Flybe-V2
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What wombat said. My sincere concern is that there may be voices to say that a flybe v.3 is feasible. This gives terrible false hope to ex employees. Flybe is well and truly in a coffin and in the ground. I hope easyjet and Ryanair hold true to their offer and take on ex Flybe staff. Especially crew. I know nothing about the v.2 management so cannot comment. But in regards to v.1; it’s the same old aviation story of people in management who are not talented at all and then let so many people down. And it is them who started this sordid affair.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Dark side of the Moon
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let this be the death knell in any future version of Flybe, the awful Q400 and any idea that the UK needs lots of regional competition. It needs regional consolidation if anything. Not teenagers squabbling over razor-thin routes and margins, PSOs, fights with mainline subsidised operations..
Flybe v2 for all the veiled 'good intentions' of the management staff who set it up, were really just a tool of the investors. The ultimate reality is that they cared very little for the employees (despite being told this was a new caring Flybe) and this is borne out in the wages, the terms and conditions, zero lifestyle protections (not that it was a problem as crews did minimal flying), legal minimum pension contribution, statutory sick pay only... the list can and does go on. & yes this was v2 - but all the good work the v1 Company Council had done in the past, all the good ideas to look after crews... it was dropped out of anything to do with v2.
They say "don't be sad that it's over, be happy that it happened" - I think in this instance, everyone involved should be sad they had a year of their life wasted.
Flybe v2 for all the veiled 'good intentions' of the management staff who set it up, were really just a tool of the investors. The ultimate reality is that they cared very little for the employees (despite being told this was a new caring Flybe) and this is borne out in the wages, the terms and conditions, zero lifestyle protections (not that it was a problem as crews did minimal flying), legal minimum pension contribution, statutory sick pay only... the list can and does go on. & yes this was v2 - but all the good work the v1 Company Council had done in the past, all the good ideas to look after crews... it was dropped out of anything to do with v2.
They say "don't be sad that it's over, be happy that it happened" - I think in this instance, everyone involved should be sad they had a year of their life wasted.
Telegraph reporting that both AF-KLM and Lufthansa are "circling" Flybe with a view to acquiring their slots at LHR and AMS. It is understood that, to access these slots, they will have to purchase the airline as it stands.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: London
Posts: 746
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last edited by fjencl; 4th Feb 2023 at 19:16. Reason: new
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Nantgarw
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If a firm was to buy Flybe (which is still a legally trading entity and thus still holds its AOC) in its entirety, would it be possible to transfer the slots which are apparently now "owned" immediately to the buyer's own AOC? Or are they still under the remedy slots ruling?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is frankly a bit of a guess but I think they’d still be remedy slots so the new buyer of flybe2 would have to use them for their intended purpose. It would be interesting watching LH or KL/AF trying to use some of them for UK domestic competition. They would presumably have to keep a UK AOC holder for that purpose (Flybe 3 ?). Hopefully someone who knows the score will be along to comment here in due course.
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: .
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Slots aside the airline must be worth zilch as it made no money and has hardly any assets. What's stopping anyone buying the airline, taking the slots and closing everything else down?
(Assuming the slots are transferable, which is far from clear. Why did the Flybe go to such much hassle trying to claim the slots grandfathered to the old airline if they could just get their own slots so easily? That alone suggests these are just remedy slots)
(Assuming the slots are transferable, which is far from clear. Why did the Flybe go to such much hassle trying to claim the slots grandfathered to the old airline if they could just get their own slots so easily? That alone suggests these are just remedy slots)
The slots were originally made available as competition remedies and Flybe (V1) was deemed to have met the utilisation criteria to fly them for six consecutive seasons, at which point they can be used on any other European shorthaul City Pair. The definitions of these are:
"Europe" - The European Union, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and the Channel Islands
"European Shorthaul City Pair(s)" - Any route connecting London with any other part of Europe (which shall, for the avoidance of doubt, include the Identified UK City Pairs)
In essence, the purpose behind the slots were originally provided to Flybe V1 (tied to Aberdeen, Edinburgh routes, independent carrier with no connection with IAG etc etc) is now no longer relevant. The slots are "owned" by British Airways and released under a Slot Release Agreement to Flybe, and the EU decided (more fool them, but that's now history) that Flybe V1 and V2 were one and the same when it came to operation of the remedy slots.
Only Flybe V2 has the rights to use those slots, so anyone wanting the slots would have to acquire Flybe V2 out of administration. This isn't like the collapse of Monarch or Thomas Cook where they had outright ownership to their slots and those slots could be sold (and were). You didn't have to buy all of Monarch Airlines (in administration) to get the slots, for instance.
