GATWICK

[Dnomyar19]

All of those four have tried it, failed, and abandoned the route. Why would any of them want to try again?

[Skipness One Echo]

BA just dumped JFK-LGW again and both DL and CO opted to move their New York ops to Heathrow, as did Virgin many moons ago. LGW is bucket and spade territory these days.

[adfly]

I just thought that one of the airlines would operate a single daily service to support those routes but it appears they all prefer Heathrow!!

[thebeehive]

LGW-JFK was a slot warmer for LCY-JFK.

With such a large number of LHR-NYC flights why bother with lower yielding LGW-NYC?

DL did it but moved it to LHR as soon as possible.

[Flightrider]

LGW-JFK was a slot warmer for LCY-JFK.

Absolute rubbish. The decision to launch LGW-JFK was taken at a time when Silverjet and Eos were still going strong and were pulling some numbers of premium passengers from the Gatwick catchment area who, before their arrival, had used BA and other carriers' premium cabins ex LHR. If you lived in Brighton, Croydon, Tunbridge Wells etc and had to drive, you might as well to go LTN or STN which was easier and cheaper than LHR.

The logic was that a four-class LGW-JFK service would get the traffic back to BA by providing a service from people's doorsteps. Silverjet and Eos had both vanished by the time LGW-JFK started, but the BA service didn't outlast them by all that long!

[thebeehive]

LGW-JFK was introduced to steal premium traffic? hardly. - Anyway, even if that was true it was very misjudged because the W/J/F loads were AWFUL for BA on the LGW-JFK route, as they were when the airline operated the route on a 767 back before 9/11.

[Random Flyer]

BA just dumped JFK-LGW again and both DL and CO opted to move their New York ops to Heathrow, as did Virgin many moons ago. LGW is bucket and spade territory these days.


LHR-NYC might have higher yields than LGW-NYC; however I would bet LGW-NYC will have much higher yields and loads than BFS/EDI and BRS-NYC, yet these airports still have at least 1 flight per day direct to NYC while LGW has none.

[Feet on ground]

Randon Flyer

I think you'll find the BRS/EDI etc (the regions) to NYC have better yields that LGW-NYC. LGW-NYC has problems because for the business traveller there is a very high frequency alternative 40 miles up the road at LHR, so the to/from London business market goes there. The high frequency at LHR, driven by the business market, means there are far more economy seats there than the market really needs, as well as Air India etc with 5th freedom rights, this combination means that the leisure market fares from London are artificially low to try and fill this glut of capacity. That means that LGW services have minimal high yield business traffic, and very low yield leisure traffic, an unsustainable combination.

When you look at the regions, they don't have the proportionately high volumes of business traffic, but their leisure markets are stronger yielding because the alternatives for the leisure markets are the cost of getting to London plus the cheap fares available from there. So a good chunk of the leisure market in the regions would be prepared topay a premium (compared to LON leisure yields) to avoid making that journey to/from London. This logic applies to both passengers travelling to NYC as their final destination, and I'm sure in many cases beyond NYC in the States.

[globetrotter79]

XO Airways?

Does anyone know anything about the rumoured planned start up of this French operator based at Angouleme? I believe they are a 'paper airline' planning to charter in capacity to serve ANG-LGW route from this summer, to replace the Ryanair ANG-STN route, and I am given to understand they may already have some arrangements in place (slots etc) at LGW to cover this?

That said, the Angouleme/Cognac Airport authority seem to have a problem with the plan as, from their website homepage [http://www.aeroport-angouleme-cognac.com/index.html], they appear to be doing their very best to distance themselves from the plan. Very bizarre?!

[adfly]

According to wiki Kamair are going to start a service from LGW to Kabul!!-Its supposed to be coming soon, can anyone shed any light on this??

[flyzen]

XO Airways +++
Seems to be off, website closed ...
... an other project piloted by the local Chamber of Commerce using an aircraft from Cityline Hungary exists, to replace ryanair, with flights planned to LGW
in french only ... Une compagnie hongroise à la place de Ryanair à Angoulème | Air Journal (http://www.air-journal.fr/2010-03-24-une-compagnie-hongroise-a-la-place-de-ryanair-a-angouleme-52380.html)
Does project will become "real flights" ???

[ChalfontFlyer]

Looks like Cityline SWISS are planning to start the Angouleme route from starting 2nd June with 3 flights per week using MD83's.

Link to their website: CityLine Swiss - Flight from Angoulene to London Gatwick (http://www.citylineswiss.com/)

Anyone know anymore about them as the details on the site are limited? Link with Citylink Hungary who are predominatly a cargo operator with just one passenger 737-200?

[conti onepass]

didnt manchester new york get scraped in favour of a new service from gatwick?????? another load of utter rubbish from BA. manchester was pretty full every day..

[Peter47]

The problem is that you can be full of low yield traffic and still make a loss. The break even load factor of economy in low season can be well over 100%.

A number of UK - USA routes outside London have been started, achieved high load factors but discontinued as unprofitable.

I suspect that the problem with LGW - NYC is critical mass. I remember British Airtours operating LGW - EWR twice weekly with a 707 to keep a competitor off a route such was the lack of demand for EWR. Now demand is high. If a major operator wee to open a hub at LGW demand would soon appear.

Not likely to happen though.

[Skipness One Echo]

As has been mentioned a hundred times on here, you can fly 100% full year round and still lose money if they're all in economy. Particularly as London-New York has so many seats to sell, they need the high fares up the front to make a profit. MAN-JFK didn't achieve enough of these high yielding fares to counterbalance the economy fares down the back, couple that to BA not feeding at either end of the route and a high cost base and they lost money.

LGW-JFK always lost money as there was too much choice on LHR-JFK close by. As soon as the IS carriers could, they moved to Heathrow. Added to the fact that Continental is axing BRS-EWR in favour of another LHR-EWR rotation it's a no brainer. You go where the business and ther profits are, not where Mr Anorak would like to see more planes. :ugh:

[True Blue]

On the airline's UK site there is now an announcement of the first flight to Baghdad departing Lgw 17th April. On Lgw arrivals this evening is IA 237 due 2310 from Baghdad/Malmo. I know these were cancelled due current situation. My question is, is this service now started, if so, what are the details, like frequency etc?

True Blue

[LGWWelsh]

Yes it was due to start but the current situation has prevented this from happening. It will be a twice weekly service using a 737-400 operated by TorAir a Swedish wet lease operator.

[Random Flyer]

Anything new from the charters next year worth noting?

[richxby]

Does anyone know why the Cubana a/c has been on the ground for a few days?

[vespasia]

this thread

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/413608-cubana-low-level-fuel-dump.html

:ok:

[LGWWelsh]

Detained by the UK CAA due to A/C airworthiness. Will remain there until the CAA are happy for it to be released.

[compton3bravo]

Just looked on the arrivals board for London Gatwick on the website - what an absolute shambles. Still showing expected flights for the end of April would you believe and the beginning of May!
Get a grip somebody please, it is a total disgrace.

[oldbalboy]

totally agree, as crew based there its the easiest way to track my up coming duties but now having to trawl through lists of flts for as far back as may 1st!!! cant take a lot to clear the 'old' flts and keep it up to date especially considering the number of delays due ash cloud, must really be hacking off the fare paying customers!

[True Blue]

The Lgw on-line timetable is showing Gothenberg from 6th Sept with Ezy. Not yet showing on the Easyjet system, is this a new route not yet announced?

True Blue

[Seljuk22]

Sorry if it was mentioned before but Tunis Air starts (if the sky is clear) twice weekly flights to Monastir and Djerba these days.

[Airlift21]

All flights fromm Angouleme to Gatwick have been cancelled until at least Autumn 2010. According to CitylineSwiss, the Angouleme Airport authorities have failed to fulfill their side of the agreement with the airline. At least thats what they told me when my flight to LGW was cancelled. Anyone got any more info on this?

[Charlie Roy]

All flights fromm Angouleme to Gatwick have been cancelled until at least Autumn 2010. Some tiny random airline operating some tiny random route is never going to work in the long run. London to Angoulême will only ever work with Ryanair (if they can be tempted back) or maybe even better Flybe (although they already fly to Limoges).

Airports like Limoges, Poitiers, La Rochelle, Bergerac, (brand new) Brive, and even Bergerac and Bordeaux are all competing against each other for UK routes. It's a pity for Angoulême, it really is, but CitylineSwiss will never be the answer to their prayers. If they're that desperate for a route to London they should just let Ryanair operate there for half nothing...

[Airlift21]

Charlie Roy,
I can see your point. I've now booked another flight on the same day from Bordeaux to Gatwick with BA. If those airports are competing with each other then I seem to have got the best deal - quite cheap compared to the other operators on the same day from the other airports! :ok:

[BAladdy]

Just noticed that BA have a 162 seater A320 operating flights ex LGW tomorrow and Wednesday.

On Tuesday it is due to operate

BA2936/BA2937/BA2940/BA2941/BA2588/BA2589
LGW/EDI/LGW/EDI/LGW/VCE/LGW

On Wednesday it is due to operate

BA2362/BA2363/BA2960/BA2961/BA8039/BA8040
LGW/MRS/LGW/GLA/LGW/JER/LGW

Does anyone know if this is to cover a A319/734 that is tech or is this a permenant thing?. Are the cabin crew at LGW A320 trained?.

Thanks in advance for anymore info.

[Charlie Roy]

Does anyone know if this is to cover a A319/734 that is tech or is this a permenant thing?

It's probably a wet lease covering during the strike, no?

[BAladdy]

Nope checked that it is definatly gonna be operated by one of BA's A320's.

They recently reconfigured them from 156 to 162 seaters.

If BA charter a aircraft it shows as operated by that airline.

This is showing operated by British Airways

[cornishsimon]

by all accounts according to another forum one 734 is down at the moment and 2 A320's are over at LGW to increase capacity and allow customers to be transferred from LHR to LGW during the strike!

CS

[Skipness One Echo]

I saw G-EUYA heading out on the BAW2686 on 23rd May which was surprising seeing a newish Airbus at LGW. Given that the B734s are pretty long in the tooth now and there has been no order for replacement metal, will LGW short haul survive the retirement of the 737?

LHR doesn't have 20 spare Airbuses I'm sure.

[Serenity]

Had heard down the line from some BA managers that the 73s are not being replaced, gone by about 2012!!!

[BAladdy]

Todays A320 was G-EUYA so definatly BA aircraft.

