Air Cadet Gliding pix in the 80s (pre glass)

[chevvron]

For a change, an airfield the Army hasn't ruined!!(Yet?)

[Airclues]

WE992

Great photos. Thanks.

Dave

PS. How was that last photo (from the Swallow) taken?

[WE992]

GOPRO mounted on the carrying handle on the rear fuselage. The first time I had used the GOPRO.

[Wander00]

Very nostalgic - flew T21 and Mk3 at Swanton Morley............in 1962! T21 at Cranwell in 63 and 63 including an aerotow Cranwell to Weston Super Mare at Easter!

[WE990]

Great Pictures WE992!!


Makes me wish we could get our Prefect out! Slight issue of no CofA!!


Here's a few of pics.......


https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/t1.0-9/539682_10151826098703638_2002359023_n.jpg?oh=289a4980587dc21 31c790bce741d9871&oe=5561BF56


https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1150899_10151826106453638_797518225_n.jpg?oh=f6eed4eac381f69 3e9b5e83b93ef7aa8&oe=554EB297


https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/37599_440354603637_3564447_n.jpg?oh=ec80292304507ff28b41830c 6f694de0&oe=5557B57C&__gda__=1428217605_8c9a8458a42fab58cb0ffc9ae625e040

[WE990]

......Also a quick one pre-restoration!


https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/25372_410807723637_1875208_n.jpg?oh=2f76d71b4b247ddc710c2854 e48b7bc6&oe=55494A08&__gda__=1432649329_082b59c494cd3567a029ec1434ca5e36

[chevvron]

For a moment, thought I'd flown '990, but checking in my log book, we had '987 and '993 at Halton in the mid '60s, my last Prefect flight being in '987 on 12 Aug 67 total time 4 hr 17 min, longest flight 24 min.
Two of us, both P1's, were briefed how to fly it on the same day, (4 Sep 65) the 'check' pilot being Sqdn Ldr 'Toppy' Topsfield. He emphasised how we MUST achieve final approach speed before opening the airbrakes as they were so effective, you wouldn't be able to accelerate once they were open.

[WE990]

Yep, the air brakes certainly are effective!

[WE992]

I like the photo of 990 with the Grasshopper at Lasham. Its a shame that the Barge in the background is not parked where the K13 is!

[WE990]

Indeed!


Reminds me of the lineup of 5 Barges at the Tibenham rally. (See below)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/39051_451385923637_7922611_n.jpg?oh=1fb9e1e912e5c76b4a4b5740 d5e85ad1&oe=5597030C&__gda__=1431942207_317f1dcd8817d671ae6e0948b0eb4657




Also, here's a couple of Slingsby old-school line ups from the same rally......
https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/39051_451385668637_6044466_n.jpg?oh=4b38410f7694cd82220c37f6 2e4bc507&oe=55481DA0




https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/l/t1.0-9/39051_451386003637_2189571_n.jpg?oh=f8e5881da264a39e4704594f cbdfb398&oe=555F4204

[JEM60]

Hi, Chevron. I remember as a 613 Staff Cadet, being briefed by Jacko and flying the Prefect after lunch. Bit different after the Mk 3!!. That was [no logbook] probably in 1959. S'Ldr Topsfield was around in my heyday, and was with us when we went on an advanced course at Halesland. Only one of us got a 'C', because the wind was not conducive to ridge soaring whilst I was there. The Prefects we flew there were HORRIBLE compared to the Halton one, seemingly pretty badly rigged, and awfully out of trim IIRC!!. Nice to see all the old names coming up. Huge amount of experienced instructors if they were still around in your day, as well as mine!!.

[chevvron]

I've got WB971 in my logbook; that was at Halton, but it had that horrible canopy fitted.

JEM60; yes Toppy was there with Jacko as boss of course; Phil Plows was CFI. I helped out winch driving on a summer course; Chris Rollings relieved me and sent me to the launch point and Phil said 'fly that one, I'm not going to bother with a check flight, as far as I'm concerned you're P1 as from now'.
Then there was Ken Bayliss. One saturday, very gusty and bit of a crosswind as there was a Scout camp occupying the airfield so we couldn't operate directly into wind. Anyway, I did a launch with KGB, then another and another, 5 in all. Then he says 'stay in' and goes away, coming back a minute later with a cadet; 'nice safe flying in these conditions' he says ' so you can now take your first air experience cadet.
Suddenly and most unexpected I was a P2!!
I got my 'C' in VX275 (before I broke it) during a detachment to Bovingdon; wonder if anyone from 617 GS ever got a 'C' there.

[JEM60]

Cheers Chevron. I never got to a P.1. Other things intervened, and I couldn't give it the commitment it needed. I look upon my time there as quite some of the happiest moments of my life [excluding family, of course!]. I LOVED winching, and apparently was good at it. After a poor bit of flying on my part, I was punished by Jacko, and winched for a whole month of week-ends. Phil Plows took me aside and told me that this would be happening, and was kind enough to advise me not to let it get me down. Ken Bayliss I flew with frequently, and I last saw him at Tony Wick's [a near neighbour] funeral. A nice guy, we got on well. What wonderful days they were, and great to have such responsibility in those days. When we are entertaining friends, they ask me what I used to do when I was young, and I relate my Halton experience to them with great enthusiasm, and more than a little pride. I loved it there!. Regards, John.

[treehopper]

I first flew with what was then, No.42 Gliding School at RAF Cosford on August 6,1955 with initial 2 launches in Sedbergh WB926, followed by 23 more launches in MkIII Cadets, WB870 and then went solo in Cadet MkIII XA290 on August 11. I stayed on and eventually became a civilian instructor and completed some 800+ more launches before joining the RAF in 1958 on a short service commission flying Provosts (9 cylinder radial) and then Vampiresn.

Would love to see some pics of Sedbergh WB926 and Cadet MkIIIs WT870 and XA290 if any exist

[UV]

Would love to see some pics of Sedbergh WB926 and Cadet MkIIIs WT870 and XA290 if any exist

here you go...
http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/bga5628.jpg
and the other one...
http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/wb926.jpg

[Mechta]

Does anyone know if the on-airfield recovery trailers were ever used with the T21 Sedburgh?

I've seen several photos with the T31/Mk3 on them but never a T21.

This is the type of trailer I mean:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3511/3202224122_7764fc8231_b.jpg

[UV]

Yes we used them a little, but the weight and twisting moment of the T21 damaged the trailer so we stopped.

[Mechta]

UV, Thanks for the reply.

Do you think that the trailer you had was originally intended for the T31/Mk3, and that the shorter nose on the T21 put the glider wheel ahead of the trailer axle, thus causing the problems you describe?

You can probably guess by now that I'm thinking how to design a similar trailer that would work satisfactorily for a T21!

[UV]

Mechta... yes we used an ordinary T31 trailer.
The T21 being heavier, and longer wingspan, used to snap the arms of the trailer and cause other damage. It was just not man enough for the job.
Much more I cannot remember as it was so long ago!

[WE992]

I think you will find that there is more than one type of trailer. I have one for the T.21 which appears to be much more robust than the one I have for the T.31.

[Mechta]

Thanks WE992. If you have any photos of the T21 trailer or can provide a link to them I would be very grateful.

[chevvron]

I never heard of a trolley for a Sedburgh; maybe it happened after 1970? We (613 Halton) were used to trial the protoype Mk3 trolley (late '64) and it was constructed and repaired (when necessary) in the station workshops - you could get anything like that done at Halton in those days!
On the rare occasions when we transported a Sed on a Mk3 retrieve trolley (it was always referred to as a trolley not a trailer), we had one in the cockpit to balance it and one on a wingtip 'cos the cables were the wrong length. I can't think of the reason for doing it but we did do it very rarely.

[treehopper]

@UV .... sorry for the delay in acknowledging your reply to my earlier post when I as looking for pictures of WB926 and XA290. Brilliant to see tham after all these years

[Roy1969]

Hi,

For my website I am looking for pictures of WB920 and WB926.

[Arclite01]

Chevvron

I think you could fit the Barge on the trolley but the wing ropes were too long. We overcame it by wrapping them around the struts once and then hooking the carabiner into the rings at the top of the struts as normal.

1 person stayed in the cockpit when being 'trolleyed' back to the Launch Point.

The main issue was that the Barge had a wider skid which meant it could be a tight fit (sticky) on the trolley ramp. Also the wing on the Barge was higher lift section and wider span so the chances of getting 'airborne' on the tow back was much higher than the Mk3 which we used tow at at least 25 mph (in the rush to get back to the launch point). I seem to remember that the tow speed for the Barge was not more than 15 mph on the trolley and maybe even 10 mph (memory fade)

The Barge was never really used for circuit training except for tall cadets who could not fit in the Mk3, staff training and mainly AEG (which entailed spot landing) so the trolley fit was not a major issue.

The Barge always seemed a hot ship to me compared to the Mk3 and the Swallow seemed like a spaceship compared to the Barge !!

Hope this helps and addresses some of the Trolley logic !!

Arc

Note: Being 'trolleyed' has a totally different connotation to my teenage sons than it did for me............

[India Four Two]

The Barge always seemed a hot ship to me compared to the Mk3 and the Swallow seemed like a spaceship compared to the Barge !!Back in the dark-ages, I went solo in a RAFGSA T21c at Dishforth.

Talking about space-ships, my club recently sent a student solo in this:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/IMG_2218%201024_zpsvlc3mpgo.jpg

A DG-1000S - 20 m span, 45:1 glide ratio and electric gear!

[Geoffrey Robinson]

Just to let you know, I am still around in South Africa but past my best flying date at 74. Have popped into RAF Cosford when in the UK.

Yes George Crump is gone and also some may remember the late George Potter. Andrew Johnson is in Australia. Alan Skit is back in the UK

[Andy H]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/90756339@N06/22495381075 https://www.flickr.com/photos/90756339@N06/22495381075Just found this thread. Fascinating. I solo'd at Hawkinge on xe810 on 21st May 1961, having been taught by a number of instructors. F/O Naylor & King, F/Lt Ladley were some I remember. It was a marvelous time to be in the ATC!
Andy

[l.garey]

Andy H: I too soloed at Hawkinge, but in XA282. However, one of my instructors was FL Ladley, like you. This was in 1958, so he must have still been around in 1981.

Laurence

[l.garey]

I just checked back to earlier days of this thread and find references to Ian Ladley in posts 62 and following. He was a Typhoon pilot in WW2, was still flying in the early 1980s, and died in 1990.

There is even a photo him and another of my instructors, Ron Whittenbury, post 308 by 2 sheds.

Laurence

[POBJOY]

Andy H i think you mean 1961 !

[Andy H]

Pobjoy, I do indeed mean 1961. I've corrected my post. Thanks for pointing it out, I must have been dreaming :=

If I could work out how to do it I'd upload a photo.....

[POBJOY]

A H Apparently Hawkinge used to suffer from the dreaded coastal fog that was known by the Gliding Centre as the HAWKINGE HOMER. and used to come in fast.
Of course it did not 'come in' the temp would drop and it was already there ready to form.
The memories of the airfield in the Battle of Britain live on in the 1968 film with some great shots of aircraft taking off and departing over the coast.
Those of us at Kenley were disappointed that it was not used for some of the scenes,as we still had a complete original airfield with blast pens,the original ops room and a belfast hangar with unique tower,all as per 1940.
We have Reach for the Sky in glorious 'mono' to remind us.
AH your XE810 lives on as a motor tutor G-BOOD,and i had the Naylor/King duo but at Swanton in 63.
LG your XA282 hangs from the roof at Caernarfon Museum
They both looked better in the original silver/yellow paint scheme of training command.

[chevvron]

Andy H: I too soloed at Hawkinge, but in XA282. However, one of my instructors was FL Ladley, like you. This was in 1958, so he must have still been around in 1981.

Laurence
My older brother went to Hawkinge for a course in late '61 but did not solo due weather. I believe the airfield closed shortly after this and No 1 GC moved to Swanton Morley. Rather than go there to complete his course, he went to 613 GS at Halton which was only about 10 miles from our home in Chesham.
Ian Ladley signed my P2 'chit' on 4 Aug 1966 - I still have it! I also have 2 P1 chits signed by (I think) Flt Lt M Bailey?

[l.garey]

Thanks for the comments Pobjoy and Chevvron. I too thought Andy H might have got his date wrong, but as Ian Ladley apparently was still flying in the early 1980s I didn't comment. However, as Andy is almost my age I should have realised!

I'm still enjoying this thread after so long it's been around.

Laurence

[chevvron]

In case anyone isn't aware, there are 2 threads in the 'Military' forum pages regarding Air Cadet gliding:-
'Air Cadets Grounded?'
'Calling all ex VGS instructors'
There's also a thread in www.forums.flyer.co.uk 'Air Cadets Grounded'

[froghopper]

Wonderful thread, so many memories, actually found my way here via a Landrover forum!!


I was at 625 South Cerney for quite a while late 60's to early 70's, haven't found my log books yet but around 3000 launches spread between mk111's and the barge, with a few (very few) in the prefect and swallow.


Reading about some of the goings on at Halesland really started to bring back the memories. I think I have the rather dubious honour of being the only barge driver to be shot down by AA fire. (and I didn't think it was friendly either)


What really happened was that I was solo in the barge, just after launch I was scratching about for a bit of lift off the ridge when there were a few bangs from below me, no problem as there had been some clay shooting going on all day. Then bang bang and zip thud, Christ! I've been hit!!, decided to get the hell out of the way and as I turned away could hear the shot rolling down the inside of the wing. Very gingerly got back into circuit and landed as smoothly as possible.


"Why did you come in you were set there for a while" "yes Sir but I've just been shot" No more flights for a while while the boys in blue - different blue that is - turned up. Can't really remember much more than that other than the barge was grounded for the rest of the week for minor repairs to fabric and inspection, I don't think they ever got all the shot out though.


To be quite honest given my height it would really have been at extreme range for a 12'r and the culprit probably didn't think his shot would even reach me.


Oh well "mange tout" as Dell would say.

[Daillyboy]

Hi all from a Newbie. How many Kirby Cadet MkII's were in use by the ATC at Kirton in Lindsey in 1960? Anyone know the serial numbers? As a 16 year old, I did 30 launches in one there, bad wx precluded going solo!
REgards Dick.

