TUI airways-2
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If TUI are telling the customer at the time of booking and the package includes the extras the customer wants (bags, seat selection etc) then I really don't see the issue. If TUI customers at large really don't want that product then they won't book the Ryanair operated flights and the partnership won't work out. Or it may offer more flexibility and options and may work well for all parties. Understand the concerns those working for the in-house airline may have though.
Last edited by aerotech07; 15th Feb 2024 at 20:39.
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You'd be told what options are available airline wise at time of booking. It wouldn't be just book a TUI holiday package and find out its flying Ryanair. You'd be told/ shown before you agree to the package
I see the following problems:
- Will TUI keep their in-house airlines at the same size long term, or will they gradually shrink them down as aircraft become old ?
- Will TUI find that the CASK that Ryanair charge TUI is lower than what it costs TUI to operate a flight themselves ? If so, will TUI management be tempted to increasingly outsource flights on core routes (e.g. London - Mallorca) to Ryanair ?
- Will TUI still have the same ambition for their in-house airlines ? Will new routes still be launched ? When times get tough, cutting costs is tempting, and it's not always easy to see if you're cutting a bit of fat or cutting into muscle
- How much data will Ryanair have about their customers ? Can Ryanair send marketing to these customers later ? Can Ryanair combine this data with data from non-TUI-originating bookings ? How can Ryanair use this data ?
- Will Ryanair be tempted to re-establish their own in-house travel agency in 5 or 10 years time ?
- What happens when flights go wrong ? Who gets bumped first - ordinary Ryanair passengers, those booking via TUI, or does this does not have an influence ? Will Ryanair still find a way to get people to a destination if they have to cancel a flight in July ?
- If something goes wrong with a TUI flight, TUI will often make a decent effort at putting it right. Ryanair doesn't have the same reputation. Will TUI still have the same brand value in the eyes of these customers ?
- How will customers perceive this ? If TUI are providing just the hotel, will customers be more tempted to book the hotel themselves and then visit ryanair.com ? Will this be cheaper ? Google is very happy to provide you the hotel website and phone number or booking.com./ hotels.com will happily take your hotel booking
- How will hoteliers preceive this ? Will hoteliers still give TUI the same bulk discount if they see TUI as just a competitor of booking.com rather than a company that has complete control of the tour operation ?
- TUI cabin crew generally do a good job at customer service. Ryanair cabin crew are more focussed on in-flight sales. If you're booking a luxury holiday, how does a cr*ppy flight experience square with the money you've paid ?
- TUI go to great lengths in their in-flight magazine to sell another holiday to people on their aircraft. Pictures of blue skies, infinity pools, etc... How much is this marketing opportunity worth to TUI ?
- TUI are focused on ensuring flights from many airports arrive at a resort at roughly the same time. The rep can welcome people to (e.g.) Lanzarote from Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow at the same time and put them onto the right coach to their resort. With Ryanair flying at their own times, the people who book TUI packages and most want a brief hand-holding while a bit nervous in a new location potentially lose this. Can TUI provide this same brand embrace for flights throughout the day ? If not, does it matter ?
- If TUI's brand is all about the in-resort experience and a helpful TUI rep... then do we end up with what's known as moral hazard around who self-packages versus those using TUI ? In effect, those who can cope without a rep are more tempted to self-package, while those with greater dependency use TUI ? The result would be a rep being increasingly busy and either costs go up, or the rep has less time to help each customer while in resort
- What really is the product that TUI are selling ?
I know it's not the same as financial debt... but I'm seeing a TUI CEO under pressure from investors to generate short-term profits. In reality, I think TUI is getting Thomas Cook and Manny Fontenla-Novoa
- Will TUI keep their in-house airlines at the same size long term, or will they gradually shrink them down as aircraft become old ?
- Will TUI find that the CASK that Ryanair charge TUI is lower than what it costs TUI to operate a flight themselves ? If so, will TUI management be tempted to increasingly outsource flights on core routes (e.g. London - Mallorca) to Ryanair ?