BA recently bought upgrade kits for there 734's engines and does not expect to replace them to 2015 at the earliest
BA postpones retirement of 737-400 fleet (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/05/27/326998/ba-postpones-retirement-of-737-400-fleet.html)

[cornishsimon]

yes the 734's will be around for some time to come yet at LGW
even though they burn more fuel they are still owned outright by BA so cheaper than buying new or paying leases

longterm i would expect to see A320 family or EMB195's replace the 734's at LGW so that there is a common fleet with either LHR or Cityflyer, after all Cityflyer have have now got most of them so should be in a fairly good position to evaluate the EMB's.

CS

[firstchoice7e7]

nice to see the classics staying around, though i hope they do a cabin upgrade. Lufthansa are also keeping their 733/735 fleet and upgrading their engines, so BA arent the only ones.

[BAladdy]

longterm i would expect to see A320 family or EMB195's replace the 734's at LGW so that there is a common fleet with either LHR or Cityflyer, after all Cityflyer have have now got most of them so should be in a fairly good position to evaluate the EMB's.

I think the replacement will be Airbus. As Airbus crew are dual based at the moment (LHR/LGW). LCY/JFK airbus crew come from LGW.

I think the 734's will be replaced by the A319. BA may also add a small fleet of A318's for routes like LUX, MAN, GLA and EDI.

[cornishsimon]

I think the 734's will be replaced by the A319. BA may also add a small fleet of A318's for routes like LUX, MAN, GLA and EDI.


I always thought that the domestic routes carried really good loads so why would they want to downgrade the equipment to a A318 ?

[Charlie Roy]

New Easyjet route starting September:
Gatwick to Gothenburg Landvetter (GOT)
Starting mid-September. Flights are daily, departing Gatwick at 11:45 and arriving in Gatwick at 16:25

Gothenburg is a brand new destination for Easyjet.

[sam1993]

With Hellenic Imperial of Greece starting passenger flights to Europe once they have suitable aircraft, could one of these European destinations be Gatwick? The reason I ask is because their flight numbers are on the Arrivals / Departures boards today.

[Skipness One Echo]

I think the 734's will be replaced by the A319. BA may also add a small fleet of A318's for routes like LUX, MAN, GLA and EDI.

The A318 is too heavy really, which is why it hasn't sold well. It's a cut down bigger aeroplane. The obvious answer is to let BA CityFlyer loose at LGW with more shiny new ERJs. I wonder if BA LGW short haul has made a penny since the Dan Air merger in 1992. I don't believe it ever has.

[cornishsimon]

The A318 is too heavy really, which is why it hasn't sold well. It's a cut down bigger aeroplane. The obvious answer is to let BA CityFlyer loose at LGW with more shiny new ERJs. I wonder if BA LGW short haul has made a penny since the Dan Air merger in 1992. I don't believe it ever has.


From what i understand LGW is a profitable operation overall due to the lower cost base compared to LHR.

Cityflyer loose at LGW is something that i often thought would be a good idea, BA still hold 3 ERJ options, and this would be especially easy for BA to add rotations to the shorthaul network ex LGW, domestics, AMS, JER etc all of which currently have very good loads.

CS

[toledoashley]

Flyertalk seems to have a rumour that BA are to move 3 744's to Gatwick, with Cancun a certainty new route.

[TartinTon]

Looks like Monarch have added a three-times weekly LGWPMI service starting 17Jul :ok:

[cheesycol]

Scope won't let BA Cityflyer operate more than 99 seats per airframe ex-LGW.

[marlowe]

Well scope wont matter cos the Cityflyer EMB 190s are 98 seats already. where row 1CD should be is a huge area left empty to ensure they are under the scope agreement .

[Spitfire boy]

A year since I have flown out of LGW as a SLF, always now flying from LHR or LCY on busiiness but tempted during BA unrest to take Air Europa to MAD at a sensible price. What amazed me was how quiet LGW was late pm. If it wasn't for easyjet, flybe and the odd BA 734 you might not believe it was an operational airport. A very pleasant surprise to walk straight through South Terminal security with no delay at all!

[Skipness One Echo]

Scope won't let BA Cityflyer operate more than 99 seats per airframe ex-LGW.

I wonder if SCOPE won't actaully allow BA CitiFlyer to operate from LGW? I mean as is now, not as was when they flew the RJ100 as CityFlyer Express from the South Terminal back in the day. I certainly think that the UK domestic routes are much more suited to the ERJs rather than the B734.

[marlowe]

Ok so lets speculate a little here, the Bacityflyer Embraers seem to be a big hit with the passengers and is proving to have a good despatch record compared to the RJs (ok admit thats not hard) with BA the way it is at the moment why not us a subsidary company with a lower cost base than LGW, to operate some routes that might be marginal on an Airbus or 737 but then become profitable on an Embraer 170/190?

[BAladdy]

I always thought that the domestic routes carried really good loads so why would they want to downgrade the equipment to a A318 ?The domestic flights have not bad loads, but BA up to about 2 years ago operated 6 x daily to EDI ( 4 x daily now) and 6 x daily( 4 x daily now) to GLA. Back then these flights mostly operated using a mix of 110 seater 735's & 126 seater 733's with the odd 734. By adding A318's BA may be able to increase frequencies back to the levels 2 years ago.
with BA the way it is at the moment why not us a subsidary company with a lower cost base than LGWThe cost base at LGW is already very low. The new fleet that BA are bringing in at LHR will be on the same pay as those at LGW. Crew at LHR are payed slightly more than those at BACF.
Flyertalk seems to have a rumour that BA are to move 3 744's to Gatwick, with Cancun a certainty new route.BA cabin crew can only hold a max of 3 licenses. At LGW they are A320 family/737 and 777. If BA added the 744 at LGW it would significantly increase the LGW Single Fleets cost base. More likely to happen is that the 744's would remain at LHR with LGW gaining more 777-200's or even the new 773ER's.

I have a few mates who work at Waterside and have asked them about longhaul ex LGW. BA have been looking to add new longhaul routes ex LGW after the successful launch of MLE and SSH.

The same 3 routes keep being mentioned for new routes ex LGW they are CMB, CUN and GOI. Other routes that are being looked at ex LGW include BJL, FLL, HAV, HKT and SJU.

[BAladdy]

From 02 November OA will re-introduce there service to SKG which they suspended back in 2008.

Flights will operate 4 x weekly ex LGW

OA283 -2345-- 319 SKG 0715 LGW 0855
OA284 -2345-- 319 LGW 0945 SKG 1515

They will in operate a daily service from London to SKG with flights on a Monday, Saturday and Sunday operating ex LHR.

OA281 1----67 319 SKG 0930 LHR 1115
OA282 1----67 319 LHR 1215 SKG 1750

Flights are now available to book on OA's Website

[True Blue]

I see BA are starting 2 weekly to Cancun early November 10. Operated by 777. Available for booking.

True Blue

[Wycombe]

Really thought that VS would have been first to this route years ago with their high density LGW 744's. Good luck to BA with it.

[dead_pan]

Could anyone give me a list of charter companies operating out of LGW? Looking for someone with a 100+ seat a/c (not VIP) for an adhoc charter this winter.

PM me if you'd prefer not to clutter this thread.

PS I know about Astraeus.

[TCASIII]

Try flybe 118 seats E195

[Todders]

Viking Airlines: B737-300- 148 seats
B737-800- 189 seats

[monarch767]

Monarch through first aviation A320 174 paxs

[Habana2118]

British Airways, A319 approx 135ish seats, will do ad hoc charter flights

[BOAC]

Titan are well respected in this business and have a wide range of capacity.

[BOAC]

Titan are well respected in this business and have a wide range of capacity up to 767.

[Wefeedumall]

Have you not seen their A380?:)

[BOAC]

Saskat - eherm - did you know that in their 20 years of operation they have managed to get a website and ETOPS 180?

[jpthomas72]

Taxing at LGW yesterday, I spotted an Aurela B757 by a gate at the North Terminal (I think). Was just wondering if someone here knows who wet-leases them ? Very nice to see as Lithuania is still suffering pretty badly in the downturn (which cost it its national airline, but that's a long story).

[sam1993]

Thomas Cook have leased 2 757's and a 737 from Aurela for the summer! :ok:

[jpthomas72]

Cheers for the info, sam1993 !
Very good business for Aurela this summer then, I read one of their 737 is on wet-lease to Star1 (you won't know these guys at LGW, as they go to STN :} )

[Seljuk22]

EZY will open LGW-LXR 2 weekly from 3rd November.
From November FR will open new routes to Rome-CIA (daily) and Seville (3 weekly). Services to MAD will be increased.

[Charley B]

Sadly LGW will lose Mexicana at the end of August(they are pulling out of all European routes) also Transavia at end October.
A few carriers and routes needed from LHR!

[Seljuk22]

Olympic Air: 31st Oct Thessaloniki 5 weekly A319

Ryanair:
31st Oct Madrid increase from daily to double daily
31st Oct Rome-Ciampino daily
31 Oct Milan-Bergamo daily
31st Oct Porto 5 weekly
31st Oct Faro 4 weekly
01st Nov Bologna 4 weekly
2nd Nov Oslo-Rygge daily
2nd Nov Seville 3 weekly

[Jamie2k9]

Oslo Rygge has increased to 10 weekly

[jdcg]

Air Berlin has apparently applied for slots at LGW for flights from TXL, HAJ & NUE. Anyone know more on this? Is this the start of yet another exodus from STN and does it herald increased cooperation with BA at LGW including codeshares perhaps?

[Seljuk22]

Page 43

Air Berlin may want to shift flights from London Stansted to London Gatwick for better market access to the London area and additional feeder opportunities on BA flights

http://ir.airberlin.com/fileadmin/PDF/Praesentationen/praesentationen_2010/2010-08-26_Investors_conference-final.pdf

[True Blue]

At the start of the summer season, Pegasus launched 3 weekly to Dlm and 1 weekly to Ayt. Now it seems Dlm is 1x and Ayt is 1x via Bhx. Did they cut back their intended services to Lgw? A few weeks back, Saw was in the drop-down menu from Lgw, is this to come as well? Will they expand at Lgw next year?

True Blue

[ericlday]

Seljuk22 Thanks for the link, interesting information.

[tommyc2005]

jdcg - I fear you are right, this would be a blow to STN. At the moment TXL isn't served at all (got dropped a couple of years back) and HAJ is now in competition with Germanwings, but NUE is not served from the London area by anyone else. Only a matter of time before the remaining routes follow as happened with Norwegian.