[Fitter2]

How many Kirby Cadet MkII's were in use by the ATC at Kirton in Lindsey in 1960? Anyone know the serial numbers? As a 16 year old, I did 30 launches in one there, bad wx precluded going solo!

I don't remember how many, but WT919 was one - my A&B in March 1960, the start of 56 years (and still counting) of gliding. Apparently it was sold to Sweden 20 years ago, but I don't know if it's still flying.

[gyp]

I was lucky enough to be on the staff of 2GC. A trawl through my ancient logbook reveals these serial numbers in the 1960 entries: Mk 3s - WT895, 911 and 919, WV925, XA312, XE780, 790, 797, and 803, XN194 and 195. Sedberghs - WB921, 923, 942, 948, 962, and 976, WG497, XN147, 186, 187 and 189.

[WE992]

Looking for any photos of the wooden era from Weston Supermare

[WE992]

It has been announced today that there is to be no further flying from Hullavington airfield. Sadly the 621 Historic Flight has nowhere to fly from and its future is unclear.

[Wander00]

WE992: Why is that - seems a shame

[Fitter2]

WE992

Looking for any photos of the wooden era from Weston Supermare

http://i68.tinypic.com/15eeqnk.jpg

Wooden era at WSM, but RAFGSA, not ATC. Wednesday Sports' afternoon, instructing Winter '63/64.

[WE992]

Wander 00 - The airfield is being sold off by the DIO for housing development and apparently a factory for Mr Dyson to build electric cars.


Fitter Any more RAFGSA photos from that era. That's the first photo I have seen of 216.


I have Tutor RAFGSA 178 that was at WSM - Did you fly it?

[sycamore]

How about Colerne ,or Keevil...?

[Wander00]

WE992 Good luck finding a new home - would not fit in with Bicester ethos would it?

[Arclite01]

Is it just me or does it seem that when we are closing or getting rid of anything in Government circles it seems to be done with incredible speed and haste and given away for peanuts (or well below market value) and of course no-one is consulted or user opinions are totally ignored, but when we need to buy something it seems to take forever, is difficult to do (for whatever reasons - usually 'BS') and is always expensive and late - and of course all the users have to be consulted and their opinions (relevant or otherwise) included in the final outcome.

Hullavington closure being a 'case in point'

Arc

[chevvron]

Looking at the photo of the 'barge' above, wouldn't it just be wonderful if some enterprising person acquired the Slingsby blueprints and started building them again, possibly substituting ally tubing for the wooden structure.
It would certainly 'save' Air Cadet gliding which after all, doesn't 'need' high performance glass ships.

[gazpen]

From then on. Just joined more to come.

[Frelon]

Cadet Davis, I think those Mk III times have been adulterated!! 12 minute solo flight in a Mk III, I don't think so:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[JW411]

I used to own 50% of a Cadet Mk.1 and I once managed 58 minutes before being forced down with a wet head!

[Innominate]

It looks as though all of Davis's times have a / rather than a 1 in front of them, but why???

[asw28-866]

Gazpen,

Sitting in a cafe half a world away and stumble across documentary evidence of 'Ed', 'Bill' & '904'. Evoking memory of formative days with interesting cohorts at 617, put a smile on my dial! Thank you for sharing.

[UV]

Cadet Davis, I think those Mk III times have been adulterated!! 12 minute solo flight in a Mk III, I don't think so

I think the times are cumulative...4 minutes per launch. He would probably have done 3 solos (hence 12 minutes).
Also adds up for the training...

[longer ron]

Maybe it is a 'slash' that has been added in front of the flight times as an alternative to using a zero - so 'slash' 4 would be 04 mins.
A 1 min flight endurance for pre solo checks would perhaps fit in with a couple of cable breaks
But having a view of the date next to the flight would perhaps confirm.
Hopefully gazpen will let us know :)

[VX275]

I have a 14 minute dual Mk 3 sortie in my log book. Apart from the take off and landing which were mine, the flight's duration was down to the skill of Les Rees who worked hard to keep us in the thermal.

[Arclite01]

I have a 28 minute MK3 flight off the wire when I was a U/T. 1 climb to 5000' (took ages) and straight down again. That was with 2 people in it.

Next flight was 12 minutes with me in it solo. Lost the thermal and straight down.................. on landing was debriefed with a kick in the shins and 'I did not tell you to go soaring' from the instructor (Peter H----t-D--n)

Spent the rest of the day on the winch and the bruises lasted a week............

Arc

[JEM60]

Spent 2 weeks on a winch as a Staff Cadet at 613, due to a flying misdemeanour. Thing was, I LOVED driving the winch,as a snotty 16 year old, and apparently was rather good at it!!!.:)

[chevvron]

Spent 2 weeks on a winch as a Staff Cadet at 613, due to a flying misdemeanour. Thing was, I LOVED driving the winch,as a snotty 16 year old, and apparently was rather good at it!!!.:)
I had a one week grounding on 613 as I 'accidentally' opened the hatch of one of the Vulcans. With no power in the hydraulic system, it took several of us pushing to close it and halfway through, Jacko rolled up.
Ooops!!

[Mnewton]

Found my log book.
flew Prefect WE 993 Aug 64
looks like it crashed
Crashed, Halton 23.9.75; Parts to BGA 2546 ?
Prefect (http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/prefect.htm)
WE 992 Still airworthy.
Flew Swallow XS651 April 65
looks like still at 621vgs
http://www.621vgs.co.uk/historicflight/news/wp-content/uploads/xs651.jpg
Flew T53B Xv951 Sept 69
Flew grasshopper XA241
The Shuttleworth Collection ? Aeroflight (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/museums/main/the-shut-colln.htm)
Flew grasshopper XK822 Aug 66
UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/results.php?serial=XK)
d/d 26/03/1956, sold 29/06/1988, sold 04/2010 to Partridge Green, West Sussex

[JEM60]

CHEVVRON. I bet his first words, as always, were 'what's going on?
I spent some time in the passenger seat of his car, an Alvis, or a Lea Francis, whilst he attempted to get it to spin on the wet concrete at the dispersal. If I remember, it understeered like you wouldn't believe, and he couldn't get the back to slide at all. Happy, wonderful days.

[chevvron]

CHEVVRON. I bet his first words, as always, were 'what's going on?
I spent some time in the passenger seat of his car, an Alvis, or a Lea Francis, whilst he attempted to get it to spin on the wet concrete at the dispersal. If I remember, it understeered like you wouldn't believe, and he couldn't get the back to slide at all. Happy, wonderful days.
He always had a Peugot when I was at 613.
His saying in my day was 'what's the holdup' always preceded by either one of his coughs or a blast on his whistle.

[chevvron]

Found my log book.
flew Prefect WE 993 Aug 64
looks like it crashed
Crashed, Halton 23.9.75; Parts to BGA 2546 ?
Prefect (http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/prefect.htm)
WE 992 Still airworthy.
Flew Swallow XS651 April 65
looks like still at 621vgs
http://www.621vgs.co.uk/historicflight/news/wp-content/uploads/xs651.jpg
Flew T53B Xv951 Sept 69
Flew grasshopper XA241
The Shuttleworth Collection ? Aeroflight (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/museums/main/the-shut-colln.htm)
Flew grasshopper XK822 Aug 66
UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/results.php?serial=XK)
d/d 26/03/1956, sold 29/06/1988, sold 04/2010 to Partridge Green, West Sussex
I think we know each other.
Did you used to have a Morris Minor convertible in which 4 of us (me, you, honey monster[RIP] and CR) stood to attention as you drove us back from the pub one lunchtime and Jacko was 'not amused'?

[Mnewton]

I think we do, are you GL?
You have a better memory than me , I did have my old MM convertible
Which pub was that, I remember going to the Bell at Aston Clinton for supper
a few times before it went upscale.Sure were great times.
Its amazing we never ripped the wings off the Grasshopper on the winch launch.
We had to tighten the wing guide wires every time we flew it.Who was honey monster?
My old MMinor died on the M1 one year and a buddy towed me back all the way to
Watford had to get the engine head skimmed , traded that in for a Triumph 1250
Always remember the one kid who would meditate once he got released from the cable,
I must have taken him up a lot more than the average 30 , one of the other officers tried him out and then Jacko. jacko let him go solo and he crashed into the Canberra down the field nearly sliced his legs off.

[Mnewton]

Also remember the day flying a T21 back to the hangar late in the day,
we used to pretty much fly them right onto the tarmac in from of the hangar
and when I got close some wind shear dropped my port wing and I hit one of the
bad ground markers,I had the stick right over and the wing wouldn't lift.
BQ came in behind and did exactly the same thing,so we had 2 T21's out of commision. We filed it with White Waltham and they thought it was only one accident as they
were exactly the same write up.
I remember talking to Jacko on the phone explaining what happened for the longest time,
he didn't believe that it was wind shear off the side of the hangar.Fun times.

[JEM60]

Flying a Mk 3 back to the Bessoneau hangar at the end of the day with Ken Bayliss in the back. Anson taxiing towards the hangar. I decided to go over the top of it, Ken decided to go between it and the hangar. Interesting few moments. I guess Mr. Bayliss is in the big airfeld in the sky now??

[chevvron]

I think we do, are you GL?
You have a better memory than me , I did have my old MM convertible
Which pub was that, I remember going to the Bell at Aston Clinton for supper
a few times before it went upscale.Sure were great times.

Not GL; I think I was told he is no longer with us, nor is BQ (fags got him) or RAF/Honey monster (big C).
I'm TC, from the same squadron as RAF and CR, who is still around!
The 'Rising Sun' at Aston Clinton was our 'lunch break'.

[chevvron]

Also remember the day flying a T21 back to the hangar late in the day,
we used to pretty much fly them right onto the tarmac in from of the hangar
and when I got close some wind shear dropped my port wing and I hit one of the
bad ground markers,I had the stick right over and the wing wouldn't lift.
BQ came in behind and did exactly the same thing,so we had 2 T21's out of commision. We filed it with White Waltham and they thought it was only one accident as they
were exactly the same write up.
I remember talking to Jacko on the phone explaining what happened for the longest time,
he didn't believe that it was wind shear off the side of the hangar.Fun times.
Doesn't beat Fred F in a Mk3; there was still daylight between his wheel and the ground as he went through the hangar doors one evening!

[chevvron]

Found my log book.
flew Prefect WE 993 Aug 64
Flew T53B Xv951 Sept 69
First flew WE993 on 4/9/65 and last on 12/9/65 (9 flights). Next recorded Prefect was WE987 from 16/7/66 to 5/4/67 (kept that one a long time)
XV951; 2 trips with 'Duggie' on 28/9/69

[Mnewton]

Trying to find the flight with Gerry L in a T21. Took off got to about 1200 , stick right back.
I think I was showing GL how to loop. Stalled it, pointed at the ground,watched for 80 knots back and over.Ok gerry you try one.Stalled it,looked at the ground , he pulled it back at 75 knots.Got upside down and STOPPED,was hanging there ,all the grass came out of the cockpit, luckily we didnt go backwards and rip off the tail.After that I always dble checked my harness.I still have nightmares of falling out of that T21 sheesh.

[Mnewton]

This may have been posted b4.Ken Bayliss liked to wait for the double decker bus that would come down the road.On days when the control point (landing) was by the hangar he would try to run the wheel across the top of the bus or just pop the T21 over the hedge in front of the bus.One day the driver slammed on the brakes and a old lady went flying inside the bus. Complaints were sent from the bus company. A week or so later they switched to single decker bus :). Not sure if he tried to bounce it off the top of that one.

[WE992]

Great to see that this thread has been dusted off and come alive again.

[cooperplace]

a friend who was in the UK air cadets in the 60s told me that they used a glider where takeoff was effected by means of a big rubber band, and that the maximum altitude achieved was about 50m. Does this ring any bells with anyone?

[chevvron]

Using a 'bungee' cord ie elastic rope was the 'standard' method of launching in the '30s when operating from a hilltop site.
In the '60s, many 'public' schools had their own cadet units which had a 'primary' glider allocated to them. This was used on the school playing fields to teach basic ground slides and hops using the same type of bungee cord.

[cooperplace]

thank you, that is exactly what he described. Apparently at his school it was wound up after some kid was launched, after minimal training (I'm told), panicked and dived the thing into the ground and was hurt.

[Mnewton]

A T38 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Um_kDEy8I20
The bungee was probably 50 feet long and a Y form.The base of the Y was attached to the release mechanism of the T38.the rear was attached via a release and rope to a stake in the ground. About four strong kids would take up the tension on either side of the Y.when a certain tension was reached the pilot would release the rear and the T38 would hop into the air.The trainee pilot would try to do a slight turn maybe before landing on the skid. At 613 sqdrn we couldn't be bothered with the bungee so we winch launched it up to probably 800 feet. It then dropped like a brick and we just about got back to the take off point!.White Waltham however informed us later that the T38 was not built to be winch launched !

[DaveReidUK]

Nice video of a T.38 being aerotowed by a Tiger Moth here:

T38 Grasshopper at Long Mynd (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um_kDEy8I20)

[Wander00]

We had a Grasshopper at Harrow County, my memory is that Maurice Venn, ex RAF pilot and the CO of the RAF Section of the CCF, crashed it on the school field

[cooperplace]

thank you for these informative replies! very nice video.

[JEM60]

Mnewton. I think the Dagling was used for the first time whilst I was there. Fitted with an ASI and an altimeter it was winched to about 900ft. S/Ldr Topsfield flew it, and he did the same at a Battle if Britain display. As you say, it flew like a brick, and surprised the hell out of an Auster that was on short finals, as the Dagling appeared in front on a base leg. Happy days!!.

[Mnewton]

We had a one ton trick for towing the winches out in the morning. On really wet days we would do hand brake turns in it on the wet grass (not with a winch on the back).
I think BQ tried it on the tarmac by the hangar and hit the side of the hangar, or maybe it was in one of the jeeps.

[JEM60]

I seem to recall doing much the same in Bedford 3 tonners, but using a fair bit of steering lock, then a LOT of power to spin it round, but only in the early morning when setting up the launch site. As Staff Cadet, I was frequently the only one there at that time of the morning. The marks in the grass were nothing compared to the ruts that a Beverley made when picking up the RAF Falcons on a Battle of Britain day show.! I swear that they were still there a year later, but it did mean getting a Mk111 airborne was made easier, if a little premature!!. Happy days!.

