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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 12:48
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I agree Brian.

It's almost like the ground handlers are running the show and deciding who comes in and who they send elsewhere NOT MAG management.


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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 13:01
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
MAN benefits hugely from economies of scale. If there is a flight from anywhere else in the north of England (Britain?), and a similar one from MAN, you know which one is most likely to get cancelled. MAN also benefits from its big cusomer base of airlines, where ad hoc flights tend to go where there are pre-existing relationships - the various delivery flights over the years being the most eye-catching examples.
Well i was actually going to say it's usually the Manchester flight but I'm sure you actually mean a service into Birmingham, EMA, LBA or Liverpool. 😁

On a theme the Liverpool route development are doing some excellent work, who could possibly have conceived of Lufthansa starting over there given the excellent network and indeed long standing relationship with Manchester.

When one of your largest customers pitches up 20 miles away albeit 4 days a week it's still a bit of an eye roll moment.

Economies of scale fell flat with that one.



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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 13:55
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Originally Posted by brian_dromey View Post
The debate about T&Cs and outsourcing in the industry are interesting. Ryanair and easyJet are beginning to see the benefits of taking their largest stations in-house, or at least operated by an group division, or joint venture. Reading between the lines it looks like Swissport just cannot deliver the flexibility and performance that Ryanair and easyJet need at their biggest stations, so the pendulum on outsourcing may be beginning to swing in the other direction. But if Swissport and the few other remaining companies cannot serve their regular customers there is little hope of them serving some ad-hoc charters.
https://airlinergs.com/issue-article...-and-stansted/
An interesting post and thanks for the link. I'd forgotten that Ryanair had changed their handling arrangements at STN. If their proposed expansion at MAN for the summer based on slots goes ahead, I wonder if the situation here will be reviewed, although on a different scale to STN.
I think I'm right in saying that Jet2, which has a substantial operation at MAN, particularly over the summer, do their own handling. Whether that applies at their other bases, I'm not sure.


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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 14:25
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AndrewH52 -

QUOTE: For heavens sake, take your bonnet off and let that particular bee out!

Amidst an otherwise constructive and civilised discussion, you alone posted disrespectful content (quote above refers), so it is unbecoming to act offended when you receive a robust response by return. Far better to post constructive content which adds to the debate rather than resorting to attempts to humiliate or ridicule other posters. And your post 888 does read as if BHX is notamed closed all day (as opposed to a H2.30 block at night), so it is legitimate for other readers to challenge you on that claim.

On the core issue under discussion, it is clear that MAN has turned away a series of flights, which does appear to be an uncomfortably common occurrence at this airport in particular. MAN actually became known as "the airport that likes to say NO" in certain sectors of the industry. I'd like to see that strapline consigned to history, but this unwelcome reputation seems as valid as ever at this point.

