the whole Sealand T21 fleet at that time.

Chris - I remember Roscoe, who was a staff cadet at Sealand, mostly because he was from Chester ATC squadron to which a school friend also belonged. Mintey rings a bell, and I can't remember Mossman or yourself - sorry! I'm sure a few more anecdotes would reawaken the memory cells.

A few other names from my squadron (2193 Prestatyn) who were on courses at Sealand around this time: Peter Burns, Atherton (can't remember first name) and Dave Close. The first two subsequently joined the RAF.

[Dave Gittins]

VX 275 .. I would have been at Burtonwood a while before you in (probably) the winter of 69 - 70 but my 3822 is long gone. I cannot remember a single name or face .. do you have any from your time that might jog my memory ?

I was in 1330 ATC sqn in Warrington.

My other recollection from that time was an Air-Ex flight in a Chipmunk at Woodvale. All I remember is that it was a pretty murky day with lousy vis and I couldn't see forwards for the pilots head.

DGG

[chevvron]

VX275 - I though I Cat 5'd you back in 1966; must be mistaken.
I was doing AEG at Halton one evening - I was a P2 grade now known as G1; the instructor i/c (now one of the top gliding coaches in the country) told me if I overshot the launch point I'd have to pull it back myself; well in my efforts to spot land , I managed to land in the field next to the airfield (last one on the right coming from the main camp) and they assessed the damage (visibly just a broken main skid) as Cat 5. They took the aircraft back to Slingsby's where it was rebuilt.

[VX275]

I only went to Burtonwood once but it must have been a good day as I had 5 launches split between a Mr Beaver and a Flt Lt Jones.

As to using Mrs Hepple (VX275 had been presented by a lady of that name) as my identity, being into old aircraft I held out to use her to take my first passenger when I got my G1 just because she was the oldest barge in the cadets (albeit written off at least twice). I still hold her dear to my heart and would like to get to the RAF museum's store at Stafford to say hello to her again.
As to my first G1 flight I remember it as being a 25 minute flight, soaring around a stubble fire, which I only came out of, having had what looked like a bale of flaming straw pass close to the wing. I was then, and remain, a devout coward and I considered that fire and doped fabric were best kept apart.

Its thirty years ago now but those two years of conventional ops at Benson have many memories which I might get around to describing. They are mostly related to Operation Blue Goshawk, HRH Prince Edward's proficiency course and revolve around a mutiny and a suspected kidnapping of the prince.:eek:

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Re your Burtonwood Query The people you refer to where Henry Beaver and Ian Jones Later to Become Wing Commander Jones of Merseyside Wing.
Also you may recall at that time
Flt Lt Bryan Trunkfield Officer Commanding
Flt Lt Peter McLachlan Deputy Officer Commanding and Equipment Officer
Flg Off Tony Williams CFI
Flg Officer Alan Howard Deputy CFI
Flg Off John Manny Adjutant
Civ Inst Ron (Surname escapes me)Technical Officer
Civ Inst Cyril Colman Ex 631 Sealand
Civ Inst Tony Hanfry
There have been many other Instructors but not Necessarily at the time you refer to

Hope this helps

[mystic_meg]

Have you any 631GS pictures to post?

Sadly, no. I did my gliding course in 76/77 (will check 3822 later...) I seemed to do a lot in WB989. I even had a balaclava and ski goggles to wear too :O - it could get quite cold in the open cockpit of the barge!

[DGAC]

Bob Fowler was instructing at Burtonwood around 1961-64

[Burtonwood Aviator]

correct in fact Bob Fowler came over from 631 then located at Harwarden with BHT and Bill Ravenscroft. He took the post of CFI for a few years before entering the RAF ending up as a Group Captain, Station Comander at RAF Chivenor (Now closed).
Two of the unit's Cadet MKII's at that time Feb 1960 where XN248 :rolleyes:& XN244

[BernieS]

I've just stumbled across this thread courtesy of a Google search for images of WB927.

I solo'ed at Sealand sometime in the Summer of '69 - I can't currently lay my hands on my 3822 so can't confirm the date.

I was a cadet with 273 (Wallasey) Squadron, and I recall that there were a few of us there together. Bill Tyson is a name that I remember - I flew with him several times before being sent off on my own in WB927.

I remember well soaring in the foul-smelling (but hot!) chimney fumes from John Summers, and looking down on the traffic queues.

Back in '94 I was flying at Dunstable, and there was a consortium there who owned a "Barge" - still in red & white with roundels and registration markings. I talked my way into getting a flight in her, although sadly I can't remember the registration. I do recall however, several pilots who owned modern, carbon fibre gliders expressing considerable surprise at the soaring qualities of the old T21.

When talking over the radio to the winch we had to be very careful to ensure that the driver understood that it was a "T21" on the end of the cable, and not one of the club "K21s". If they had tried to launch the barge at K21 velocity it would probably taken the wings off!!! :)

Just read through this thread from the beginning - some fascinating stuff, that Pathe film certainly took me back even if it was shot slightly before my era. I remember turning up at Sealand on my first Saturday and being greeted with the sight of a pile of wreckage in one corner of "A" hangar - we were told that it was from a student who had spun in on his first solo. I also recall that whilst I was there another cadet from 273 Squadron deliberately stalled the Barge on his down wind leg - all Hell broke loose when he landed!

Most of my flights were in the T21, I think I only did one in the "Flying Brick" and I was shocked by the lack of performance - a significantly lower height on the launch and a greatly inferior glide rate resulted in a much shorter flight.