[Mnewton]

I think it was T21 VX275 (Mrs Hepple ) that was up over the halton ridge at maybe 2000 ft plus lots of lift from some nice black storm clouds.(not supposed to fly in these conditions).The green ball on the variometer right at the top.Opened the spoilers to descend, was still going up. Only with a full boot of rudder and a heavy side slip did the T21 drop out of the sky. Landed it back by the hangar and we them all away for he day.

[Olympia 463]

My handle will give away where I'm coming from.

I soloed on a T31 in 1964 at Meir near Stoke on Trent. I was a founder member of a club which was formed to go on flying at Meir when the ATC squadron there was disbanded. Our instructors were the civilians who had been doing the job for the ATC. I went solo after 30 launches - the first member of the new club to do so. I did a lot of flying in the 31 and a lot more on the Tutor, before I was allowed to fly the club Olympia. I found the closed cockpit a bit claustrophobic, but I eventually formed a syndicate with two other new soloists and a club instructor (the insurance required this). Later on I had a share in an Olympia 463 a wonderful machine.

I flew 2250 sorties in 22 types at 10 clubs in a 25 year career in gliding, becoming an instructor as one does, and a Silver C. I did try a weeks flying in 2007 to see if gliding was like roller skating, something you never forget. It is, however I really did not take to the modern plastic bath tubs, so didn't pursue it further. I get plenty of time on my gliding simulator - Condor before you ask - and have done another 2000 hrs or so plus a lot more cross countries than I ever did in real life. I enjoy reading the tales of derring do on here. Keep it up.

[SteveW4108]

Hi, I was just looking for info on my father-in-law/Typhoons when i found your post. Ian Ladley sadly died in 1990 and is sorely missed, He was indeed a great character. My husband and our son (Ian's son and grandson) have continued the family tradition, my husband glides and is a tuggy and my son also glides, I also glide on the odd occasion having been a solo pilot many years ago. We all fly from Shipdham Airfield in Norfolk being members of the '8' Ball Soaring Group which is part of Shipdham Flying club in sunny Norfolk. Up until 1995 we still flew from just beside Swanton Morley Airfield having been made to re-locate due to the Army taking over the airfield (not a popular move!).
Anyway, if you (or indeed anyone else reading this post) have any pictures/anecdotes/stories etc etc about Ian I would very much love to hear from you.
Happy landings,
Janet Ladley please reply if you pick this up.

[618Adj]

The tale is told of cadet Bloggs sat in the from seat of a Mark III at 618 at West Malling when what appeared to be a young cadet corporal ran across and said to Bloggs "No-ones looking - shall we take this up for a ride", and promptly jumped in the back, called for a cable and took off with Bloggs in the front terrified.

The young corporal was the CO's son ( and an instructor) who later went on to Fly Navy, and one weekend brought his Sea King, with an all ex Kent Wing crew, to a Maidstone hotel for the Wing Ball - after spending a day giving air experience at , I think, Rochester Airport. The departure next morning from the hotel helipad was a a bit noisier than the normal helicopters they were used to on a Sunday morning

From Noddy

The young corporal was probably Graham Jackson, his father was S/Ldr Dennis Jackson (now dec.), who was a supernumary officer on 618 and a Kent Wing staff officer. Later became Kent Wing ATC's C.O. Graham joined RN as a helicopter pilot and finished as a Lt, Cdr. Went on to fly for one of the Middle East Countries, I can't remember which one. At the time you were talking about S/Ldr. Gerry Fuller was 618's CO.

[Oddsoft]

It was 50 years ago today:

https://www.oddsoft.co.uk/Resources/solo.jpg

First solo 21 Jun 67 at Swanton Morley courtesy Douggie King.
He has a lot to answer for - I'm still in the aviation business and off to do someone's IRT today!:)

[chevvron]

Glad to see the cable's on the correct hook!
Co-incidentally, my first solo was in XA305, but that was on 7 Nov '64 at Halton.

[Sultan Ismail]

I was there over Whitsun Weekend 1958.

I recall T21 and Sedburg.

Now 59 years later I am pleased to report successful completion of my PPL competency checkout.

[Rosevidney1]

Brings back the memories of the SW gliding school (No.84?) at RNAS Culdrose in 1956 as an ATC cadet taking my first solo. I much regret losing the little logbook so I'm unable to find the serial numbers involved.

[gyp]

If there are any primary plots still with this thread, they might enjoy this.
The Bungee (http://www.a-e-g.org.uk/the-bungee.html)

[chevvron]

If there are any primary plots still with this thread, they might enjoy this.
The Bungee (http://www.a-e-g.org.uk/the-bungee.html)
What a fascinating article.
We used to have a Chief Tech Godfrey at Halton who was on the MGSP which toured the CCF schools. It was he who told us about the school instructor complaining about the loose footrest etc.
We had a serviceable T38 at Halton for a while which was normally winch launched. One sunday however, we couldn't fly due to low cloud and in any case, Herts Wing ATC were holding their annual parade on the airfield.
Then Chiefy hatched a plan. He 'happened' to have a bungee in the boot of his car. How about we did some demo bungee launches for the benefit of the cadets?
So we did. I didn't get a go unfortunately, but we went up and down the airfield with the parade in full swing on the main apron. How many cadets on parade were watching is another matter!

[VQ5X03]

A much younger Cdt Cpl Swift waiting to attach the cable to either WT919, XA287 or XA292 at 633VGS, RAF Cosford, in 1971. According to my 3822 the T21s on site at the time were WB926, WB983 and XN156.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4372/36902106832_0491caabf9_z.jpg

Instructor names in the 3822 include Tony Greensall, Keith Mitchell, Bill? Letch, John Bullock, Geoff Robinson, George Crump, Brian Henley, ? Durnien, ? Egan, ? Booth, ? Stockley, ? Potter, Alan Robinson and ? Wisniewski.

[jimjim1]

If anyone objects to this re-use of material I will delete the post(s). I was frustrated by their invisibility and this was just about the easiest way I could view them.

kevmusic Post #1

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Queuingtolaunch.jpg~original
Queuing to launch


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Checkscomplete.jpg~original
Checks complete.


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Attachcable.jpg~original
Attach cable.....



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/AllOut.jpg~original
All out!!



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Yeehah.jpg~original
"Yeehah!!!"



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/fromthewinch1.jpg~original
From the winch



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/fromthewinch2.jpg~original
Eeeaasing back on the throttle.....


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/fromthewinch-cablereleased.jpg~original
Now reel in fast to inflate the 'chute!



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Upslack.jpg~original
Up slack!


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Creaksabitdoesntshe.jpg~original
Creaks a bit, doesn't she!!:}



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Handonyellowknob.jpg~original
Nearly there.....



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Isntshelovely.jpg~original
Isn't she lovely!

Frelon post 52


http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/WT867-Resized.jpg~original?t=1232369743

[jimjim1]

CH2 post 93

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/CH2/Venture3.jpg~original
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/CH2/Duxford3-4.jpg~original

Frelon post #94

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x165/Biggles615/MikeinPrefectWE992.jpg~original

kevmusic post #105

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Openthetoybox.jpg~original

Opening the toybox...


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/suncomingupbehindthe1917hangar.jpg~original

Sun coming up over the 1917 hangar. (Since pulled down, alas :ugh:)


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Waitingforacable.jpg~original

Waiting for a cable



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/TheydvehadtoredefineVFRfortheMk3.jpg~original

They'd 've had to re-write VFR for Mk3s!!


http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Baseleg.jpg~original

Base leg



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Onfinal.jpg~original

On final



http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/kevmusic9/Youcouldalmostgetoutwalk.jpg~original

You could almost get out and walk!

[Cows getting bigger]

Great set of consolidated pictures. Brings back fantastic memories of my ATC gliding in the early 80s (645 VGS, Catterick).

[cavuman1]

Concur with Cows getting bigger, jimjim1 - a fantastic compilation of photographs! I had 760 hours on my PPL-SEL back in 1983 when I took up soaring in Jackson, Mississippi, of all places. My then-girlfriend and I were picnicking on the banks of the Ross Barnett Reservoir when a Blanik L-13 on short final swooped and swished over us at 200 feet. Taken by the sight and deaf to the plaints of my lady, an hour later I was front seat in that very craft, amazed that an all-metal, forward-swept glider possessed such a reasonable L/D ratio: 1/28! I loved flying a stick, too! I graduated to Grob 103's at Caesar Creek Soaring Club here in Ohio some years later. This is the largest soaring club in the United States and is replete with wonderful people and a wide assortment of aircraft. Now that Spring has sprung at our latitude, it's time to get a tow to 3,000, catch a thermal, and revel in the glory of it all...

- Ed

[GotTheTshirt]

The ATC was great in getting youg lads into the air. All Free as well ! I learnt Glide at Spittalgate - which didnt seem to get a mention in the earlier items!!
Free train pass from Derby to Grantham Friday night, two days free board and lodging, great tuition -what more is there!!
Memories in winter of the big V8 wiches that were started by the RAF chaps ! by dipping a rag in petrol and putting over the carb intake !!

[chevvron]

The ATC was great in getting youg lads into the air. All Free as well ! I learnt Glide at Spittalgate - which didnt seem to get a mention in the earlier items!!
Free train pass from Derby to Grantham Friday night, two days free board and lodging, great tuition -what more is there!!
Memories in winter of the big V8 wiches that were started by the RAF chaps ! by dipping a rag in petrol and putting over the carb intake !!
Er wasn't Spitalgate the WRAF depot too?https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif
I think it was No 2 Gliding Centre(No 1 being Swanton Morley) until the pongos moved in and wrecked the airfield.
And of course, Catterick airfield has also been wrecked by the Army; would you believe they landed a Victor on that runway once destined for the fire ground?

[Mnewton]

Great set of pics Jim, pitty smart phones were not invented by then, would have a lot more
pics like this.
We have local air cadet flying group in Niagara on the Lake ,Ontario will
wander over this year and give them a hand and find out what they fly.

[Wander00]

Spitalgate then became Prince William of Gloucester Barracks, my TA HQ

[Flying Palm Tree]

I went solo at West Malling in summer 1970 aged 16. Anyone here have photos of WM in those days?

[astir 8]

In case any former follower of this thread has missed it, there is an excellent thread currently running on the Military forum concerning the T31/Cadet Mark 3

[Prangster]

And lo I entereth the holy place that is 617 Squadrons hanger at Scampers and stop dead in my tracks. No 'tis not the ghost of a black Labrador I see but my youth passing before mine eyes. For there bretheren I commeth across not only 643 Gliding Schools name board and honours list but also a fully rigged Slingsby T21 known to the anointed as the Barge Sublime. Even odder same hanger contains the ATC official archive, get thee along friends B4 it for all vanishes

[Blossy]

Ah the Barge! I seem to remember still being in the sky at 21 kts can that be right? (My memory is not nearly as good as it was) I'm sure we landed at a brisker rate than that.

[chevvron]

Ah the Barge! I seem to remember still being in the sky at 21 kts can that be right? (My memory is not nearly as good as it was) I'm sure we landed at a brisker rate than that.
Stalling speed about 25 - 28 kt depending on weight of occupants
Final approach speed should be :-
Stalling speed + 5 (= circuit speed)
+ 7 (= critical speed on base leg)
turning final + 1/3 of the windspeed (to compensate for wind gradient)
I think that's correct, but it was 50 odd years ago!

[chevvron]

Not GL; I think I was told he is no longer with us, nor is BQ (fags got him) or RAF/Honey monster (big C).
I'm TC, from the same squadron as RAF and CR, who is still around!
The 'Rising Sun' at Aston Clinton was our 'lunch break'.
Went to a 613 'retired winch drivers' re-union a couple of weeks ago.
Learned that CR(Chris Rollings) made his last departure to the sky a couple of years ago having been a BGA National Coach and he also flew a display at the Farnborough Airshow one year.

[treadigraph]

That's sad news. I think his Farnborough appearance was in the 1990s with Tizi Hodson - can't recall what the act was but presumably one flew a tug.

Believe in the 1980s, at a Booker competition, I bought a book from him in which he'd published all the BGA numbers. Think it was him, flogging them to glider spotters from the boot of his car... :)

[chevvron]

That's sad news. I think his Farnborough appearance was in the 1990s with Tizi Hodson - can't recall what the act was but presumably one flew a tug.

Believe in the 1980s I bought a book from him at a Booker competition in which he'd published all the BGA numbers. Think it was him, flogging them to glider spotters from the boot of his car... :)
Knew Chris since 1962 when we were both members of 2204 (Chesham) Sqdn ATC along with the late Honey Monster and the late Brian Lecomber.
Chris started his gliding career by becoming a Staff Cadet at 613 GS RAF Halton and rose to the grade of 'B' Cat instructor as a CWO before he left; he was only the second person to put up 'B' Cat wings while still a cadet.
At Farnborough, Tizi flew a motor glider equipped with a retractable towing cable; she towed him up and when he released, she retracted the cable and they did a synchonised display.
Whilst at Farnborough, I had the pleasure of introducing him to the then CO of 613 VGS who was there with a Vigilant.

[Prangster]

How on earth did you remember all that? I had a rather odd initial course. For some reason MK3;s were all grounded and we did most of our training on the Barge, you guessed it they then sent us solo on MK3's I only ever flew the damn thing twice before solo

[Mnewton]

I had heard that Chris lost his fight with cancer and pretty much his fight with Tiger Airways
as his Tiger Moth operation was similarly named or close to it.
I was waiting for the invite to the 613 sqdrn 'cable splicing club' dinner in Aston Clinton at The Bell.
The invite must have got lost in the mail!
Our local air cadets here in Niagara on the Lake is 809 Newark sqdrn and they fly a Schweizer 2-33A
out of the local airport.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x168/index5_0932e81292a1745d6ef5f32dfad7b5860b2cb421.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/299x168/index1_8e544ce7cc3626e799dde1cdf1f71d38bfcc8f50.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/259x194/image2s_616f033e88420fa9b62cfc72acf79bd7f3740cde.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/275x183/image3s_0d2a39584a2751ebb4d6821107a6e0cd027e5439.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x225/20190526_110713_300x225_b657902345445aec468d0522de4aacfe0250 1ce1.jpg

809 Newark | Royal Canadian Air Cadet Squadron (http://www.809cadets.ca/)
Slightly different now
Q: Do cadets also teach summer courses?
A: Qualified senior cadets get to teach and get paid to be staff cadets

[wub]

How on earth did you remember all that? I had a rather odd initial course. For some reason MK3;s were all grounded and we did most of our training on the Barge, you guessed it they then sent us solo on MK3's I only ever flew the damn thing twice before solo

I flew with a civilian club and did all my training on the Barge, before soloing in a Prefect.