If Flybe V2 is bought by an entity which is another airline, but itself ceases to exist, can the rights to use those slots be transferred out of Flybe V2 into that other airline? The answer is that I don't know, and I suspect no-one does until this is tested through legal means. There will be legal opinions flying about but until they are tested, they remain opinions and only that.
The whole thing is, at this point, even more scandalous than it was before. Cyrus Capital took a floating charge over Flybe V2's assets last year, presumably as it put more money into the venture. As a secured creditor, it now stands to realise whatever proceeds can be had from sale of the company in administration and the access to the slots within that. The rest of us get left with the tab for picking up the protective notice awards through the Insolvency Service and so the taxpayer takes a complete shafting for this alongside the poor Flybe V2 employees.
"Europe" - The European Union, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and the Channel Islands
"European Shorthaul City Pair(s)" - Any route connecting London with any other part of Europe (which shall, for the avoidance of doubt, include the Identified UK City Pairs)
In essence, the purpose behind the slots were originally provided to Flybe V1 (tied to Aberdeen, Edinburgh routes, independent carrier with no connection with IAG etc etc) is now no longer relevant. The slots are "owned" by British Airways and released under a Slot Release Agreement to Flybe, and the EU decided (more fool them, but that's now history) that Flybe V1 and V2 were one and the same when it came to operation of the remedy slots.
Only Flybe V2 has the rights to use those slots, so anyone wanting the slots would have to acquire Flybe V2 out of administration. This isn't like the collapse of Monarch or Thomas Cook where they had outright ownership to their slots and those slots could be sold (and were). You didn't have to buy all of Monarch Airlines (in administration) to get the slots, for instance.
If Flybe V2 is bought by an entity which is another airline, but itself ceases to exist, can the rights to use those slots be transferred out of Flybe V2 into that other airline? The answer is that I don't know, and I suspect no-one does until this is tested through legal means. There will be legal opinions flying about but until they are tested, they remain opinions and only that.
The whole thing is, at this point, even more scandalous than it was before. Cyrus Capital took a floating charge over Flybe V2's assets last year, presumably as it put more money into the venture. As a secured creditor, it now stands to realise whatever proceeds can be had from sale of the company in administration and the access to the slots within that. The rest of us get left with the tab for picking up the protective notice awards through the Insolvency Service and so the taxpayer takes a complete shafting for this alongside the poor Flybe V2 employees.
The whole thing is, at this point, even more scandalous than it was before. Cyrus Capital took a floating charge over Flybe V2's assets last year, presumably as it put more money into the venture. As a secured creditor, it now stands to realise whatever proceeds can be had from sale of the company in administration and the access to the slots within that. The rest of us get left with the tab for picking up the protective notice awards through the Insolvency Service and so the taxpayer takes a complete shafting for this alongside the poor Flybe V2 employees.
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: .
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the EU grandfathered the rights to the slots to Flybe 2.0 even though the CAA ruled the slots can't be transferred from the old OL from Flybe 1.0 to the new?
In which case, why did Flybe even bother defending themselves in the CAA hearing if they knew they already had them?
In which case, why did Flybe even bother defending themselves in the CAA hearing if they knew they already had them?
So the EU grandfathered the rights to the slots to Flybe 2.0 even though the CAA ruled the slots can't be transferred from the old OL from Flybe 1.0 to the new?
In which case, why did Flybe even bother defending themselves in the CAA hearing if they knew they already had them?
In which case, why did Flybe even bother defending themselves in the CAA hearing if they knew they already had them?
Good question. I'm led to believe that the EU decision didn't come through fast enough, so they had to go through the charade with the CAA. That became irrelevant as far as the LHR remedy slots were concerned once the EU had given its blessing. Why they ever did that - or indeed, why they were even involved when this is effectively a UK matter with no impact on EU trade - is beyond the pale.
Presumably if AF-KL or LH can bid for Flybe v2 (and its LHR slots)... then so can AA, QR or (if it needs to be an EU airline) AY ? I imagine IAG is capable of lending AY some money for this as well aa providing a sweetener ?
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 5th Feb 2023 at 14:30.
I guess they can't if already partnered up with IAG because that was the whole point of the remedy. Do these slots need to come with an AOC attached and some aircraft keeping the route alive or on life support?
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: London
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is possible that the "City sources" cited in The Telegraph article are putting AF-KLM and LH out there to try and drum up more interest from others.
I doubt LH would want another repeat of bmi.
I doubt LH would want another repeat of bmi.