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chaps1954 7th Jun 2020 21:19

Thought AC had pulled out of TSC deal last week


Navpi 8th Jun 2020 08:16

The topic of frieght rears its head because I have former colleagues still struggling daily with supply chain issues in the NHS.

One of the procurement staff in a hospital I'm close to in the N West read out an airway bill where the supply had come in via Cardiff. Even they raised an eyebrow suggesting

"I thought this would have come in via Manchester or Liverpool. When they queried this they were told by the shipping company there is no capacity at Manchester or indeed Liverpool ?

These goods had been sat in S Wales since last Monday despite the North of England having a major international gateway serving 5 major cities and being at the centre of one of the largest population areas in Europe.

The Manchester airport board should be DEMANDING that these goods are shipped direct.

Dressing this up as a finance issue is absolutely ludiocrous.

Is Manchester so threadbare that there are no staff available to execute even the semblance of a basic operation?

Maybe it's time they got the army in to run the place.

All I'm hearing is excuse after excuse after excuse in everything that Manchester does. Its light years away from the "can do " attitude when the likes of Peter Hampson and Chris Walkden were running the show.

If Manchester is full , rather than everyone sit on their collective hands why are we not able to tow a unit off for 3 hours , handle a feight movement then tow it back or is that "too hard".

Are we so overburdened that handling 6 movements a day gives everyone in Olympic House a nervous breakdown?

As for refusing to park aircraft on RW2 because of the logistics, I would suggest we send management down to Bournemouth or Cardiff. They currently have aircraft shoehorned into every availble part of the airfield but somehow seem able to cope quite easily with 120plus stored units.. and handle NHS A340 movements on a daily basis.








UnderASouthernSky 8th Jun 2020 08:29


Originally Posted by Navpi (Post 10805452)
The topic of frieght rears its head because I have former colleagues still struggling daily with supply chain issues in the NHS.

One of the procurement staff in a hospital I'm close to in the N West read out an airway bill where the supply had come in via Cardiff. Even they raised an eyebrow suggesting

"I thought this would have come in via Manchester or Liverpool.

These goods had been in S Wales since last Monday despite the North of England having a major international gateway serving 5 major cities.

Dressing this up as a finance issue is absolutely ludiocrous.

Is Manchester so threadbare that there are no staff available to execute even the semblance of a basic operation?

Maybe it's time they got the army in to run the place.

All I'm hearing is excuse after excuse after excuse in everything that Manchester does. Its light years away from the "can do " attitude when the likes of Peter Hampson and Chris Walkden were running the show.

If Manchester is full , rather than everyone sit on their collective hands why are we able not able to tow a unit off for 3 hours , handle a feight movement then tow it back or is that "too hard".

Are we so overburdened that handling 6 movements a day gives everyone in Olympic House a nervous breakdown?

As for refusing to park aircraft on RW2 because of the logistics, I would suggest we send management down to Bournemouth or Cardiff. They currently have aircraft shoehorned into every availble part of the airfield but somehow seem able to cope quite easily with 124 stored aircraft..... and handle NHS movements on a daily basis.

How do you know that 90% of the PPE on the flight to Cardiff wasn't destined for facilities in Wales/West of England/South West? In which case the preference could be to take the flight into an airport closer to the majority of end users. We clearly don't have enough knowledge about loads, flight, landing & handling costs and how the NHS supply chain works to answer this topic. There may also be a pr/political angle to certain airports wanting to be seen to be accepting these flights.

MAN777 8th Jun 2020 09:02

NAVPI

Comparing Bournemouth to MAN is comparing apples and oranges. One is a rambling old site with acres of old taxiways and a tiny operation at the best of times, the other is a very large multi billion site with a worldwide operation that has slowed but will begin to pick up rapidly in the next couple of months.
If you loose a single runway for whatever reason thats it, game over, if you have the luxury of a second runway that can be re opened rapidly that is a major attraction to airlines. Runway 2 at MAN is predominantly of asphalt construction it has a PCN sufficient for all aircraft types, however its very expensive runway surface could be susceptible to asphalt degradation should any fuel or oils leak onto the surface from a stored airliner, that then could becomes an expensive repair bill. The asphalt used on a runway is part of a finely engineered surface that has to cope with the weight, exhaust temperature and thrust of aircraft and provide friction characteristics that allow safe braking and steering at high speed, thats why aprons are usually made of tough thick Concrete that can withstand prolonged weights and leaky old Virgin 747s !