[Bagmanlgw]

What other services would be left at STN if Air Berlin move HAJ , TXL and add a NUE to the LGW opperation ?

Bagmanlgw

[tommyc2005]

Bagmanlgw - with those routes removed, Dusseldorf (3 x daily), Munster (2 daily) and Paderborn (1 daily) will remain, plus a recently announced 4 x weekly ski route to Salzburg for the winter.

[jdcg]

Munster, Paderborn and most of the Dusseldorf flights are all operated by Q400s so maybe it's just a matter of time before they're shifted as well to LGW. Although DUS would face competition from EZY and BE. If they could get the slots maybe they'd send them all to LCY (not currently possible in the morning rush) as BA have been mulling the LCY-DUS for quite some time.
Even the STN-SZG (A319) could move to LGW and take over the BA ops..
Bit sad to see them leaving STN as it's much more convenient for us and they've always been a pleasure to use...

[tubby linton]

I have just received a notice from my company about work on Pier 1 and Concorde House which will commence from the end of the month.Does anybody have any details?

[Sky Wave]

Pier 1 is to be demolished and rebuilt in a north south alignment. This will get rid of the cul-de-sacs which causes them a headache.

The new remote stands (200 and somethings) were built in order to accommodate the pier 1 aircraft during the re-build.

Not heard of anything happening at Concorde House.

SW

[Skipness One Echo]

Does that mean Pier 1 is closing at the end of the month?

[clareview]

For those less in the know, which one is pier one - is it the short one closest to the runway end?

[tubby linton]

Yes it is the smallest one.Concorde House is the access point for crew to go air side and it delivers crew to a bus stop which involves going under the pier1 .

[Seljuk22]

In 2011 BA will increase flights to:

Barbados 10 to 12 flights a week
Antigua 5 to 6 flights a week
St. Lucia 5 to 7 flights a week
Cancun 2 to 3 flights a week
Tampa 5 to 7 flights a week

Orlando down from 9 to 7 flights a week
Haneda Holiday British Airways Press Office (http://press.ba.com/?p=1446)

[jdcg]

New flights just announced: Norwegian to HEL - starts May 2011.

[ottokar1]

Hi,
Can anyone tell me why there are no flights from LGW to Paris? I know BA used to have them until about 2003 (I think) but now there's nothing - not from any airline.
Is it a political thing? Unprofitable perhaps?
I would've thought there'd be a market for that route.

[IJM]

I would imagine that Eurostar must be a major factor

[racedo]

Can anyone tell me why there are no flights from LGW to Paris? I know BA used to have them until about 2003 (I think) but now there's nothing - not from any airline.
Is it a political thing? Unprofitable perhaps?
I would've thought there'd be a market for that route.

Eurostar offers lower fares, don't have hassle of checking in with queues for security and long slog from arrival gate to Station to get into centre of Paris.

Taking your stated home as an example = leave Brighton at 8.45am and would be in Gare de Nord at 12.47am (1.47 Paris time) via Eurostar.

Getting a flight and leaving same time from Brighton for a 10.45 flight giving enough time via security you would get to CDG around midday but then the walk and catching a train would add signnificantly to that.

[cornishsimon]

i think BA could make a go of a 2 of 3 daily service LGW-CDG-LGW. They have recently put the short haul 767 back on the LHR-CDG service at least 1 or 2 sectors a day!

a 2 or 3 a day service on a 319/734 could also help feed the longhaul services ex LGW

cs

[Feet on ground]

Then there's the anti competitive issue of £11 APD (going to £12 in November) on each economy class ticket, more for Club passengers...which the train customers don't have to pay.

[thebeehive]

LGW-CDG would be absolute suicide

[ottokar1]

I did think of Eurostar and that logic does make sense yet there are Paris flights from Luton on Easyjet. For me in Brighton (and others who live in the south), I still have to travel to Euston which is about 1.5hrs on average. I still would think there is *some* scope for LGW-CDG/ORY flights. :confused:

[RooCat]

Flybe maybe with a spare Dash 8 into CDG??almost guaranteed some kind of demand but even if air france used a regional or brit air aircraft (crj 700/900 or atr 42/72)

[racedo]

I still have to travel to Euston which is about 1.5hrs on average

Being pedantic but its St Pancras and have done that route though not for Eurostar on 1 occasion and was smooth and good especially as walk to St Pancras Int is very quick.

[uklad007]

I must admit I've always thought some sort of route to Paris would be in operation from LGW. I think in today's Market it would have to be a smaller plane - like flybe or an air France subsidiary that would work. BA prob feel they don't need it especially as they are using 767's from Heathrow ( which I think has as much to do with freight movements than passengers) but also from all other London airports there is probably saturation on the London to Paris especially with Eurostar ( which if am not mistaken BA has a v small stake in the operating company ). BA is wise to remain cautious on this especially as I hear Deutsche Bahn wants to operate London to Frankfurt when open access to the tunnel is granted very soon! Like I say it's odd there isn't a route but I can see why BA don't fly it and if Easyjet couldn't make it work with their big presence in Paris that must also say something!

[EI-BUD]

I must admit I've always thought some sort of route to Paris would be in operation from LGW. I think in today's Market it would have to be a smaller plane - like flybe or an air France subsidiary that would work


Uklad007, You are probably right on this one, but I think that rationale maybe that the airlines are thinking there are more lucrative markets to install the aircraft where better yields are possible? Not necessarily that it wouldnt work but might not meet the airlines criteria in terms of payback???

EI-BUD

[Seljuk22]

BA will launch San Juan (Puerto Rico) from 28th March. Flights op. via Antigua twice weekly (Monday and Friday) with B772.

[BAladdy]

A new airline will commence services between LGW and YYC, YYZ and YVR starting June 2011. Further info about the company can be found here:

Canada Extra has cheap flights to Canada, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver, London, Glasgow (http://www.canadaextra.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pubDsp.dspAirline)

Flights will be operated by a 517 seater Air Atlanta Icelandic Boeing 747-300. Configured with 22 First Class and 495 Economy seats.

Flights will operate:

1 x Weekly to YYC

From 02JUL11 to 16JUL11 flights op via GLA,
-- After 16JUL11 flight will op direct--

2 x Weekly to YYZ (Thursday and Sunday)

From 23JUN11 - 14JUL11 flights on a Thursday op Via GLA, Sunday flights will op direct..
--After 14JUL11 flights op 2 x Weekly direct--

2 x Weekly to YVR. (Monday and Friday)

From 27JUN11 to 18JUL11 flights on Monday only op via GLA, Friday flights op direct
-- After 18 JUL flights op 2 x weekly direct --

[763 jock]

How does anyone think they can make money flying these antiques around? Lai Travel highly unlikely to celebrate 31 years in travel if they press on with this idea...

[adfly]

I would imagine the 517 seats help-if they can sell them at reasonable prices and get high loads then they may do quite well. However they do have the Canadian Affair TCX, TS and MON(?) flights to compete with.

[ara01jbb]

This report emerged yesterday: Wrong air passenger bypasses Gatwick security | The Post (http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/wrong-air-passenger-bypasses-gatwick-security-52332.html)

Interestingly, through Facebook, a heard from a friend who had been on the very same flight. He reported that it was only at the repeated head counts did anyone notice there was something amiss. Identifying the passenger's checked luggage involved some walking down the aisle holding bags up for passengers to identify...

OK, so maybe a couple of gate agents checked the name and flight number / destination, but missed the date, while boarding a hundred or so people. But how did the pre-security scanner not pick this one up?

[Skipness One Echo]

No actual harm though. I mean passenger bought a ticket and tried to board on the wrong day. Hence a real valid boarding card, only the date was wrong.

It doesn't shock me that the passenger got through. Why would it? You're not living in the real world if this shocks you. No one is suggesting the aircraft was at risk. Is there any chance we could get a grip of reality here? Any?

[Jamie2k9]

Ryanair have got 5 more slots at LGW. DUB flight will be increased.

Deo DUB - 06:15 - Arr LGW - 07:45
Dep LGW - 08:25 - Arr DUB - 09:45
(Monday - Friday)

[shinobi1]

LGW given the green light to operate the A380!

Gatwick Airport (http://www.gatwickairport.com/business/media-centre/press-releases/gatwick-airport-given-green-light-to-operate-the-airbus-a380/)

Shinobi

[ara01jbb]

It doesn't shock me that the passenger got through. Why would it? You're not living in the real world if this shocks you. No one is suggesting the aircraft was at risk. Is there any chance we could get a grip of reality here? Any?

Forgive me, I didn't think for a second that anyone was at risk. I was just intrigued as to how Gatwick and Ryanair ended up looking so unprofessional :confused:

[racedo]

Forgive me, I didn't think for a second that anyone was at risk. I was just intrigued as to how Gatwick and Ryanair ended up looking so unprofessional

Lets see passenger has valid boarding card for wrong day and security fail to pick it up right through the system so wondering why Ryanair are being blamed.

The 1st time a FR rep see it is when boarding and it states correct name, correct flight number.

They didn't look at the date BUT to be fair as all the Gatwick checks have already taken place then you unlikely to be looking at the date.

[jerboy]

I assume she had an online check in b/pass with a 2D barcode on it? Surely when these are scanned through the various checkpoints a warning would have been displayed? Gone are the days where getting through security just required the screener to check the pass manually.

It may not have been that huge a security risk, but it points out a rather gaping hole in the IT used to check boarding passes, both on the part of LGW security (and whichever airports use the same system), and on the part of FR's boarding system (if indeed they use any?).

[TSR2]

so wondering why Ryanair are being blamed.

I think most people are pointing the finger more at airport security than Ryanair, hence the Gatwick thread.

However, Ryanair must shoulder some of the blame as it delayed their flight and how many times have cabin crew (on other threads) justified the need to check boarding passes at the gate and entrance to the aircraft to prevent just this sort of occurance. Simple but embarassing oversight.

[True Blue]

Ba has cancelled Antalya and Izmir from Gatwick for next summer.

TB

[GLIDERMAN]

British airways appear to have moved Heathrow - Malaga to Gatwick, with increased frequencies, & quite reasonable prices too!

[Seljuk22]

Beside the new flights to AGP 28/7 there will be increased to PSA (from daily to double daily) and FCO (from 13/7 to double daily).
MAN (from 5 daily to 4 daily), IBZ (8/7 to daily), TRN (daily to 6/7) and SKG (5/7 to 4/7) will be reduced.

Antalya, Izmir and Varna will be canceled. EZY could fill this gap.