I didn't know that Ian Jones went on to become WingCo of Merseyside wing - I assume that he replaced Peter Vine, who was Squadron Leader of 273 when I joined. A wonderful gentleman with a superb Handlebar moustache.

I actually worked with Ian Jones at a certain pharmacuetical company based at Moreton on the Wirral - as far as I recall he was something to do with Export whilst I was in IT.

Happy Days!!!

Bernie

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I always regarded WB993 as "my" Sedbergh, although I solo'd on WB927.

You're probably right; because '927 was mine. Between 4 NOV 68 (with F/O Price) and 13 APR 69 (5 launches with J Chaplin, 2 launches with K Higgins (A Check) and 3 launches with me PiC (11 Mins, 6 Mins, 6Mins)) she was the only Sedburgh I flew. I flew the Cadet MK3 (XA284) once (well, 5 launches) and loved it.

From 8 DEC 68, I was a "Sunday boy" flying with A Williams, J Chaplin, R Capewell, P Eyes and K Higgins.

[kellyoldsmunt]

great to read these posts, happy days.
I remember watching the gliding at RAF Hendon in the mid 60's, joined the cadets in 1969, 14F squadron at RAF Northolt, we did our gliding at Henlow and then I solo'd at west Malling in the flying brick on my 16th birthday 1972 with 618 gliding school.. I remember an old Ambassidor parked next to the control tower, but only got one flght in the T21. does anyone else remember these airfields? must try to find my old log book.:ok:

[J1N]

Did the ex-631 guys on here see the thread about Sealand South Camp being closed and sold? Apparently unsucessful efforts were made to list some of the hangers: would these be the large hangers where the gliders used to be kept or the strange curved-roof ones covered in grass?

I guess it will turn into a retail park...

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/392555-raf-sealand.html

[mystic_meg]

I seemed to do a lot in WB989
I wasn't wrong - for a total of 57 launches, 22 were done in '989, 17 in WB946, 11 in WB927 and 7 in XN157! I first went to Sealand on 6 Dec 75 and did 2 launches in '989 as air experience (Mason was in the other seat,) and my course proper didn't start until 15 Jan 77, lasting until 6 Aug 77. (As mentioned earlier, the field was flooded for a long time between these 2 dates, hence no flying.) My Instructor appears to have been Argent (sorry, no first names.. Jeff? Geoff?) and I also flew with Bill Tyson, Smith, Hurst, Hignett and had 2 pre-solo checks with Dickinson. XN157 IIRC was the only T21 at Sealand painted in the red and white scheme at that time. I too remember 'timing' a launch with Bill T. to coincide with the release of the steam/smoke from Shotton steelworks - might have been the time we had a BAC 1-11 go underneath us! :uhoh:
Happy days indeed. :)

[621andy]

Dropped in on 621 again last week...

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/b2.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/b10.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/b11.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/b13.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/b14.jpg

[621andy]

To keep up the vintage theme, they use an old barrage balloon winch...you never forget how to drive one:ok:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/hull1.jpg

WE992s XA310, which spent most of its life with 621;

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/t1.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/t3.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/t5.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/t8.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/t10.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/t11.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg244/621andy/t14.jpg

[Christonks]

Thanks for posting the pictures Andy.
Chris.

[Dan Winterland]

Great pictures Andy. Especially of the Wild Winch! Brings back memories of being the MT member at FGC. God knows how many hours I spent working on our two.

I see this one has the narrow drum conversion, The originals had the wide drums and the phospher bronze scroll gears as per the original 1940 specification. Of course, barrage ballons weren't designed to be launched and recovered vertically at 60 knots, so the orignal winches had a few problems launching gliders! The narrow drums were better but had the nasty habit of shooting small pieces of cable at you if the cable broke in front of the rollers. I still have a scar on my chin from a Wild winch.




Sad isn't it. Reminiscing about winches!

[JW411]

When I joined the RAFGSA in 1963 we had two Wild winches in the club still complete with the original Ford V8 petrol engines. We eventually managed to squeeze BMC 5.6 diesels into them. The big weak point was indeed the phosphor bronze scroll bar. Every time they got damaged and when heat was applied during the healing process, they became more and more banana like and therefore failed faster and faster.

New ones were impossible to sources until one day, one of our elder members discovered that the scroll bar was exactly the same as that to be found in wartime invasion barges and managed to get his hands on half a dozen still in the greasy wrappings from a scrappie in Bedfordshire.

What a discovery!

[Arclite01]

Speechless

The Wilde Winches on VGS weren't from Barrage balloons - they were purpose made winches for the VGS and actually called Eagle winches.

The wilde winch gets it's name from the Wilde scroll gears that feed the cable across the drums as far as I am aware (Wilde being the guy who designed it I think)

Arc

[621andy]

To clear this up, the VGS winches were Eagle twin drum winches with scroll gear.

The winch in the pic came from the GSA(not sure which club) and as far as I'm aware was always a single drum jobby. It's rumured to have been converted from a barrage balloon winch.

Incidentally, I found a job lot of rollers in a wire cage at Shepards surplus near Leominster years ago, but didn't know anyone with a winch to suit them so left them there..:ugh:

[7of9]

The winch in the pic came from the GSA(not sure which club) and as far as I'm aware was always a single drum jobby. It's rumured to have been converted from a barrage balloon winch.

