A few of the posts above remind me of some dystopian sci-fi 'civilisation' where all those who don't meet certain standards of physical or mental fitness are 'terminated'. We may be old, we may have some medical conditions, but we were, and expect to continue to be, active members of our community

As John Donne wrote, no man is an island. The lifestyle of the well-off is sustained by the work of the rest. The worst affected areas of London house the people who clean the offices, and the houses of the wealthy and all the other tasks which we would rather not do, such as caring for the previous generation who made our lifestyle possible.

A couple of months ago Singapore was mentioned alongside S Korea. It then turned out that their immaculate city depended on 200k immigrants who were housed in dormitories in tower blocks with the inevitable consequences. Ditto in UAE etc.

The Greek islands, like the islands up here, are torn between those who are desperate for the visitors to return, and the elderly residents who are terrified, with good reason. Many of the Greek islands have had no cases at all.

i love a chart. Now put that line on a chart that has the population on the world On the Y axis. And a line for all the other causes of death over that period. Then get your magnifying glass out

Helipixman
QED. Sorry but your responses only go to prove just how much you are struggling with all of this mentally - you are coming across increasingly hysterical and paranoid. Of course you won't be the only one.
Please be assured that neither I nor, I believe, anyone else is trying to persuade you to fly anywhere if you don't want to. The notion I struggle with is that if you don't think it's safe for you to fly then you believe no one else should either. That is selfish and wrong.
If you choose to lock yourself and family away through fear of death then fine, I'm certainly not going to tell you that you are wrong. That's your personal choice and you are free to make that choice, but please don't try to deny other people the right to exercise their own choices just because you don't agree with them.

LTN Man
Nice graph and another nice effort at terrifying people. A cumulative graph is always going to go up isn't it? :rolleyes:

Leaving aside the health issues (!), it's not going to be fun is it? Who wants to fly anyway if you can't have a pint at 5 am? :ok:

at last. someone asking the real questions !!

The problem is that the exercise of freedom by some people may have consequences for others. If a few people going on the razzle in Ibiza (other resorts are available) help to spread the virus throughout an entire resort, then they could shut down the whole place for the rest of the summer.
The virus keeps erupting in S Korea, often from the leisure industry.

Wait until you see how many smoking related deaths there are a year.

I shall go further,the last world war was fought and won for freedom and all that....But you lot have thrown in the towel in a matter of a few months..

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you can't drink beer at 5 am. A nice G and T would be much better!

Surely it's you who have surrendered - the virus has come some people have died or will do so, the rest will carry on living. Rather like France at the start of WW2.

That is a double-edged sword. Consider the devastating consequences already baked in for young families across the UK. Jobs lost, savings exhausted, income terminated, debts spiralling, eviction worries, kids bottled up at home freaking out. Stress, anxiety, loneliness, depression, suicide. Alcoholism, gambling, drug abuse, self-harm, domestic battery. Marital break-ups. Broken homes. Untreated medical issues of all kinds ignored for the duration of the C-19 crisis. Elective surgeries cancelled. Time-critical new cancers undiagnosed.

C-19 risks lives. And so does the prescribed C-19 remedy. Just different lives. Generally, younger ones. With many years of quality life ahead of them if allowed to thrive and prosper as they should.

The good news is that we do have the means to protect the truly vulnerable in care homes, hospitals and hospices. Those with serious vulnerabilities in the wider community can be supported in their entirely understandable wish to continue to shield themselves. But we don't need to imprison the young and the healthy indefinitely to achieve this. We don't have to completely obliterate their prospects for the future. We can move to a consensual system of discretionary self-isolation for those who feel they need it. And a return to something resembling normal for everybody else.

If only it was simple to segregate the vulnerable from the healthy by some form of apartheid. But the elders have a great deal to contribute to the wider society and as much a need to be part of it as the young.
Quite apart from the fact that people who assist in the support of the vulnerable are younger and have families.
Or that the elderly are the backbone of the winter sun holiday market.

Nobody is proposing to sacrifice the elderly. But we do need to consider the legitimate needs of everybody else too. It is a matter of balance. We can protect vulnerable groups whilst restoring normality for the rest.

I agree that's the way it's going. But can that aspiration be achieved on the route and timeline the UK Govt is going down? We have an R number somewhere around 0.8. We do not have track and trace ready. We have an NHS which has gone to hell and back in the last three months. We seem to be prioritising getting the pubs open and having a good holiday over getting the schools fully functioning in Sept. The question is whether we are really on the most secure pathway to achieving a successfully managed return to normality. I guess we will know in Nov/Dec.

Very good comment that gets to the heart of the matter. It is all well and good to ease restrictions but when you haven't used those precious few months to get a proper infrastructure in place, this could well be a recipe for disaster come autumn/winter.

If airports and airlines put in place strict Covid-19 control measures and ensure that every passenger uses the sanitiser, the face masks, the gloves and the distancing then flying will be seen as safe again by many people. I do agree that the UK government's apparent focus on getting the pubs open over preparing schools properly seems unbalanced. If we don't get all the pupils back to school soon then how can everyone return to work? It won't be easy and it needs investment. The dangers remain - I see that a primary school headteacher in Somerset is now in hospital with C-19 following the return of some pupils on June 1st, for example.