[ACW562]

I can go better than waiting in the airfield caravan......I, and some other staff cadets used to sleep in the dam thing. We used the aldis lamps of a night time. Duty instructor the next day always wondered why the battery was flat ! Then we progressed to the Airman's transit accommodation. Mentioned our discomfort one day to the Station Warrant Officer. (Behind the back of the Gliding School CO of course. Flt Lt Bill Grey) He never found out. Honest !!!

[ACW562]

Jim was an ex RN WW2 pilot. Instructor at 631 GS RAF Sealand. Set the airfield on fire , literally, in mid 1970s. Walking back with a Sedburgh after landing ….lit a cigarette and discarded it. The long hot summer it was.... YEP. Fire started and chased the Sedburgh with Jim and his aircraft back to the hanger. Station fire unit could not cope with the blaze, and Flintshire Fire Service attended to assist. Happy days.

[Mnewton]

At 613 there was one mk3 solo that went into the field to the starboard side of the airfield. Not sure who the solo pilot was but he spun into the field from about 200 feet. Ambulance was called. They showed up but would not drive into the field through a gate as it would have bent the Arial on the roof, so they walked a stretcher in and picked up the pilot.

[ACW562]

It was 631 GS. RAF Sealand. Pilot survived. later returned and went solo.

[ACW562]

I have some 1960s photos but not able to upload for some reason. Will keep trying.

Solo at 631 GS RAF Sealand March 1968. Kept on as staff cadet. Later A2 Instructor.

[ACW562]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1538/dagling_pws_no_date_2__0f4bd4c3f29031e7a0071fa8cb7c6007424f8 d17.jpeg

The said Daggling.

[chevvron]

Sure it's not a Grasshopper?

[Mnewton]

Looks like a grasshopper to me ,its a wonder we didnt fold up the wings on the winch launch at 613 gs

[DaveReidUK]

Sure it's not a Grasshopper?

If Wikipedia is to be believed,

"the [Slingsby T.3 Primary] type became known as the Dagling, a name formed by combining Dagnall and Zögling, which later became used informally to cover all types of primary gliders in the UK"

so a Grasshopper was also, colloquially speaking, a "Dagling".

[chevvron]

Thought the Grasshopper had the designation T 38.

Then of course Elliots of Newbury (EoN) prodiuced their version which was I think the Eton.

[DaveReidUK]

Thought the Grasshopper had the designation T 38.

Yes: T.3 Primary (based on the Dagling proper) and the later T.38 Grasshopper.

[ACW562]

Sure it's not a Grasshopper?
It is. Daggling is an old term used many years ago.

[ACW562]

Looks like a grasshopper to me ,its a wonder we didnt fold up the wings on the winch launch at 613 gs
800 ft on a winch launch. It did not go in the daily flying log !!

[ACW562]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1299/img090_3__4d25341125b3eb7c513480696d1b1b057cf6ab62.jpg
631 Sealand. 1968

[ACW562]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1560x2000/sedy_wb986_186_gs_first_sedy_2__3f063aef43cd9377cd057018505d 01d63bf98200.jpeg
WB986. First Sedburgh to be delivered to the then 186 GS. Later 631. Hawerden and later sealand. (1953. I was still in my pram then. This photo given to my by Bill Grey. Ex CO of 631)

[ACW562]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1418/curil_coleman_in_sedy_wb937_harden_date_nk_3718873168a38d139 930d0bb639da47285a14de0.jpg
WB 937 over Hawarden. Cyril Coleman. (100 % great man and instructor.) Mid 60s

[chevvron]

800 ft on a winch launch. It did not go in the daily flying log !!
It did at 613 'cos the CO, Jacko, did the first flight and he was no lightweight; as Mal said it's a wonder the wings didn't fold up. .
The guys on the winch said they fell about laughing when he was overhead, seeing this very slim fuselage with Jacko's bulk at the front.

[WE992]

Great photos keep them coming!

[chevvron]

Watched James Martin's cookery show on TV today and he visited the Windemere Jetty Museum. Take a look at this.
Slingsby Falcon 1 Glider - Windermere Jetty (http://www.windermerejetty.org/items/slingsby-falcon-1) glider/

[Guern]

I went to RAF Halton in !985 to do my glider scholarship on Venture Gliders.. I can't remember what the VGS was called. Excellent fun.

[chevvron]

I went to RAF Halton in !985 to do my glider scholarship on Venture Gliders.. I can't remember what the VGS was called. Excellent fun.
Well 612 were boltholed to Halton sometime in the late '80s or early '90s (kicked out of Benson until someone twigged there was an empty airfield at Abingdon and get in quick before the Army ruined it), but it was probably the resident 613 you flew with.
I was Wing Gliding Liaison Officer for both schools at the time of the co located operations.

[Guern]

Thanks. Having found some paperwork today it was 613.

[Mnewton]

Watched James Martin's cookery show on TV today and he visited the Windemere Jetty Museum. Take a look at this.
Slingsby Falcon 1 Glider - Windermere Jetty (http://www.windermerejetty.org/items/slingsby-falcon-1) glider/
looks like another flying brick , wonder what altitude was reached on the tow ? 200 feet ?

[bill2b]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1418/curil_coleman_in_sedy_wb937_harden_date_nk_3718873168a38d139 930d0bb639da47285a14de0.jpg
WB 937 over Hawarden. Cyril Coleman. (100 % great man and instructor.) Mid 60s
My first 5 glider flights were in this one on 9 March 75, 27 minutes total. then another 12 minutes a month later. First picture I have seen of it thanks.

[longer ron]

I cannot remember if either myself or a n other forum member has posted this photo before but I always thought it was a pity that the T21 was redesigned post WW2.
The original T21 cockpit looked so much more fun :)

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/548x404/t_21_open_1927cd99db16b4deccbc3247099947a69a26f65a.jpg

[chevvron]

Yes according to what I've read, that is the view with the front section detached; a front section was provided but the RAF didn't like it so the aircraft was re-desigend to omit the detachable bit.

[longer ron]

Yes that is correct Chevvron - from memory the original T21 was rejected by the RAF and ended up at Dunstable ?? The Gliding Club really liked the concept and suggested some improvements to Slingsby,slingsby slightly enlarged the design and it emerged as the T21 A then B.

[Krystal n chips]

I cannot remember if either myself or a n other forum member has posted this photo before but I always thought it was a pity that the T21 was redesigned post WW2.
The original T21 cockpit looked so much more fun :)

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/548x404/t_21_open_1927cd99db16b4deccbc3247099947a69a26f65a.jpg

Ahem, about your idea of "fun ".....;)...personally, I prefer something a "bit more robust "than,, erm, thin air. You could see why it could be a shade problematic if Cadet Bloggs decided on his first launch he wasn't quite as enthused about gliding as he thought....on the other hand, easy access for controls maintenance guaranteed ! . Just out of interest, where's "the Bomb " or was this added on later marks ?...….had a few hrs in the Barge which was always "sedate " to fly .

[JW411]

As best as I can recall, the Bomb modification didn't come along until the late 1960s. Prior to that, the other seat had to ballasted securely if solo flight was considered. I did have one exception; an extremely well self-ballasted navigator who was a great amateur chef. He was also a bloody good navigator.

[wub]

As best as I can recall, the Bomb modification didn't come along until the late 1960s. Prior to that, the other seat had to ballasted securely if solo flight was considered.

I once flew a barge solo which didn’t have the bomb mod. The ballast was an RAF holdall full of bricks and a car tyre, strapped to the empty seat.

[POBJOY]

When we started AE flying on a (tasked) regular basis many of the Cadets were quite young and 'light'. Answer to this situation was a spare T21 seat bottom (held in by dot fastner) to which had been bolted a thick slab of lead suitably curved to fit. (Gold was too expensive)
I suspect that the Woolwich Arsenal was the supplier of this 'mod ' as they provided most of the materials for our home built T31 trolleys.

[chevvron]

All Seds at 613 apart from one had provision for a 'bomb'; the sole exception (WB971) was flown solo by the CO, Jacko, who also provided his own built in ballast.
When flying AEG with a lightweight cadet in a Sed, we usually put a Mk 3 solo weight behind his seat.

[longer ron]

Ahem, about your idea of "fun ".....;)...personally, I prefer something a "bit more robust "than,, erm, thin air.

HaHa - the production T21 was not that robust around the cockpit area KnC,whilst I was on the staff at 613 Halton I was getting another Mk3 out of the Bessonneau Hangar with some cadets when one of the cadets told me ''a glider has just crashed sir'' (well he did not know I was just a corporal apprentice :) ) - my initial reaction was of course ''stupid boy'' (or words to that effect) to which he replied ''honest''.
So looks outside and sure enough he was correct,one of our senior instructors had taken off in T21 WB970 with a small/light cadet and I believe without having fitted a 'Bomb' - had low cable break and could not get the nose down - result spun in from (100ft ??).
The T21 woodwork fwd of the cockpit bulkhead was just matchwood with the metal flying control system parts clearly on view,cadet and instructor were not seriously injured luckily.
The Commandant - Air Comm Bob Weighhill was at the scene in his (Austin 1800 ??) before the ambulance -he was a big rugby man and had seen it happen from one of the sports fields.
Eventually we had a lovely albeit rather sad bonfire with the remains of this glider,from memory it was a bit slow to get going but once warmed up - it really went up nicely.

[chevvron]

HaHa - the production T21 was not that robust around the cockpit area KnC,whilst I was on the staff at 613 Halton I was getting another Mk3 out of the Bessonneau Hangar with some cadets when one of the cadets told me ''a glider has just crashed sir'' (well he did not know I was just a corporal apprentice :) ) - my initial reaction was of course ''stupid boy'' (or words to that effect) to which he replied ''honest''.
So looks outside and sure enough he was correct,one of our senior instructors had taken off in T21 WB970 with a small/light cadet and I believe without having fitted a 'Bomb' - had low cable break and could not get the nose down - result spun in from (100ft ??).
The T21 woodwork fwd of the cockpit bulkhead was just matchwood with the metal flying control system parts clearly on view,cadet and instructor were not seriously injured luckily.
The Commandant - Air Comm Bob Weighhill was at the scene in his (Austin 1800 ??) before the ambulance -he was a big rugby man and had seen it happen from one of the sports fields.
Eventually we had a lovely albeit rather sad bonfire with the remains of this glider,from memory it was a bit slow to get going but once warmed up - it really went up nicely.
If that's the one I recall, the pilot was 'Tommy' Thompson; both he and the cadet walked away having slipped out of their harness and the late 'Honey Monster' (Reg Ford) was the investigating officer. Crashed virtually at the launch point having tried to do a 360?
I arrived late having been on morning duty at West Drayton and found Reg in the office reading through the procedure for the investigastion.

[longer ron]

Yep that is the one Chevvron.
I was told it was a spin off a low cable break,as I posted above - I was in the Hangar when it happened and have never seen an accident report for it.I don't remember it being absolutely next to the launch point but not too far up the field - long time ago so I certainly would not argue with anybody about it.
I have always assumed that TT and the cadet were just on or just over the min cockpit load,no bomb fitted and TT could not get the nose down to prevent stall/spin.

[chevvron]

Yep that is the one Chevvron.
I was told it was a spin off a low cable break,as I posted above - I was in the Hangar when it happened and have never seen an accident report for it.I don't remember it being absolutely next to the launch point but not too far up the field - long time ago so I certainly would not argue with anybody about it.
I have always assumed that TT and the cadet were just on or just over the min cockpit load,no bomb fitted and TT could not get the nose down to prevent stall/spin.
Hmm best not to go into it too deeply then:hmm:
Tommy was a nice bloke too; he was wandering about the launch point chain smoking and saying 'that's me finished then'.
I think he started at 613 about the same time as me, along with John Hartill and Nick Nicholls. Tommy had an MGA sports car, gave me a lift to Amersham one day (I lived in Chesham) and we did the ton along the Missenden bypass!

[longer ron]

Tommy was a top bloke - he had a great sense of humour.Not sure what happened to him in the end - he flew with me at least once whilst he was grounded but I cannot remember how long he was grounded for.
I didn't realise he had an MGA,to be fair I do not recall any of the instructors cars except for Jacko's Peugeot with the 613 plate,often parked in the layby up on the top road to spy on us :)

[Tashengurt]

Found my 3822 which shows a paltry 4 glider flights but has answered a question about why my gliding course in '86 was so suddenly ended.
Apparently I wouldn't have had time to complete the course before I joined up in the July.
Seems fair enough, I must have forgotten that over the years as I'd come to believe I was unfairly binned!

[621andy]

The 621HF are now based at Nympsfield and we had a good day out in September... This is the Prefect 'WE992'...https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/p2_eeb1e686a2ea6725bbfa17778f878671bc5c8ac0.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1668x1153/p4_3d0dd6781abe65fdd098b0c15be5c5ba5dfff9ac.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1460x2000/p6_b15a4a29d44bdc8ff8e2c48d7053117c4f7b4f64.jpg

[621andy]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1340x973/p5_01bfb6c07970f53507148c710772881ab04b6aa6.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1580x2000/p7_51504adce5116d5bf71a77a5ed44a44e861b8774.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1695/p8_bf9b9c8058e7cc58b61eb14bb797e90f16a9dc53.jpg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1198/p11_37a719edb0d5dde100a2b500e01e1b2277f6cd23.jpg

[621andy]

The MK3 'XA310' got an airing too...
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1379/m1_36f86d2d4a42a6d7c0d4af289c9eed36926c2a78.jpg

[621andy]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1429/m11_97fa2f61d56ed580b34a262fbcf1ed60770f5ec5.jpg


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/m2_4f7ab32b05459d33b0566e4e67a290eb4a7865ca.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1198/m3_ebe54b37abf9fc6676f56af485cce878dccb30a0.jpg

[621andy]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1198/m4_759e7a7edebecf43521af7928cfd6b5badef4b53.jpg



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1198/m6_a768b26b1d3cf9a7a8060ff3b1eb34bbed0c8a85.jpg



https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1198/n10_786dad2afbe62a42a4021f0ccdc66327add88d28.jpg

[621andy]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1280/5_e5225a638ae9fa345698a522844815a4ea7cc9ec.jpg



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1280/6_ecc9b797e38c6319a9bba6bb526c606d011d7f1e.jpg

[621andy]

And I still fit! Although my child-bearing hips won't allow me a front seat view:p


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1280/1_1142ffe05ef222be62b283dcc709dc178f162059.jpg



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1574x1158/7_6d86a204cf5369a17f650ab0595af4c522955cf2.jpg

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Super Images - Thank You !