As others have explained, there are occasions when it makes sense for a business to turn away ad-hoc work. Most here would recognise that. But it seems to be almost the norm at MAN - we've come to expect them to say NO by default - and at a time when they've lost around two-thirds of their pre-covid regular throughput, it is legitimate to ask the question as to why they still don't pull out the stops to win back some incremental business. Staff shortages seem to be the answer, but if they can't handle a massively reduced workload (compared with 2019 levels), it is fair to enquire whether they were over-zealous with redundancies / furloughs and whether they're avoidably behind the curve in building back capability. I'm not judging whether MAG have got it wrong - maybe so, maybe not - but it is an appropriate discussion to have on a Manchester Airport forum. So please do treat all contributors with respect, and add only comments which further inform the debate.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 20:22
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Originally Posted by MANFOD View Post
An interesting post and thanks for the link. I'd forgotten that Ryanair had changed their handling arrangements at STN. If their proposed expansion at MAN for the summer based on slots goes ahead, I wonder if the situation here will be reviewed, although on a different scale to STN.
I think I'm right in saying that Jet2, which has a substantial operation at MAN, particularly over the summer, do their own handling. Whether that applies at their other bases, I'm not sure.
Interestingly its not just STN, Azur is at 25 Spanish airports and they also mention Poland as well. They have always self-handled at DUB too. Jet2 self-handle at LBA, MAN, EMA, STN, Murcia, Alicante, Palma, Almeria, Malaga, Barcelona, Reus, Menorca, Ibiza, Girona, the Canaries, and Faro. I think there might be more, where they just have "above wing" agents, Im sure Jet2 had uniformed staff at DBV when I was there a few years back. Either contract or direct employed, it's safe to say they have invested a huge amount in their own teams at airports in the UK and in Europe, especially in respect to their size.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 21:25
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Ryanair self handle (ooer missus!) at Dublin but the STN operation is a joint venture with a.n.other 3rd party handler and is labelled as "Blue Handling", like Norwegian at LGW who still have control of Red Handling and the few remaining zero hours rampies. I think they're arms length 3rd party branding rather than in-house, even GGS at LGW isn't really in-house for BA.
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Old 22nd Dec 2021, 23:27
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot View Post
Ryanair self handle (ooer missus!) at Dublin but the STN operation is a joint venture with a.n.other 3rd party handler and is labelled as "Blue Handling", like Norwegian at LGW who still have control of Red Handling and the few remaining zero hours rampies. I think they're arms length 3rd party branding rather than in-house, even GGS at LGW isn't really in-house for BA.
Thatís true indeed. I think STN is omniserv from memory. The reasons FR and Jet2 give for taking more control over handling are fairly similar though - handling specialists could not give us the efficiency/stability/customer experience our operation required and our operation was not prioritised over all others, especially when tech/delay issues cropped up.

How any of that relates to MAN Iím not sure. But there is some signs of change in the handling business. I think the bottom of the barrel had been scraped in terms of costs - quite a few handlers have gone broke.

As for who has a say in accepting aircraft, I guess the final say does lie with the handlers in as much as an airline canít offload the aircraft if no-one will handle it. Best off taking business elsewhere than having an aircraft and crew stranded on a taxiway at airport X.
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Old 23rd Dec 2021, 17:20
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Great points brian_dromey
So what handling agents does MAN still have nowadays?
Swissport
Menzies
DNATA
Do they have DHL?
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Old 23rd Dec 2021, 17:32
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I believe DHL handle easyJet.
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Old 23rd Dec 2021, 20:08
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot View Post
Great points brian_dromey
So what handling agents does MAN still have nowadays?
Swissport
Menzies
DNATA
Do they have DHL?
You can add Stobart (Esken) to that list. Jet2 and FedEx self handle.
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Old 27th Dec 2021, 09:36
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Was there a problem at Manchester last night?

LS250 wanted to divert in but ended up in Glasgow.
They self handle so presume a company decision rather than one imposed by MAG
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Old 27th Dec 2021, 10:51
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Originally Posted by Navpi View Post
Was there a problem at Manchester last night?

LS250 wanted to divert in but ended up in Glasgow.
They self handle so presume a company decision rather than one imposed by MAG
MAN has a familiar "no diversions except emergencies" notam out which I assume overrides whether the handler is prepared to take diversions or not. Jet2 used EDI & NCL as alternates last evening too.
According to another forum, a Ryanair from DUB diverting from LBA this morning was refused at LPL & BHX as well as MAN.
I think the MAN notam applied from 21 Dec. until 1 Jan. and of course it could be reissued then.

