British Airways-2
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA now actively recruiting management positions for the new Gatwick short haul subsidiary. Aim
is to start operations in Summer 2022.
By Summer 2022 I mean start of airline Summer timetables so probably late March 2022
is to start operations in Summer 2022.
By Summer 2022 I mean start of airline Summer timetables so probably late March 2022
Over 18 months since global lockdown began... was BA right in hindsight to have terminated the 747 ? I know former 747 pilots and cabin crew will have a strong opinion, but hoping for an answer of what was in IAG shareholders' interests rather than the point of view of (former) employees or spotters.
In responding, (and I know this is obvious to all but the most ardent of believers, so please don't take offence), remember there is a cost to putting a fleet into storage, and a cost to bringing it out of storage, along with the associated payroll and training costs, and that a type with just 1 air frame is pointless - so for 18+ months of storage to have been worthwhile, there needs to be a *substantial* need from Jan-2022 onwards that can't be met by the existing (or new deliveries) fleet
In responding, (and I know this is obvious to all but the most ardent of believers, so please don't take offence), remember there is a cost to putting a fleet into storage, and a cost to bringing it out of storage, along with the associated payroll and training costs, and that a type with just 1 air frame is pointless - so for 18+ months of storage to have been worthwhile, there needs to be a *substantial* need from Jan-2022 onwards that can't be met by the existing (or new deliveries) fleet
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 1st Nov 2021 at 21:28.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: London
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before COVID-19, BA's original plan was to have 12 747s left by the end of 2022 with the last aircraft retired in February 2024. As well as the cost of bringing aircraft back into service, it's worth remembering what kept the 747s going in part at BA were the 86J versions that BA could fill on relatively short routes to JFK etc.
With business travel unlikely tor return in meaningful form until next year, it was probably the right to decision to retire the aircraft early.
With business travel unlikely tor return in meaningful form until next year, it was probably the right to decision to retire the aircraft early.
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Given that they were owned assets that cost very little to dispose of and were on the way out anyway, the answer is probably yes. Especially given how long it's taken for a meaningful restart.
On the contrary to the above, routes like JFK are easily replaced by the 777, especially the high-J 77W. The 747 found itself in this configuration and on these routes because it was more efficient to use older aircraft on shorter routes, which is why they haven't been regularly seen East of Delhi for a good 7-8 years now. The routes that'll 'miss' the 747 are the high density leisure orientated routes that also have a sizable premium demand and aren't reliant on high frequencies - such as Cape Town, Las Vegas and Miami - although the densification of the 772 fleet has closed the gap somewhat.
On the contrary to the above, routes like JFK are easily replaced by the 777, especially the high-J 77W. The 747 found itself in this configuration and on these routes because it was more efficient to use older aircraft on shorter routes, which is why they haven't been regularly seen East of Delhi for a good 7-8 years now. The routes that'll 'miss' the 747 are the high density leisure orientated routes that also have a sizable premium demand and aren't reliant on high frequencies - such as Cape Town, Las Vegas and Miami - although the densification of the 772 fleet has closed the gap somewhat.
dave..
Being amongst other things ex BA747 I know a lot of people got very attached to the Queen of the Skies and there were some very strong opinions expressed on the 744 sell off last year - probably understandable but the sentiment in some quarters was such that some employees had a theory that was verging into tinfoil hat territory regarding the motives for the scrapping…..
That said I find it very hard to disagree with either nguba and Vokes on this. From an economic /inventory POV once the potential scale of the stoppage became known it’s hard to see any justification for doing anything other than sell the airframes off.
Being amongst other things ex BA747 I know a lot of people got very attached to the Queen of the Skies and there were some very strong opinions expressed on the 744 sell off last year - probably understandable but the sentiment in some quarters was such that some employees had a theory that was verging into tinfoil hat territory regarding the motives for the scrapping…..
That said I find it very hard to disagree with either nguba and Vokes on this. From an economic /inventory POV once the potential scale of the stoppage became known it’s hard to see any justification for doing anything other than sell the airframes off.
Paxing All Over The World
The company have changed our seat reservations for trip to KEF. I had specifically chosen seats - and paid for them in advance. When I went to look where the new seats were, I saw that all the seat reservation charges wer now much less than I paid. Can i get a refund of the balance?
BA tell me the reason for the change is 'Operational Reasons'. Obviously I do not doubt them, especially as it is exactly the same a/c type operating the sectors ...
BA tell me the reason for the change is 'Operational Reasons'. Obviously I do not doubt them, especially as it is exactly the same a/c type operating the sectors ...