- Will TUI still have the same ambition for their in-house airlines ? Will new routes still be launched ? When times get tough, cutting costs is tempting, and it's not always easy to see if you're cutting a bit of fat or cutting into muscle
- How much data will Ryanair have about their customers ? Can Ryanair send marketing to these customers later ? Can Ryanair combine this data with data from non-TUI-originating bookings ? How can Ryanair use this data ?
- Will Ryanair be tempted to re-establish their own in-house travel agency in 5 or 10 years time ?
- What happens when flights go wrong ? Who gets bumped first - ordinary Ryanair passengers, those booking via TUI, or does this does not have an influence ? Will Ryanair still find a way to get people to a destination if they have to cancel a flight in July ?
- If something goes wrong with a TUI flight, TUI will often make a decent effort at putting it right. Ryanair doesn't have the same reputation. Will TUI still have the same brand value in the eyes of these customers ?
- How will customers perceive this ? If TUI are providing just the hotel, will customers be more tempted to book the hotel themselves and then visit ryanair.com ? Will this be cheaper ? Google is very happy to provide you the hotel website and phone number or booking.com./ hotels.com will happily take your hotel booking
- How will hoteliers preceive this ? Will hoteliers still give TUI the same bulk discount if they see TUI as just a competitor of booking.com rather than a company that has complete control of the tour operation ?
- TUI cabin crew generally do a good job at customer service. Ryanair cabin crew are more focussed on in-flight sales. If you're booking a luxury holiday, how does a cr*ppy flight experience square with the money you've paid ?
- TUI go to great lengths in their in-flight magazine to sell another holiday to people on their aircraft. Pictures of blue skies, infinity pools, etc... How much is this marketing opportunity worth to TUI ?
- TUI are focused on ensuring flights from many airports arrive at a resort at roughly the same time. The rep can welcome people to (e.g.) Lanzarote from Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow at the same time and put them onto the right coach to their resort. With Ryanair flying at their own times, the people who book TUI packages and most want a brief hand-holding while a bit nervous in a new location potentially lose this. Can TUI provide this same brand embrace for flights throughout the day ? If not, does it matter ?
- If TUI's brand is all about the in-resort experience and a helpful TUI rep... then do we end up with what's known as moral hazard around who self-packages versus those using TUI ? In effect, those who can cope without a rep are more tempted to self-package, while those with greater dependency use TUI ? The result would be a rep being increasingly busy and either costs go up, or the rep has less time to help each customer while in resort
- What really is the product that TUI are selling ?
I know it's not the same as financial debt... but I'm seeing a TUI CEO under pressure from investors to generate short-term profits. In reality, I think TUI is getting Thomas Cook and Manny Fontenla-Novoa
DJ6,
As usual, you make some excellent points.
Imagine this:
As usual, you make some excellent points.
Imagine this:
- TUI are struggling operationally with their airline.
- They own hotels which they want to fill.
- Hotels are costly, as are aircraft, but aircraft need replacing and hotels don't.
- TUI can get reliable flights at lower cost than their own fleet offers.
- Why not ditch the airline (over time) and become a hotelier?
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It hasn't been mentioned that TUI have regularly used EZY to fly their clients on some routes (certainly from EDI ). With EZY rapidly growing their own holiday business they might have thought there was a conflict of interest. I wonder who approached who to initiate negotiations for this deal.
DJ6,
As usual, you make some excellent points.
Imagine this:
As usual, you make some excellent points.
Imagine this:
- TUI are struggling operationally with their airline.
- They own hotels which they want to fill.
- Hotels are costly, as are aircraft, but aircraft need replacing and hotels don't.
- TUI can get reliable flights at lower cost than their own fleet offers.
- Why not ditch the airline (over time) and become a hotelier?
And as inOban says, how is this different to the arrangement with EZY?
I see the following problems:
Will TUI keep their in-house airlines at the same size long term, or will they gradually shrink them down as aircraft become old ?
Will TUI find that the CASK that Ryanair charge TUI is lower than what it costs TUI to operate a flight themselves ?
