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Southampton-3

Old 4th Oct 2022, 20:54
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Thanks TCAS, hadn't seen the Navigator Quarter link before. The obvious thing that stands out is all traffic being directed along the airport access road, canít see that ever being approved. With regards to funding, assume this would come from Solent Freeport/central gov and EBC with AGS offering the land?
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Old 4th Oct 2022, 21:16
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Originally Posted by stewyb
Thanks TCAS, hadn't seen the Navigator Quarter link before. The obvious thing that stands out is all traffic being directed along the airport access road, canít see that ever being approved. With regards to funding, assume this would come from Solent Freeport/central gov and EBC with AGS offering the land?
Stewy

EBC currently have enough financial problems to worry about before considering involvement in Navigator.

With the ďSAMĒ VORís life coming to an end looks as if income from the NE corner will only be a cut (please excuse pun) from the hay making revenue for the foreseeable future?



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Old 5th Oct 2022, 14:36
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You mention that the VOR DME life is coming to the end,this surely has an impact on approach aids especially with 20 which doesn't have RNav approach procedures,given that if the ILS is U/S what aid is available,and indeed 02 would have just Rnav approaches.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 17:06
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Originally Posted by RW20
TCAS FAN
You mention that the VOR DME life is coming to the end,this surely has an impact on approach aids especially with 20 which doesn't have RNav approach procedures,given that if the ILS is U/S what aid is available,and indeed 02 would have just Rnav approaches.
Stewy

The impact on RWY 20 IAP will be minimal for CAT C aircraft (E190/195, E145, A319/320, B737) when the plug is pulled on the VOR/DME.

Rather than bore you with the technical criteria for instrument approach procedure design, because of the offset location of the VOR/DME relative to the RWY 20 final approach track it is not possible to meet design criteria for an approach to the runway. Instead the current procedure is an approach to the airport, ie a cloud break procedure which (weather permitting) will permit visual manoeuvring onto the final approach track. Consequently the approach minima is relatively high (OCA 890 FT AMSL).

Until an RNAV approach is provided the only option for a CAT C aircraft, in order to get the lowest minima is an NDB/LOC IAP using the "EAS" NDB. This gives an OCA 510 FT AMSL, still more than double the current ILS minima (OCA 237 FT).

An RNAV approach will not (with current UK restrictions on use) match the ILS minima, however there could be an improvement on the current NDB/LOC minima.

An NDB/LOC IAP is available for RWY 02 if the RNAV IAP is not available,

Last edited by TCAS FAN; 5th Oct 2022 at 17:13. Reason: addition
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 18:11
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Loganair are increasing Edinburgh and Glasgow to 30 weekly next summer - 5x daily on weekdays. Extra early morning out, early evening back service to Edinburgh and mid evening out, late evening back service to Glasgow. 1 E145 will overnight at Southampton on weekdays for this.

Pre-empting any Flybe increases I imagine. It also should not be forgotten that the runway extension should help Loganair out in more extreme conditions, as there have been a few cases of them having to offload bags and people on some flights this summer.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 18:40
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Originally Posted by adfly
Loganair are increasing Edinburgh and Glasgow to 30 weekly next summer - 5x daily on weekdays. Extra early morning out, early evening back service to Edinburgh and mid evening out, late evening back service to Glasgow. 1 E145 will overnight at Southampton on weekdays for this.

Pre-empting any Flybe increases I imagine. It also should not be forgotten that the runway extension should help Loganair out in more extreme conditions, as there have been a few cases of them having to offload bags and people on some flights this summer.
Adfly
This is good news,however as been quoted before the runway extension has no start date,indeed the airport manager has said it will start in 2023, so the Summer operations will still be affected by summer heat!
There's been many comments about materials already ordered,completion by April for the extension for example,however the airport.manager has confirmed that he is still sourcing materials,Labour for example!
At best it looks like completion for Winter 2023/24.
With a loss of over 4 million this year the airport needs to expand to survive.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 18:49
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as always a great review of the airport.aids,it's clear that the airport.needs to.upgrade there aids
For example Southend a similar sized airport.has ILS on both ends of the runway,as Southampton needs to expand to.survive and any LCC will require the best aids for operation to avoid extra costs on diversions
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 20:01
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RW20

I agree that the airport cannot wait any longer to get the extension complete and in to action. A few posts above have suggested work commences this month, no idea if this is correct but the airport certainly cannot endure another summer season and beyond of £4m+ losses!
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 21:11
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Those Loganair increases look pretty positive. The airport must be pleased that it no longer has all of its eggs in one basket as it had with Flybe, particularly when the bottom falls out of said basket.