Looks like the one we had at Humber Gliding Club RAF GSA at Lindholme & Scampton in the Eighties, i used top drive that a lot & enjoyed it except when the cable broke, trying to untangle the mess afterwards.
I ended up with very fast reactions to save untangling it.

Trev

[chevvron]

At Halton in the mid 60s, 613 had 3 twin drum Wildes with 6 cyl Bedford petrol engines (same as in RAF Bedford coaches) plus the RAF Halton Glider Flight had two single drum Wildes which had metal plates saying they were ballooon winches and which had sidevalve (flathead) Ford V-8s. These winches were often shared between the two gliding operations as were the aircraft. This gave a total of 8 cables if all winches were 'S', hence if there was a week long course in progress, at weekends we would operate 2 separate launch points each with 4 cables; one for the course and the other for AEG plus any weekend proficiency cadets. As only one cable could be used at a time, only one winch driver per line was required, jumping backwards and forwards between winches. The Landrovers used for cable recovery easily coped with 4 cables, but if one cable fell off due to the 'weak link' breaking, it invariably wrapped itself round the adjacent cable, and that could take hours to sort out!!
Incidentally, I notice that XA310 is being flown solo without a ballast weight in the tail.

[JEM60]

613 had the balloon winches first, 'cos, as a 17 year old Staff Cadet, it was my job to DI them and tow them out to their launch positions.
Well known to me, as I had winch failure on my first solo at about 350 feet. 'S' turned it to a safe touchdown, but it sure got my attention!!!
The twin drum ones were just coming in when I left, but I remember good times with the Duncombe twins, Jacko Jackson, Phil Plows, Ken Bayliss et al. Great days.

[Frelon]

621andy and Arclite01

The twin drum Eagle winches (with Bedford engines) were introduced to the Air Cadet organisation in the late 50s/early 60s. Before our twin drum winches arrived our gliding school (not VGS in those days) had three single drum Wild winches, with Ford V8 engines, which were renowned for fan blades flying off at full throttle! What a sight and what a sound!

It was a pity to see them go!!!

[chevvron]

JEM60: I remember all the names you mention, plus others like Fred Fermor and Pete Knapman.
Mike Duncombe; did my first three flights (local area, primary effects, further effects)
Paul Duncombe; my final day did some revision, then handed me over to:
Jacko; who checked me out for first solo.
Phil Plows; I was winch driving one day and was sent to the launch point to fly; Phil was in charge and said 'I won't bother with a check ride, as far as I'm concerned you're a P1 as from now'.
Ken Bayliss; did 5 trips with him in a Sedburgh one day in very gusty weather; after every trip I was hoping he'd take someone else; after the 5th one he told me to stay in as usual (we always tried to spot land) then came back with a Mk3 solo weight and a very small cadet and said 'nice safe flying in these conditions, so now you can take your first air experience cadet'!

I joined 613 as a Staff cadet in late '64 having just completed my proficiency course; I well remember DI-ing the winches then towing them out; I even managed to jacknife one by towing it with a Landrover and doing a rather tight turn when its inertia took over.

[JW411]

Dan Winterland:

You do not know what you have started!

I am interested in the references to "Wilde" winches which have crept into the conversation (as opposed to the "Wild" winches that we had in the RAFGSA. Perhaps the Air Cadets organisation were a bit posher than we were and so were therefore entitled to have an "e" on the end of "Wild".

Our Wild winches were definitely single drum ex-balloon winches. One was originally mounted on a Bedford QL chassis (later we swopped it on to a wartime Austin chassis) and the other was on a 1940s Bedford chassis.

I have just been on a website (Welcome to the Balloon Barrage Reunion Club Website (http://www.bbrclub.org)) which tells me that the "Wild" winch unit was made by M.B.Wild & Co of Birmingham who were still in business in the 1980s.

It also tells me that said company made a 4-wheel trailer winch called an "Eagle" trailer.

I hope that answers a few questions.

[Dan Winterland]

I remember that the FGC Wild winches had a plaque bolted to the cage somewhere which said M.B Wild, Birmingham and it had a picture of a barrage balloon on it. You can just make it out it in this picture I found on a website about barrage balloons.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/winch20external20bollard.jpg


Sorry about the thread creep!

[Tiger_mate]

Using a theory that crap photos are just better then no photos, here are some that date from September 1977 during a detachment of 635 VGS to Halesland, Cheddar Gorge. I was a Staff Cadet, and it was 1 month before I joined the RAF. 32 years later (Anniversary today!) I am still in!
1) First the chariot (Austin) that pulled the winch up the hill, and if I recall, was the source of much fun to drive with a crash gearbox and slippy terrain.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3513/4041526627_a63ec4b42e_o.jpg
2) Launch site, and although a small and poor photo, I believe it to be Alan Howard (CFI) looking this way.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2611/4042272758_e643e3fc1c_o.jpg
3) Will Taylor (now OC 635) and John McCoy (Staff Cdt) along with Cadets from Manchester Wg with Sedburgh WJ308.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2489/4041527277_09e5657ffc_o.jpg
4) Will Taylor flies Swallow XT653 at the end of the day.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/4041527057_ffd54e8622_o.jpg

These photos originated from a tiny camera (110 film) and my scanner picked up the grain of the print so I am unable to make them any better. Nevertheless, hopefully they may ring the nostalgia bell in some.
Regards

[nacluv]

This thread has been a pleasure to read over the last however long. Brought back some cracking memories! My gliding was all done in Barges, as I recall, and we flew from Scampton, Lindholme and even Kirton-in-Lindsey I believe. Happy days!

