Not my intention to start a debate about the wisdom or otherwise of travel insurance. Or Brexit.

All I’m saying is that many of the millions who travel in Europe and choose to rely on EHIC will soon not be able to. Some of those will decide not to have their week in Spain or to visit a foreign city anymore.

So even if an effective Coronavirus vaccination comes to our rescue there is a sizeable chunk of passengers who will now limit themselves to UK travel.

I’m guessing that people travelling to the UK from the continent will have a similar problem.

The thing is, it’s a shame for the Remain side that EHIC stuck on the side of a bus doesn’t have the same cut-through as some lies about £350 million a week going to the NHS

The EHIC card was never a substitute for travel insurance. Just ask those families that turned to GoFundMe to get loved ones home by air ambulance.

Interesting is that a stockbrokers in Ireland is suggesting Ryanair is looking at placeing a very large order for Max 10 jets before the end of the year.

Bearing in mind the state of theaviation market and issues Boeing have then would expect price to be low.

2001 revisited for aircraft acquisition.

I bow to someone's better knowledge about this, but I dare say that the EHIC will cover a high % of ailments that will need to be dealt with down-route. It is worth remembering that outside of the EU, the UK has a number of bilateral agreements with governmental healthcare (Australia), but also a lot of countries we don't (Turkey, UAE). Unless there is no choice, the insurer does not cover private healthcare.

I'm no fan of this government, but if this once in a 100 year event costs only £160bn, that is a good result. It is only about a quarter of the UK tax take in a normal year. People talk about reserving money for rainy day funds, but this is a humdinger of a downpour. In terms of paying it back, the UK has low interest rates, but lets be honest - the national debt is nominal.

The US in comparison spent $25bn on the CARES act alone, and there's talk of doubling that alone.

Could I gently nudge the topic towards Covid's impact on air travel, rather than EHIC health cover / Brexit ?
It seems that Denmark and Iceland might go onto the UK's naughty step tomorrow

The UK borrows money at low rates until the money markets think the UK credit rating is to high due to its debts and its ability to pay off those debts. Borrowing then goes up to reflect the higher risk.

Firstly, an apology. I was the first to mention EHIC.

Still interested that - “We’re not locking down” Sweden - are not on that naughty step.

I have always been convinced (not being a smart arse with recent newspaper articles) that we were determined to deal with the pandemic in the same way as Sweden until we saw the situation in Italy and panicked / came to our senses and opted for lockdown.

Sweden are currently on the borderline for the naughty step. Having been taken off the naughty step just 2 weeks ago (when it was 14.9 cases per 100,000 over 7 days - it had gone up to 20.6 cases earlier this week) my guess is that Sweden might get another week's, or even 2 weeks' grace - not only because they're on the borderline but also because it makes the Govt look a bit silly if decisions as to whether a country is safe or not are reversed quickly, as happened with Portugal

UK National Debt is now £2.4 Trillion with GDP of £2.2 Trillion in 2019.......................... lets say it will be £2 trillion in 2020. No money to invest in aviation or anything else for decade.

Various countries are likely to be put on the naughty list today, does it happen for the U.K. too or is our infection rate irrelevant

Indeed...posts are looking at things through the wrong end of the telescope.

Countries throughout the World will be viewing rates in UK with alarm.

What countries have us on their naughty step??

Hong Kong thought to announce today...

Walnut
My H&S Advisor in Germany actually made that point to me before I flew back to the UK on Tuesday. She knows that I live in Yorkshire, and indeed our area is in special measures, though to be honest this really is to do with the other end of the Metropolitan Body in which we live. The issue is with the Eastern end of the area currently, and according to a local Doctor who lives 1/4 mile away, currently there are no Covid cases in our local hospital, and there has not been any for quite some time. Our H&S Advisor suggested as I have quite a bit of work to do over here for the next few weeks, it maybe better to stay in UK, which I am taking under advisement , and will try to organize to comply with her suggestion. It will be a little annoying though if I find out in 2 weeks say, that I can not get back to Germany, because the UK are on the "naughty step".

DC3 Dave
Sorry for mentioning Brexit, I know it is a sore topic either way for many.
Kind regards
Mr Mac

Surely now cases in the U.K. are going up, the quarantine system should be scrapped. After all, the policy was introduced because, and to quote Priti Patel herself

“The answer as to why we’re bringing in these measures now is simple: It is to protect that hard-won progress and prevent a devastating resurgence in a second wave of the virus."

Back to reality, I wonder what the government’s reason for not removing Egypt from the quarantine list is. Their case numbers have been low for months now, and it would give travel companies at least somewhere to fly to in November and December, as well as giving those of us who want to continue a normal life a chance to escape the doom and gloom of the U.K.

Ireland unless you live in Northern Ireland.

Why would we want to import more cases when we have enough of our own to deal with?