[76fan]

Ditto....... takes me way back to ATC gliding at Hendon.

[wub]

Great nostalgia, I’ve flown at Nympsfield and my first solo was in a Prefect. Thanks!

[POBJOY]

Makes you realise what the Corps lost when they 'upgraded'.
Zillions of 'SOLO's', and single seaters that Cadets could fly even at Halesland. !!!!

[621andy]

Makes you realise what the Corps lost when they 'upgraded'.
Zillions of 'SOLO's', and single seaters that Cadets could fly even at Halesland. !!!!

What really brought that home was dragging the ancient but serviceable wooden stuff out of a hangar full of 'unserviceable' glass ships at Hullavington...

We always looked longingly across the airfield at WSM at the high performance Ka6, Skylark 4 and the hot glass ships, but at least we were flying, which is more than can be said for this generation of Cadets:ugh:

[wub]

What really brought that home was dragging the ancient but serviceable wooden stuff out of a hangar full of 'unserviceable' glass ships at Hullavington...

We always looked longingly across the airfield at WSM at the high performance Ka6, Skylark 4 and the hot glass ships, but at least we were flying, which is more than can be said for this generation of Cadets:ugh:

When I flew at WSM we had a T21, a Bocian, a Meise, a Delphin and a Ka6, mostly ‘cool’ ships and we did a lot fewer launches than the ATC on the other side.

[621andy]

I watched your Bocian being cut in half by a runaway tractor:eek: I now work (normally:uhoh:) with one of the owners of the Delfin; Small world!
We did get to fly the Ka6,8 and Skylark on occasions when swapping our old cable for your old cable:oh::p

[wub]

I watched your Bocian being cut in half by a runaway tractor:eek: I now work (normally:uhoh:) with one of the owners of the Delfin; Small world!
We did get to fly the Ka6,8 and Skylark on occasions when swapping our old cable for your old cable:oh::p

I'm amazed the Delfin is still going, it always reminded me of a spoon with wings!

[chevvron]

Makes you realise what the Corps lost when they 'upgraded'.
Zillions of 'SOLO's', and single seaters that Cadets could fly even at Halesland. !!!!
During the period I was a Staff Cadet at 613 Halton, we had 2 Prefects for a period of about 9 months each, '993 and '987 and I thoroughly enjoyed flying both of them.
I'd already got my Soaring Certificate/BGA 'C' Certificate before I was checked out for the Prefect, but in late '66 or early '67, the BGA introduced the 'Bronze C' which, I if I recall correctly, required 2 soaring flights of a minimum 30 min each from a winch launch or one flight of 60 min from an aerotow.
My longest flight was 24 min in Prefect '987 on 5 Apr '67, so I never even got half of a Bronze C!!

[Krystal n chips]

During the period I was a Staff Cadet at 613 Halton, we had 2 Prefects for a period of about 9 months each, '993 and '987 and I thoroughly enjoyed flying both of them.
I'd already got my Soaring Certificate/BGA 'C' Certificate before I was checked out for the Prefect, but in late '66 or early '67, the BGA introduced the 'Bronze C' which, I if I recall correctly, required 2 soaring flights of a minimum 30 min each from a winch launch or one flight of 60 min from an aerotow.
My longest flight was 24 min in Prefect '987 on 5 Apr '67, so I never even got half of a Bronze C!!

As well as the two 30 mins flights, there was also an oral and written exam, plus a dual handling check ride with an instructor.

[chevvron]

As well as the two 30 mins flights, there was also an oral and written exam, plus a dual handling check ride with an instructor.
There is now but in the early days there wasn't.

[Krystal n chips]

There is now but in the early days there wasn't.

I have to disagree given I did my Bronze at "Phoenix G.C " RAF Bruggen in 75 and the criteria I referred to were integral to gaining the badge. I did two handling check rides, one involving recovery from unusual attitudes, incipient spin recovery., stalls and the second involving a medium level simulated cable break with my altimeter covered in bodge tape....same instructor one Tony N-G. ( RIP ).....did the written exam in the workshop, conveniently located for the bar afterwards.

Back to the Cadet Mk3 and why the design and operation of the aircraft allowed so many 16 yr olds ( inc me at Burtonwood ) to safely launch themselves into the air solo.. The irony is the public, in the main, are unaware just how iconic this seemingly unremarkable glider is and how many people subsequently became professionally involved in aviation thanks in no small part to flying the aircraft

[longer ron]

The Bronze Badge requirements have had a bit of an evolution type history - the modern Bronze Badge requirements are totally different to what was required in the 70's/80's.
The exact procedure probably varied a little from club to club
My Bronze quals were similar to KnC - 2 x 30 min soaring flights off the winch (or 2 x 60 min flights off aerotow),Motorfalke flight for some Nav and Field Landing training/evaluation.3 x flights with the CFI for general handling,cable breaks etc including one simulated field landing into a very restricted part of the airfield plus of course written exam and some oral questions by CFI.

In those days the Bronze Badge was the cross country qualification - whereas nowadays there is a Cross Country Endorsment to qualify for x - country flying.

[Krystal n chips]

The Bronze Badge requirements have had a bit of an evolution type history - the modern Bronze Badge requirements are totally different to what was required in the 70's/80's.
The exact procedure probably varied a little from club to club
My Bronze quals were similar to KnC - 2 x 30 min soaring flights off the winch (or 2 x 60 min flights off aerotow),Motorfalke flight for some Nav and Field Landing training/evaluation.3 x flights with the CFI for general handling,cable breaks etc including one simulated field landing into a very restricted part of the airfield plus of course written exam and some oral questions by CFI.

In those days the Bronze Badge was the cross country qualification - whereas nowadays there is a Cross Country Endorsment to qualify for x - country flying.

As you say. an evolving history. The field landing / nav checks were done later, after you'd got a few more hours and soaring flights in the work up to Silver distance flight at Phoenix.

[POBJOY]

During the period I was a Staff Cadet at 613 Halton, we had 2 Prefects for a period of about 9 months each, '993 and '987 and I thoroughly enjoyed flying both of them.
I'd already got my Soaring Certificate/BGA 'C' Certificate before I was checked out for the Prefect, but in late '66 or early '67, the BGA introduced the 'Bronze C' which, I if I recall correctly, required 2 soaring flights of a minimum 30 min each from a winch launch or one flight of 60 min from an aerotow.
My longest flight was 24 min in Prefect '987 on 5 Apr '67, so I never even got half of a Bronze C!!

As I recall one went to Halesland to do an 'advanced course' which meant getting checked out on the Prefect on what was not exactly a large site. The 'extra' bit was going for the BGA 'C' cert (15 mins) and a simple written test.
The 'Bronze' was two 30 mins trips but the ATC in those days was all about getting the max no of Cadets airborne not chasing BGA Certs. In fact the Bronze was quite useful if you wished to get a PPL later as it reduced the power requirement to about 15 Hrs (quite a saving).
The Halesland experience was not exactly endowed with any extra training re 'out landings' which was surprising considering the nature of the site and Tyro Cadets stretching to get that magic 15 mins. Many on the course only had A&B experience and had not flown for some time. However history shows us that it worked, and confirmed that a 'simple system' using basic equipment was just the job for max hands on enjoyment and results. In fact there was more concern with not allowing the transport to go down the local hills back to base (Locking) after flying, so we had to wind our way back via 'Burrington Coombe' , and very pleasant it was. Managed the bronze when we had a Swallow for a w-end in the winter, and found a convenient bit of Cliff that had an onshore breeze but was a bit too far to get to with any reserve. Luckily the airfield had a selection of taxyways that ran to various parking areas so game on and two 40 min flights made.

[longer ron]

As you say. an evolving history. The field landing / nav checks were done later, after you'd got a few more hours and soaring flights in the work up to Silver distance flight at Phoenix.

Definitely some club variation KnC.
The club I did my Bronze at (Daaaarset) was not a 'cross country' club so getting bronze was my ticket to freedom from local soaring - in my newly aquired Libelle 201b :)

[chevvron]

Back to the Cadet Mk3 and why the design and operation of the aircraft allowed so many 16 yr olds ( inc me at Burtonwood ) to safely launch themselves into the air solo.. The irony is the public, in the main, are unaware just how iconic this seemingly unremarkable glider is and how many people subsequently became professionally involved in aviation thanks in no small part to flying the aircraft
I've made this point in the 'other' thread in the military section.
Air Cadets don't 'need' a high perf.glass ship for the 'proficiency' badge (later re-named BGT or Basic Gliding Training badge; probably something else nowadays) as you're initially only trained to 'first' solo and the MK3 fulfilled this role adequately, trouble is no-one makes a 'low performance' trainer nowadays and a true Mk 3 replacement would need designing from scratch.

[WB627]

I've made this point in the 'other' thread in the military section.
Air Cadets don't 'need' a high perf.glass ship for the 'proficiency' badge (later re-named BGT or Basic Gliding Training badge; probably something else nowadays) as you're initially only trained to 'first' solo and the MK3 fulfilled this role adequately, trouble is no-one makes a 'low performance' trainer nowadays and a true Mk 3 replacement would need designing from scratch.

But would it need designing from scratch? What design deficiencies would need to be addressed if it was put back into production? I soloed at Kenly in one and it seemed OK to me, but I'm no expert on this.

[sandringham1]

A better option might be to ask Alexander Schleicher to put the K-13 back into production or get a licence to build them in the UK, you can even have an open cockpit for the wind in hair feel of proper flight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nykIXWw48XA

[chevvron]

But would it need designing from scratch? What design deficiencies would need to be addressed if it was put back into production? I soloed at Kenly in one and it seemed OK to me, but I'm no expert on this.
Same basic Slingsby design but for wooden frame substiture alloy tubes as used in microlights and a modern covering as also used in microlights to replace the doped fabric.

[chevvron]

A better option might be to ask Alexander Schleicher to put the K-13 back into production or get a licence to build them in the UK, you can even have an open cockpit for the wind in hair feel of proper flight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nykIXWw48XA
Isn't that a bit too high performance for the 'needs' of training cadets to solo standard?

[UV]

I have to disagree given I did my Bronze at "Phoenix G.C " RAF Bruggen in 75 t

I was working my way up the Silver ladder at Bruggen in 66 and they “gave” me a Bronze C on the strength of having one Silver C leg!

Managed to finish the Silver with a distance flight to Leige in the Ka2 on my last weekend at Brugen before returning to the UK to start work the following week.

Fantastic experience for an 18 year old! Thank you Phoenix G.C. and Flt.Lt. Ray Passfield.

[Krystal n chips]

I was working my way up the Silver ladder at Bruggen in 66 and they “gave” me a Bronze C on the strength of having one Silver C leg!

Managed to finish the Silver with a distance flight to Leige in the Ka2 on my last weekend at Brugen before returning to the UK to start work the following week.

Fantastic experience for an 18 year old! Thank you Phoenix G.C. and Flt.Lt. Ray Passfield.

That' sounds like fun in a Ka2 !......and probably a better way to get to Liege than driving.....

" Isn't that a bit too high performance for the 'needs' of training cadets to solo standard? "


This is purely hypothetical now, however, the K13 would have been an ideal training aircraft for Cadet Bloggs...it's simple, very benign and easy to fly whilst being robust enough to absorb " firm arrivals ".....excellent view from the rear as well...which is why so many are still in use as a basic trainer today.

[chevvron]

This is purely hypothetical now, however, the K13 would have been an ideal training aircraft for Cadet Bloggs...it's simple, very benign and easy to fly whilst being robust enough to absorb " firm arrivals ".....excellent view from the rear as well...which is why so many are still in use as a basic trainer today.
Got a ride in a Ka7 at Lindholme; was there much difference?

[Krystal n chips]

Got a ride in a Ka7 at Lindholme; was there much difference?

Fair question. There are some. The rear seat view on a Ka7 is restricted in many ways, on the 13, you can see just about everywhere you need to and certainly Cadet Bloggs actions could be easily monitored. . Plus, the 7 could "bite " if mishandled...although it was still a good trainer. The 13, in comparison , was very forgiving...it would happily just "mush " in a gentle stall, recovered very rapidly and smoothly from a full stall, and, as was demonstrated, recovered almost by itself from a full spin or two. Airspeed was also very easy to control and the brakes worked as advertised.

[Mnewton]

Cotswolds 14 year old solos on 14th birthday and wants to join the RAF , that's how you
get kids interested in flying !
https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/18612830.marlow-schoolboy-flies-k13-glider-cotswolds/https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/650x488/gallery_96ba246bb163109ec7b68f165da9317e04cf003b.jpg

[chevvron]

Afraid I don't know the 'solo' age for Air Cadets nowadays; used to be 16 when Mal and I were at 613.

[Fitter2]

Isn't that a bit too high performance for the 'needs' of training cadets to solo standard?
Reminds me of the late 1960s proposal to replace the Cadet Mk 3 with T53s, which would have a fixed stop to lock the airbrakes pertly open. Apparently seriously considered before Slingsbys had a fire which damaged the T53 jigs, leaving only 2 or 3 partly complete airframes.

[papa_sierra]

I think that the Ka7 flown solo was slightly better at soaring than the same flown in a Ka13 due to the uninterrupted wing. I did like the Ka2.

[chevvron]

Reminds me of the late 1960s proposal to replace the Cadet Mk 3 with T53s, which would have a fixed stop to lock the airbrakes pertly open. Apparently seriously considered before Slingsbys had a fire which damaged the T53 jigs, leaving only 2 or 3 partly complete airframes.
Grasshoppers could be fitted with spoilers to prevent them getting airborne during groundslides.