[Seljuk22]

AB is coming to town later this winter.:ok:

[True Blue]

I see on the UK Slot Co Ord Committee Report for Gatwick W10 that AB has slots for 3 routes.

Also of notice on that report is the growth of FR at Gatwick in terms of slots held and seats for sale.

True Blue

[wanna_be_there]

Who are K5 Aviation. According to ACL, they are holding slots for JNB/CPT with an A332.
Looked at the k5 website and they only seem to do ad-hoc charters, with their biggest aircraft being a DC-9.

[LGW_08R]

@Seljuk22, I don't doubt you at all, you are very reliable. However can you post your source. I know AB put it in one of their annual reports and that they have slots for 3 routes, (HAJ/DUS/TXL wasn't it?) However I was under the impression nothing would happen until the summer schedules come into effect in March?

8r

[Seljuk22]

Heard of HAJ and NUE. Source is a reliable user of an German forum. Announcement should be in a few weeks.
Slots for 3 routes - does it mean 3 routes with each double daily (or more) or 3 routes with just one daily flight?
Right now there aren't any flights TXL-STN. TXL-LGW would be a new route and in competion to EZY LGW-SXF.

[Skipness One Echo]

Are the easyJet domestics moving to the North Terminal? I booked last week for November and an email just turned up telling me I was both arriving and depating now at the North Terminal.

I know that they are redeveloping the old domestic pier but I am curious as to what the set up will be as I doubt BA have room to share the domestic lounge at Gate 55?

Will I be over the bridge with the rest of the easyJet fleet?

[adfly]

Wouldn't it be a good idea for Vueling to move their current LHR routes to Gatwick and possibly even start a BCN route as well. This could fit in well as their business model (low Cost) would suit Gatwick better and this also frees up some LHR slots for BA/IB.

[Dnomyar19]

Skipness,

Some of the EZY domestic flights will be using the North Terminal. They will be using the current domestic area, and I believe they have stands 57 and 58. So, sorry, you will not be going over the bridge to pier 6.

[matt_0445]

Vueling was at LGW a couple of years ago (or Clickair as it was then) but moved to LHR as they said LHR offer better connections for their customers.

As for EZY the only domestic flights to move up the North are BFS and EDI, plus BCN and LIS has also moved to the north with ZRH and SKG moving to the south.

[canberra97]

Is it the intention of moving all Easyjet flights to the North Terminal eventually as it is very confusing to have a split terminal operation!

I would have thought Easyjet would have been better off having all there flights based in the South terminal especially with Pier 1 about to be replaced and Pier 2 modiefied to have more stands.

Moving some other airlines to the North Terminal to compensate stand space in the South Terminal.

[Xpert]

as far as I am aware, this a venture backed by Wyatt and Co (BPI). Good luck to them!!!

[Out Of Trim]

Maybe it's time for BA to move their few remaining flights to LHR!

BA ground crews not happy about easyJet moving more and more flights into their old stands! Apparently :=

Perhaps North Terminal should be just for easyJet now..

The extra stands in Pier two have been made available due to the planned demolition of Pier One; To accommodate the flights that were operating from pier one. As Pier 2 Domestic stands are limited it was necessary to move some Domestic EZY flights to the North Terminal.

[Dnomyar19]

I would imagine the reason they are not happy is that, because of the layout of pier 5, it is occasionally impossible for arriving passengers to make their way to the customs hall when flights are boarding on adjacent gates. This "cross-flow" problem has always been there, but is much easier to manage when only one handling agent is involved.

[Skipness One Echo]

Maybe it's time for BA to move their few remaining flights to LHR!

Given that T5 is full and BA are forced to run a split operation between T3 and T5 that's a good idea. Not quite sure where they'd park another twenty narrow bodies and another seven triples on a day.

The North Terminal was the last to be designed before HMG insisted on complete seperation of arriving and departing passengers which is why the flows keep getting in each others way.

[cornishsimon]

I think its more likely to see some more Longhaul flights with BA at LGW in the near future rather than flights moving from Gatwick to Heathrow and BA not being present at LGW !

[thebeehive]

"Maybe it's time for BA to move their few remaining flights to LHR!"

"Perhaps North Terminal should be just for easyJet now."

Errrmm......... :ugh:

[Charley B]

Anyone know why flights were diverted from about 21.30 to 22.30 last night? It wasnt fog and the ATIS said nothing out of the ordinary!

[LGWWelsh]

Thomson diverted in SSH to BRS, tyre burst on departure from SSH

[Charley B]

Thank You!!

[Skipness One Echo]

Was astounded to find that the newish pier at the North Terminal over the bridge has multiple leaks in the roof. Start of the day on Saturday involved dodging a pile of buckets!
Noticeable all the gate numbers are Orange in a pier originally built for BA. Just saying lol!

[Dropline]

Why should the new pier be any different to the rest of the airport?!!!

[Dnomyar19]

Noticeable all the gate numbers are Orange in a pier originally built for BA. Just saying lol!

Where did you get that idea from? Pier 6 was never "built for BA". In common with all stands at LGW it is multi-user. There is a twice yearly apportionment agreement between GAL and BA which gives BA some preference on a certain number of stands. This has never resulted in BA having sole access to pier 6.

[Skipness One Echo]

Sorry, my phraseology was poor. Pier 6 was approved before BA scaled back the "hub without the hubbub" copncept at Gatwick I believe as at the time, BA was driving growth at the North Terminal. Indeed when it opened and before the sale of GB Airways, it was overwhelmingly BA that was using it.
Changed days.

[Dnomyar19]

Indeed when it opened and before the sale of GB Airways, it was a overwhelmingly BA that was using it.

Yes, very true. The was some debate at the time regarding taking all Pier 6 stands in exchange for some on Pier 5. The first season following the opening of Pier 6 BA had all except stands 101 and 102. As you say, changed days. I'm not 100% sure, but now I think they have about 3 or 4 stands there.

[newscaster]

Did Kam Air of Afghanistan ever get to launch London flights?

[LGWWelsh]

BA now have stands 104 and 111.

[Skipness One Echo]

Minor detail but why is there no stands 103 or 108?
Am I right in thinking that stands 63 to 56 are on pier 5? It's not marked on the AIS charts as such and I know that main building was built before the later pier 4 (stands 54-46)

[Dnomyar19]

Minor detail but why is there no stands 103 or 108?

If my memory serves me correctly, stand 103 would have been a small stand east of what is now 104. During the planning stage this area was converted into a space for equipment parking. I'm not sure about 108 though. Someone did mention once that it was not used so as to avoid confusion with runway 08, but I'm not 100% convinced that that is the reason.

Am I right in thinking that stands 63 to 56 are on pier 5?

Yes those stands are on pier 5. In addition the stands that were built around the original stand 55, are also included as being on peir 5. These are now called stands 551 to 554, but as a passenger you would see them as gates 55B to 55E.

[jpthomas72]

As BA is moving its Luxembourg (LUX) flight from LGW to LHR in March 2011, any idea which place the 737 will go instead ? Or are they slimming-down their 737 effort at LGW further ? The move has good and bad sides, it wasn't full enough mainly as they didn't have long-haul connections at LGW, also much LCY competition at LUX. But then you can land at LGW without scenic aerial views of the QE bridge twice or three-times... And it's great for Brighton and the south coast. They used to have GVA, PRG, VNO etc from LGW, all gone. What's the sense in breaking-up the BAA monopoly when everything turns orange.

[globetrotter79]

With LGW-LUX gone, I assume plan will be that the 737 will be used to replace current A319 ops at LGW and release all/any (?) remaining A319s to go back to LHR and then, via a bit of a slots re-juggle, BA will be able use some of the slots release to help "fund" Air Berlin's move into LGW.

I'd be surprised if any other new LGW routes for Summer 2011 were announced at this point...but wait to be proven wrong!

[Skipness One Echo]

I don't think they have any A319 operations left at LGW except as cover for tech B737s. It may be that they just need a spare B737 to keep the operation on schedule now all the B733s and B735s are gone.

Last couple of times I have been through the North Terrible there's only been a handful of BA, all Boeing.

[Aero Mad]

Thought BA were still using 319s on some JER schedules?

[cornishsimon]

As far as i am aware for the summer schedule there was some A319 ops, with the backup capacity being from one or two A320's which are parked up at LGW awaiting return. G-BUSI for instance was kept in a ready state to be used as a short notice sub

cs

[autobrake3]

Why has LGW been snow closed since midnight last night and not expected to open until 06.00Z tomorrow ? After last years debacle I thought they may have made some effort to provide the services for which the airlines pay a fortune. Is it the wrong kind of snow or just a lack of management and investment ? That being the case perhaps the owners should be made to compensate the passengers since this Euro Passenger Charter is proving to be utter madness in terms of making the airlines accountable for everybody elses ineptitude.

[Joao da Silva]

Autobrake

If you buy a product from Tesco and it is faulty, who is liable to compensate the consumer?

It is Tesco, not the manufacturer.

So if the airline cannot fly THEIR pax, they have to provide the stipulated care.

Of course, the airline may seek redress against the airport and that is quite right. The EU assumes that businesses (airlines) can look after themselves, but it protects the consumer.

It is an arguable point as to whether snow in winter is considered óutside the control' of the airline, I tend to think that it is not, the airlines need to satisfy themselves that their airports have the right equipment to deal with snow and ice or run the risk of paying the penalty in the form of 261/2004 compo.

If LHR is open and not LGW, why? Was there an apocalyptic storm in Sussex or just a lack of equipment/consumables?

[Flightman]

I was at a meeting at LGW back in March where a senior LGW manager stated that "Coming from the US, the Feb snow closures at LGW would never have happened there. He was going to write a cheque to get some modern state of the art snow clearing equipment to ensure it wouldn't happen again. And it wouldn't have happened in the US. And he came from the US etc etc" :hmm:

So, as the first snow hits LGW the question is:

Did he write that cheque? :confused:

[HundredPercentPlease]

Joao,

It was primarily the former, with a dash of the latter thrown in.

YouTube - Snow closes Gatwick Airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml3w21J_UZ0)

[TUGNBAR]

YouTube - Snow closes Gatwick Airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml3w21J_UZ0)



Has anyone got a copy of Gatwick Airport Snow plan......looking at the footage its clear they dont have one....not a good advert is it...oh deah:=

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Reason Heathrow open and Gatwick closed is obvious when you consider the weather. There was heavy snow over southeast England but virtually none around Heathrow. Simple - not rocket science!