Talking of winches, I seem to remember that Humber Club-type winch, and the dates would tie up, but I also remember one which was installed in an old Routemaster double-decker bus. Was that the one at Kirton?

If I could only find my old 3822...

[7of9]

Humber Gliding Club Winch at Scampton in 1986. This was the one we called "SYD":ok:
That's my Missus Gill by the wheel looking bored, she was my Fiancée then Been married to her 22 years now.................

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b106/kirksandall/TheWinch.jpg

Trev:):)

[Dan Winterland]

Not a good place to sit. She obviously didn't know that the rear driver's side wheel was the favourite place to pee for winchdrivers needing relief!

And a wife bored by standing around on a cold airfield all day? I met Mrs W at 4CGC when she was a glider pilot so she couldn't really complain!

[astir 8]

Tiger Mate

Re your excellent photos, are you sure that Sedbergh is WJ 308, not 306? I can see that it looks like 308 on the photo but

a) according to the UK Serials website, WJ 308 was never issued
b) WJ 306 was based at Halesland in the late 70's
c) 306 was the only WJ serial Sedbergh, having been ordered as a single (replacement?) unit in late 1950

I'm not asking the question for totally nerd-like reasons. I'm still flying WJ306 (at Oxford Gliding Club) but it's in the later red/white air cadets scheme (she passed through St Athan for refurbishment in 1980)

However assuming your picture is 306, it's the first one I've seen of her in silver/dayglo bands, so ta ever so for that. :ok:

Any chance you could email a copy of those photos 'cos printing it off PPrune chops the nose off? I'll pm my address

[Tiger_mate]

PM sent.

I have since taken a magnifying glass to the original, and it is indeed WJ306.

Link: Sedburgh WJ306 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2489/4041527277_09e5657ffc_o.jpg)

[astir 8]

Thanks Tiger - I always wondered what she'd looked like before the Red/White scheme:D

[Dark Side1]

The squadron went from Burtonowwod to Samlesbury and is now at York awaiting a new move back to the north west. When did you solo. ? I was there from 1972..

[Dark Side1]

Still going strong, but moved from Burtonwood then to Samlesbury now to York.. hopefully going back to the north west if we can get a new airfield..

[nimbus145]

Incidentally, I notice that XA310 is being flown solo without a ballast weight in the tail.


This is largely down to solo pilot weight. A pilot flying solo at minimum front cockpit weight and the tail weight fitted will have a c of g towards the aft limit. A heavy solo pilot will definitely need the tail weight as the c of g will be forward and the pilot finds himself with a constant load on the stick. The guy flying in this picture was very much middle of the road so could have gone either with or without the weight. With the glider often flying dual and having no weight fitted we only fit it if necessary to avoid constantly handling a large chunk of metal over some very delicate fabric!!
Hope this solves the curiosity and I have to say a very good spot!!!

[Frelon]

We never had them when we were young. But of course we were all much lighter in those days!

I seem to remember them coming in as a mod in the early 70s.

[Dave Gittins]

I was at Burtonwood in late 1969 and 1970 and although all records (other than my BGA A&B crtificates) have been long since lost reckon I probably soloed in around Jan or Feb 1970, just before my 17th birthday.

My main recollection is that it was a freezing cold winter and I had 2 pairs of thick socks and ATC boots and could feel nothing through my feet thus the red string tied on the pitot spent little time pointing directly back at me and we traversed the sky somewhat crabwise.

In that respect things haven't changed much :}

[603DX]

Small points about the BGA certificates. Mine are dated 14th August 1957, and I have always assumed that was the date of qualification, as I recall the one-week course at 613 VGS was in August of that year. Is this right?

The little green booklet containing them has on the inside of the front page the certificate number 24184 of the Royal Aero Club, with the signature below it of the President, Lord Brabazon of Tara. The 'A' and 'B' certificates have the signature of Yvonne Bonham, Secretary of the BGA. I guess that both signatures are simply facsimiles of some kind, but is this the case, or were they actual 'wet' signatures? Anyone know?

[Dave Gittins]

Mine (nt as old as yours dated 1970) is tucked in the back of my current JAR license with the Orville and Wilbur credit card, so I'll look over it at the weeknd and get back on Sunday.

[mpjswart]

I'm looking for a airworthy T21 Sedbergh.
I used to fly a lot in this one but yhere have been some problems with the syndicate it belongs to.
I figured it's time to buy my own.

I hope and be very grateful if anyone can help me along the way.

Many thanks

Martijn

[JW411]

603DX:

Well, I qualified just before you on 04.07.57 and my "A" and "B" was issued (No.23584) on 05.07.57. The signatures of Lord Brabazon of Tara and Yvonne Bonham look like rubber stamps as does the "C" and "Silver C" stamps by Frances Leighton.

The first "genuine signature" appears to be Naomi Christy on my "Gold".

[seagull617]

I think 617 GS was based at RAF Hornchurch before moving to Hendon in the early 60's. I did my A&B at Hendon in 1965, followed by being accepted as a staff cadet then got the advanced proficiency and 'C' badge while at Hendon. We moved to RAF Bovingdon in 1967/8 and I became a C/I and 'C' cat. We trialled flying at Manston by holding initially a summer camp during June 1970, then moved the school down to Manston in the winter of 70/71. I moved with them and retired from 617 (and from England) in late 73 as an 'A2' cat. Now live in New Zealand. Interestingly back at Hendon Jack Hammond was our CFI. I first flew with Jack in May 65 when he checked me for first solo, my last flight with Jack was in August 73 when he was a 'C' cat and I was the A2 checking him out. Sort of completed the circle. Gilly.