[Spitfirefan01]

Hi,
I'm looking for hi-resolution scans of photographs of the following gliders in use while in ATC service for an article:
Slingsby Cadet TX1
Slingsby Type 21 Sedbergh TX1
Slingsby Type 31 Cadet TX Mk3
A real bonus would be anything of Fred Slingsby himself.
Any images used will be paid for and must be scanned/copied at 300dpi for publication.
Please email me at [email protected] in the first instance if you can help.
Cheers
Andrew

[POBJOY]

Grasshoppers could be fitted with spoilers to prevent them getting airborne during groundslides.

Well the 'Organisation' found an easier way to stop machines getting airborne; A short 'Pause' followed by a very long 'Pause' followed by Nothing!.
A new fleet of MK 3 machines would still be operating 'as was' and Cadets would be still going solo in great numbers. That's the USP they killed.

[621andy]

Well the 'Organisation' found an easier way to stop machines getting airborne; A short 'Pause' followed by a very long 'Pause' followed by Nothing!.
A new fleet of MK 3 machines would still be operating 'as was' and Cadets would be still going solo in great numbers. That's the USP they killed.

That was the ironic thing: We WERE flying the MKIII and the Barge in ATC colours from a normally active VGS field during the 'Pause:*' with the 621 HF at Hullavington:ugh:

[POBJOY]

That was the ironic thing: We WERE flying the MKIII and the Barge in ATC colours from a normally active VGS field during the 'Pause:*' with the 621 HF at Hullavington:ugh:

Wonderful I rest my case P
Sometimes in life simple is best and stays that way, unfortunately the new brooms do not see the 'wood' but only f glass trees. If the RAF Cadets went back to basics and offered what we knew as normal it might just save the organisation, although we could skip the wellies, and would have to go back to all over silver and 'training' yellow; after all it was the largest and best TRAINING organisation in the world. Well done to all those who tried to salve something from the saga, plus those who have stayed with the ship. Pobjoy had his first ever flight some 60 years ago in a MK111 at Kenley, and then had to wait another couple of years to do the A&B bit, it was not just the flying but all that went with it (including the NAAFI pies) an amazing experience never bettered. (the jury's still out on the pies) Merry Xmas

[Fitter2]

I'm sure the Hullavington MkIII and Sedbergh were properly maintained, with records kept of repairs and modifications - unlike the SERCO maintained ATC Fleet....

[POBJOY]

I'm sure the Hullavington MkIII and Sedbergh were properly maintained, with records kept of repairs and modifications - unlike the SERCO maintained ATC Fleet....

The Mobile Glider Servicing Party complete with 3 ton truck kept the fleet in tip top condition without the need for complicated systems. Inspections and repaire were conducted on site and glue repairs cured with the help of a plywood 'lampshade' complete with light bulb. I believe their main tasks were sorting out cracked or broken wheel boxes and if one happened to go into the hangar during the week an 'up ended' fuselage having its box attended to was not uncommon. Simple and superb just like the rest of the operation, and not a lap top in sight.

[Mnewton]

I think it was Mrs Hepple T21 VX275 ? that on a major overhaul they found all the glued joints
in the wing were completely dry and cracked as in not attached, only held in by the covering.
Just found more on Mrs Hepple at https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/60266-vintage-gliders

[POBJOY]

I think it was Mrs Hepple T21 VX275 ? that on a major overhaul they found all the glued joints
in the wing were completely dry and cracked as in not attached, only held in by the covering.
Just found more on Mrs Hepple at https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/60266-vintage-gliders

It is far more likely that 275 (it was quite old) had been constructed with the old non waterproof glues of the time, that used to fail when they stayed damp.
This was a common problem on all early wooden machines and the main reason they failed their COA's later in life.
The replacement 'Aerolite' was a 'two pack' system that required the use of a hardner. and then had to be applied quickly.
To ensure the hardner had been added it was normal for it to be dyed therefore ensuring the joint was sound.
As most ATC gliders were hangar stored I do not think water ingress into the structure was a problem.
On a bit of a 'creep' Gp Capt J Kent obtained a Comper Swift after the war and kept it at Tangmere. When it came up for its COA it went into the Station workshops for its inspection where they found the machine in fine order 'apart' from the glue joints. Normally the labour required for this would be uneconomical, but the C/Tech in charge decided it would be an ideal opportunity for several members on the staff to do their 'trade tests' on the real thing.
They used all the original wood but 'fixed' with aerolite, and that's why the machine survived. The main spars were solid spindled so not affected.

[chevvron]

I think it was Mrs Hepple T21 VX275 ? that on a major overhaul they found all the glued joints
in the wing were completely dry and cracked as in not attached, only held in by the covering.

Would that have been just after I pranged it in 1967?
I groundlooped it and was later told that had it not been a presentation aircraft it would have been Cat 5 (written off); as it was they took it back to Kirbymoorside and re built it and I flew it again a year later.

[VX275]

Mention of an aircraft called Mrs Hepple may confuse some, but this page from the magazine Flight may help.
If anyone is interested VX275 is likely to be put up for disposal by the RAF Museum who have held her in store at RAF Stafford since she finished her time as a maintenance airframe at RAF Saint Athan in the 1980's.

[Mnewton]

VX275 was first flown when I was 2 years old !!!
I wonder how much they would sell it for?
Wonder if you could bungy launch it to 10 feet or so?
I'll put a fiver towards buying it , anyone else?

[chevvron]

VX275 was first flown when I was 2 years old !!!
I wonder how much they would sell it for?
Wonder if you could bungy launch it to 10 feet or so?
I'll put a fiver towards buying it , anyone else?
Why not ask Verdun; the '613 retired winch drivers' group still exists and we must all have '275 in our log books; I'll come in with a fiver; Halton will still exist for a few years yet although what will happen after 2025 is anybody's guess.

[Pegpilot]

Meanwhile, Kirby Cadet Mk III XN246 has been derigged by Southampton Air Museum and appears to be languishing in a shed with one face open to the elements, judging by a 2019 photo on t'internet. She looks to be in a sorry state. Sad. Did my first solo in her at Manston in 1977. If Solent Sky have no plans for her, it would be nice to find her another home. A shame that she's now so unloved by an organisation that was supposed to be looking after her and preserving her memory. And as for winching, my club (Welland) still has a Tost winch mounted on a Bedford RL truck !

[bobward]

Having just skimmed through all these pages I can see very little reference to 611 VGS at Swanton Morely.
I know it's in deep dark Norfolk, but surely there must be somebody apart from me who did their A & B certs here?

[pulse1]

I did my C cat instructor's rating there, or at least most of it. Their winch broke so we had to resort to ATs and couldn't cover cable breaks. F/O Pond had to come to Old Sarum to finish it off.

[chevvron]

Having just skimmed through all these pages I can see very little reference to 611 VGS at Swanton Morely.
I know it's in deep dark Norfolk, but surely there must be somebody apart from me who did their A & B certs here?
Not sure if Swanton was 611 GS (I thought it was in the 64_ GS series) ; I know it became No 1 Gliding Centre when Hawkinge closed in '61 and this operated weekdays with the GS operating weekends.
Swanton got a brief reprieve a couple of years ago when they started Vigilant ops but within a week, ops were teminated again.
Strangely a lot of VGS sites are lying empty eg Halton, Henlow etc whereas at Little Rissington there are 2 VGS on the one site!

[Innominate]

Not sure if Swanton was 611 GS It was 611 in 1973 when I did my course in the May half-term break.

[longer ron]

Not sure if Swanton was 611 GS (I thought it was in the 64_ GS series) ; I know it became No 1 Gliding Centre when Hawkinge closed in '61 and this operated weekdays with the GS operating weekends.

Yes 611 GS was at Swanton Morley
Presumably 611 GS had a similar relationship to No 1 Gliding Centre as 644 GS did to No 2 Gliding Centre (Spitalgate) as was.
I did my initial (weekend) gliding course at 644 Spitalgate ,644 did the weekend training and No2 GC did the weekday courses.
So presumably 611 GS did the weekend courses/AEG at Swanton with No1 GC doing the weekday courses.

[chevvron]

Confusingly, No 613 Sqdn RAF was once based at Swanton flying Mosquitos!
And of course before Spitalgate, No 2 GC was at Kirton in Lindsey from the mid '60s until 1972 operating alongside 643 GS.with No's 1 and 2 GC moving to Syerston in 1975 to become CGS along with 643 and 644..

[Prangster]

643 Kirton in Lindsey and 644 at Hemswell seem absent on parade I soled at the former.

[Democritus]

Meanwhile, Kirby Cadet Mk III XN246 has been derigged by Southampton Air Museum and appears to be languishing in a shed with one face open to the elements. Did my first solo in her at Manston in 1977. ....
I also did my first solo in her, but in March 1962 when she was with 622 at the long gone Christchurch airfield. I took this photo at Solent Sky about 15 years ago...

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/850x565/xn246_579fd54934e28b5c526c6dd75703b527d58490ec.jpg

[POBJOY]

Best value for money airframe any Airforce had anywhere in the World. and has no equal in a fist solo operation. Youngsters nowadays would jump at a chance to sample its ability to get them airborne and then 'go it alone'. A 'wheel ' that did not need reinventing and (on a continuous course) zero to solo in just over an hours actual flight for some. An operation for Cadets run by Cadets 'unbeatable'. This one in a proper 'training command ' livery, because that is what the system did, TRAIN !!

[chevvron]

Best value for money airframe any Airforce had anywhere in the World. and has no equal in a fist solo operation. Youngsters nowadays would jump at a chance to sample its ability to get them airborne and then 'go it alone'. A 'wheel ' that did not need reinventing and (on a continuous course) zero to solo in just over an hours actual flight for some. An operation for Cadets run by Cadets 'unbeatable'. This one in a proper 'training command ' livery, because that is what the system did, TRAIN !!
Totally agree.:ok:

[bobward]

Seeing the picture of the Mk 3 in Solent Sky reminds me of something.
When my daughter was very small, we visited the IWM at Duxford. In one hanger was a Mk 3.
@I used to fly one of those' says a proud Dad.
'Yes, and now it's in a museum' says an unimpressed daughter.
As she was six at the time, I thought that was a rather adult put down.......
Sic Transit Gloria ?

[chevvron]

Best value for money airframe any Airforce had anywhere in the World. and has no equal in a fist solo operation. Youngsters nowadays would jump at a chance to sample its ability to get them airborne and then 'go it alone'. A 'wheel ' that did not need reinventing and (on a continuous course) zero to solo in just over an hours actual flight for some. An operation for Cadets run by Cadets 'unbeatable'. This one in a proper 'training command ' livery, because that is what the system did, TRAIN !!
My treasured logbook shows 39 launches and 2hr 04 min including my first 3 solos. I was a weekend flyer but others on a continuous course did it in about half that time..

[POBJOY]

My treasured logbook shows 39 launches and 2hr 04 min including my first 3 solos. I was a weekend flyer but others on a continuous course did it in about half that time..

The defence rests its case. What a fantastic organisation (complete with wellies and Soapy hats) and before the Raspberry ripple colour scheme and those silly grinding goggles !!!!

[Dan Winterland]

I did mine at 662 VGS (Condor) in the Easter break in 1980. Sent solo by Lovat Fraser after 23 launches and I hour 34 minutes dual time.

[POBJOY]

I know that the system used very basic machines, however it achieved an amazing level of training considering the main operations for 'schools' was on a w-end only basis.
When you add the weather and travel factor plus Cadets had no 'ability streaming' or real pre flight classroom work, how did it all work. I think it worked because no one told us it could not be done that way. There must be lessons that can be learnt from those days that relate to how we approach tasks today. Of course it was very much a 'hands on' operation and I do not recall much in the way of paperwork or written tests. Yet despite this a 16 year old was allowed to do all this on his own after a very limited amount of actual flight time and with an excellent safety record. Could it have been an 'age related' factor that the magic 16 element happened to peak in a combination of confidence and learning ability that enabled total input into the task rather than the the requirement to memorise lots of information. There again was it the Bumble Bee syndrome, we fly because we can and no one told us otherwise. Thank you Air Cadet Gliding you did us proud.

[DaveReidUK]

I did mine at 662 VGS (Condor) in the Easter break in 1980. Sent solo by Lovat Fraser after 23 launches and I hour 34 minutes dual time.

I was amazed to find out recently that one of the Mk 3s that I flew at Arbroath in April 1969 survived there until at least 2012, supposedly "under restoration", and may even be still extant:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x353/xe786_2a__dfd45fdbc889715308858ad825dcb3cca7f0fbb1.jpg

Aircraft Photo of BGA4033 / XE786 | Slingsby T.31B Cadet TX.3 | UK - Air Force | AirHistory.net #56939 (https://www.airhistory.net/photo/56939/BGA4033/XE786)

[treadigraph]

Can't see any Cadets or Sedberghs on the G-reg - are vintage gliders still permitted to fly on the BGA register? ("Slingsby" reveals T-67s, Ventures, Vegas, Darts, Kestrels, etc...)

[VX275]

I know that the system used very basic machines, however it achieved an amazing level of training considering the main operations for 'schools' was on a w-end only basis.
When you add the weather and travel factor plus Cadets had no 'ability streaming' or real pre flight classroom work, how did it all work. I think it worked because no one told us it could not be done that way. There must be lessons that can be learnt from those days that relate to how we approach tasks today. Of course it was very much a 'hands on' operation and I do not recall much in the way of paperwork or written tests. Yet despite this a 16 year old was allowed to do all this on his own after a very limited amount of actual flight time and with an excellent safety record. Could it have been an 'age related' factor that the magic 16 element happened to peak in a combination of confidence and learning ability that enabled total input into the task rather than the the requirement to memorise lots of information. There again was it the Bumble Bee syndrome, we fly because we can and no one told us otherwise. Thank you Air Cadet Gliding you did us proud.

That reminds me of one pupil I was given. Sat in the cockpit for the first time I passed him the FRCs (it was in a Venture) and proceeded to read the Cockpit checks having asked him to follow me. He said "Sorry sir I can't read", having been brought up in the 'wooden fleet' days where FRC's were unknown and all you had to remember was CBSITCB I replied "OK repeat after me".
This cadet is one I am proud of, he memorized the checks and he went solo and if his later life was restricted by his level of literacy at least he could say he had flown an aircraft on his own.