If so, will TUI management be tempted to increasingly outsource flights on core routes (e.g., London - Mallorca) to Ryanair ?
Will TUI still have the same ambition for their in-house airlines ?
Will new routes still be launched ?
When times get tough, cutting costs is tempting, and it's not always easy to see if you're cutting a bit of fat or cutting into muscle. How much data will Ryanair have about their customers ?
Can Ryanair send marketing to these customers later ?
Can Ryanair combine this data with data from non-TUI-originating bookings ?
How can Ryanair use this data ?
Will Ryanair be tempted to re-establish their own in-house travel agency in 5 or 10 years' time ?
What happens when flights go wrong ?
Who gets bumped first - ordinary Ryanair passengers, those booking via TUI, or does this does not have an influence ?
Will Ryanair still find a way to get people to a destination if they have to cancel a flight in July ?
If something goes wrong with a TUI flight, TUI will often make a decent effort at putting it right. Ryanair doesn't have the same reputation. Will TUI still have the same brand value in the eyes of these customers ?
How will customers perceive this ?
If TUI are providing just the hotel, will customers be more tempted to book the hotel themselves and then visit ryanair.com ?
Will this be cheaper ?
Google is very happy to provide you with the hotel website and phone number or booking.com. hotels.com will happily take your hotel booking.
How will hoteliers receive this ?
Will hoteliers still give TUI the same bulk discount if they see TUI as just a competitor of booking.com rather than a company that has complete control of the tour operation ?
TUI cabin crew generally does a good job at customer service. Ryanair cabin crew are more focused on in-flight sales. If you're booking a luxury holiday, how does a cr*ppy flight experience square with the money you've paid ?
TUI go to great lengths in their in-flight magazine to sell another holiday to people on their aircraft. Pictures of blue skies, infinity pools, etc... How much is this marketing opportunity worth to TUI ?
TUI is focused on ensuring flights from many airports arrive at a resort at roughly the same time. The rep can welcome people to (e.g.) Lanzarote from Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester, and Glasgow at the same time and put them onto the right coach to their resort With Ryanair flying at their own times, the people who book TUI packages and most want a brief hand-holding while a bit nervous in a new location potentially lose this.
Can TUI provide this same brand embrace for flights throughout the day ?
If not, does it matter ?
If TUI's brand is all about the in-resort experience and a helpful TUI rep... then do we end up with what's known as moral hazards around who self-packages versus those using TUI ?
In effect, those who can cope without a rep are more tempted to self-package, while those with greater dependency use TUI ?
The result would be a rep being increasingly busy and either costs go up, or the rep has less time to help each customer while in resort.
What really is the product that TUI is selling ?
I know it's not the same as financial debt... but I'm seeing a TUI CEO under pressure from investors to generate short-term profits. In reality, I think TUI is getting Thomas Cook and Manny Fontenla-Novoa
Will TUI keep their in-house airlines at the same size long term, or will they gradually shrink them down as aircraft become old ?
Will TUI find that the CASK that Ryanair charge TUI is lower than what it costs TUI to operate a flight themselves ?
If so, will TUI management be tempted to increasingly outsource flights on core routes (e.g., London - Mallorca) to Ryanair ?
Will TUI still have the same ambition for their in-house airlines ?
Will new routes still be launched ?
When times get tough, cutting costs is tempting, and it's not always easy to see if you're cutting a bit of fat or cutting into muscle. How much data will Ryanair have about their customers ?
Can Ryanair send marketing to these customers later ?
Can Ryanair combine this data with data from non-TUI-originating bookings ?
How can Ryanair use this data ?
Will Ryanair be tempted to re-establish their own in-house travel agency in 5 or 10 years' time ?
What happens when flights go wrong ?
Who gets bumped first - ordinary Ryanair passengers, those booking via TUI, or does this does not have an influence ?
Will Ryanair still find a way to get people to a destination if they have to cancel a flight in July ?