So what sort of routes are BAW going to operate out of LGW. Very much the same as before (minus the LH hops obviously)? Or probably a rehash of MON just with deeper pockets?
Routes like: GLA, EDI, JER, DUB, BHD, CDG, ABZ, NCE, VIE, ZAG, LCA, PFO, CPH, SSH, GNB, LYS, MPL, TLS, BER, DUS, FRA, HAM, MUC, GIB, ATH, CFU, KGS, JMK, ZTH, TLV, MXP, FCO, NAP, PSA, VCE, AMS, OSL, ARN, FAO, LIS, FNC, ALC, BCN, MAD, IBZ, TFS, ACE, FUE, AGP, MAH, LPA, PMI, ZRH, GVA, BSL, AYT, DLM, BJV
I guess that's a long list for only 17 aircraft - presumably they will consolidate the business routes there into LHR and it'll be left with B&S routes...
Routes like: GLA, EDI, JER, DUB, BHD, CDG, ABZ, NCE, VIE, ZAG, LCA, PFO, CPH, SSH, GNB, LYS, MPL, TLS, BER, DUS, FRA, HAM, MUC, GIB, ATH, CFU, KGS, JMK, ZTH, TLV, MXP, FCO, NAP, PSA, VCE, AMS, OSL, ARN, FAO, LIS, FNC, ALC, BCN, MAD, IBZ, TFS, ACE, FUE, AGP, MAH, LPA, PMI, ZRH, GVA, BSL, AYT, DLM, BJV
I guess that's a long list for only 17 aircraft - presumably they will consolidate the business routes there into LHR and it'll be left with B&S routes...
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: BMA
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would imagine holiday flights. Very much the same flights operating pre-COVID.
From the list above I can’t see CPH, DUS, FRA, MUC, HAM, TLV, OSL, ARN or ZRH ever operating from LGW with BA.
From the list above I can’t see CPH, DUS, FRA, MUC, HAM, TLV, OSL, ARN or ZRH ever operating from LGW with BA.
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: UK
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My thoughts,
EDI, JER nope unless BA see merit in a W rotation, DUB nope EI operate it, BHD, nope that would be an LHR/LCY route, CdG nope, VY operate it, ABZ nope, it worked at LGW when the oil/gas longhauls were at LGW like DFW and IAH but not now. CPH, ARN, OSL nope as they are LHR routes and head to head with Norwegian. ZRH is an LHR route, same for HAM, MUC, BSL, TLV, MXP, LIS, MAD. MAD is covered by IB Express, BCN covered by VY
i suspect a similar but smaller LGW operation to pre covid, leisure, mainly point to point and VFR focussed.
I think an important focus for the new subsidiary is flattening out the curve between summer peak and winter lull.
focussing Christmas markets, ski markets, Lapland and winter sun hopefully will be a focus. Anything and anywhere to stimulate demand in the traditionally leaner months of November, December (excluding Christmas) January and February.
I know BA last year did plan a few new routes from LHR that were heavily VFR focussed like Cluj etc, those heavy VFR routes could be useful to th3 LGW operation, especially post covid, other than that, to fill the leaner months,
the likes of SZG, INN, FDH, LYS, GNB, KTT, RVN, NUE, CGN?, LPA, TFS, ACE, FUE?, SSH, HRG etc and be creative, not every destination needs to be served for five months, like the Christmas markets, they were popular pre covid, target three or four of the biggest markets and serve the, say 10th Dec to 5th January
summer I’d expect traditional point to point leisure routes. With 17 a/c many ex LGW routes won’t operate or be from LHR. Any routes BA have found with good LHR longhaul feed figures will stay, I’d expect DBV to remain at LHR, as a hunch.
EDI, JER nope unless BA see merit in a W rotation, DUB nope EI operate it, BHD, nope that would be an LHR/LCY route, CdG nope, VY operate it, ABZ nope, it worked at LGW when the oil/gas longhauls were at LGW like DFW and IAH but not now. CPH, ARN, OSL nope as they are LHR routes and head to head with Norwegian. ZRH is an LHR route, same for HAM, MUC, BSL, TLV, MXP, LIS, MAD. MAD is covered by IB Express, BCN covered by VY
i suspect a similar but smaller LGW operation to pre covid, leisure, mainly point to point and VFR focussed.