[chevvron]

I know that the system used very basic machines, however it achieved an amazing level of training considering the main operations for 'schools' was on a w-end only basis.
When you add the weather and travel factor plus Cadets had no 'ability streaming' or real pre flight classroom work, how did it all work. I think it worked because no one told us it could not be done that way. There must be lessons that can be learnt from those days that relate to how we approach tasks today. Of course it was very much a 'hands on' operation and I do not recall much in the way of paperwork or written tests. Yet despite this a 16 year old was allowed to do all this on his own after a very limited amount of actual flight time and with an excellent safety record. Could it have been an 'age related' factor that the magic 16 element happened to peak in a combination of confidence and learning ability that enabled total input into the task rather than the the requirement to memorise lots of information. There again was it the Bumble Bee syndrome, we fly because we can and no one told us otherwise. Thank you Air Cadet Gliding you did us proud.
:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[longer ron]

Can't see any Cadets or Sedberghs on the G-reg - are vintage gliders still permitted to fly on the BGA register? ("Slingsby" reveals T-67s, Ventures, Vegas, Darts, Kestrels, etc...)

Yes Treadi - Slingsby Gliders (at least up to the Skylark 4) are operated as Annex 2 gliders with a BGA number/Tri Graph.

[POBJOY]

That reminds me of one pupil I was given. Sat in the cockpit for the first time I passed him the FRCs (it was in a Venture) and proceeded to read the Cockpit checks having asked him to follow me. He said "Sorry sir I can't read", having been brought up in the 'wooden fleet' days where FRC's were unknown and all you had to remember was CBSITCB I replied "OK repeat after me".
This cadet is one I am proud of, he memorized the checks and he went solo and if his later life was restricted by his level of literacy at least he could say he had flown an aircraft on his own.

A wonderful testament of how the 'system' brought out the ability of youngsters to achieve a truly amazing experience (That has never been equalled in ;flight training' ) (Of course all we had to remember was CISTRS or something like that) I still do BUMFFPT* nowadays in the power world. * or something similar when landing having turned the radio off, and decided who is actually in the circuit as opposed to a x country.
I will never forget the 'pile' of wellies that the Cadets had to sort out a pair from !!!

[treadigraph]

Yes Treadi - Slingsby Gliders (at least up to the Skylark 4) are operated as Annex 2 gliders with a BGA number/Tri Graph.

Cheers Longer Ron - assumed the whole lot had transferred across!

[longer ron]

I thought I had lost my old 'P2' Chit forever but came across it today whilst looking for something else.
I got my P2 rating when the CGS Trappers visited Halton during the best month to fly open cockpit in a T31/Mk3.
The 'P2' rating was changed to 'G1' (grade 1) fairly soon after this date.
Now suitably 'Foxed' by age :cool:

https://i.imgur.com/O5BFk9T.jpg

[POBJOY]

As I recall a P2 could be issued by the Gliding School concerned which was useful as there was a lot of Cadet AE flying by the 70's. At Kenley (615) which was not a huge site our 'safety conscious' CO would not issue a P2 for AEF work until one had 100 P1 flights under the belt. A quick way to boost one's flights was to 'help' at a centre for a week or two when you were given a machine to use after the course cadets had done their solo's.
If my memory is correct I do not recall 'any' real classroom briefings for ATC flying at the time, Cadets were briefed in the cockpit and got on with it.

[longer ron]

Not sure about P2 Pobjoy,my 'D' Cat and 'P1' ratings were done locally,maybe P2 could be awarded either way - perhaps by an 'A' Cat on a GS ? I think only the Boss was an A1 Cat on 613 at that time.
I agree that classroom time was rare - perhaps a bit during bad weather days ?
Somebody must have told me about the '45 deg rule' :)

[621andy]

OK, this is a biggie!
A friend of mine has just started producing MKIIIs in resin 1/32 scale:8 The level of detail is phenomenal and as it's obviously a niche model the price reflects that.
But where else are you going to get such an iconic glider in model form:cool:
https://flyingstartmodels.com/Flying-Start-Models-T31B-Cadet-Project.html?fbclid=IwAR09ZjKzmbyUEY_C2Svb1qTSRsy3evxMvAK6x7 RH9OfTyldfyNHOmzQLZzQ

[treadigraph]

OK, this is a biggie!
A friend of mine has just started producing MKIIIs in resin 1/32 scale:8 The level of detail is phenomenal and as it's obviously a niche model the price reflects that.
But where else are you going to get such an iconic glider in model form:cool:
https://flyingstartmodels.com/Flying-Start-Models-T31B-Cadet-Project.html?fbclid=IwAR09ZjKzmbyUEY_C2Svb1qTSRsy3evxMvAK6x7 RH9OfTyldfyNHOmzQLZzQ

That looks bloody marvellous!

I've got a 1/48th resin Sedbergh and possibly a Cadet somewhere, not bad little kits as I recall but nowhere near as nice as that looks.

[851Pilot]

To add to 621andy's post regarding the Flying Start Models 1:32 kit - I've put together a review of this jewel of a model here: https://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/review.php?rid=2427

Highly recommended!

Iain

[chevvron]

To add to 621andy's post regarding the Flying Start Models 1:32 kit - I've put together a review of this jewel of a model here: https://www.largescaleplanes.com/reviews/review.php?rid=2427

Highly recommended!

Iain
Not every Mk 3 was built with spoilers; the 5 or 6 we had at Halton in '64/'65 certainly didn't have them (I think I woiuld have noticed because I flew them all at some time during my Proficiency course) although one was delivered in about 1966 after being refurbished at Slingsbys, so maybe the spoilers were a retro fit? I'm not sure.

[Consulman]

I can also confirm that not all Mk III had spoilers. I did my Proficiency with 637 GS at RAF Gaydon in 1969 and all (5?) did not have them fitted - no use really on a 2.5 mile runway!
However when we transferred to RAF Little Rissington in 1978 we were re-equipped with spoilered MK IIIs.
I seem to recall being told by a MGSP chap that the spoilers were fitted during Major Servicing - oh what fun to create asymmetric drag from the back seat by pulling one of the cables!

[ACW562]

WB 927 was hand built at Hooton. Then an RAF station.

[chevvron]

Not sure about P2 Pobjoy,my 'D' Cat and 'P1' ratings were done locally,maybe P2 could be awarded either way - perhaps by an 'A' Cat on a GS ? I think only the Boss was an A1 Cat on 613 at that time.
I agree that classroom time was rare - perhaps a bit during bad weather days ?
Somebody must have told me about the '45 deg rule' :)
Did my P1 at 613 Halton with the then CFI Phil Plows; missed out on the 'D' cat because Phil gave me the P1 as a sort of 'reward' because it was near the end of a summer course and I had been the sole winch driver.
Some time later, Ken Bayliss (aka 'KGB') the next CFI at 613 did my P2 checks after 5 launches on a rough day with a strong crosswind.

[POBJOY]

There must still be a 'lesson to be learned' from that (simple but safe) training system 'that was' that could solo a non selected youngster in just over an hours actual flight time** without prescribed classroom work or a set of 'pilots notes'.
I look back in wonder how it 'just worked' and of course when the mainstream RAF cottoned on to the fact that these 'volunteers' were operating without an actual classroom scenario it must have been a bit of a shock.
I know the machines were simple, but did it happen because no one told us it would not work like that. Anyway work it did until someone reinvented the wheel and it fell off. Perhaps it was to do with the activity that made it happen with lots of hands on involvement so you got used to seeing others seemingly getting on with it without much fuss. As an exercise in youth decision making I really think it was incredible and something that stayed with you for ever. I also think that todays 'managers' would be better off given the chance to go through that system that gave us the opportunity to self develop at the right time in life.
** including cable breaks
The change to the raspberry ripple scheme looks dreadful and the safety goggles a joke. At least the MK 8 looked the part even if they were not really needed (other than for photo's) and went well with a soapy hat.

[chevvron]

It was all predicated on 'teamwork'.
Even a brand new cadet arriving for AEG would be told 'put your foot on that wingtip' and thus be given something to do. Staff cadets, not much older than those new cadets, would brief you on what bits you could touch and what bits not eg the handholds forward of the tailplane and the 'rim' of the cockpit; you would always be told what to do and you were there to fly so you took it all in and retained it for next time.
Then under the watchful eye of a staff cadet once again, you were told 'wing up six inches', then 'wings level' etc.
People like you and I Pob were essential to the workings of the school and in turn, we bestowed knowledge and ability on the ab initio cadets and of course at the same time, we were learning from the instructors and passing their knowledge on.
Best gliding club in the world and all free; now gone.
I have to add that, later in life when I became an ATCO and was lucky enough to be posted to Farnborough to scrounge flights in things like Wessex, Puma, and Lynx helicopters, I found them comparatively easy to handle in the air and during low hover operations and I'm convinced my experience of low speed flight in Air Cadet gliders helped with this.

[POBJOY]

It was all predicated on 'teamwork'.
Even a brand new cadet arriving for AEG would be told 'put your foot on that wingtip' and thus be given something to do. Staff cadets, not much older than those new cadets, would brief you on what bits you could touch and what bits not eg the handholds forward of the tailplane and the 'rim' of the cockpit; you would always be told what to do and you were there to fly so you took it all in and retained it for next time.
Then under the watchful eye of a staff cadet once again, you were told 'wing up six inches', then 'wings level' etc.
People like you and I Pob were essential to the workings of the school and in turn, we bestowed knowledge and ability on the ab initio cadets and of course at the same time, we were learning from the instructors and passing their knowledge on.
Best gliding club in the world and all free; now gone.
I have to add that, later in life when I became an ATCO and was lucky enough to be posted to Farnborough to scrounge flights in things like Wessex, Puma, and Lynx helicopters, I found them comparatively easy to handle in the air and during low hover operations and I'm convinced my experience of low speed flight in Air Cadet gliders helped with this.

Well said sunbeam, you actually started to handle a real aircraft within minutes of arriving on site, after that nothing seemed impossible or unusual.
We could do it all again. Of course being mentored by other Cadets made it all very 'do able', not rocket science. Then we piled them all in the 1 ton Austin and another Cadet drove them off to lunch, frequently the long way round (for fun) to pick up the winch drivers. Our Austin was an open back pick up with a turret hole next to the driver, usually seen with a course Cadet with his body stuck out of it wishing he had a 50 caliber !!.
Never had a reason to unload the spare wheel that was on a ramp behind the cab 'thank goodness'.

[sheepless]

There must still be a 'lesson to be learned' from that (simple but safe) training system 'that was' that could solo a non selected youngster in just over an hours actual flight time** without prescribed classroom work or a set of 'pilots notes'.
I look back in wonder how it 'just worked' and of course when the mainstream RAF cottoned on to the fact that these 'volunteers' were operating without an actual classroom scenario it must have been a bit of a shock.
I know the machines were simple, but did it happen because no one told us it would not work like that. Anyway work it did until someone reinvented the wheel and it fell off. Perhaps it was to do with the activity that made it happen with lots of hands on involvement so you got used to seeing others seemingly getting on with it without much fuss. As an exercise in youth decision making I really think it was incredible and something that stayed with you for ever. I also think that todays 'managers' would be better off given the chance to go through that system that gave us the opportunity to self develop at the right time in life.
** including cable breaks
The change to the raspberry ripple scheme looks dreadful and the safety goggles a joke. At least the MK 8 looked the part even if they were not really needed (other than for photo's) and went well with a soapy hat.
Can't agree more. Swanton Morley in 1968 - first course I could get on after passing 16. Being able to actually touch and fly an aircraft was magic. As you say solo after an hour. I do recall a few rules. End of crosswind above a certain height right turn into downwind. Final figure of 8 if too high. DON'T TOUCH THE SPOILERS.
Fantastic for a 16 year old. Totally convinced me a career in aviation was for me. (Although not in the forces)

[Prangster]

Don't forget most cadets did quite a bit of classroom work meandering from Ist Class to staff cadet picking up useful knowledge along the way and though subjects were poured into our lugholes in bite sized chunks they non the less contributed to safe operations of not jut the GS fleet but the AEF Chipmunks as well.
PS out Mk 111's had spoilers 643 and 644 GS

[POBJOY]

Don't forget most cadets did quite a bit of classroom work meandering from Ist Class to staff cadet picking up useful knowledge along the way and though subjects were poured into our lugholes in bite sized chunks they non the less contributed to safe operations of not jut the GS fleet but the AEF Chipmunks as well.
PS out Mk 111's had spoilers 643 and 644 GS

I do not recall our ACP books had any Gliding info, although they did cover principles of flight and basic instruments. (no instruments in a MK 3).
For most Cadets their first (and only) hands on 'contact' with an aircraft was in the gliding world. It started with getting them out of the hangar and went from there until they were put back later. This was an important part of the operation as after the first day you had covered most of the ground handling and also launching. Remember before control caravans became available there was no airfield facility for signalling or briefing and Cadets were briefed in the cockpit. Then there was the use of BATS which was the primary method of launch control before mounted aldis lights came about. On some airfields you had to have a midfield BAT man to pass on the signals. This was a lonely post usually situated on a high point or possibly an old pill box. I do not think anybody actually died doing this, but I do recall they could be forgotten at times and had to revived with hot drinks. Of course the secret of the whole operation was everyone was involved all the time on some task or other, and before retrieve trolleys were the norm there was lots of walking back with gliders to the launch point. If you were unfortunate enough to have a Sedburgh out on the field when a squall came through then it was festooned with Cadets to hold it down with a couple in the cockpit holding the spoilers out. By the time it came to your turn to fly YOU WERE PART OF THE SYSTEM and knew what to do. Utterly brilliant operation all run by volunteers, and eventually all let down by numpties at head office.