[Joao da Silva]

With all due respect, that is not an apocalyptic snowfall.

[Edited] I see now that you acknowledge other reasons than apocalypse.

[Joao da Silva]

Reason Heathrow open and Gatwick closed is obvious when you consider the weather. There was heavy snow over southeast England but virtually none around Heathrow. Simple - not rocket science!

Ha ha.

This is not heavy snow, please get a grip.

]All over the world airports close because it is difficult to clear.

This is true, but it is the speed of recovery that is telling. The UK is very good at making excuses, this snow should have been cleared quickly, but no, the airport is closed for a long time.

If you watch the snow ploughs in the video, they are clearing it easily and the roads have self cleared.

Just more excuses from a country that cannot manage normal winter conditions and prefers to wimp out.

[bylgw]

It's a very sad state.

Taxiing out on Sunday, it looked like all of gatwick's snow clearing equipment was out on show.

The equipment was 8 sweepers and some tractors with large scoops on the front and some other bits.

How are 8 sweepers enough to clear a runway and the major taxiways? Gatwick and maybe the UK's problem is that they insist on clearing back to black. Operating up to scandi and finland they are capable of providing braking actions on the runway and apron allowing us, the company and pilots, to make a judgement.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Joao,

No. This is what happens when inept managers will not invest in the needed equipment when the opportunity to invest in an extra shop exists.

[Capetonian]

Along with thousands of others, I was caught up in the LGW closure today. I had a late afternoon flight out and was staying in a hotel nearby.

It snowed fairly constantly during the night and at about 0730 when I went out there were about 5cm. of snow on the roads, and a short car journey was difficult but possible. I was surprised at 0900 to hear that the airport had closed due to such a comparatively small snowfall. Easyjet texted me within 10 minutes advising of the cancellation. Can't fault that.

Later in the day I was in the Heathrow area (after a long and freezing journey from Gatwick to Weybridge) where there was far less snow than in Surrey.

[lomapaseo]

So, as the first snow hits LGW the question is:

Did he write that cheque? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

it likely bounced returned to sender for insufficient funds

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<This is not heavy snow, please get a grip.>>

I don't need to get a grip, as you put it, it's now snowing here. I refer you to TV pictures of Gatwick and surrounding areas......

[Pub User]

Ha ha.

This is not heavy snow, please get a grip.

Sadly, and unusually for the south of England, 'heavy snow' as defined by ICAO, FAA, TC, SAE and UK Met Office, has occurred periodically throughout the day.

[pwalhx]

Just more excuses from a country that cannot manage normal winter conditions and prefers to wimp out.

If every airport in the country was shut you may just have a point, they are clearly not and in a lot of cases have coped well with the snow.

Please do not generalise or tar us all with the same brush, clearly something has gone badly wrong at Gatwick, it has not elsewhere.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I wonder what all these clever dicks would suggest in the event of fog - which I've seen many, many more times than snow at Heathrow? Perhaps employ a 1000 people full time to blow the fog away? It would not be commercially viable, I venture to suggest, to have adequate resources available on a full-time basis to combat the rare occasions when snow becomes a major problem. One airfield manager, speaking on BBC News, said they had a large number of people attempting to clear the runway but as they cleared a path, the snow fell behind them filling in what they had just cleared? Any sensible ideas for combatting that little problem?

[jetset lady]

Thank you for some common sense Pub User!

If you watch the snow ploughs in the video, they are clearing it easily and the roads have self cleared.

And you know this because...? Having just driven from LGW, I can assure you the roads have most definitely not self cleared. Put it this way. It 'aint much fun out there! (And I have lived and driven in countries that do get heavy snow so do have some idea of what I'm talking about)


No. This is what happens when inept managers will not invest in the needed equipment when the opportunity to invest in an extra shop exists.

What? Extremely expensive equipment that up until the last couple of years was not really needed and would have sat around doing nothing? As already said by others, this sort of snow is unusual in the South East.

However, saying all that, if this looks set to become the norm for winter, then I do agree that the authorities seriously need to look at getting themselves some of that expensive equipment!

[tubby linton]

Chemically treat it?

[Moonraker One]

Here we are all over europe there are snclo

United Kingdom

Edinburgh - closed due to snow until 06:00 hours on 2 December

Gatwick - closed due to snow until 10:00 hours on 2 December

Doncaster Sheffield - Currently closed due to snow until 10:00 hours on 2 December

Liverpool - re-opened delays expected

Aberdeen - reopened delays expected Inverness - reopened delays expected

Continental Europe
Basel - closed due to snow until 05:00 hours on 2 December

Geneva - closed due to snow until 05:00 hours on 2 December

Lyon - reopened, delays expected

Milan Malpensa - delays due to heavy snow

Paris CDG - cancellations and delays expected on 02 Dec due to severe weather

Paris Orly - cancellations and delays expected on 02 Dec due to severe weather

All times in GMT

Even the Swiss have problems with snow.

:p

[Charley B]

The snow definately was bad here overnight-other half couldnt get out of here this morning and the neighbour didnt get home from London till 10.00 this morning!( he left work at 20.00 last night!)
we have had 8 ins of snow here and the roads in this village 2 miles from LGW are impassable!
Gatwick did try as HD said and we had far more snow here than LHR did!

[nicolai]

At STN the ground staff advised the SCCM of the 18:15 EasyJet arrival from AMS that only one set of steps was available due to the number of diverts from LGW. I hope the later arrivals didn't have to wait around for even a single set of steps.

[Joao da Silva]

And you know this because...? I have just driven from Crawley to Redhill in a Astra rental that I have had for a day and it was passable with a small amount of care and only a little technique.

Then again, I am from Portugal, so I probably have a lot more experience of snow that your average British person :ugh:

Geneva - closed due to snow until 05:00 hours on 2 December

Lyon - reopened, delays expected

Milan Malpensa - delays due to heavy snow

Paris CDG - cancellations and delays expected on 02 Dec due to severe weather

Paris Orly - cancellations and delays expected on 02 Dec due to severe weather Okay, so what do we have here?

One airport closed - between the Jura and Alpes ;-), not quite Sussex

One airport open (LYS.)

One airport with delays (not closed.)

And two that are operating normally, but might be shut tomorrow, depending on what happens.

And this somehow makes LGW ok, with a small amount of snow.

I see it is the usual situation, snowfall, Europe isolated from UK. :ok:

Please do not generalise or tar us all with the same brush, clearly something has gone badly wrong at Gatwick, it has not elsewhere.

Pwahlx, I agree with you. But how do you get some of these posters out of denial?

I'm from the land of 30 degrees and sun, I've just driven 20 kms throught this 'disaster area' without problems :ugh:

[pwalhx]

Suggest you drive to gatwick then and offer them your expertise, they evidently would benefit greatly from it

[Joao da Silva]

My expertise is not in managing airports.

On the other hand, is theirs?.......

[heebeegb]

Joao - you're amazing.

[Joao da Silva]

Joao - you're amazing.

Just a normal European, well perhaps that is amazing for a Brit.

[jetset lady]

I have just driven from Crawley to Redhill in a Astra rental that I have had for a day and it was passable with a small amount of care and only a little technique.

Well, well done you! But not exactly "self cleared" roads then. I don't think I ever said that the roads weren't passable. (Just as an aside, be glad you didn't have to head to the M25 and turn right. Now that really was fun, mixing it with the big guys! :uhoh:)

However, you and I making our way cautiously to our destinations, in our Astra and 306 respectively, don't quite compare with X tons of aircraft, carrying X amount of passengers touching down at Xmph onto a possibly contaminated runway, does it?

My expertise is not in managing airports.

Oh. I assumed from your posts that that's exactly where your field of expertise lay. :rolleyes:

Believe me, I'm usually the last to defend the new owners of LGW. However, I get a little sick of the bashing the entire UK gets if there is even the slightest bit of disruption due to adverse weather. Yes. Others do cope better than us but that's because usually, others have more practice!

[Joao da Silva]

However, you and I making our way cautiously to our destinations, in our Astra and 306 respectively, don't quite compare with X tons of aircraft, carrying X amount of passengers touching down at Xmph onto a possibly contaminated runway, does it? No, we do not have the same support that an international airport should offer to such aircraft.

At least you have the sense to drive a very good car that handles such conditions well and is very safe in snow and ice.

You should try it in the Sierra Nevada, it will still drive very well, even in the mountains :ok:

[QUOTE][Well, well done you! But not exactly "self cleared" roads then./QUOTE]

Yes, roads were cleared for snow (tracks for tyres), technique being needed for ice in parts.

[jetset lady]

Don't start me waxing lyrical about my battered little 306, Joao da Silva, you'll never stop me! I live on a farm down the end of a 2 mile long lane and get great pleasure trundling past the big posh 4x4's stranded on various hills! Mind you, I tend to think that says more about their driving skills than their vehicle's capabilities.....;)

Safe trip to Paris and will be genuinely interested to hear how it is there.

[pwalhx]

Joao

I am a European too and do not find that in itself amazing, however what is interesting is you feel free to snipe at Brits yet offer nothing to suggest you could any better.

[AirLCY]

I agree that LGW has put on a poor show, they should have been able to clear it better, although the snow was heavy at times LGW need to learn to deal with it better. I wonder how long it will take Easyjet to complain!

[west lakes]

Just thinking it through a bit (just to get other views) If LGW set up a procedure that they would sweep between each movement on the runway (they would need some special equipment) it would obviously reduce the hourly and overall movements.
So which flights would be allowed to operate and which cancelled.
Which airline(s) would be at a disadvantage and which would win
In one way a total closure ensures that all airlines get treated the same and that there are not thousands of passengers stuck on site!

[Sky Wave]

It was pretty heavy snow.

Numerous aircraft were running out of holdover time before making it to the runway and having to return to stand.

Ok, better airports do have de-icing areas at the holdover point, but how often do we require that facility?

SW

[racedo]

As someone who was on the road last night from that area I can attest to how bad it was and eventually getting up Reigate hill (A217) after 3 hours of a wait and seeing numerous cars and trucks abandoned on the top with many people walking down the hill.

On way to a meeting for Wednesday, North of Heathrow and going night before to make sure I was there, I can confirm that a little past the Leatherhead junction (and the jacknifed lorry 90 mins from Reigate to Leatherhead) there was no snow and it was 3 degrees warmer +1 V -2 in Redhill. The M25 heading clockwise was 15 miles of stationery traffic up to Reigate and probably more after that with waits of 8-9 hours.

