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Flybe-V2

Old 30th Jan 2023, 15:57
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Regardless of what happened with BE2, the CEO is right in that there is still a need for someone to provide competition in the UK domestic market. Despite giants like Easy and Ryan, according to the CAA stats, IAG seem to be holding about 47% of the market in terms of Seat Km available on domestic routes with an almost monopoly on some. Easy may offer one off flights i.e. the stag/ hen late flight out of BHD to LPL but there is still a need for someone to take on IAG's grip on the multi rotation business routes.
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 17:23
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IAG isn''t an airline. There's no overlap between BA's LHR hub operation and Aer Lingus Regional routes to the UK. easyJet compete out of BFS with EI at BHD, that's not insubstatial. I don't see there being room for another turboprop operator.
BA have EZY competing on Scotland to London, I don't see how anyone actually taking on BA into LHR can win. It's just not viable, Virgin and latterly flybe just lost money as runners up. That doesn't mean London is a BA monopoly, just that out of LHR, it's obviously a strong (and likely unbeatable) offering IMHO.

Same goes for BA CityFlyer out of LCY, FR at STN and EZY out of LGW.
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 19:05
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Originally Posted by Rutan16
Thats a positive as few/none will be eligible for any statutory redundancy
No, but they will be entitled to a protective award. Redundancy without consultation - and be paid their notice period, which will usually be 3 months salary for all flying roles made redundant. Takes 12-18 months to get this money, and because the company is in administration and without funds, it gets paid by the Redundancy Payments Office (so taxpayers footing the bill)

What makes it complicated this time is that with Flybe1 - most people had Union representation, Balpa, Unite etc and they brought the claim. This time Flybe2 had no union recognition, or Company Council, or collective bargaining. So unless the employees were Balpa members on their own, someone will have to take on the case for them.
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 19:11
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Originally Posted by biddedout
Regardless of what happened with BE2, the CEO is right in that there is still a need for someone to provide competition in the UK domestic market. Despite giants like Easy and Ryan, according to the CAA stats, IAG seem to be holding about 47% of the market in terms of Seat Km available on domestic routes with an almost monopoly on some. Easy may offer one off flights i.e. the stag/ hen late flight out of BHD to LPL but there is still a need for someone to take on IAG's grip on the multi rotation business routes.
What percentage of BA pax are actually going to London? For these, rail is the competitor and for the rest, KL. AF, EK, LH, etc...
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 19:15
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
IAG isn''t an airline. There's no overlap between BA's LHR hub operation and Aer Lingus Regional routes to the UK. easyJet compete out of BFS with EI at BHD, that's not insubstatial. I don't see there being room for another turboprop operator.
BA have EZY competing on Scotland to London, I don't see how anyone actually taking on BA into LHR can win. It's just not viable, Virgin and latterly flybe just lost money as runners up. That doesn't mean London is a BA monopoly, just that out of LHR, it's obviously a strong (and likely unbeatable) offering IMHO.

Same goes for BA CityFlyer out of LCY, FR at STN and EZY out of LGW.
I was just commenting on the lack of competition generally. Have a look at booking a flight from BHD to MAN this Friday.
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 21:11
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
IAG isn''t an airline. There's no overlap between BA's LHR hub operation and Aer Lingus Regional routes to the UK. easyJet compete out of BFS with EI at BHD, that's not insubstatial. I don't see there being room for another turboprop operator.
BA have EZY competing on Scotland to London, I don't see how anyone actually taking on BA into LHR can win. It's just not viable, Virgin and latterly flybe just lost money as runners up. That doesn't mean London is a BA monopoly, just that out of LHR, it's obviously a strong (and likely unbeatable) offering IMHO.

Same goes for BA CityFlyer out of LCY, FR at STN and EZY out of LGW.
Agreed. Where would you even begin these days as a start up? You're not going to be able to offer the same perks which attracts the BA gold card holders and you're not going to be large enough either to truly compete with the low cost airlines on economies of scale and efficiencies. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

A tightly run ship probably could make small margins in other areas of the country with regional flying but the returns are minimal. Look at Loganair - a 3% profit margin and , actually, their scheduled flying ops lost them money.

