Flybe-V2

[biddedout]

Originally Posted by CaptainActor

Changing subject as bit and I think it has been asked before.
Normally there is someone from flybe who would post on here. I know it will probably be a torrid time for time for them at the moment but an inside opinion on the last nine months would be interesting.

The Administrator's initial report should make interesting reading. I wonder if it will reveal how much the investor put in and when the taps were turned off and how much the investor expects to recover.

[BA318]

Originally Posted by SWBKCB

The Londonderry route beIng talked about by LM is also a PSO.

I'm still not clear on how this works. So have the slots gone back to BA, who can then lease/loan them to whoever, unless somebody wants to use them on LHR-Aberdeen, LHR-Edinburgh, LHR-Nice, LHR-Cairo and LHR-Riyadh?

My understanding is that BA can do what they want with the slots until told to hand them to someone else who has requested them for use of the route you mention. So expect to see NQY or LBA make a reappearance for summer.

[Wycombe]

Originally Posted by BA318

My understanding is that BA can do what they want with the slots until told to hand them to someone else who has requested them for use of the route you mention. So expect to see NQY or LBA make a reappearance for summer.

BA had already stated they weren't going back to NQY from LHR this summer but that was before Flybe v2 ceased ops.

[mmeteesside]

Originally Posted by Wycombe

BA had already stated they weren't going back to NQY from LHR this summer but that was before Flybe v2 ceased ops.

They’ll have another few slots to ensure they use now though… don’t want to lose them after all!

[SealinkBF]

A good article from Head for Points explaining the whole slot situation. Mind you, it does end with:

"It also isn’t clear how the ‘use it or lose it’ rule will be applied here. Even if BA starts flying each slot between now and the end of the Winter season in late March, will they hit the 80% utilisation target to avoid it being forfeited?"

Flybe returns 86 weekly Heathrow slots to British Airways (headforpoints.com)

[RogueOne]

Sent to Flybe employees this week. Confirming that Flybe didn't recognise Balpa, therefore they can't make a claim for a protective award on their members behalf. Makes you wonder what they paid membership fees for, if at all?

Dear all,

I hope you have all received the required information from Flybe/Interpath to commence your claims from the National Insurance Fund. We continue to liaise with the Administrators to ensure that they are doing everything that is required to provide you with support regarding the insolvency.

In parallel, BALPA’s appointed lawyers are continuing to review the legal claim against Flybe. As with all things “legal” it is never straight forward and always more complex than it first appears. An important point has been raised from BALPA’s lawyers acting on your behalf and I need your help to check this out.

As you know, with Flybe 2.0 we had not yet progressed to discussions about union recognition so unlike the scenario with Flybe 1.0 BALPA is unable to make a claim on behalf of its members for the failure to consult with the union collectively. In the current situation, for the purposes of pursuing a claim for a protective award pursuant to s.189(1)(a) TULRCA 1992, which is for failure relating to the election of employee representatives, it is necessary to confirm that Flybe did not have in place any representative body with which it usually consulted/provided information. That is to say were any of you aware of a pilot consultative body and were any pilots elected to it? This is something that the employer would instigate. This is because under s.188(1B) TULRCA 1992 the employer can choose to consult with either employee representatives who are already elected or employee representatives who are elected for the purpose of consulting on the redundancy.

If there were appropriate representatives already in place or specifically elected for the closure of the airline, then as individual pilots you would have no standing i.e. you would not be able to bring individual claims against Flybe. Instead, you would have to raise a complaint with the appropriate employee representative who would have locus to bring the claim.

Grateful if, by return, you could confirm whether you were aware of any pilot representative body that was arranged for consultation purposes. I very much doubt that Flybe 2.0 would have organised a representative body for pilots as they were anticipating BALPA recognition in due course once the airline was fully embedded and up to speed.

Thanks for your assistance. With the information requested our lawyers will be able to get on with the process of advising you on the protective award claim.

Kind regards

[cavokblues]

The administrator's report is out - https://www.ia-insolv.com/case+INTER...N125F0937.html and then click on 'Joint Administrator's Proposals.'

They were losing between £4m-£5m a month and they owe Dlp Holdings S.À R.L. £49m.

Interestingly, Dlp Holdings S.À R.L. are the same company who founded Connect Airways who bought the old airline in 2019. So we can finally dismiss the suggestion this was ever a brand new airline - it was always propped up by the same people who were in charge for the final year of the previous incarnation's existence.