[midnight retired]

I have been asked by Flt Lt Bill Grey, a former OC 631 GS, to pass on his compliments to Staff and Cadets. Bill has read with great interest copies of the many threads on this subject which has evoked such happy memories to so many.
On the specific subject of WB 927 he would like to respectfully point out that this was really his !! In fact when he did eventually emerge from the pile of admin onto the airfield we dutifully made this delightful Glider available for Bill. It did fly and soar better than the rest,once that is you recognised the gain achieved by having a delicate touch like a midwife on the controls.
It was Bill who discovered the reason for WB927 being different in that it had been hand built by Slingsby as a prototype before the mass production jigs used for the fleet that followed.The angle of incidence of the tailplane ,for example , was not set by jigs but the by the careful insertion of a graduated shim ,and all modifications/repairs involved Slingsby rather than St Athan ,buts thats another story.

[WE992]

MR

Are you sure that 927 was hand built? I notice that the reigstrations WB919 - 926 exist of which at least 4 of these gliders were delivered prior to 927 being delivered on 5/7/49.

[midnight retired]

The history behind WB 927 is not in my personal domain and I will need to defer to Bill Grey for the details ,please be patient while I make contact with him.

[Biggles of 266]

XE799 is now under new management, and we are shortly to embark on her restoration to flying condition.

It was evidently the T31 in which Group Captain Johnnie Johnson went solo in a glider, though there is some confusion over the date.

The 644 VGS web site states:
"In 1948 a new Gliding School, No 44, was formed at Cottesmore in Rutland where the Station Commander, Group Captain JE Johnson DSO DFC (later Air Vice Marshall Johnson CB CBE) became a frequent visitor to the School making his first solo in a Cadet Mk3 XE799 on July 22 1953"

Unfortunately XE799 was not delivered to te RAF until 11.1.1954, so something is wrong, especially as Johnson did not become a Group Captain until 1.1.55, and became Officer Commanding, RAF Cottesmore on 28 Oct 1957.

The aircraft was also, retained at Syerston as 8943M as a spares airframe for the example now on display at Hendon XA302.

I would be most interested if anybody has any recollections, or photographs or dates of the JJ solo, or any recollections of this particular glider.

What we know so far.
XE799 Slingsby T.31B Cadet TX.3 (912)
11.1.54 Delivered to RAF (reportedly flown by Group Captain J E Johnson DSO DFC at Cottesmore on 22.7.53)
44 Gliding School, Cottesmore
1954 29 Gliding School, Spitalgate
1955 644 Gliding School, Spitalgate
1974 Air Cadet Central Gliding School (Detachment), Swanton Morley
1975 Air Cadet Central Gliding School, Syerston, tail code "R"
1984 Store, Syerston
1987 ACCGS, preserved at Syerston as 8943M
1996 RAFGSA, Syerston
2004 Boulton Paul Association, Wolverhampton

Currently she is in totally original condition, having not been flown since leaving Syerston. We intend a very sympathetic restoration indeed. More along the lines of preservation for the long term.
Guy

[longer ron]

I did my first solo in 799 on 25/6/69 at 644 GS Spitalgate on a weekend course,great to see she is going to be restored,where is she going to be based ? by PM if you like.
Does anybody have any archive photos of 799 or 644 late 60's/early 70's ??

[Biggles of 266]

She is owned by a syndicate of members of the T31M club (Now the T31 Club) and will be operated in Surrey and Hampshire.
She is totally 'safe' and under no threat of conversion, in fact quite the opposite. She will be restored to RAF spec with the utmost care.

As owners of 'Converted' T31's, we are T31 glider enthsiasts as well, and comitted to ensuring that no further T31's are converted. There are a number of unloved, part completed, or un airworthy conversions around already, so no need to deplete the dwindling stock of gliders any further.

This thread is a fantastic resource for sharing pictures of ATC in the wood era. Could I make a plea, for you all, if you have not so far, to dig out those photos and share them here, before your offspring put them in the wheelie bin, with the comment, "Oh just bin that lot, I think it is just Dad's pictures of old gliders"!

If anybody needs help converting pictures to digital format for posting, I would be more than happy to assist, so just PM me.
Guy

[WE992]

There is a fine colour photo of a T.21 at the following link:

www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1203374 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1203374)

[midnight retired]

Bill Grey has confirmed that WB 927 was one of 4 Sedbergh"s that was handbuilt by Slingsby.
Hope that this helps clarify the query ?

[astir 8]

Slightly puzzled how a Sedbergh could be anything other than handbuilt!:ooh: (Sorry - just had a vision of them being chewed from the solid by trained termites!)

Also (anorak hat on) WB 920 (Slingsby serial 559) seems to have been the first of the ATC order. WB 927 was serial 590 so I'm curious about this notion of a special build of 4 units in the middle of what for Slingsby would have been a mass production run (hat off)

[T-21]

T-31 XE799 was at Spitalgate in 1968/9 in dayglo orange/silver finish with a dark blue rudder and fleet number 3(dayglo on rudder) with the Gliding Centre. XA293 had a blue/red chequered rudder. The current Hendon machine XA302 was also at Spitalgate at this time with red rudder and fleet No 4.

There were four privately built T-21's none saw ATC service. WB974 to WB993 were built by Martin Hearn.