Still little if any snow up where I am as staying here another night.

Pictures on TV showing GEX were right outside Gatwick station where points completely frozen up.

IMHO cancelling all flights was most sensible option as it stops people trying to get there, staff do not have to spend hours travelling in putting themselves and others in danger.

Gatwick management may have a financial duty to the airlines BUT they have a moral duty of care and safety to the people who work there and who travel from there and that has to come first.

[Airlift21]

I really wish that some people would stop comparing Gatwick with Heathrow. On this occassion Gatwick had much more snow than Heathrow. I admit that LGW handled the situation poorly, so on the subject of snow clearance, there doesn't seem to be much improvement since GIP took over from BAA. However, the fact that LGW only has one runway and LHR has two, clearly explains why the former will close more often than the latter during adverse weather conditions. Until Gatwick has a second runway, it is always going to suffer. If you look around the world, airports as busy as Gatwick rarely have only one runway. The problem with Gatwick only having one runway should have been addressed years ago. Snow is the least of Gatwick Airports problems. Anyway, that's a completely different topic!

[Defruiter]

Sky News now reporting Gatwick closed until 6am on Friday(!)

[Airlift21]

A very poor show indeed, if it's true. I always take any reports from Sky News with a pinch of salt. They can be prone to exaggeration and inaccuracies. Wait for updates from other news sources.

[LTNman]

From the airports own website:

After Heavy snow overnight and with forecasts of further snow, Gatwick will remain closed until at least 6am on Friday 03 December.

There will be no flights arriving or departing today, and passengers can expect further disruption, delays and cancellations as long as the severe weather continues. Passengers should not travel to the airport today, those scheduled to fly tomorrow should check with their airline before travelling to the airport.

We are doing everything we can to resume operations, our teams are working around the clock to make the runway safe for aircraft to use and get our passengers flying again.

[LTNman]

Unbelievable. They closed the airport Tuesday night and now it won’t open until Friday:eek::eek::eek:

[Joao da Silva]

pwalhx

If you do not like me making the point, you can try the Daily Telegraph.

Why did Britain slide into snow chaos again? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8175167/Why-did-Britain-slide-into-snow-chaos-again.html)

I found this quote interesting "Mike Carrivick, the chief executive of the Board of Airline Representatives, said: “UK infrastructure, including some major airports, has failed in its bad weather plans." “Air travellers must not be allowed to suffer like this. The Government, its agencies and airports must provide properly-prepared bad weather plans to prevent anything similar in the future.”
I arrived in Paris, late last night, to find a few snowflakes blowing around in the breeze. Same conditions this morning.

Of course any infrastructure can be overcome by snow, but the underlying resilience of the operation in bouncing back is what counts.

We will see what happens here, today.

[darkroomsource]

What? Extremely expensive equipment that up until the last couple of years was not really needed and would have sat around doing nothing? As already said by others, this sort of snow is unusual in the South East.

However, saying all that, if this looks set to become the norm for winter, then I do agree that the authorities seriously need to look at getting themselves some of that expensive equipment!

Um, what about global warming. Why should we expect MORE SNOW, when all the scientists are saying that we have global warming.

Here's the thing, in places where it snows a lot, regularly, for long stretches of time, they have equipment that can handle it. For places where it rains a lot, they have equipment to handle it. For places where it's foggy alot.... you get the picture.
It would be exorbitantly expensive for some place like the Virgin Islands to maintain snowplows on the off chance that once in the next 100 years or so they will get snow. There is a financial evaluation that has to be made, how often will the snowplows and other equipment be required, and how much will it cost to maintain said equipment, and what will it cost if flights are canceled.

If airlines are not required to remunerate passengers in the event of a snow-storm, then the cost of cancellations will effectively be zero, so it would require significantly more than a "few days" of snow each year to justify having snow equipment.

[cavortingcheetah]

Britain isn't working?

[Airlift21]

There has been too much emphasis on improving the terminal experience for passengers at Gatwick and not enough on airside operations. Having bright, spacious and friendly terminals count for nothing if passengers can't actually fly anywhere. Cracks are appearing in GIPs ability to run a major airport and to keep it running during periods of adverse weather conditions. This can't happen again. Lessons have to be learnt quickly and the cheque book has to come out for more snow clearing equipment. I find it even more disturbing that this snow was forcasted well in advance. No excuses I'm afraid.

[traveller42]

I'm not surprised Gatwick continues to be closed this morning - the trains have given up completely. No trains at all on Southern or Gatwick express south of Croydon until further notice. Even north of Croydon all they're saying is they may start a limited service from 1000.

[AirLCY]

The cost to airlines isn't zero, there are still passenger welfare costs in many cases, plus airlines still have to pay for staff and aircraft lease costs etc while there is no revenue coming in! This will cost both LGW and the airlines millions!

[Airlift21]

Darkroomsource,
Global Warming doesn't mean everywhere gets hotter. Indeed, a lot of places will get colder eg UK. North Pole ice caps melt, more fresh water, no Gulf Stream, Britain gets cold, therefore more expensive snow clearing equipment please.

Airlift21.

[groundbum]

since this happens every year it seems, but at different airports (I was stuck at Manchester in last December's snow) and people say it's down to lack of capacity ...

could not a rich person buy £5M of snow clearing trucks, and have a lot of people on standby, then each winter rent the fleet to the airport with the biggest chequebook? Obviously getting the fleet to the airport before the snow closes the motorways would be interesting.. could an auction between the different airports on ebay, and would need some kind of security clearing/training etc before the day since each airfield is different..

G

[pwalhx]

Joao

I have no problem with you making a point, labouring it is where i have the problem and generalising.

There has been snow in other parts of the U.K. and the infrastructure has worked fine, that is my point. Gatwick has a problem, it does not appear to have handled or coped with it well, however it is not true for the whole of the U.K.

What you say about Paris is equally true say in Manchester .

[Dnomyar19]

Thought BA were still using 319s on some JER schedules?

Not since the start of the Winter 10 schedule at the end of October. Just the 737's now on the shorthaul routes. That's not to say that the odd Airbus may make a guest appearance during the winter to cover for unexpected events.

[Joao da Silva]

pwalhx

I see your point. My labouring is more a reaction to those Brits who appear to wimp out at the first sniff of trouble, they certainly did not build their great empire by making such excuses and history shows us what a formidable nation the UK was in those days.

Anyway, as promised, Paris is experiencing snow showers and reports say about 25% of flights from CDG have been cancelled. Don't know about ORY.

METAR

METAR LFPG 020900Z 19010KT 5000 -SN BKN011 M02/M04 Q1004 0819//58 5859//53 0919//63 5919//62 NOSIG=

METAR LFPG 020830Z 19009KT 4500 -SN SCT008 BKN010 M02/M04 Q1004 0819//58 5859//53 0919//63 5919//62 NOSIG=

METAR LFPG 020800Z 18009KT 3500 -SN SCT008 BKN010 M03/M04 Q1004 0819//58 5859//53 0919//63 5919//62 NOSIG=

METAR LFPG 020730Z 17010KT 2200 -SN BKN008 BKN011 M03/M04 Q1004 0819//61 5819//70 0919//63 5919//62 NOSIG=

[Nicholas49]

Joao,

Your pearls of wisdom about Gatwick operations and snow conditions in the UK are appreciated. Your poor understanding of English law is not.

If you buy a product from Tesco and it is faulty, who is liable to compensate the consumer?

It is Tesco, not the manufacturer.

No, that is not correct. Both Tesco and the manufacturer are potentially liable in English law. See this case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donoghue_v_Stevenson). It's quite important, in the sense that it defined modern tort law.

Best wishes
Nick

[learjet50]

Bit off the subject there

Totalally inpracticle

If you put a 1 in front of your 5 u might the nearer the Mark

If I had 5 million pounds thats the last thing I would invest in

I would sit on my Carriebean Island counting the intrest (Not much at the moment) but certainly not your Idea.



It only happens max 10 times a year so no one is going to invest in Equipment except an Airport

[Skipness One Echo]

Having seen the snow again last night and fought my way into town via the Croydon Tramlink, (don't ask), the snow south of London is still pretty epic for what we're used to. There are no trains on Southern as stated above and it's snowing again alas.

[Capetonian]

Scores of passengers were forced to sleep in broken-down trains overnight after two trains became stuck in the snow, while passengers stranded at Gatwick faced the prospect of bedding down for another night in the terminal.

The airport shut down with hundreds of flights cancelled after two runways became inoperable.

An airport spokesman said: 'We brought in extra people to try to clear the runway. We had a vast army of people, but as fast as they were clearing the snow, the quicker it settled again.'

The facility will remain shut until at least 6am at the 'very, very earliest'.


Read more: Snow: 300 spend night on train, 2,000 flights cancelled, roads gridlocked and there's another EIGHT INCHES of snow on the way | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1334890/Snow-300-spend-night-train-2-000-flights-cancelled-roads-gridlocked-theres-EIGHT-INCHES-snow-way.html#ixzz16xCChSoa)

And there's me thinking LGW only has one runway. The Daily Mail knows something the rest of us don't know!

[Calmcavok]

LGW does have 2 runways, although it can only ever use one at a time.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Capetonian, no - it appears to be something only you don't know!!

[Capetonian]

I thought the North runway was only used as a taxiway. I stand corrected, thanks! Also I remember reading somewhere that it is the world's busiest single runway airport, which is apparently correct but a little misleading.

[Joao da Silva]

Nicholas49

Thank you for your reminder on the tort of negligence.

However, a faulty product does not imply negligence in every case, does it?

If an electronic device fails due to a chip burning out very quickly, say within 24 hours of purchase, (bathtub effect) then who does the consumer contact?

I think the point is clear and the EC chose a similar principle in making the airline responsible for providing care (and possibly compensation) along similar principles, whilst recognizing that the airline was not impeded from seeking redress where appropriate.

For example if a tour operator overbooks, the airline must pay the denied boarding compensation, not the tour operator.

[Skipness One Echo]

Gatwick does have two runways.

26L / 08R and 26R / 08L

The second runway is used only when the main runway is unavailable. The runways are much too close to be used at the same time and there are some stands on Pier One that musn't be used when the secondary runway is in operation.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-1128C864879EA11C6EF31FC87B21A9A1/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGKK_2-1_en_2010-11-18.pdf

[shinobi1]

As someone that was working airside at LGW when it closed, I can categorically state that the snow was very heavy all night. the de-icers couldn't clear the snow on the aircraft as quickly as it was falling!
The 50 mile drive home at 4am was treacherous as well. We had over a foot of snow just last night. The trains aren't running, the buses aren't running. I don't think the airport authorities had any option other than to close.