The report also confirms the slots were not owned by Flybe as it states:

"there were a number of challenges for Flybe to retain its rights to its slots and to ultimately realise value for them. Unfortunately, the slots at Heathrow which were highly prized in the industry were not Flybe’s to sell or transfer – they were held under an agreement with BA through a European Commission-decreed arrangement. Those slots reverted to BA once they were in jeopardy of the use-it-or-lose-it rule in the absence of a buyer for the Company emerging. Similarly, Amsterdam slots are subject to the rules of Airport Coordination Netherlands, who were unwilling to agree a transfer absent the sale of the Company and its Operating Licence, or a similar substantial transfer of the Flybe business. No offers were received for the airline’s slots, and they were returned to the pool by the relevant slot coordinators."

[biddedout]

Interesting to read that the administrators were first contacted back in August 22 then brought in to start working on a controlled administration in early January even though at the same time the company was recruiting and starting courses for pilots and cabin crew. They knew people were going to great expense to move to Belfast / Birmingham and in some cases give up other jobs, and yet they were busy planning to potentially pull the plug.

Funny how in January, the board, the highly paid consultants and the administrators didn't realise that they were supposed to be consulting about possible redundancies and not recruiting more staff.

Come on Interpath, this stinks. How about compensation rather than pay-outs to secured creditors?

[BA318]

Interestingly it basically proves the sceptics here correct. Much of what was said is exactly what is in this report.

[Rutan16]

Originally Posted by Rutan16

I think you are wrong on some of those points specifically award without notice

To confirm a status in the first place requires a judgement via tribunal ( that s one of the advantages of union membership 👍&#127996

Award payment if authorised is £571 per week max or prorated and any already paid monies and holiday entitlement is deducted

And all subject to the contractual notice period and through I can’t find it there must be a minimum qualifying period before eligibility

No one can expect 3 months salary in this case even the max payment is capped at eight weeks

With current abysmal contracts of employment there is every likelihood of just 1 weeks notice and any prorated holiday entitlement being what’s owed less the 5 days already paid to end January

Originally Posted by RogueOne

No, but they will be entitled to a protective award. Redundancy without consultation - and be paid their notice period, which will usually be 3 months salary for all flying roles made redundant. Takes 12-18 months to get this money, and because the company is in administration and without funds, it gets paid by the Redundancy Payments Office (so taxpayers footing the bill)

What makes it complicated this time is that with Flybe1 - most people had Union representation, Balpa, Unite etc and they brought the claim. This time Flybe2 had no union recognition, or Company Council, or collective bargaining. So unless the employees were Balpa members on their own, someone will have to take on the case for them.

Now seems not as no recognition or internal association arrangements were completed, very disappointing for all .

[BusterHot]

Originally Posted by BA318

Interestingly it basically proves the sceptics here correct. Much of what was said is exactly what is in this report.

Anyone that was in Flybe 1 would have told you that when this bunch of shysters set up Mk 2. It was never anything but an exercise in clawing back money they lost when they thought they could make a quick buck out of Mk 1. I’m pretty sure that if Covid hadn’t come along and put the final nail in the coffin, that the 2 leading members that took over for £0.01p/share in 2019, would have quietly transferred the LHR slots, then sold off the rest to the first sucker that came along. Bitter? You bet I am.

[anothertyke]

Originally Posted by BusterHot

Anyone that was in Flybe 1 would have told you that when this bunch of shysters set up Mk 2. It was never anything but an exercise in clawing back money they lost when they thought they could make a quick buck out of Mk 1. I’m pretty sure that if Covid hadn’t come along and put the final nail in the coffin, that the 2 leading members that took over for £0.01p/share in 2019, would have quietly transferred the LHR slots, then sold off the rest to the first sucker that came along. Bitter? You bet I am.

But the LHR slots were never theirs to transfer were they? It was a huge bet that they ever would be.

Doubling down on your losses, wow. That report makes for a chastening read. And this liquidation stuff doesn't come cheap does it.

[BusterHot]

Originally Posted by anothertyke

But the LHR slots were never theirs to transfer were they? It was a huge bet that they ever would be.

Doubling down on your losses, wow. That report makes for a chastening read. And this liquidation stuff doesn't come cheap does it.

No they weren’t, but who knows what might have gone on if they’d actually become part of the “red tail” mob, Virgin Connect, as was planned and then perhaps slot transfers within the group might have been tried. But that’s all semantics now.

With the track record of 2 of the 3 players it never seemed that “Flybe”, the airline, were high on their list of priorities; survival of Virgin (mainline) was and forever will be. But what the whole package contained and what good parts they could use for their advantage was more their aim I believe. Because as sure as “God made little green apples”, big changes would have had to be made to make it profitable or they’d have wound it all up in a heart beat. And if you don’t believe me, have a read of Tom Bower’s books on Sir R B.