If something goes wrong with a TUI flight, TUI will often make a decent effort at putting it right. Ryanair doesn't have the same reputation. Will TUI still have the same brand value in the eyes of these customers ?
How will customers perceive this ?
If TUI are providing just the hotel, will customers be more tempted to book the hotel themselves and then visit ryanair.com ?
Will this be cheaper ?
Google is very happy to provide you with the hotel website and phone number or booking.com. hotels.com will happily take your hotel booking.
How will hoteliers receive this ?
Will hoteliers still give TUI the same bulk discount if they see TUI as just a competitor of booking.com rather than a company that has complete control of the tour operation ?
TUI cabin crew generally does a good job at customer service. Ryanair cabin crew are more focused on in-flight sales. If you're booking a luxury holiday, how does a cr*ppy flight experience square with the money you've paid ?
TUI go to great lengths in their in-flight magazine to sell another holiday to people on their aircraft. Pictures of blue skies, infinity pools, etc... How much is this marketing opportunity worth to TUI ?
TUI is focused on ensuring flights from many airports arrive at a resort at roughly the same time. The rep can welcome people to (e.g.) Lanzarote from Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester, and Glasgow at the same time and put them onto the right coach to their resort With Ryanair flying at their own times, the people who book TUI packages and most want a brief hand-holding while a bit nervous in a new location potentially lose this.
Can TUI provide this same brand embrace for flights throughout the day ?
If not, does it matter ?
If TUI's brand is all about the in-resort experience and a helpful TUI rep... then do we end up with what's known as moral hazards around who self-packages versus those using TUI ?
In effect, those who can cope without a rep are more tempted to self-package, while those with greater dependency use TUI ?
The result would be a rep being increasingly busy and either costs go up, or the rep has less time to help each customer while in resort.
What really is the product that TUI is selling ?
I know it's not the same as financial debt... but I'm seeing a TUI CEO under pressure from investors to generate short-term profits. In reality, I think TUI is getting Thomas Cook and Manny Fontenla-Novoa
Sotonsean - really not sure what you meant in your last post... but I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Everyone else, particularly TUI employees - apologies if my opinions cause upset, but I want to be open and candid in what I think. By training, I'm an economist... and I'm looking at this announcement as an economist, trying to see through the public relations fluff. I havd flown with a few of the TUI airlines in the past and generally had a good experience. I was sad to see Thomas Cook collapse and do not want the same for TUI.
Everyone else, particularly TUI employees - apologies if my opinions cause upset, but I want to be open and candid in what I think. By training, I'm an economist... and I'm looking at this announcement as an economist, trying to see through the public relations fluff. I havd flown with a few of the TUI airlines in the past and generally had a good experience. I was sad to see Thomas Cook collapse and do not want the same for TUI.
I forgot to mention the TUI share price which might be what's behind this.
In November 2019, it peaked at 35 euros
In late March 2020 (at peak of Covid panic) it was 11 euros
By May 2021, it had recovered to 22 euros
It's now 6.26 euros - i.e. about 72 % down from what it was in May 2021 when vaccines were widespread and people thought Covid was coming to an end
The TUI CEO is presumably under significant pressure from investors to do *something significant* to boost the share price.
In November 2019, it peaked at 35 euros
In late March 2020 (at peak of Covid panic) it was 11 euros
By May 2021, it had recovered to 22 euros
It's now 6.26 euros - i.e. about 72 % down from what it was in May 2021 when vaccines were widespread and people thought Covid was coming to an end
The TUI CEO is presumably under significant pressure from investors to do *something significant* to boost the share price.