I think an important focus for the new subsidiary is flattening out the curve between summer peak and winter lull.
focussing Christmas markets, ski markets, Lapland and winter sun hopefully will be a focus. Anything and anywhere to stimulate demand in the traditionally leaner months of November, December (excluding Christmas) January and February.
I know BA last year did plan a few new routes from LHR that were heavily VFR focussed like Cluj etc, those heavy VFR routes could be useful to th3 LGW operation, especially post covid, other than that, to fill the leaner months,
the likes of SZG, INN, FDH, LYS, GNB, KTT, RVN, NUE, CGN?, LPA, TFS, ACE, FUE?, SSH, HRG etc and be creative, not every destination needs to be served for five months, like the Christmas markets, they were popular pre covid, target three or four of the biggest markets and serve the, say 10th Dec to 5th January
summer I’d expect traditional point to point leisure routes. With 17 a/c many ex LGW routes won’t operate or be from LHR. Any routes BA have found with good LHR longhaul feed figures will stay, I’d expect DBV to remain at LHR, as a hunch.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Long haul continues to operate from London Gatwick. About 8 777s being required for the Winter 20212/2022 season and increasing to 11 or 12 for Summer 2022. The difference being that long haul remains with
Mainline operation. I suspect the cabin crew for these Gatwick long haul flights are the remaining 300 or so Gatwick crew who were not made redundant in 2020. Flight crew for the 777s are Heathrow based.
I know that BA are in contact with the former Gatwick Cabin Crew talent pool and asking them them to let them know if they wish to be considered for the new subsidiary before the end of November.
I believe the plan is currently for an initial 17 SH aircraft for Summer 2022 to increase by several units per year for several years. If demand warrants the number of units will be increased sooner.
Mainline operation. I suspect the cabin crew for these Gatwick long haul flights are the remaining 300 or so Gatwick crew who were not made redundant in 2020. Flight crew for the 777s are Heathrow based.
I know that BA are in contact with the former Gatwick Cabin Crew talent pool and asking them them to let them know if they wish to be considered for the new subsidiary before the end of November.
I believe the plan is currently for an initial 17 SH aircraft for Summer 2022 to increase by several units per year for several years. If demand warrants the number of units will be increased sooner.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As for short haul routes to some extent it depends on how independent and innovative the new short haul subsidiary is allowed to be. There may be even be scope for limited feeders for the long haul operation.
Although I agree domestics may not be the initial focus, pre-Covid BA was carrying about a few hundred thousand a year between London Gatwick and Edinburgh. There is probably a fairly decent point to point market
for some domestic services. Likewise Jersey may warrant a seasonal service from Gatwick. Amsterdam and Rome were served from Gatwick, but catering more for point to point leisure travellers. The cheaper cost of Gatwick
allowed BA holidays to offer some good value city breaks. To some extent it may depend on how demand for certain destinations recovers at Heathrow and pressure on BA slots at that airport. Increasing charges at Heathrow and
the third runway seeming further away than ever ,will also have a bearing on BAs plans for Gatwick both long-haul and short-haul.
Although I agree domestics may not be the initial focus, pre-Covid BA was carrying about a few hundred thousand a year between London Gatwick and Edinburgh. There is probably a fairly decent point to point market
for some domestic services. Likewise Jersey may warrant a seasonal service from Gatwick. Amsterdam and Rome were served from Gatwick, but catering more for point to point leisure travellers. The cheaper cost of Gatwick
allowed BA holidays to offer some good value city breaks. To some extent it may depend on how demand for certain destinations recovers at Heathrow and pressure on BA slots at that airport. Increasing charges at Heathrow and
the third runway seeming further away than ever ,will also have a bearing on BAs plans for Gatwick both long-haul and short-haul.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: BMA
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don’t believe so at this moment. If no waiver, it reverts to the use it or loose it rule which means they need to use the slots 80% of the time. So if they plan for some routes from S22 then they will likely just have different times through the week etc and ad hoc cancellations etc so all slots remain used 80%. They can also lease some out or sell (but I guess that market is kind of depressed).
There is no confirmation (either way) of a slot waiver for S22 as yet. A consultation from DFT is expected any day now, and it is already obvious that any slot waiver for S22 will be far more hotly contested than for the previous three seasons. It's far from clear as to whether any alleviation will be granted or this is just seen to be delaying a correction / shake-out that is perceived to be overdue anyway, depending on to whom you listen. Anyone banking on a slot waiver for S22 without a Plan B is playing a decidedly high-risk game.
Paxing All Over The World
I see the company is now actively recruiting across many fields. I doubt they will be oferring the same salaries as those they laid off ...