[biddedout]

Agree Buster. Covid confused everything and its worth considering what might have happened without that and if Virgin Express had developed. Its easy to say people were suckers to get involved in Mk 2 but for many pilots they at least managed to get Type ratings and IR's out of it and are employable again. It's the office staff and Cabin Crew I feel sorry for. Many gave up other jobs and moved location all on the back of a deception. There should be an investigation into who knew what and Interpath's role in all this should also be looked at. They may have been doing their best to sort out some sort of pre-pack but the way staff were lured in right at the end was sheer deception.

[Asturias56]

That's what happens in any business in any industry that's near the edge. If you stop taking bookings, or stop hiring then word is out , everyone takes to the hills and your credit evaporates. And those you owe money to grab whatever assets they can - immediately.

You plug on hoping that somehow it will all come good.

And sometimes that happens - we always hear about the ones that go over the edge but there are quite a few that survive near-death experiences and continue for years

I've been in both

[Albert Hall]

Although BALPA and Unite were not recognised by Flybe 2, there's absolutely no reason for them (and any other union) to use that as an excuse to walk away from their responsibilities to any employee who was a member of the union.

I'm no insolvency expert but I think there may be a path here that interested parties could take. The fixed and floating charge over Flybe 2's assets was taken on 15 August 2022, which the administrator's report says was around the time that the shareholder was looking for other options to fund the business.

If you take a fixed charge over assets and the company then goes bust a short time afterwards, the validity and effectiveness of that charge can be called into question after the event. So where DLP/Cyrus is expected to get a significant pay-out from the administrators, that is only on the basis of the fixed and floating charge placing it as a secured creditor. Changing that might make a very big difference to the amounts owing to the poor sods left out of a job by this charade. One for the unions to pick up on behalf of their members.

[biddedout]

Very good point Albert.

Cyrus may argue that they pumped a lot of money in an want some of it back, but it was presumably they who were insisting on the charade of flying empty aircraft around just to preserve slots. The actual frontline managers might have been able to achieve more and get it up and running as a proper regional airline flying more appropriate routes has they not had aircraft crew and resources tied up on the "other" project.
Interpath would have know that this was going on and must have known that staff were being deceived. Even days before collapse there were announcements going out about freshly secured staff travel deals. Not the sort of thing that a company going down the tubes would be worried about. Everyone knew it was risky but there was a very good deception going on to suggest normality. All done under the noses of Interpath.

Asturias. I agree, and take you r point about trying to keep it normal and hoping it will come good. Without Covid, Mk one under Virgin connect might just have survived a near death experience. There were a few of those on the way.

The sad thing is that I hear one or two of their normal routes were actually starting to do well.

[cavokblues]

What I find strange is how the management seemingly did nothing to change course. Interpath were contacted last August, the same time the airline ditched Leeds and launched Newquay and announced Newcastle, with other routes due to start in March 2023.

Was that the big plan to turn around £5m per month losses, flights to Cornwall? I don't get it.

I'm not surprised some routes did well, probably Bhx - Belfast and Scotland did well in terms of bums on seats. Whether they were able to manage the yield to turn a profit on those specific routes is another thing.

[Hearmenow]

HR saw what was coming and paid all employee's a few days earlier than the normal January pay date.
Most were employed for less than two years so limited protection.

If they had gone ATR from the start and not the unreliable Q400 it would still be in business and in partnership with KLM/AF/Delta/Sky Team providing alternative UK regional connectivity from LHR (in competition with IAG) plus the regional P2P routes.
Not getting the aircraft delivered as promised, and naively believing they would be delivered combined with the aircraft in service being so unreliable was the killer. Contrary to popular belief, on the routes where selling seats was the priority they were competing and selling enough seats.
Flying routes to service slot keeping requirements and prioritising those routes (LBA-LHR) added significantly to the £5 mil losses per month.
At least now it's dead and buried for good so everyone can move on, although it is a real shame. 50% of pilots were working their notice period when it folded.

A lot of posters on here can pat themselves on the back for sucessfully predicting the futile nature of the restart. However, I can't recall anyone (including me) predicting the real reasons it would ultimately fail.

[cavokblues]

I'm not so sure the ATR would have been the golden goose. The choice of routes just didnt deliver anywhere near the revenue needed to turn a profit. Their LF barely ever got about 50% and considering the significant competition they were facing on most of the routes they selected they were never going to turn that into a profit, irrespective of it being on an ATR or Dash 8.