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SotonSean, your patronising tone and arrogance amaze me at times! ;-)
For someone who doesn't understand the correct way to use an apostrophe (often placing one before the 's' of a plural noun) and has managed to use the wrong spelling of 'to' in your 'correction' of DJ6's post, I'm not sure you are best qualified to correct grammatical mistakes in posts from other contributors ;-)
I fully understood the points DJ6 was making. But thanks for your improvements lol
For someone who doesn't understand the correct way to use an apostrophe (often placing one before the 's' of a plural noun) and has managed to use the wrong spelling of 'to' in your 'correction' of DJ6's post, I'm not sure you are best qualified to correct grammatical mistakes in posts from other contributors ;-)
I fully understood the points DJ6 was making. But thanks for your improvements lol
SotonSean, your patronising tone and arrogance amaze me at times! ;-)
For someone who doesn't understand the correct way to use an apostrophe (often placing one before the 's' of a plural noun) and has managed to use the wrong spelling of 'to' in your 'correction' of DJ6's post, I'm not sure you are best qualified to correct grammatical mistakes in posts from other contributors ;-)
I fully understood the points DJ6 was making. But thanks for your improvements lol
For someone who doesn't understand the correct way to use an apostrophe (often placing one before the 's' of a plural noun) and has managed to use the wrong spelling of 'to' in your 'correction' of DJ6's post, I'm not sure you are best qualified to correct grammatical mistakes in posts from other contributors ;-)
I fully understood the points DJ6 was making. But thanks for your improvements lol
But I do appreciate the fact that I amaze you at times. Even though we have never ever communicated before and to be honest I've never seen you in the forum's before. But it's nice to know that I amaze you at times. It's nice to know that I put a smile on your face 😊
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Agree with much of the above, but consider the actual wording of announcements from TUI over the last 6 months with reference to the (ATOL) size of their UK tour operation which has slipped into number 2 position after Jet2. This is now an old fashioned Tour Operator war where one fights back with extra capacity - in this case sourced from a highly efficient LCC to augment what they can already produce with their in-house carrier. I see no threat to the future of their own airline, rather a (any) tour operator's dream to be able to bolt on extra capacity where and when demand exists but with VERY LITTLE COMMITMENT - surely a better bet than questionable ACMI arrangements which tend to come in lumps of 180Y. This is history repeating itself and anyone as old as me will be able to recall Thomson Holidays being able to pull this sort of innovation off repeatedly over a near 50 year span. Quite possibly a win win for both parties and one which might be causing some concern oop north (unless of course they get the same deal....!!!)
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I worry this could be the start of a shrinking of the TUI airline at the expense of short term profits. Some questions:
Would a TUI package with a FR flight be ATOL protected? Would transfers still be offered? Would luggage be included?
If all of the above is yes and it just creates more options for customers, you can easily see some TUI attrition to FR meaning they have more empty seats on their own planes, meaning they need less of them. Or is this an attempt to reduce the need for outsourcing?
I fear for the w operations to smaller airports - feels like these are the easiest to lose.
Wonder if FR would have an allocation per aircraft for TUI of if every sale is first come first served?
Would a TUI package with a FR flight be ATOL protected? Would transfers still be offered? Would luggage be included?
If all of the above is yes and it just creates more options for customers, you can easily see some TUI attrition to FR meaning they have more empty seats on their own planes, meaning they need less of them. Or is this an attempt to reduce the need for outsourcing?
I fear for the w operations to smaller airports - feels like these are the easiest to lose.
Wonder if FR would have an allocation per aircraft for TUI of if every sale is first come first served?
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I don’t think it will have any effect on Jet2, or concern them in the slightest. One of their biggest selling points for customers is their customer focus throughout the experience. A TUI holiday flying with Ryanair can’t compete with that!
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I mean they already offer packages with other airlines from my local airport.
For this winter I can book a package holiday/city break to Amsterdam through TUI, where it clearly states KLM will be my carrier. Even explains why stating offering more options but not to worry, you will still have transfers, bags and 24/7 helpline available to you.
For the Summer I can book a package Holiday through TUI to Jersey, again clearly states it will be with Blue Islands. Explains why but still get the same support as you would with TUI themselves.
So the fact they are already doing it, then I don't see the problem. Ryanair will undoubtedly get more bookings, TUI will get more people in their hotels. Increasing revenue for the company that clearly has fallen behind other competitors. They can then fully concentrate on what works best for the core operation of the airline itself, whilst generating extra revenue.