Everything I am hearing is runway extension not available until very late next year so all operators will be needing to make do with what they have for next summer. I just hope that the work doesn't result in a temporary reduction in the declared distances to coincide with the peak summer temperatures - that could make life really tricky. I gather even the ATR72 can be limited off to JER or GCI when everything goes against you with temperature, wind and QNH.
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 21:48
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For example Southend a similar sized airport.has ILS on both ends of the runway,as Southampton needs to expand to
There are others on here who I suspect will know much better, but I don't think an ILS is possible on 02 at SOU?
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 22:30
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gather even the ATR72 can be limited off to JER or GCI when everything goes against you with temperature, wind and QNH


It sure can down here in Jersey, shocking that bags are left behind in Southampton on such a short flight in the heights of summer
Very poor
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 22:35
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Runway Extension

Originally Posted by RW20
Adfly
This is good news,however as been quoted before the runway extension has no start date,indeed the airport manager has said it will start in 2023, so the Summer operations will still be affected by summer heat!
There's been many comments about materials already ordered,completion by April for the extension for example,however the airport.manager has confirmed that he is still sourcing materials,Labour for example!
At best it looks like completion for Winter 2023/24.
With a loss of over 4 million this year the airport needs to expand to survive.
I think runway work will start this month
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Old 5th Oct 2022, 22:46
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I suspect the reason that 02 can't have an ILS is due to all the metal in the railway yards at the northern boundary affecting a localiser signal.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 08:09
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Originally Posted by Wycombe
There are others on here who I suspect will know much better, but I don't think an ILS is possible on 02 at SOU?
An ILS on RWY 02 has always been of dubious value due to the impact of the hill at Townhill Park. This would have a significant impact on IAP minima.

With the RWY extension and a blast fence being installed (according to the Planning Application) immediately north of it, there will be nowhere to site an ILS Localiser, so ILS on RWY 02 is a non-starter.

As there is a worldwide shift away from the expense of ground based radio navigation aids the answer for both SOU runways are RNAV IAP, augmented by satellite data to provide vertical as well as lateral guidance. Until June 2021 the latter was available to the UK via the EU EGNOS system. This provided a much improved minima for the current RNAV IAP on RWY 02, unfortunately no longer available due to the UK being unable to agree terms for access to EGNOS.

There may well be a long term solution for the UK, either access to EGNOS or access to an alternative system, both apparently vastly expensive.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 08:16
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN
An ILS on RWY 02 has always been of dubious value due to the impact of the hill at Townhill Park. This would have a significant impact on IAP minima.

With the RWY extension and a blast fence being installed (according to the Planning Application) immediately north of it, there will be nowhere to site an ILS Localiser, so ILS on RWY 02 is a non-starter.

As there is a worldwide shift away from the expense of ground based radio navigation aids the answer for both SOU runways are RNAV IAP, augmented by satellite data to provide vertical as well as lateral guidance. Until June 2021 the latter was available to the UK via the EU EGNOS system. This provided a much improved minima for the current RNAV IAP on RWY 02, unfortunately no longer available due to the UK being unable to agree terms for access to EGNOS.

There may well be a long term solution for the UK, either access to EGNOS or access to an alternative system, both apparently vastly expensive.
Thanks, I had a feeling (and remember previous discussions) that it was to do with terrain in the undershoot. As you say, it seems the extension at the other end introduces further difficulties.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 11:36
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Originally Posted by Wycombe
Thanks, I had a feeling (and remember previous discussions) that it was to do with terrain in the undershoot. As you say, it seems the extension at the other end introduces further difficulties.
Wouldn't agree that there are "difficulties", more a case of limiting options. The worldwide move away from ground based navaids is underway. Its a very attractive move for aerodrome operators, no ILS localiser/glidepath/DME equipment to purchase/install/maintain/get flight checked every six months. If the UK can buy in to the necessary satellite technology RNAV-LPV IAP is the way to go. It has already been demonstrated to be capable of CAT III operation, albeit due to off-airport obstacles CAT 1 is the best that SOU could expect.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 17:24
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN
Wouldn't agree that there are "difficulties", more a case of limiting options. The worldwide move away from ground based navaids is underway. Its a very attractive move for aerodrome operators, no ILS localiser/glidepath/DME equipment to purchase/install/maintain/get flight checked every six months. If the UK can buy in to the necessary satellite technology RNAV-LPV IAP is the way to go. It has already been demonstrated to be capable of CAT III operation, albeit due to off-airport obstacles CAT 1 is the best that SOU could expect.
Yep, by "difficulties" I meant with installing an ILS for 02, so it seems we are violent agreement. Thanks for your insight.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 20:54
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Originally Posted by Wycombe
Yep, by "difficulties" I meant with installing an ILS for 02, so it seems we are violent agreement. Thanks for your insight.
Nothing violent about the agreement, predictive text strikes again????
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Old 8th Oct 2022, 15:14
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Looks like TUI are re adjusting there flights for next summer
As it stands there is no Ibiza schedule as BA have pulled the route for next summer along with Florence and Nice

The Tuesday service to Palma has been re introduced using Volotea , although the seat plan shows a B717 ?

TUI are using a whole BA Cityflyer charter for the Saturday flight to Palma and not Volotea , same as this summer
They have also again taken seats on the Sat / Sun BA scheduled flights as well
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Old 8th Oct 2022, 23:09
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Hopefully Volotea will still be flying next year. A few rumours of Covid debts casing them to seek further urgent investment.
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