[Biggles of 266]

You either have an extraordinary memory, or you are looking at a picture?
If so any chance of a copy?
Otherwise, what is your secret, is it eating carrots, or spinach?
Guy :}

[cithos]

I don't know whether it might help those interested in the history of the ATC gliding movement but I see from my log book that I flew T21 WB959 four times at Grantham on the 4th April, 1958. The instructor was a P/O (VRT) Pentelow. During the same week, I subsequently solo'd on one of the Mark 3s.

I flew with 621 G/S from Jan. 59 to sept. 61. "Robbie" Robinson was the C.O., "Hobbie" Hobkirk was Adjutant; Bill Moody, John Stride, S/L Bridges, Roger Dudley, Roger Elseworthy, Mark Rudd, Peter Clay, Dave Bense, Manx Kelly ... some other names - I went to Hawkinge in July 61 for the cat C course and flew with F/Lts Ladley, King, and Vourden. Other Air Force officers who came to Weston were Fl/Lts. Ladely and Don Ross.

As to the aircraft at Weston I have recorded Mark 3s. WT874, XA310, WT875, XA308; T21s WB991, WB929, XN151 (usually based up at Halesland), Prefect WE980 in which I gained my "C" on the 26th June, '60 with a climb to 3,000ft. (must have been a rare easterly wind) and Prefect WE990 also usually based at Halesland.

Happy days ... at the time I was an impoverished Bristol Aircraft apprentice based at Filton. I subsequently moved into civilian gliding, then powered flying and joined BOAC in 1970. I have always been grateful to those dedicated individuals who stopped me from killing myself at an early age ... thank you all ... Jim :ok:

[midnight retired]

Hand built in the context of initial build prior to completion of production line jigs. In the case of WB927 it came to light when it was returned from St Athan following modification and rejected on the acceptance flight by Bill Grey due to it flying nose heavy, this being attributed to the tailplane angle of incidence. HQAC could not accept this suggestion stating that it had been rebuilt on standard jigs and that the angle of incidence was fixed.
WB 927 was then returned to St Athan who were unable to solve the mystery and so it went back to Slingsby and it was then recognised as being one of the four handbuilt Sedbergh Gliders.
Singsby's simple answer was to fit a wooden shim under the tailplane to correct this critical angle and the problem was resolved.
From that time on whenever further major modifications or repairs were needed to WB 927, it was always returned to Slingsby due to it being a non-standard Glider.
Presumably this was the reason why WB 927 was eventually scrapped at Slingsby in 1983/84.

Out of interest WB 993 was also at 631 GS, having been built at nearby RAF Hooton Park by Martin Hearn who I had the pleasure of meeting in the mid 1960's where he owned a posh restaurant on the outskirts of the old airfield which he had named the Glyder Club.

When I get the time to venture up into my loft I will dig out some old photo's; I should also have some cine film although I imagine this could be difficult to transfer to digital ?

[Penny Washers]

All these posts and still no mention of Cambridge! Was anyone else there?

I remember I trained on the Mk III, but they switched me to a Mk I for my first solo, after having explained that it had no aileron differential, and "if you put the stick over to the left it will turn to the right, so use lots of rudder."

Cambridge was a busy place to learn, with three parallel runways in operation - the hard runway, the grass one, and then one for the two gliding organisations, the ATC and the University Club. I can remember almost forgetting to fly the plane once, through looking down on a Balliol just taking off below me on a parallel runway.

And learning to drive on the Bedford 15cwt truck - "the gears are all in there somewhere!"
The instructors all used to push off to The Ancient Shepherds for lunch, but of course we cadets were too young (and skint!) for that.

I remember we aerotowed to Waterbeach for an RAF at home display in the T 21, with me as a delighted passenger, but it was a severe test for a young and unaccustomed stomach and I was glad to get on the ground again! Happy times - but what a long time ago now.

[T-21]

I have 105 Gliding School being at Teversham 06 May 1945 and disbanded there on 01 Sep 1955. Aircraft listed Grunau VT923, Cadet 1 RB116, T.2 VD105,VM636, Mk.3 XA283, T-21 WB985.
Also at Waterbeach by Sep 1954 was this due to Cambridge Airport being too busy ?

[T-21]

Hello Biggles,

No secret just wrote everything down at the time in one of my aircraft books which I still have . :)

[Biggles of 266]

Thanks,

XE 799 at Cosford a few years back

Photos: Slingsby T-31B Cadet TX3 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Slingsby-T-31B-Cadet/0917114/L/)

Currently missing Instruments, type Z seatbelts and gosport tubes or intercom
Please pm if you can help.
Guy

[WATB]

What a wonderful thread. Here's my very modest contribution. I was on a weeks course at 2 Gliding Centre RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey in August 1964. Instructors were F/Lt Rayner, F/O Hewitt, F/Lt Johnson and F/O Bullivant. Aircaft were Mk3's WT871, XA302, WT911 AND WT910 and Sedbergh WB948. My three solos were on XA302 which I'm told is hanging up in the RAF Museum at Hendon - is this true?
Bill

[WE992]

It sure is. Photo at:

www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1174684 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1174684)

[WATB]

11th August 1964. I must go & say hello.
Thanks,
Bill

[WE992]

My winter project is to return a Slingsby Swallow to full Air Cadet colours for use by the 621 VGS Historic Flight. Does anybody have any Swallow photos they can post here?

I am also looking for for an authentic narrow type canopy - just in case anybody has was hidden away for old times sake.