It's tough out there.
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 17:00
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Originally Posted by RogueOne
No, but they will be entitled to a protective award. Redundancy without consultation - and be paid their notice period, which will usually be 3 months salary for all flying roles made redundant. Takes 12-18 months to get this money, and because the company is in administration and without funds, it gets paid by the Redundancy Payments Office (so taxpayers footing the bill)

What makes it complicated this time is that with Flybe1 - most people had Union representation, Balpa, Unite etc and they brought the claim. This time Flybe2 had no union recognition, or Company Council, or collective bargaining. So unless the employees were Balpa members on their own, someone will have to take on the case for them.
I think you are wrong on some of those points specifically award without notice

To confirm a status in the first place requires a judgement via tribunal ( that s one of the advantages of union membership 👍&#127996

Award payment if authorised is £571 per week max or prorated and any already paid monies and holiday entitlement is deducted

And all subject to the contractual notice period and through I canít find it there must be a minimum qualifying period before eligibility

No one can expect 3 months salary in this case even the max payment is capped at eight weeks

With current abysmal contracts of employment there is every likelihood of just 1 weeks notice and any prorated holiday entitlement being whatís owed less the 5 days already paid to end January

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Old 31st Jan 2023, 17:36
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Was it true the Flybe v.2 crew signed an NDA to not talk about theyíre wages etc.
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 17:52
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Does that still stand if the airline has gone under?
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 19:34
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Originally Posted by jamestkirk
Was it true the Flybe v.2 crew signed an NDA to not talk about theyíre wages etc.
Christ on a bike, sincerely hope thatís not true. Must have been some desperate crew signed up if it is! I would have run a mile from any outfit with that caper.
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Old 31st Jan 2023, 19:38
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Originally Posted by Rutan16
I think you are wrong on some of those points specifically award without notice

To confirm a status in the first place requires a judgement via tribunal ( that s one of the advantages of union membership 👍&#127996

Award payment if authorised is £571 per week max or prorated and any already paid monies and holiday entitlement is deducted

And all subject to the contractual notice period and through I canít find it there must be a minimum qualifying period before eligibility

No one can expect 3 months salary in this case even the max payment is capped at eight weeks

With current abysmal contracts of employment there is every likelihood of just 1 weeks notice and any prorated holiday entitlement being whatís owed less the 5 days already paid to end January

You're right that the amount is capped, I didn't specifically mention it, but that's a given because I mentioned the bill is being footed by the taxpayer and authorised by the secretary of state. If you've been through Flybe1, Monarch, BMI Regional, et al.. you know the drill.

Flight crew will be owed 3 months notice period after line training, 1 month otherwise. so 12 capped weeks. Again, most flight crew were recruited from Flybe1... so will understand what the deal is.

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Old 1st Feb 2023, 07:53
  #992 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jamestkirk
Was it true the Flybe v.2 crew signed an NDA to not talk about theyíre wages etc.
That rumour appeared here last year before v2 launched, but no, crew didn't sign any NDA. Some were asked not to post on social media that they were reemployed, but that was mainly due to negotiations ongoing with various airports that would be undermined if said airport knew local crew had already been hired.
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Old 1st Feb 2023, 10:28
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I don't think the UK state redundancy rules have changed much since I was redundant in 2005.
You had to have a minimum of two years service to get anything, then 1 week for every year upto age 40 and 1.5 weeks pay over 40, capped at £270 ish p/w. (now £571 apparently).
I got £6580 after 18 years of service, and that was from an airline that was growing rapidly but didn't need flight engineers any more.
The Flybe staff will be lucky if they get their notice period paid in full.
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Old 1st Feb 2023, 17:49
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Originally Posted by dixi188
I don't think the UK state redundancy rules have changed much since I was redundant in 2005.
You had to have a minimum of two years service to get anything, then 1 week for every year upto age 40 and 1.5 weeks pay over 40, capped at £270 ish p/w. (now £571 apparently).
That's statutory redundancy pay you're referring to. Which nobody will receive.

But.... If you don't give anyone notice that they're being made redundant, and just put them out on the street it's a breach of contract. Due to the lack of consultation employees are entitled to a Protective Award as per their notice period. But this takes 12-18mo to receive and it subject to deductions if said employee receives state aid, JSA etc.

There's no company to take to court for the full notice period... so the Secretary of State foots the bill.