MANFOD 8th Jun 2020 09:12


Originally Posted by UnderASouthernSky (Post 10805459)
How do you know that 90% of the PPE on the flight to Cardiff wasn't destined for facilities in Wales/West of England/South West? In which case the preference could be to take the flight into an airport closer to the majority of end users. We clearly don't have enough knowledge about loads, flight, landing & handling costs and how the NHS supply chain works to answer this topic. There may also be a pr/political angle to certain airports wanting to be seen to be accepting these flights.

So are you suggesting that the NW has no demand for PPE and other equipment in its own right with its significant population and large hospitals for example in the vicinity of the two airports? It's the absence of such direct flights here in recent weeks that's difficult to understand. And I suspect NAVPI has rather more knowledge of how the NHS supply chain works than you assume.

BHX5DME 8th Jun 2020 09:17

PPE Freighters
 

Originally Posted by MANFOD (Post 10805512)
So are you suggesting that the NW has no demand for PPE and other equipment in its own right with its significant population and large hospitals for example in the vicinity of the two airports? It's the absence of such direct flights here in recent weeks that's difficult to understand. And I suspect NAVPI has rather more knowledge of how the NHS supply chain works than you assume.

Yes seems strange that MAN are not getting any of these flights, BHX are also getting lots of Russian freighters, an Azul 763 inbound shortly and two 777's this week too.

MANFOD 8th Jun 2020 09:50


Originally Posted by BHX5DME (Post 10805518)
Yes seems strange that MAN are not getting any of these flights, .

Strange maybe, but not a total surprise to some of us.

Quoting Navpi:
If Manchester is full , rather than everyone sit on their collective hands why are we not able to tow a unit off for 3 hours , handle a freight movement then tow it back or is that "too hard".
Quite right. And this wouldn't necessarily involve R2. Finding somewhere on the airfield to temporarily park an aircraft that's not going anywhere else while a freighter is handled wouldn't seem to be mission impossible. We're not talking 10 freighters a day or other large movements of a/c happening on the airfield.

Like NAVPI, I well remember the days when the kind of people he mentions under the leadership of the late Sir Gil Thompson had a more proactive 'can-do' approach. There is a perception, rightly or wrongly, that this is no longer the case. As we eventually come out of this crisis, it's a perception that MAN needs to dispel.


SWBKCB 8th Jun 2020 09:53

Rather than space, I would imagine labour is more of an issue. Emptying a widebody that has been bulk loaded isn't a trivial task, where are the people to do the odd flight?

Navpi 8th Jun 2020 10:06


Originally Posted by SWBKCB (Post 10805550)
Rather than space, I would imagine labour is more of an issue. Emptying a widebody that has been bulk loaded isn't a trivial task, where are the people to do the odd flight?

.....if MAN has no staff give Doncaster, Birmingham, East Midlands, Bournemouth, or Cardiff a call.

They seem to have plenty staff.

Navpi 8th Jun 2020 10:47


Originally Posted by MAN777 (Post 10805496)
NAVPI

Comparing Bournemouth to MAN is comparing apples and oranges. One is a rambling old site with acres of old taxiways and a tiny operation at the best of times, the other is a very large multi billion site with a worldwide operation that has slowed but will begin to pick up rapidly in the next couple of months.
If you loose a single runway for whatever reason thats it, game over, if you have the luxury of a second runway that can be re opened rapidly that is a major attraction to airlines. Runway 2 at MAN is predominantly of asphalt construction it has a PCN sufficient for all aircraft types, however its very expensive runway surface could be susceptible to asphalt degradation should any fuel or oils leak onto the surface from a stored airliner, that then could becomes an expensive repair bill. The asphalt used on a runway is part of a finely engineered surface that has to cope with the weight, exhaust temperature and thrust of aircraft and provide friction characteristics that allow safe braking and steering at high speed, thats why aprons are usually made of tough thick Concrete that can withstand prolonged weights and leaky old Virgin 747s !

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With all due respect I think we are once again looking at what we can't do versus what we can and indeed should be doing.

I honestly don't think we are going to need a 2nd runway for months if not years quite frankly..

That's point 1 but if the mindset is wrapping it in kid gloves, given the highly remote chance we may have fuel ingress or need to use it in case of an emergency with 6 movements per day , whilst potentially losing £1m+ revenue we really have lost our way.

Yes traffic will increase in the weeks to come but saving RW2 on a "just in case basis" seems to be taking precautions to the extreme.

The board of MAG whilst mindful of the potential issues MAN777 raises need to be equally aware of striking a balance.

Feight clearly bound for users in the N West needs to be shipped to the N West and not a sprinkling of airports 4 and 5 hours away with resulting delays in delivery.