[Arclite01]

Try Longer Ron who posts here - he might have something...............

Arc

[Dan Winterland]

WATB, agreed. This is one of the best threads for a long time. The ATC organisation has been responsible for the inspiration of tens of thousands of young people to get involved in aviation. To give you an example, I fly for a Chinese airline and recently, I was flying with a local Chinese pilot. I asked him how he came to be in aviation. His answer was that his parents sent him to an English public school, he joined the CCF and had an air experience flight in a Chipmunk and that's when he decided he wanted to be a pilot - just like myself!

[Hyperborean]

Quite agree Dan. A good proportion of my interview by the then Board of Trade concentrated on my ATC experience including my gliding course. Result; I got into the other ATC and spent 42 years doing one of the best jobs in the world.

[Dave Gittins]

Absolutely .... my soloing at RAF Burtonwood in 1969 gave me a lifelong passion and means that although I still only have a paltry 225 hours, when instructors give me check rides and ask how long I have been flying. I can usually respond .. "I've been commanding flying machines a damn site longer than you, sunshine."

:}

And I have loved every minute of it and flown in a whole stack of different countries at every opportunity.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Its natural to be proud of going solo at Burtonwood, many did over the 25 years we where located there.
Your somewhat exaggerated comment reminded me of when a cadet came for interview. He had flown once on a grasshopper so in givng his gliding experience he said "Of course you would not know about them as I have been in gliding since it's infancy!"
You sound just like him.
Unfortunately Burtonwood is no longer - most of it is buried under Barret Boxes. Indeed all the airfields (apart from Woodvale) in the North West have now gone to their happy hunting grounds.

[Dave Gittins]

Exaggerated indeed - and I put it in a far nicer way than I wrote it.

However in 1969 I had aspirations to a bit more than a PPL and 200 hours over the next 40 years - but I ended up building airports not flying aeroplanes .. although I have flown a 172 or PA-28 off a few international airport's runways.

Were you at BWD when I did my training there ?

One of the first jobs I did when I started in Civil Engineering for Warrington NTDC was surveying the new town boundary, which was the fence of the M62 ... where I was sadly able to watch the runway I had once used becoming the M62 Motorway.

[Burtonwood Aviator]

Yes I was there from the start up 1959 to its transfer to Samlesbury 1984.
The fence line to the South of the M62 should have been much further North.
The Ministry of Transport wanted to rout the M62 to the North of ‘A’ Site and north of the Water tower before Joining at St Helens where it is now. Unfortunately the American Army Base Commander (Col Grabinski) at that time gave in to public pressure to use what was seen as an unused runway. Thus that is why there is a curve of the M62 in its direction. Shortly after that the Commander was killed in a helicopter crash on his way to Hythe. There where plans to reactivate the runway until this decision was made thus the die was cast
Regards

[Dave Gittins]

Way back before I moved to Lymm from "dahn sarf" in 1967 or 1968, I remember a photo in Air Pictorial of a C-124 Globemaster "At it's new Base at Burtonwood". I never saw such a thing whilst I was there (and anyway it would have played havoc with the light aircraft corridor).

[Bluesteel_0]

About time I made a small contribution.

I did my A & B in March 1978 with 611 VGS at RAF Swanton Morley under the command of Sqd Ldr Ron Page.

The day I soloed I had brought along my Instamatic camera and took a few very poor quality shots that have deteriorated since. While doing my 3 solo flights I gave a fellow Cadet my camera for safekeeping and he snapped this photo on the way back from my first landing (XN252 I think):

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL889/4975802/12101238/230239963.jpg

There's also a very blurry shot of taking the T31's out of the Hangar in the morining:

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL889/4975802/12101238/230734879.jpg

I'm sure I had more, but can't find them at the moment.

From my log book I seemed to have done most of my flying in XN252 and XN236. According to sources I've seen XN236 was written off less than a year after this photo was taken but XN252 is still flying, but now in the USA.

I'd noted my instructors surnames at that time in my log book and they were Chatfield, Thompson, W/O Lighthowler and Page. Sqd Ldr Ron Page did my final checks and sent me solo.

I got a bit of a rollicking after my third and final solo, as on the downwind I ran into a nice little bit of lift and instinctively turned into it and extended the expected 3 mins circuit to over 5 mins - which apparently I was not supposed to do! But as my father was a civilian gliding instructor I was also gliding at Crowland Gliding Club and the civil club at Swanton Morley at the same time. So I was used to flipping into soaring mode at the slightest hint of lift.

I also remember flying in a civilian T53 at the Swanton civil club, and being aerotowed behind a Tigermoth. I can clearly recollect that the flight was in strong thermal conditions and the T53's metal panels were flexing so much it sounded as if one was flying inside a steel drum orchestra at times!

They were great days and Swanton was a wonderful and vast grass airfield. Such a shame it's all been ploughed up now.

Julian

[Biggles of 266]

Julian
Good to see some more pictures thanks for posting.
Merry Christmas and lets hope Santa brings lots of scanners!
Guy

[WE992]

Nice photo at the link below:

www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1207644/ (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1207644/)

[Biggles of 266]

Excellent, that could be the only picture of WT911 in existence. Certainly the first I have seen.
Guy

[WE992]

Photo of T.21 WG497 at the link below:

www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1207641 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1207641)

[Alan645]

Missed the opportunity, flew XN198 many times with 645 at Catterick as it was a long term resident, maybe next time?:O

[635Burtonwood]

Looking through my log book, I see that I flew twice with Cadet Gittins at Burtonwood on 24 March 1967 . They were air experience flights in Sedbergh WB 946. Would you be the same cadet Gittins ?
I also flew with a couple of other cadets on the same day - Bourqe and Stewart - perhaps from the same squadron ?
Happy days !