Shinobi

[Nicholas49]

Joao - we can't discuss this at length because it is off-topic, but this is one of the very rare times on this forum where I am 'qualified' to answer.

However, a faulty product does not imply negligence in every case, does it?

No, I never said it did, but I suspect you are forgetting about product liability, whereby manufacturers are strictly liable (i.e. automatically negligent) for their faulty products. That's another story, though.

You said Tesco, not the manufacturer, is liable. I pointed out that that is not correct in law. However, you rightly point out that the party you seek compensation from is not always the party at fault. Let's leave it at that.

Skipness One Echo - am I correct in thinking that only "one" of the runways is ILS-equipped?

[AvWRup]

There has been too much emphasis on improving the terminal experience for passengers at Gatwick and not enough on airside operations. Having bright, spacious and friendly terminals count for nothing if passengers can't actually fly anywhere. Cracks are appearing in GIPs ability to run a major airport and to keep it running during periods of adverse weather conditions.

Similar to another project east of the city.

[Doug the Head]

Unable to keep 1 (ONE!) lousy runway open during a bit of snow is nothing else but pathetic!

Absolutely pathetic and on par with the third world! How can the public put up with it? :ugh:

How come airports with similar weather (LHR, AMS, BRU, CDG, ORY etc) can stay open?

[Wellington Bomber]

Airlines dont want to pay landing fees and therefore airports have to make income by other means, i.e shops, parking etc

If airlines want to have runways always open in all weathers, then pay reasonable landing fees, then airports can pay for snow ploughs which more or less will sit idle for 340 days a year. BUT they will pay for themselves overall

It always comes down to you pay for what you get

endeth the lesson

[Joao da Silva]

Hi Nicholas

No, I never said it did, but I suspect you are forgetting about product liability, whereby manufacturers are strictly liable (i.e. automatically negligent) for their faulty products. That's another story, though.

I'm the marketing director of a large manufacturing company, so product liability is never far from my thoughts ;-)

But your points are well made and I am happy to accept your informed view.

Of course, if Tesco breaks the product, causing it to be faulty ;) (Only joking.)

[Dropline]

LHR hasn't had anything like the amount of snow LGW has. Last night there was over 8 inches on the ground and it was still falling. It's not simply a matter of clearing the runway either - all the taxyways and stands need to be cleared as well before they can think about reopening. It's a massive operation and as fast as they were clearing last night, more snow was falling. Yes, something needs to be done to enable the airport to cope better with snowfall, but I do think most airports would struggle to cope with this amount of snow.

Even if they could clear the runway, the rail network around the airport has all but shut down, few buses are running, and the roads are treacherous, so how would passengers get there? Staff who live locally are finding it difficult and in some cases impossible to get in to work. I've never seen this much snow in the UK in my life - it's way more than we had back in January. Oh and it looks like freezing fog may be on the way as well!

[Capetonian]

The Gatwick Express has not been operating whilst the airport has been closed. That makes some sense as there are no passengers, but there are still people who have to travel to/from the airport and surrounding area, so perhaps a substantially reduced service would have made sense.

Yesterday the other rail services were severely disrupted, today apparently there there were none and it took a friend of mine almost 5 hours to get to Victoria. All this disruption does seem excessive given the relatively small amount of snowfall, and that other countries with similar climates, e.g. Holland, do not seem to have been disrupted to anything approaching the same extent. The excuse that this is 'exceptional' is wearing a bit thin.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Captonian, I think you'll find it's called patheticness*.

I'm not far from Gatters, I've been out in the car today. Yep it's slippy and a bit dodgy but if you go carefully then there isn't a problem. Oh yes, it took me three hours to do what normally takes twenty minutes so leave earlier, if you can be bothered.







*I made that up

[Skipness One Echo]

How come airports with similar weather (LHR, AMS, BRU, CDG, ORY etc) can stay open?

Please rant less and read more. LHR has not had a fraction of the snow that LGW has. There were no trains all the way from Gatwick through Croydon this morning.
BBC News - Snow leaves travellers facing further severe disruption (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11894853)

I'm not sure I'd want to fly from here today anyway.

ll this disruption does seem excessive given the relatively small amount of snowfall, and that other countries with similar climates, e.g. Holland, do not seem to have been disrupted to anything approaching the same extent. The excuse that this is 'exceptional' is wearing a bit thin.

Having waded through it I am unwiling to defer to your judgement on this. As I skidded for the umpteenth time it was obviously and quite apparently EXCEPTIONAL. Some people just love to moan. If this becomes the norm we will get better at it but in recent years, there has been no call for the huge infrastructure changes that this calls for.

so perhaps a substantially reduced service would have made sense.

As to the Express, it serves more than Gatwick nowadays but is unable to pass trains stuck ahead hence the closures. I know I was stuck static at Victoria for an hour on Monday and that was a good result tbh.

[Mr Flaps]

For those who can remember last winter the same thing happened at LGW when the airport was closed due to snow.
I have noticed that a number of people stated that GVA was shut 1/DEC/10 that was correct but they had 40cm over night and it kept coming. I spoke to LX in GVA and thats what they told me. The Swiss expect snow and even more so in GVA.
LGW had a tiny amount next to that figure.
But can I make one very simple point here. Its winter so we should be ready for this. What LGW has had next to GVA is laughable. And no real reason why LGW is closed. Its other the 'mental elifs' in Health and Safety or lack of kit to do the job.
Saying that ZRH has had snow also and I would not have known until I spoke to one of our cpt's today at LHR. Only cos the flights are running to time.

[Capetonian]

As I skidded for the umpteenth time it was obviously and quite apparently EXCEPTIONAL.

I'm not casting doubts on your driving ability, please don't take it that way, but in other countries where snow is the norm, winter/snow tyres or studs are used, in some countries they are mandatory. Also the roads seem to be better prepared with grit or salt, and the drivers seem to be more used to such conditions and consequently are prepared for it and take it in their stride, rather than what happens here. Also, the railways don't come to a grinding halt.

As to the Express, it serves more than Gatwick nowadays
I'm not quite sure about this. I've seen the Gatwick Express rolling stock on other routes but I think it is leased to other rail operators. No doubt there's an anorak or two here who could enlighten us on this!

[Skipness One Echo]

What LGW has had next to GVA is laughable.

For the record what would this amount be?

but in other countries where snow is the norm
This is the point. In the last 15-20 years snow has NOT been the norm in the UK. Hence it will take years more of this to get back up to speed again. The institutional memory of winter snow has entirely gone from swathes of the UK.

In recent years we were looking at the permanent closure of Aviemore and the entire Scottish skiiing industry. No longer....

[Mr Flaps]

20cm at LGW half the amount in GVA.

[Dropline]

"The Swiss expect snow and even more so in Geneva" - hence they are far better equipped to deal with it!!!
I live near Gatwick and have about 30cm of snow in my garden now, which is far more than I've ever known to fall around here. We don't usually get more than 3 or 4cm, if any at all! It's not just Gatwick that can't cope, it's the whole transport infrastructure.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Anyone know when LGW was closed for such a long time?
When i was a youth (many years ago) i had just passed my driving test and had to go out in the Laker Ops Van (lightweight) and collect a CSD for a BCAL DC10 Sub charter LGW-LAGOS. She lived in Burgess Hill and it was snowing heavily. The flight was waiting on ramp as less than min crew.
Eventually found her, and got her to the aircraft.
Subsequently on leaving Laker after a 15 hr day i "dropped" my motorcycle just coming out of the security gate.
Aaagh memories (and least my driving is better than Joua from Portugal and his fellow Countrymen) :\

[SetStandard]

I have no idea what some of you are talking about?

Capetonian, I’m sat in Crawley, just to the south of LGW. Earlier I ventured outside to measure how much snow had actually fallen. It ranged between 25cm and 30cm. I have the photographic evidence to prove it. What the hell are you talking about “a relatively small amount of snow fall”?

I have friends in Windsor (about 5-6 miles from LHR) and they have seen next to no snowfall at all, I’m sitting here in just under 30cm. No wonder LHR is open and LGW is SNOCLO! I’d be unable to get to LGW to go to work even if it was open because of the road conditions.

Some of you are talking complete rubbish and really should know better.

[Joao da Silva]

and least my driving is better than Joua from Portugal and his fellow Countrymen)I would not count on it in my case, sonny.

In the past, I was a semi professional rally driver :E

These days I just like to drive slow and safe, but skilfully.

This guy was my hero Hernando da Silva Ramos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_da_Silva_Ramos) and this is the supply of my 'handle', unfortunately I was not good enough for race cars, but rally was good for me.

[PleasureFlyer]

Gatwick Express now goes all the way to Brighton to add additional capacity for the commuters.

[Facelookbovvered]

I am 100% sure that the staff are working flat out to get LGW (and EDI/LBA & so on) open, the UK is a funny place snow wise and the like of GVA & PRG know they will get a dump of snow every year and are therefore geared up for it.

Perhaps the UK & not just the airports need a rethink on the issue of snow, most modern cars run on low profile tyres that great on dry and wet roads but way too wide for snow, in PRG & GVA and most snow prone European countries they have a set of winter tyres that go on from the first of November and stay on until the end of April.

We have spent years in this country making anyone who drives a 4 wheel drive car feel like a leper and now tax them accordingly!!

This with weather will have a huge impact on Easyjet and i guess Jet2 will be praying that this isn't a sign of the winter to come up at Leeds, i can remember years ago at Leeds multi day closures due to snow, but there was only a few flights a day back then!!

[controlx]

Anybody know how many snow blowers and ploughs Gatwick has quick access too - and qualified/experienced drivers?

I read last year that Heathrow had access to 75 snow ploughs which sounds like one hell of a lot of machinery to keep servicable on standby year after year and presumably under cover.

Then there's sweepers and anti-icing rigs - the list goes on. Its a staggering amount of expensive kit to have around for once in a blue moon - although three years on the trot now sounds like this is normal, it isn't.

[west lakes]

Interesting comment on a news bulletin, they've shifted in excess of 100,000 tonnes of snow already

[controlx]

Just read a news item that said Gatwick only has eight ploughs - that's ridiculous! If true, then BAA must have nicked a load when they flogged the place and taken them off to Stanstead or Heathrow!

[Buster the Bear]

MON300P (GMAJS) is on short final for 08L.