I think people automatically here Ryanair and think oh god. When truth be told the 5 or 6 times I have used them I never had an issue, flights on time and does what it says on the tin.
For this winter I can book a package holiday/city break to Amsterdam through TUI, where it clearly states KLM will be my carrier. Even explains why stating offering more options but not to worry, you will still have transfers, bags and 24/7 helpline available to you.
For the Summer I can book a package Holiday through TUI to Jersey, again clearly states it will be with Blue Islands. Explains why but still get the same support as you would with TUI themselves.
So the fact they are already doing it, then I don't see the problem. Ryanair will undoubtedly get more bookings, TUI will get more people in their hotels. Increasing revenue for the company that clearly has fallen behind other competitors. They can then fully concentrate on what works best for the core operation of the airline itself, whilst generating extra revenue.
I think people automatically here Ryanair and think oh god. When truth be told the 5 or 6 times I have used them I never had an issue, flights on time and does what it says on the tin.
Yes but what product exactly? TUI short/med haul is no different to RYR on board now (unless you’re lucky enough to get a Dreamliner in the summer months). As long as the full Tui package, I.e luggage is included I couldn’t care less if I’m flying 2/3 hours to a Mediterranean destination, although saying that with the reliability and on time performance of TUI post covid, Ryanair with a comparable on board experience is probably a better option!
I'm not sure why this RYR deal is seen as a game changer, why is it different from the other arrangements? Is it any more than TUI using RYR filling to fill in gaps and smooth the curves in their core business?
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I didn't touch the apostrophes, nouns, plurals, spelling. All I did was to change the format so it was easier to read.
But I do appreciate the fact that I amaze you at times. Even though we have never ever communicated before and to be honest I've never seen you in the forum's before. But it's nice to know that I amaze you at times. It's nice to know that I put a smile on your face 😊
But I do appreciate the fact that I amaze you at times. Even though we have never ever communicated before and to be honest I've never seen you in the forum's before. But it's nice to know that I amaze you at times. It's nice to know that I put a smile on your face 😊
I wasn't referring to the specifics of your short reply to DJ6. It was a general comment in relation to some of your (many) previous posts. I'm not a prolific poster myself, but have contributed to the Gatwick, Heathrow and other threads on a number of occasions Some of my posts have covered questions that you have raised (e.g. does anyone know why TAAG Angola didn't start flights to Gatwick in December?)
TUI Airline Partners | TUI.co.uk
TUI already use Smartlynx, Aegean, Aer Lingus, Albastar, BA City Flyer, Freebird, Sun Express as "partner airlines" together with what they call "Non TUI airlines" so now they have chosen Europe's largest airline as a partner. I don't see a problem with this.
TUI already use Smartlynx, Aegean, Aer Lingus, Albastar, BA City Flyer, Freebird, Sun Express as "partner airlines" together with what they call "Non TUI airlines" so now they have chosen Europe's largest airline as a partner. I don't see a problem with this.
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It's a masterstroke, but marketing could have handled it better.
If the headline had been "TUI partners with Europes Largest Airline to Open All of Europes Destinations to its Customers with Flexibility and Convenience From Yor Regional Airports"... But no instead we get the populous negativity towards Ryanair and the fear TUI is selling out its own product.
Ryanair have revolutionised travel within Europe, people have access to destinations that were only on a map 15 years ago. If TUI is to expand its offerings without commitment of Aircraft this definitely is the way to go. Quality of product... Hey, it's a bus ride to a destination with all of them now, short haul is not going to be the Emirates experience.
If the headline had been "TUI partners with Europes Largest Airline to Open All of Europes Destinations to its Customers with Flexibility and Convenience From Yor Regional Airports"... But no instead we get the populous negativity towards Ryanair and the fear TUI is selling out its own product.
Ryanair have revolutionised travel within Europe, people have access to destinations that were only on a map 15 years ago. If TUI is to expand its offerings without commitment of Aircraft this definitely is the way to go. Quality of product... Hey, it's a bus ride to a destination with all of them now, short haul is not going to be the Emirates experience.