If I’m statistically 5x more likely to catch coronavirus in Manchester than in Crete, why can I go to Manchester and not have to quarantine but I do if I go to Crete?

Other than decimating airlines and jobs further, the quarantine scheme does nothing if community transmission in your own country is high. The benefit is a drop in the ocean, the disadvantage is catastrophic.

Denmark, Iceland and (more surprisingly) Slovakia, along with Curacao get the chop this week. No countries added to the 'safe' list
Sweden and Greece survive for another week

Germany found that holidaymakers in holiday mode didn’t do much social distancing while on holiday and brought the virus home. My friend has first hand experience of someone sitting on an aircraft inches apart from strangers spending 2 hours eating a large packet of kettle crisps. As you say they might be sitting next to someone from infected Manchester.

On return to Luton everyone was piled into a single airside bus where he faced another bunch of strangers all hanging onto ceiling straps to stop them falling over. Best not to mention boarding at the gate and passport control.

It is worth noting that the UK's methodology is not as open and closed as some countries - i.e. if you go over a certain threshold, you're automatically on the red list. They also take into account testing levels, "track and trace" (LOL) system and more intangible intelligence.

I have been monitoring one country in Eastern Europe, as I travel there fairly often, who tested less than 7,000 people yesterday - pathetic levels. Yet they are using a hard threshold of 25 per 100,000 cases in the preceding 14 days. One of their neighbours of whom they have a lot of movement and trade went over this threshold last week, but they were granted a "10% tolerance" which at no stage I believe has been granted to anyone else. Their own country calculations also seem to be at odds with the ECDC numbers, almost seemingly far lower than what the European agency was reporting.

The travel corridors scheme is not exactly succeeding right now - there are around 60-70 countries / territories on the list, but only 9 of these allow UK residents into the country without a negative Covid-19 test or 14 days of self isolation. Meaning these people can come into the UK and not self isolate, but for UK residents they are not given the same treatment. I find visa rules and bilateral arrangements pretty ridiculous in normal times, but with the global immigration system based on this reciprocity, I find the current situation quite nonsensical.

I can’t find a single fact in your post that answers the question, just your (typically negative) opinion and a second hand experience. Here’s a fact for you, German tourists are still allowed to go to many of the destinations we aren’t, including Crete. Guess what, I’ve taken six flights since March and have had no problems on any of them.

So I ask again, why should I not be allowed to go to Crete, but I’m allowed to go to Manchester? Or rather, why can’t somebody from Crete freely come to my small corona-free village without having to quarantine, but somebody from Manchester can?

Could you elaborate on that statement? Do you mean that all those six flights were fully COVID-19 compliant in terms of check-in, through security, at the gate, on the bus to the aircraft (if appropriate), in flight and on arrival at destination etc.? Or did you just mean "I didn't catch anything on any of those six flights so that means there's no risk"?

As far as I’m aware, and I’m far from the COVID police, the former.

Domestically... London has now been officially added to the "watch list as an area of concern".

Best to ask the government and not me but to expand the discussion why should someone from Manchester be allowed to travel to Crete and sit for 4 hours next to a stranger while not wearing a mask eating kettle crisps for the duration of the flight?

The diplomatic answer to that is that they’re not. The rules are quite clearly outlined to passengers.

The opinionated answer is why shouldn’t those who are happy to abide by the rules and/or aren’t concerned with this virus be allowed to travel to Crete? Granted if the restriction should lie anywhere, it should be on the Manchester side.

The fact remains that I’m statistically more likely to catch Coronavirus in Manchester than I am in Crete. Yet I’m allowed to freely go in and out of Manchester but I can’t go freely in and out of Crete. That’s nonsensical. And as quoted above, Priti Patel said the timing of the quarantine being introduced was because infection rates were low in this country and high in other places. Now infection rates in this country are high, the quarantine should be scrapped as it holds no benefit. Any cases imported from abroad are a drop in the ocean.

LTNman, if you don’t feel safe sitting on an aircraft because you’re worried somebody sitting next to you will be eating kettle chips, that’s your choice. Don’t get on an aircraft. But, quite frankly, your opinion isn’t important. Many others are happy to get on that aircraft. If you and millions of others used your own judgement to make decisions that in your opinion keep yourself safe, and take responsibility for your own health and well-being, those of us who want to continue to go about our lives will be able to do so. Stay indoors and we can’t infect you. Simple.

I have only taken one flight since March and all passengers seemed to abide by the rules apart from the rush to de-plane on arrival at Gatwick. The flight wasn't full so I wasn't sat next a stranger with no mask on, and altogether the experience was reasonably pleasant. At no point on the whole journey from check-in, security, boarding did I feel concerned with social distancing etc. As the flight was from an area/country on the UK quarantine list like Spain & Portugal the airlines will struggle to get decent passenger loads.
I sure for every nightmare scenario the LTNman can quote there are plenty of flights and airports that are making the experience as comfortable as possible. Unfortunately the media and scaremongers only pick up on the worst cases, so Joe Public never gets to hear about the good experiences.