Originally Posted by dixi188
The Flybe staff will be lucky if they get their notice period paid in full.
Not in full as it's capped as others have mentioned, but they will get something.



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Old 1st Feb 2023, 20:42
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IAG isn''t an airline. There's no overlap between BA's LHR hub operation and Aer Lingus Regional routes to the UK. easyJet compete out of BFS with EI at BHD, that's not insubstatial. I don't see there being room for another turboprop operator.
BA have EZY competing on Scotland to London, I don't see how anyone actually taking on BA into LHR can win. It's just not viable, Virgin and latterly flybe just lost money as runners up. That doesn't mean London is a BA monopoly, just that out of LHR, it's obviously a strong (and likely unbeatable) offering IMHO.

Same goes for BA CityFlyer out of LCY, FR at STN and EZY out of LGW.
​​​​​​​Agreed. Where would you even begin these days as a start up? You're not going to be able to offer the same perks which attracts the BA gold card holders and you're not going to be large enough either to truly compete with the low cost airlines on economies of scale and efficiencies. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

A tightly run ship probably could make small margins in other areas of the country with regional flying but the returns are minimal. Look at Loganair - a 3% profit margin and , actually, their scheduled flying ops lost them money.

It's tough out there.

Exactly, pointless for a small regional airline to go up against established carriers on trunk routes. In these circumstances increasing connectivity is more important than competition. Given the aircraft in use, thin unserved routes would have been best, then make sure that potential pax are made aware of the routes. If you don't know about it, you can't use it.


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Old 1st Feb 2023, 20:53
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It's easy to say what routes Flybe should not have flown. However, what routes should Flybe have flown that they didn't fly (assuming it was to be a real airline aiming to survive long-term and not just a way of flogging LHR slots as quickly as possible) ? With many of the better candidates already snapped up after Flybe v1 went bust in spring 2020, there wasn't an awful lot of choice. Their timing of starting in spring 2022 was pretty good vis-a-vis the UK returning to normal post-Covid. Apart from the LHR routes, I find myself thinking that a fair number of the routes they chose (e.g. Belfast and Birmingham bases) were some of the least bad of an uninspiring bunch
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Old 1st Feb 2023, 21:37
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
It's easy to say what routes Flybe should not have flown. However, what routes should Flybe have flown that they didn't fly (assuming it was to be a real airline aiming to survive long-term and not just a way of flogging LHR slots as quickly as possible)
Somewhere between the two questions, they should have launched NQY-LHR from the outset rather than messing about doing LBA. At least then they would have had a realistic chance of it being somewhere near sustainable. And if they were determined to fly fresh air around, MME could have been better than NCL as they may have got some money off the Mayor.
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Old 2nd Feb 2023, 05:30
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
It's easy to say what routes Flybe should not have flown. However, what routes should Flybe have flown that they didn't fly (assuming it was to be a real airline aiming to survive long-term and not just a way of flogging LHR slots as quickly as possible) ? With many of the better candidates already snapped up after Flybe v1 went bust in spring 2020, there wasn't an awful lot of choice. Their timing of starting in spring 2022 was pretty good vis-a-vis the UK returning to normal post-Covid. Apart from the LHR routes, I find myself thinking that a fair number of the routes they chose (e.g. Belfast and Birmingham bases) were some of the least bad of an uninspiring bunch
The problem with the Belfast routes is they went up against Emerald/Aer Lingus Regional.

Iíd have picked Birmingham or Manchester and built it out to a decent hub rather than their spiders web of routes.

However ultimately I donít believe there was space for Flybe in the first place. At least not domestically. Then Iíd have gone for thin regional routes services to France/Scandinavia/Benelux and aim for some codeshare deals. Could have been like Air Dolomiti for Lufthansa style.
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Old 2nd Feb 2023, 05:53
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Flybe v 2 was always a solution looking for a problem or an answer looking for a question. By and large successful businesses are ones that identify a need and then aim to satisfy it, not ones that start up and then try to decide what to do. There was no need for Flybe 2 as a U.K. regional airline. It was simply a slot scam (see my various posts passim) and it appears, IMHO, that the management was too inept to even carry that off.

Last edited by willy wombat; 2nd Feb 2023 at 05:54. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 2nd Feb 2023, 09:16
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Could not agree with you more
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