[chevvron]

I seem to recall at some time during my proficiency course I was given a typed sheet of multiple choice questions to complete about various scenarios during training.
One of the questions asked you what to do if you had a cable break, the answer being
1 Operate the cable release
2 Hold the stick fully forward
3 Hold the spoilers fully open.
For which you needed 3 hands!!
That was the only written material we were given; we were never given the results and presumably it was just put in your file afterwards (if indeed we had individual files)

[POBJOY]

I seem to recall at some time during my proficiency course I was given a typed sheet of multiple choice questions to complete about various scenarios during training.
One of the questions asked you what to do if you had a cable break, the answer being
1 Operate the cable release
2 Hold the stick fully forward
3 Hold the spoilers fully open.
For which you needed 3 hands!!
That was the only written material we were given; we were never given the results and presumably it was just put in your file afterwards (if indeed we had individual files)

Well that rather makes the point about 'written information' I suspect that should have been a multiple choice question with one answer. The correct answer being pull cable release 3 times. Answers 2&3 would result in 2 :- bunting into the ground or 3:- pushing the wheel box through rear seat.
In fact the correct answer would have been Lowering nose, operate cable release, fly the aircraft , (that would take about 4 secs) check height and then 'depending on height' Land straight ahead, over 150 ft a dog leg turn and land. over 400 ft a mini circuit. As this was over 50 years ago I rest my case on that info, as it is memory, and fretwork fighter based. On a large airfield this could be more relaxed but on a hot day at Kenley it was fairly tight with no wind. The important thing was the cadets needed to be able to do balanced turns, once that was sorted they were in total control of most situations.
The intermediate CB was the important one to get right, and that was a very good lesson in real decision making, but by then Cadets were used to making final turns at 200 ft as the norm, so it was 'do-able'. Now with hindsight it seems amazing that it was considered normal, but it worked and stood the test of time. Of course it was very much a 'visual' operation requiring a clear horizon to take up the normal gliding attitude which was then checked against the ASI. (35). I think there was then an increase below 400 ft to (40) so as not to be slow in the final turn, then a slight increase to allow for wind. PFL's in the power world were a doddle after that.

[chevvron]

Yes it doesn't look quite right does it? Maybe I am getting mixed up between multiple choice and ordinary questions.
Anyway to continue: circuits.
I think we must have been taught slightly different things depending on the airfield, you were at a small airfield hemmed in by houses and on a hill whereas we had flat wide open countryside. The way I remember it is :-
After release (Mk3 and Sedbergh) fly at stalling speed +7kts. At about 400ft, increase speed by 5 kts. Turn final at 150ft and increase speed again by one third of the surface wind speed to compensate for 'wind gradient'.
Simple.

[Prangster]

I do not recall our ACP books had any Gliding info, although they did cover principles of flight and basic instruments. (no instruments in a MK 3).
For most Cadets their first (and only) hands on 'contact' with an aircraft was in the gliding world. It started with getting them out of the hangar and went from there until they were put back later. This was an important part of the operation as after the first day you had covered most of the ground handling and also launching. Remember before control caravans became available there was no airfield facility for signalling or briefing and Cadets were briefed in the cockpit. Then there was the use of BATS which was the primary method of launch control before mounted aldis lights came about. On some airfields you had to have a midfield BAT man to pass on the signals. This was a lonely post usually situated on a high point or possibly an old pill box. I do not think anybody actually died doing this, but I do recall they could be forgotten at times and had to revived with hot drinks. Of course the secret of the whole operation was everyone was involved all the time on some task or other, and before retrieve trolleys were the norm there was lots of walking back with gliders to the launch point. If you were unfortunate enough to have a Sedburgh out on the field when a squall came through then it was festooned with Cadets to hold it down with a couple in the cockpit holding the spoilers out. By the time it came to your turn to fly YOU WERE PART OF THE SYSTEM and knew what to do. Utterly brilliant operation all run by volunteers, and eventually all let down by numpties at head office.

Theory of flight ACP had a page or two on glider aerodynamics and the met APC discussed thermal generation though I suspect the latter was included tongue in cheek given the MK 111 brick tendency, then again I recall and incident where a Corps Barge ended up being sucked into a cu nim handing the crew some sort of endurance record. Can anyone throw light on the incident ? Our CO was always wary of any latent thunder in the area and quick to call a halt if it looked to be heading our way.

[longer ron]

Theory of flight ACP had a page or two on glider aerodynamics and the met APC discussed thermal generation though I suspect the latter was included tongue in cheek given the MK 111 brick tendency, then again I recall and incident where a Corps Barge ended up being sucked into a cu nim handing the crew some sort of endurance record. Can anyone throw light on the incident ? Our CO was always wary of any latent thunder in the area and quick to call a halt if it looked to be heading our way.

Derek Piggott and Cadet Brian Whatley

Detling ran a series of week-long courses for gliding school instructors. The staff instructors there also visited all the week-end schools twice a year to spread the word. The number of pupils qualifying for their ‘A’ and ‘B’ certificate increased and the accident rate fell dramatically. To raise the School’s profile they entered two T-21 Sedbergh gliders in the 1953 National Championships, the justification being that it would be valuable experience for the ATC cadets they took with them to help rig and de-rig the gliders. The T-21 was a hopeless competition glider. Its slow, stately tight circles were good for gaining height in thermals but with a gliding angle of just 18:1 got it nowhere when trying to travel cross country.
Derek launched on a distance task one day when clouds were building rapidly. He soon found a good thermal which lifted him to the base of a large cloud building over Sheffield. The Sedbergh had only basic instruments - airspeed indicator, turn and slip indicator, variometer, to show rate of climb/descent and altimeter – there was no artificial horizon. Most pilots would avoid flying in cloud with such a limited panel. It is very easy for a turn to develop into a spiral dive. Derek was skilled enough to keep the Sedbergh circling in the rapidly lifting thermal and enjoyed a remarkable rate of climb. The cloud was building into a thunderstorm.

The altimeter wound past 10,000 ft. Alongside Derek sat Cadet Whalley. With nothing to do or see he was bored, getting colder and increasingly frightened. He kept asking to go down. Derek tried to keep him interested in the possibility of breaking a record – the gain of height in a two seater glider was becoming a possible achievement. Derek couldn’t remember what the figure was so he determined to extract the maximum from the cloud’s lift. Continuing the climb he encouraged Brian Whalley to keep awake and to breathe deeply to improve his oxygen intake. The occasional sharp elbow was needed from time to time. Eventually, the thermal became ragged and they could climb no higher. Derek straightened up to head downwind. They popped out of the side of the cu-nim at 17,000 ft. The record for this unlikely glider was firmly in the bag (without oxygen, without parachutes and improperly dressed). From such a height, even a Sedbergh can go a long way. They still had height to burn off when they reached the coast and landed in a field near Grimsby.

[chevvron]

There was a record of some sort set by an instructor and cadet in a Sedbergh at Camphill, Derbyshire in the '50s. I've got the book somewhere in my loft but I can't remember the exact details so it's probably the same one as related by longer ron.

[longer ron]

I think I originally read about the record breaking T21 flight in an article called Red 31 Airborne

Interesting that Piggott had declared Grimsby as the goal (downwind) but obviously did not expect to achieve it in such a spectacular fashion :)

Some excerpts from The Powerless Ones by Mike Cummings - Page 165 onwards

Piggott would be taking up Red 31 with a member of 2157 (Mitcham) Squadron, newly promoted Flight Sergeant Brian Whatley, sitting alongside him in the role of co-pilot navigator. The three cadets had put their names into a hat to determine the order of flying in the championships and it was now the turn of young Whatley, whom Piggott had picked up at Hyde Park Corner the previous Saturday to give him a lift up to the championships. It had been an ignominious start because the truck Piggott was using had broken down on the way to London, and while repairs were being carried out Whatley had been kept waiting and wondering for five hours on the pavement, squatting on his bags, expecting every minute that the truck would soon be driving up. At 17, Brian Whatley was quite recently out of school and was learning to be a motor fitter like his father. In the one-week gliding course at Detling the previous summer he had gone solo after only 11 launches, a creditable performance.
Map in hand, Piggott took Whatley to one side. "We'll have one go at getting away," he told the boy. "I've been watching the wind. If we can manage to get away we shall find ourselves heading in this direction'' here he traced a path with his forefinger across the map "There's an airfield here, look, Grimsby. We'll set that as our goal." They spent some minutes attending to the formalities, reported their flight intentions to the contest officials, made a final check with the met. men and perused the equipment before preparing for the winch launch. Camphill was springing to life as one after another of the competitors decided to take a chance with the unexpected easing in the weather. Luring them on was the knowledge that valuable points were to be won; conditions were far from ideal but there was little choice when points were vital. However slight the prospects, anyone who succeeded in getting away would secure some points, whereas failure to make an attempt must mean a nil score on the tally sheets for that event. A bumpy ride was certain but Piggott and the A.T.C. cadet had only one thought, and that was to get airborne while there was any possibility of doing so that day. Red 31 was going up ... Whilst she may not have been the entrant with the highest performance, Red 31 certainly possessed some virtues all her own. She was a hefty glider, perhaps twice the bulk of the streamlined, high-performance jobs that graced the parking lots on Camphill, and it was from her size that she drew one tremendous advantage.
They were climbing fast, with the needle of the altimeter clocking up the hundreds of feet as steadily as a seconds hand sweeping around the face of a clock. It was fascinating to watch that rotating hand. Five thousand ft., 5,500 ft., 6,000 ft., 6,500 ft. The last 1,000 ft. had taken only 45 seconds. Almost in disbelief, Piggott tapped the altimeter glass with his knuckles. It was O.K. The variometer bore witness to the spectacular rise, too, for it was still clicking away vigorously "Listen to that," chuckled Piggott, "just listen to that ..." For young Whatley, at least, conditions aboard Red 31 were becoming more and more uncomfortable for one basic reason: the higher the glider rose, the lower the temperature fell. "Crikey," exclaimed Piggott, "we're bound to cop some ice at this rate. It's certain to affect the handling. Still, not to worry!''
Under normal circumstances the glider would not have exceeded 5,000 or 6,000 ft., but by now she had sailed way above this level. Whatley was not equipped for these heights, for this was an open cockpit craft and beneath his A.T.C. tunic he wore only a shirt and jumper. He had on a pair of leather gloves, Wellington boots and his beret; he had no flying helmet, nor goggles, which might have helped to keep his head, ears and nose warm. He glanced across at his officer but he was apparently unconcerned about the cold. Looking directly above his head, Whatley saw an unfamiliar sparkle along the leading edge of the mainplane. Ice! It was glistening on the smooth surface from wing-tip to wing-tip. He watched with fascination as the ice thickened. Frost was forming on his and Piggott's overalls, growing like a fungus in some science-fiction film, as the glider maintained a circling climb.
Again the officer asked if the boy felt he would pass out under these extreme conditions. Whatley tried to speak but the words wouldn't form; he tried to shake his head but he couldn't move. He felt crippled and in agony. He wanted to quit, but how could he? He couldn't let down the man at his side the man who, despite the same cold and the same shortage of oxygen, had managed to keep them flying in the face of danger without a grumble or a trace of self-pity. A man who simply said it was "damned cold" and hadn't even realised that his hand had frozen around the control column. Whether he wanted to do so or not, Brian Whatley just had to stick it out until Red 31 tottered on the top of the thermal and Piggott eased off into the homeward glide.
Piggott spotted his airfield goal at last and positioned himself for landing. It was coming up to 6.30 pm; they'd been in the air for almost three hours an hour in getting away, an hour and a half or thereabouts in the cloud on the ascent and no more than 20 or 30 minutes in the descent from the cloud cap. He was justifiably elated; a gain-of-height record in their pockets, so it seemed, and maximum points for reaching their goal. It only remained for him to find someone to clock them in for proof to satisfy the contest umpires two counties distant in Derbyshire. He saw then that the airfield he had selected was ominously deserted. "All right, son?" asked the pilot. Whatley managed a smile and a nod. "Yes, thanks, Sir. Oh, congratulations. It was a tremendous achievement. But I'm sorry I wasn't much use to you, Sir." "Oh, yes, you were!" answered Piggott. "One word from you and we would have had to pack it in!"

[Prangster]

Thanks for the heads up, never realized the launch was from Camphill When I was in intensive care in Sheffield the guy in the next bed was Derbyshire Gliding Clubs CFI who'd failed to follow one of his own cardinal rules. 'Don't' turn back if caught in sink on the western side of the hill, land out if you can't find a thermal'. He tried and hit one of the many dry stone walls.. One of the nurses thought it funny that they'd got two glider pilots in the same bay. I walked out, sadly he didn't.

[jimjim1]

I was amazed to find out recently that one of the Mk 3s that I flew at Arbroath in April 1969 survived there until at least 2012, supposedly "under restoration", and may even be still extant:


That's amazing. I was at Arbroath for the A&B likely March/April 70. I can't exactly recall and when I went to look at the certificate, which I have stored carefully, it is absent!

I did get a severe telling off. I had done 20-ish dual + 1 solo at Ouston on the T.21 and was unable to complete the course at that session.

Months later I am on the Mk 3 at Arbroath for a complete new course, 20 + 3. On one of my first dual landings I gently opened the spoilers as had been routine on the T.21. As I recall I was a bit high on finals which is no bad thing, gently applied a small amount for a short while, retracted them and then landed uneventfully. The landing would have been fine without the spoilers too, just a bit further up the field. Well, it was uneventful until after the run out. I then got a bit of an ear bashing. No more spoilers:)

Use of the spoilers had not been mentioned and I knew about enough to get into trouble.

It was very noticeable that the Mk3 had poor performance vs the T.21. As I recall, 3 minute flights vs 4+ on the T.21. Solo in 1 hour of flight vs 1 hour 20 mins:D

I didn't know it had all stopped until I read it here.

[chevvron]

Use of spoilers which were retro-fitted to Mk 3s was banned in about 1966 apart from instructors and P2s/G1s who were allowed to use them down to 50ft agl; below this height spoilers had to be shut.
This didn't apply to Sedberghs.

[WB627]

I remember using the spoilers on a Mk 3 at Kenley in 1973. I also remember my second solo where I got rather a lot of height off the winch and deployed the spoilers as soon as I released the cable, but I was still going up rather quickly :uhoh:. It wasn't until was half way down the down wind leg that I started loosing height and I had to extend before turning crosswind, as I was still too high :mad:. Spoilers open all the way from cable release until just before touch down; Best of my three solos :)

The least said of my fist solo when I disappeared behind a line of trees on the down wind leg, the better :O .

As they say, I learnt about flying from that.