News today of London being labelled as an "area of concern" with respect to Covid infection. I don't see people on the High Street in my residential suburb of London being particularly more concerned about Covid than beforehand which makes me think stricter measures will end up being introduced. If this becomes a lockdown like Wales, I imagine that London's airports may see pax traffic decliining significantly in November and December

Separately, Switzerland now requires 10 days of quarantine on entry for anybody arriving from the UK, making UK-Switzerland air routes that bit more problematic for airlines

I would venture the key reason why we do not have the 'fine grain' of different travel destinations and combinations is policing it. Trying to identify that a person arriving from a European country at, say LTN might take a train to Birmingham or drive to Manchester? The current situation is beyond accurate monitoring. Whilst I live in Hertfordshire, I have had to use Gatwick severa times due to destination and availability.

I agree that the Press are hounding the govt and, as they are wedded to the Press, they try to please them. Yet, as I have said before, this is a circumstance that no one had prepared for and everyone is making it up as they go along. We will not know who did best for at least another year and it could be three years before all analysis is complete.

Referencing an earlier point in the thread: LHR Third Runway will never be built.

I see Barbados is imposing quarantine restrictions on travellers from the UK while at the same time we impose restrictions on its neighbours.

With the virus once again out of control, particularly in Spain, where mask wearing is compulsory, even when walking in the open, I have to start questioning the effectiveness of masks, as they don’t appear to be making much difference. In the UK the Government stated this many times but was pressured to introduce the mask in certain situations like travel.

It seems the mask is being used as the justification for allowing air travel and while Vokes55 is more than happy to fly, as he sees the risk as minimal and that Crete is a safe island so is a risk he is willing to take, he could still spread the virus from the UK to Crete and to fellow passengers, which he is more than happy to do.

There is no simple answer as we all desire the freedom to travel, some can suppress that urge while others can’t and come up with reasons why they should be allowed to potentially infect others because they want a holiday.

213 Countries and Territories around the world have this virus installed,the idea you can stop the virus spreading when every country has the virus is mind boggling.As for face masks,after 15mins and you can chuck it in the bin,have a nice weekend.

You can't conclude that masks aren't making much difference because you don't know what the infection rate would have been if masks weren't being worn. It's possible that in such a situation, the infection rate would have been much higher and so masks could be having a beneficial effect.

Press and medical profession were happy to heap scorn on Caprice in March when she was suggesting that UK should wear masks as Singapore / Japan etc had done this in other viral outbreaks. Headline of Lingerie Model v Qualified GP was one of the headlines seen.

I don’t think you get it. If you, and by you I mean you and every other risk averse coronaphobe, don’t feel safe then don’t get on an aircraft. Then everybody else who is willing to take that risk or doesn’t care can get on the aircraft and carry on with their life as usual. Everyone who gets on that aircraft accepts that ‘risk’.

Copy and paste the same for every element of life. You can feel all warm and safe in your own home, whilst the majority of people who just want to return to normality and take that risk can carry on as usual. If I, or anybody else who is happy to accept that risk, contracts coronavirus and dies, so be it.

You seem to be surprised by the fact that some people don’t mind risk. Some people climb mountains, some people jump out of aircraft, some people even choose to get on an aircraft during a so-called pandemic. Just because you’re scared witless, doesn’t mean everyone else is. I could sit next to somebody eating kettle chips, in the same way I could share the road with a drunk driver on a Saturday night. It’s not going to stop me driving on a Saturday night.

Oh and by the way, I don’t want a holiday, I want to keep my job. Given your anti-flying rhetoric, you may have failed to notice that this is a “Professional pilots” forum, and whilst I’ve long since accepted that it’s more of a spotters forum these days, you can’t be surprised that people disagree with your view here.

Good post

In a newspaper the other day and elderly journalist said "Sure Covid-19 may eventually kill me, but let me enjoy and lead my life until it does"

Well, fair enough, but you need to be sure that you fully understand the risk you are taking and exposing others to. Not surprisingly the main focus has been on the number of deaths caused by C19, but often overlooked are the long-term impacts that a surprisingly large number of people (up to 15% of those with symptoms) suffer and these do not seem to be age-related: brain damage, breathing, kidneys, heart, blood clotting and more. This is because, as we know, C19 uses a spike protein on its surface to latch onto cells’ ACE2 receptors. We still don't know enough about this virus but it is clear that it is a nasty one, far nastier than flu (for which there is a vaccine of course). If you are fully aware of the risks you are taking and that you expose others to then go ahead but don't scoff at those with a more prudent view.

Exactly. At what point does the number of people dying alone having not seen their family for x months exceed the number of people dying “with” coronavirus. It probably already has.