FFMan

You say I am paranoid about flying, its not just about the flying, its all the other parts of a holiday that currently would not be enjoyable. If it was OK to start taking risks you obviously would. But you cannot because the FCO are still advising against all non essential travel. Why ? because you would be at RISK So why don't you contact the UK Governement and tell them they are being Paranoid ?

You are very lucky I am not reporting you to the Moderator for stating I need Psychiatric help after all, like you I am only stating my opinion.

Did I see everyone in Benidorm sitting on the beach wearing face masks and socially distanced in marked out squares, I am sure it was on the TV last night! Seriously, that is not my idea of a holiday!!

Covid-19 Tracing App

Those on this thread who are criticising the lack of a UK track and tracing app and see it as being the golden bullet to stop a second wave of the virus will be disappointed to hear what the French Digital Minister (an interesting concept!) has just said in a press conference. In the 3 weeks since it was launched less than 3% (1.9 million people) of the French population have downloaded it. More than half a million have subsequently deleted it and it has received very low levels of satisfaction.

Maybe the way to go is actually the old fashioned phone call, email or text message system as currently the UK uses - provided it is efficiently operated. I have no axe to grind for either system but an app solution doesn't seem to necessarily be a given.

The FCO Advise will almost certainly change with the air bridges.

The app is useful but relies on everyone having smart phones, and of course a lot don't trust the privacy of it.

It will be useful for some but still think the calls will be best suited overall.

Yes I agree it will have to change but currently they deem enough risk to not change it yet, and remember a small part of Germany has re-entered lockdown, just hope nobody from that area has gone on holiday ? It is very quick to spread.

Gütersloh, the area in Germany where a lockdown is being imposed, is not a place that most tourists visit. One of its main tourist attractions is the Miele museum of washing machines
https://www.miele.de/haushalt/miele-museum-5118.htm

Used to have quite a few RAF and BAOR types back in the day !!

I agree the app was over-hyped in the first place. The issue really is whether we have the boots on the ground to cope with tracking, tracing and isolating the downstream from 1000 confirmed new cases per day. And then what compliance rate we can achieve.

So far many of the 25k tracers have either been let go or are sat watching netflix.

I'm happy for them to sit watching Netflix if that's because the levels of infection are reducing and the system is coping easily with contacting those it needs to.

Not sure it has much to do with risk rather not wanting to look complete fools by lifting 3 weeks after imposing. They may look less foolish if they lift after we are now opening pubs and reducing to 1m. It was a ridiculous decision in the first place of course

Sounds like my job...

Very much so!

Taken from a well known newspaper.
THE European Commission has warned the UK could face a legal battle over the plans for air bridges unless it opens them to all EU countries with similar coronavirus rates. Nearly all EU countries have lower infection rates than the UK but the government criteria are understood to include economic benefits based on the tourist market in each country. So far approximately 10 countries which include France, Spain, Italy and Greece have been targeted for "air bridges", with many other low-risk destinations on the continent excluded.

Dominic Raab, the Foreign Secretary, previously admitted: "If you open up the airports and don't open up the Eurotunnel or if you open up to one country but not in relation to others, there is always a risk of a legal challenge."

Prof Steve Peers, an expert on EU law at the University of Essex, warned this could be seen as discriminatory.

Anybody else noticed all sandrag’s posts seem to be trying to send traffic to other sites?

Reported as clickbait/advertising.

Thanks folks. My colleague has done what is needed. Your help in watching out for this kind of thing is appreciated.

https://travelweekly.co.uk/articles/...igua-confirmed

Maybe signs that a step away from the "essential travel only" advice is on the horizon?
Will be interesting to see if BA relaunch from LGW or move it around the M25 to LHR.

Just the latest example or how the EU still wants to run the UK. I don’t remember the EU laying down the law when other EU nations were selective who could travel.

And they are quire right too!

To be fair i think they've said if a low enough rate of infection, sounds like Boris may be looking at it anyway, now suggestions the initial list is going to be 50 countries with more as the month progresses although a proportion are "island nations you probably wont likely visit!"

To fair an EU wide agreement makes sense but imagine the sticking point on that is maybe Sweden's situation?

We don't know that the EU are laying down the law. Any EU laws that we are required to follow are the ones that Boris Johnson signed up to (all of them) in January to "Get Brexit Done". He could have walked away but chose not to because he knows that we need a relationship with the EU and he was already PM by then. I expect he will do the same by 31st December.

Three months ago countries closed their borders to prevent the spread. Health is a national, not an EU matter so that was allowed.
As we release, the EU has a role in ensuring fairness - no favours to friendly countries.
We seem to be moving towards some consistency, the problems being Sweden, Portugal and any other country where the virus breaks out in substantial numbers. Releasing most countries will make it easier to enforce quarantine on arrivals from the rest.