Yes a balance has to be taken , but in my view there appears (from the outside), to be an appetite to sit back and do nothing.

I will reiterate Manchester, should as others have done be actively encouraging such flights and making sure they play as active a part as is possible not looking at a spreadsheet about " maximising revenue " at other group airports or worse shrugging shoulders and putting the closed sign up..

The number of flights handled by Manchester in respect of PPE is derisory compared to its status as the largest airport outside London and before the crisis one of the largest in Europe.

Gtr Manchester taxpayers are subsidising the airport to the tune of £250m, quite right, over the years they have benefited enormously from millions in dividends, but Manchester should still be maximising EVERY opportunity in every way possible to generate revenue, and might I add, assist its citizens in the broader effort of providing logistical healthcare support.

Instead of leading from the front MANCHESTER appears to be giving the impression they can't be bothered.











inOban 8th Jun 2020 10:58

Does MAN have the on-site warehousing to let it become a logistics hub?

Navpi 8th Jun 2020 11:21


Originally Posted by inOban (Post 10805622)
Does MAN have the on-site warehousing to let it become a logistics hub?

Probably Yes...

spannersatcx 8th Jun 2020 12:46


Originally Posted by Navpi (Post 10805613)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manchester should still be maximising EVERY opportunity in every way possible to generate revenue,

.

Well it is putting up the office rent! even though most of them are empty at the moment as airline staff are mostly furloughed and sat at home. :ugh:

750XL 8th Jun 2020 12:58

Why not send them to CWL/BOH/STN/BHX or wherever else that may be.

5 hours by road for the last leg of the cargo's journey is insignificant, it makes barely any difference whether it's offloaded at MAN or CWL. It'll probably still get to the hospital in the same amount of time.


MAN777 8th Jun 2020 15:34

Yes MAG bean counters have probably done their sums and come up with “its not worth it” answer.

Income from a freight movement I would say is less than that of a PAX aircraft, you have the movement fee and a percentage of concessionaires income such as fuel. There would be no income from PAX handling, car parking, shop and food sales etc.

Chaps is much more qualified on the subject and Im sure he could clarify my points.

I am a huge supporter of MAN and would love to see the lines of 747 freighters once again but while the group has 2 of the largest freight hub airports on its accounts sheet why bother ?

pwalhx 8th Jun 2020 19:42

I can confirm after 40 years working in or associated with the freight business I have never had a single complaint from cargo about which airport it landed at.

OzzyOzBorn 8th Jun 2020 21:24


but while the group has 2 of the largest freight hub airports on its accounts sheet why bother ?
Because those two airports serve different regions of the UK.

750XL 8th Jun 2020 22:06


Originally Posted by OzzyOzBorn (Post 10806131)
Because those two airports serve different regions of the UK.

Cargo doesn't care where it's delivered to. A few hours by road at the end of a week long journey from China doesn't make a difference.

You've only got to post something by UK > UK next day delivery using a courier service such as Hermes etc to see the bizarre routes parcels take, to get from say, Liverpool to Manchester.

Liverpool > East Midlands parcel depot > Manchester

MAN777 8th Jun 2020 22:06

Freight unlike PAX doesn't really care where it flies from, long road journeys at the beginning and end of a cargo flight is completely normal, thats why hundreds of wagons leave consolidation warehouses all over the North every week and head for East Midlands, Stansted, Heathrow, Amsterdam, Leige and countless other air freight hubs. It is no longer Manchester's business model to handle dedicated freighters.
It will be interesting to see what happens to the UK - China airbridge flights once we no longer need vast quantities of PPE and the growing trend of not buying Chinese goods kicks in

WOW 750XL exact same time post and content, are we twins ?

SCFC1EP 8th Jun 2020 22:32

WOW750XL/MAN777 Spot on

You have the largest cargo dedicated airport in the UK just 2 hours down the road, with all the extra staff and equipment needed, and being used all the time every day add extra 6 flights a day would not be a problem this is what its been developed on and recently more cargo space been provided over the last 3-4 years the size the area has increased to is huge, if 6 extra cargo flights attempted to get in MAN in a week they would struggle.,
Probably get the cargo off the plane quicker at EMA process it through the system load onto truck drive to it's destination in North west quicker than doing the same at MAN why? they got bigger manpower/equipment and distribution.
Why invest at MAN with cargo operations when all the money is being spent on Terminals
Manchester is not turning business away they;re just redirecting it to there dedicated Cargo airports the money still goes into the big pot covering MAN/EMA/STN


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