[WE992]

As some of you will already be aware 621 VGS at Hullavington have a group of individuals who keep the 'wooden era' alive with a T.21 WB922 and a T.38 WZ828 together with the alternating loan of T.30 WE992 and T.31 XA310.

The gliders are flown on an as and when basis outside normal VGS operating hours launched by 'Wild' winch and privately funded.

Attached is a link to a clip on U-Tube of some recent T.21 action.

Enjoy:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzoomMnaa68 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzoomMnaa68)

[Biggles of 266]

Brilliant, hats off to you.

Guy

[astir 8]

They really ought to do the CofG hook modification on their T21 - then they could get decent heights on their winch launches!

[cambioso]

Superb video guys!
What memories stiired where they had rested (almost) long forgotten........I loved it!
I know that I (like 1000+ of you!) would give my eye teeth to fly a Barge or even a Mk3 again (I see from my old log book that I had 800 T21 and 1855 Mk3 launches over 6 wonderful years Air Cadet Gliding).
I wonder, could I swap a flight for a blast around the houses in our Oxford based Falcon 50 bizjet on one of our training flights?
Very best wishes (I'm still smiling!) and keep up the good work!
Jez Cooke

[WE992]

Jez

You are more than welcome to come and fly around in my Barge or Mk111 and I don't need anything in exchange. I'm in Wiltshire. Pm me if you want.

[WE992]

Astir 8

I agree with you having flown T.21 BZA at Keevil which had had the winch hook mod carried out. It was worth about an extra 300 ft on the launch. I have a hook mod kit for my T.21 (WB981) but simply do not have the time to carry out the work.

[astir 8]

Cambs

Oxford Gliding Club, Weston on the Green. Daisy (T21 Sedbergh) always welcomes open-air enthusiasts. Last flying 3rd January (cold). Check the OGC website, give us a call. There are one or two T21 drivers who would take up your bizjet offer too!

Dave W

[7of9]

You are more than welcome to come and fly around in my Barge or Mk111 and I don't need anything in exchange. I'm in Wiltshire. Pm me if you want.

I might take you up on that offer. Will sort out a weekend in the summer with Civ (Al Marshall) my brother when i have finished my PPL course.

Cheers Trev

[nimbus145]

Jez,
I look after the Historic Flight at Hullavington. We welcome any ex or current ATC instructors who flew wood who want to come and have a few nostalgic launches. Send me a message with some contact details and I'll get in touch. As WE992 said we have to operate outside VGS hours as Hullavington has two Squadrons flying opposite circuits so no room for us! If anything it tends to be Friday afternoon / evenings as and when enough of us get together to operate. The MKIII is with us on loan at present but will be off back to its owner this year some time, obviously it would be good to get you down before it goes - bear in mind that atleast one returning Instructor discovered the MKIII had shrunk over the last twenty years and he no longer fitted it!!! Of course if it is more convenient you have WE992's offer which would work out on weekends. Again, no need to offer incentives in return just come down and enjoy the moment. Regards Adam

[cambioso]

Dear Nimbus,
How incredibly generous.........Thank you!
I'll deffo be down any time you say...............I MUST fly a Mk3 again - never thought I would EVER get a chance.
PM on the way, and thanks a million.
Jez Cooke
(ex "B" Cat 637 Gaydon and 622 Old Sarum)

[kevmusic]

Nimbus, I echo Cambioso - a great gesture! Mind if I put the word out to some of my old 617 colleagues?

[nimbus145]

Kevmusic,
No Problem, pm me with an e-mail contact and I'll get in touch.

[WHBM]

My school (in the Wirral) CCF section, around 1965-70, had a glider kept on the school site in its own shed (all paid for by the RAF), which was brought out very occasionally and "twanged" (our expression) from one end of the playing field to the other. It was regarded as decrepit even then. As far as I can recall it had just a framework fuselage (or maybe this was the wing struts) rather than being faired in. Any idea what type it might have been ? I had no interest then. Seems a strange place for the RAF to keep a glider.

Story in the school history that one of the masters (who by his age might just have been ex-WW2 aircrew) once took it up over the road, and down into the field on the other side !

[621andy]

Twas me that discovered MK3s shrink:O

I've already posted several pics on here of 621's activities. A special thanks to WE992 is publicly due for his extremely generous loaning of aircraft:ok:, and Nimbus145 does a brilliant job rallying the troops to get out and fly them:ok:

Many thanks Guys...

PS; I'll be over in march again for my twice yearly fix:}...currently 16kg lighter, and hopefully a lot more by then:E...maybe the MK3 will've stretched a bit, although I suspect my legs still won't bend enough to get in:{ It was a tight fit when I was a skinny beanpole 17 year old!

[chevvron]

WHBM: that would have been a slingsby T38 Grasshopper, itself a development of the pre-war Dagling.
We had a great character at 613 Halton, Chief Tech Godfrey, who travelled round the CCF units maintaining these aircraft.
On arrival at a school one day, the school 'instructor' reported to him that 'the footrest thingy at the front was loose, and there was a bit at the back that kept flopping about from side to side whenever the footrest moved'. Chiefy swore blind he was telling us exactly what happened!!