[ericlday]

No longer snoclo according to latest weather -
2010/12/02 20:50
EGKK 022050Z 03008KT 9999 -SN BKN009 M02/M03 Q1009 582900//

[Out Of Trim]

MON300P (GMAJS) is on short final for 08L.


Hope not, that's the short Runway!

[Charley B]

We are 2 miles from LGW and we have 14 ins of snow in the garden!
We have had no post for 2 days and i am waiting for 2 courier deliveries and it is too bad for them to get here
The roads are awful locally and with no trains and no buses LGW would have had a job getting staff in
HOPEFULLY things will improve tomorrow!

[Charley B]

BAA probably did take the ploughs=saw a lovely de-icing machine at LHR on the news

[Icare9]

Living almost by Heathrow, there hasn't seemed to be the same amount of arrivals or departures and we've just had a smattering of snow, at most 2 inches, and that quickly melted.
I do have an early flight scheduled out of Gatwick Sunday morning, so it's reassuring that it seems as if they now have something flying.
However, faced with an early morning drive, what are the road conditions on M25 and M23, so I can plan at what ungodly hour I need to leave. And I'm told ".....Due to changes in security measures, we strongly recommend all passengers arrive at the airport 2 hours before your departure to ensure you allow sufficient time to get to your boarding gate.":eek:
So can someone sensibly give me the latest motorway road conditions, as it's all very well if the planes are now flying, but still impassable to get to the Terminal!!
TIA

[Charley B]

LGW is using 8R-have just read that NAX are ferrying some empty a/c out this evening-poss what i heard depart a while ago!
hopefully all will be ok for tomorrow-meant to be -10c here tonight!

[Phileas Fogg]

Don't become 'American', LGW doesn't have an 8R, it is 08R as in 080 (ish) degrees!

[Capvermell]

I'm 7 miles due west of Gatwick as the planes fly in (directly overhead here when they land from the west) and we have only had 6 to 7 inches of snow. So as a lot of you seem to agree on 15 inches at Gatwick they must have picked up a lot more snow.

However It does seem very strange the airport has just been closed for days as this snow is like powder snow and is easily shovellable. It hasn't been compacted and hardened in to a huge thick ice blanket.

Even if the new management of Gatwick have taken a disturbingly short term view on snow clearing equipment I would have thought all the airport terminal employees could have been put to work with shovels and cleared it in a day (but I obviously forgot that health and safety no longer allows the staff to do this without a 6 week training course first:mad:).

I would also be suspicious that for Easyjet it is probably much cheaper for the whole airport to simply close completely each day as they then simply tell all their own pilots and cabin crew not to turn up and I would expect don't have to pay them for the day, whereas if they try to get the airport open for a few hours they have to pay all the check in staff and cabin crew to be there even if only a handful of flights get away and may well also avoid contractual liabilities to put anyone up overnight if it has been well announced in advance by the national media that Gatwick is simply totally closed until further notice. Also the equal incompetence of Southern Railway and/or Network Rail in not having adequate equipment to clear the most important line on Southern's network (Victoria to Brighton) doesn't exactly give the airport much incentive to bother opening until that problem is also satisfactorily addressed.

Surely BAA must have nicked a lot of the snow ploughs (or rather the new operators weren't willing to pay the price they were asked) as up to now its only been Luton of the London airports that has had these kind of problems with a prolonged snow caused closure.

[Capvermell]

I see that this morning's partial reopening of Gatwick (limited services etc) coincides with National Rail/Southern finally having got their act together to also begin operating train service to the airport as of around 4am this morning on a half hourly basis.

Call me cynical if you like but it would appear that the Gatwick management seemed to think there was little point in reopening the airport if the rail service connection also did not exist.

Its also interesting to speculate why it is that the only flight Easyjet seems to be managing to operate today is the one to Ivalo. Is this because that particular pilot is used to landing on and taking off from an ice covered runway.:ok:

[ChrisGr31]

Good to see Gatwick is open again. I know for a fact that Gatwick has bought new snow clearing equipment this year, I also know that a neighbour who works on the snow clearing team left for work on Monday and has not returned since.

I'd guess the issue was that it was snowing all day on Wednesday and off and on on Thursday which meant that as the surfaces were cleared they were covered again.

The inability of the railways and highways to maintain a service to the airport would not have helped getting staff and passengers to the airport.

At least closing the airport will have provided certainity to passengers and staff not to bother trying to get there. After all theres little point in providing a service where outgoing passengers cant get to the airport, and incoming passengers can't get away from it.

What we have to remember is that the sort of weather experienced in the south east of England this week is very rare, and for it to happen twice in a year is even more unusual. It wasnt long ago the climate change people were saying we would never see snow in the south east again. It would appear they were wrong!

[pwalhx]

A crumb of comfort maybe for Gatwick seems Geneva has had its problems too.

All of Switzerland’s major airports are now open again, heavy snowfall forced most of them to close Wednesday evening. The airports in Lugano, Basel and Bern reopened this morning—as did Geneva’s Cointrin airport, which had been closed for nearly 36 hours. Zurich’s Kloten airport was able to stay open throughout the worst of the weather, though dozens of flights were cancelled because of problems at other airports.

[londonman]

I'm sorry but I don't buy into managements' excuses that 'it doesn't happen that often'. Factor in passenger volumes. Factor in the revenue that they have available to play with. The sight, on the news yesterday, of those three forlorn old snowploughs attempting to clear the runway was risible.

Take a look here at how a considerably much smaller airport (Oslo) with proportionately less in terms of passenger numbers, flights and revenue can keep their runways clear within an hour and every fifteen minutes thereafter.

Snow Patrol - Airport Technology (http://www.airport-technology.com/features/feature40979/)

Perhaps the owners of Gatwick are too busy diverting money into shopping malls 'to enhance our travel experience'?

[west lakes]

of those three forlorn old snowploughs


I only saw a pictures of a late model Unimog plough towing a brush units.


Gatwick Airport FINALLY reopens after two-day closure due to heavy snow | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1335111/Gatwick-Airport-FINALLY-reopens-day-closure-heavy-snow.html)

Yep there they are!

[Charley B]

We now have thick fog at LGW just to add to it!

[autobrake3]

8 knackered snow ploughs and a few Massey Furgesson tractors for the worlds busiest 'single' runway operation. You couldn't make it up.

[west lakes]

The joys of online discussion!!

I know for a fact that Gatwick has bought new snow clearing equipment this year,

or

The sight, on the news yesterday, of those three forlorn old snowploughs attempting to clear the runway was risible.

or

I only saw a pictures of a late model Unimog plough towing a brush units.
(OK that was my post)

or

8 knackered snow ploughs and a few Massey Furgesson tractors

Not forgetting the JCB loaders seen on TV

Makes interesting reading!!

[londonman]

Snow clearing the Gatwick way

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/02/article-1335111-0C4F190E000005DC-1_634x349.jpg

How they do it at Oslo

http://www.airport-technology.com/features/feature_images/feature40979/1-gardermoen-airport.jpg

I was at Oslo this time last year and was in awe. First a phalanx of five or six snow ploughs line abreast. Then a second phalanx of another five or six snow ploughs. Then a third phalanx of brushers.

So please Mr Transport Minister...exercise a bit of authority.

[racedo]

I was at Oslo this time last year and was in awe. First a phalanx of five or six snow ploughs line abreast. Then a second phalanx of another five or six snow ploughs. Then a third phalanx of brushers.

Oslo gets about 5 metres of snow a year, thats every year.

[londonman]

True..but with a turnover of £465million in 2008, you'd think that Gatwick might have some small change left.

[Andrewgr2]

Reading this thread, watching the videos and looking at the pictures, it would seem that Gatwick has only snow ploughs, and not snow blowers, to clear the runways - and presumably all the other bits of the airport. It looks like the ploughs drive in echelon and are, perhaps, towing brushing units to clean up the snow that the ploughs leave behind. Can anyone explain what happens to the snow when it has been pushed to the edge of the runway? The runway edge lights are on small stalks, but it seems to me that as soon as there is any significant amount of snow, they must end up buried in a snow bank. Do they have to dig them out individually? Presumably at airports where they expect a lot of snow, they use blowers to blow the snow well clear of the runway edge.

[londonman]

I second that and take my hat off to all staff who labour through the snow etc to help keep things moving.

The comparison between Gatwick and Oslo is valid. To say otherwise is to lump Gatwick in the same category as our UK local authorities, Highways Agency etc. For them, it is quite reasonable to argue that it would cost too much and not be cost-effective to have the plant on hand to keep our roads clear. Particularly as there are thousands and thousands of miles of motorway, roads and lanes. Also, their funding comes from public funds.

Gatwick on the other hand has significantly less in terms of real-estate to keep clear of snow. Gatwick's prime objective is to let aircraft land and take-off safely. Not shopping malls and the 'retail experience'. They are privately owned and can take a view - profits for shareholders or invest in the infrastructure and get more/better snow clearing equipment.

I would be very interested to have a comparison between the numbers, types, age, efficiency etc of snow clearing equipment between Oslo and the UK's second largest airport.

The fact that the new chairman Gatwick Airport Ltd (GAL), Sir David Rowlands, was a former Permanent Secretary at the Department for Transport (DfT) has nothing to do with the current Transport Ministers' stance of 'do nothing'.

[WHBM]

The Airfield team at Gatwick did a brilliant job, well done and thanks for not compromising safety.
"Brilliant job, well done" ? What part of Closed For Two Days is not understood here ? "Brilliant job, well done" is when you keep the place open.

I spent time at Helskini this year to understand more about clearance techniques.Yes they have more equipment, more people, dedicated MT facilities and able to cope better, but they have 6 months of solid winter ops, guaranteed every year and a different level of regulation.What a ridiculous thing (assuming you are somehow invoilved professionally with the matter at Gatwick), to go to an airport which is constantly covered by snow in winter, to review how to handle it at one which gets an occasional event. Why not go to one which gets occasional snowfall (like Gatwick) but has a good record of keeping things going. It's perfectly obvious that Helsinki (where every time I have been there in the winter all the kit is in full action) must spend a fortune on snow clearance, and you would inevitably come away with that impression.

Or if you had to go to Finland, why not go to Rovaniemi instead, smaller place, one runway instead of three, to see how they handle things and keep going. They don't have the budget that Helsinki does, but did you ever hear of the Santa charters in December all being diverted away because of snow ?

[bunatern]

it looks like sun country airlines seasonal minneapolis st paul service is moving from stn to lgw starting 27th may.