Edit: Just to add that apparently a RYR positioning from MAN to LBA was even refused a return to MAN when he couldn't get into LBA, and went to LPL.
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Old 27th Dec 2021, 12:47
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If the handlers are willing what's the reason for the refusal? ATC are there anyway, airfield ops shouldn't reallly be required, so genuine question, what's the pain point? Previously it was lack of stands, they're not maxxed out so far as I know?
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Old 27th Dec 2021, 13:37
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All of the handling agents, ground staff and security are at breaking point. Especially in the middle of what is effectively a four day Bank Holiday. No one wants to give up their free time to be treated like garbage by employers who are cutting terms & conditions and pay.
It's pay back time.
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Old 27th Dec 2021, 13:40
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot View Post
If the handlers are willing what's the reason for the refusal? ATC are there anyway, airfield ops shouldn't reallly be required, so genuine question, what's the pain point? Previously it was lack of stands, they're not maxxed out so far as I know?
A fair question Skip, but we don't know for sure whether any of the handlers were prepared to accept diversions, even the self-handling Jet2. One would like to think there is proper liaison with the handling agents before such a decision is taken, but inevitably, as MAN seems to have acquired something of a reputation as 'the airport that likes to say no', questions will be raised as to whether it's simply the airport itself for whatever reason that has decided on the 'no diversions' notam. My guess would be that significant staff shortages all round is the likely explanation.



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Old 28th Dec 2021, 10:02
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Fair points, maybe the ground handlers need to fix rates in the same way that lorry drivers now receive fair rates of recompense or throw in the towel.

Why can't the handling agents pay proper rates and pass these charges on as any other industry would ?

Why is the airline industry somehow immune ?

All industries are suffering but somehow seem to
get by and a natural economic order surfaces.

With regards Manchester and these diverts, it's almost as if we have created a culture where the "no can do attitude is corrosive", it appears especially so if MANFODs observation is to be believed.

I'm slightly incredulous as to who is writing these NOTAMS and making this decision, who is issuing this order ?

"you can't divert to Manchester due to a NOTAM"

Who is it who has the authority on the ground to tell an infinitely more qualified pilot circling the Pennines at 6000 feet with 200 passengers you cannot land here ?

If MANFOD is correct and both aircraft did end up in Scotland that is madness from both a safety and economics point of view. Jet2 do actually self handle at MAN so i would be really suprised if this was the result of an internal commercial decision.











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Old 28th Dec 2021, 10:34
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Why can't the handling agents pay proper rates and pass these charges on as any other industry would ?
Because in the grand scheme of things, two aircraft diverting to Scotland doesn't matter - to the airlines its a drop in the ocean, they won't pay extra for 99.99% of their flights so the 00.01% can get diverted to the most convenient place, it won't make the 24 hour news cycle, there won't be questions in parliament, there won't be a Twitter storm. just a few raised eyebrows on specialist forums.

And that's just like any other industry.
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Old 28th Dec 2021, 13:28
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The Ryanairs ended up in Edinburgh mainly because Liverpool wasnít accepting diversions yesterday due to staff shortages.

The aircrew would have known MAN wasnít an option before they left the ground as the NOTAM about only accepting emergency diversions was issued in 20th December and runs through to 1st January.
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Old 28th Dec 2021, 17:19
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Originally Posted by MANFOD View Post
MAN has a familiar "no diversions except emergencies" notam out which I assume overrides whether the handler is prepared to take diversions or not. Jet2 used EDI & NCL as alternates last evening too.
According to another forum, a Ryanair from DUB diverting from LBA this morning was refused at LPL & BHX as well as MAN.
I think the MAN notam applied from 21 Dec. until 1 Jan. and of course it could be reissued then.

Edit: Just to add that apparently a RYR positioning from MAN to LBA was even refused a return to MAN when he couldn't get into LBA, and went to LPL.
I don't know if you are talking about the same FR flight, but it then left LPL for LBA, couldn't get in again, then went back to LPL for a second time.
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Old 28th Dec 2021, 19:17
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Handling agents have been in a race to the bottom for years, slashing costs and wages as the airlines demand more for less every time. It can go massively wrong if you need a decent level of service though, Virgin dropped Swissport Gatwick and BA had to take their outsourced LGW ramp operation over (albeit with the same people they used to employ) as GGS when Swissport dropped the ball. Indeed Ryanair did the same at STN with er....Swissport. Running theme there maybe, bottom line being there's loads of zero hour contracts and no contingency when things don't run to plan. Blame the airlines, who blame the market for expecting something for almost nothing. It makes the old Servisair look like a gold plated superstar by comparison.
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