Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.

Manchester-3

Old 7th Apr 2024, 14:58
  #3881 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London
Age: 43
Posts: 1,638
Received 11 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Sotonsean
I must admit Skip, that once I started reading your post and the way in which it was typed, my immediate thought was, has he been having a cheeky Sunday afternoon drink 🍸
We just need to challenge the group-think that goes on about "fairness" and "deserving". Spend less time paying any attention to marketing fluff and pay attention to what the business does and why. Virgin don't have cash to splash, they need to focus laser like on survival and paying down the debt that's weighing them down. They have no recent history of consistent profitability and decent margins and are struggling now, in the good times where competitors are making hay. That said, a split hub strategy makes no sense, nor does a split London operation IMHO. We're never far from the next recession in aviation and if Virgin are still stuck under a debt mountain, we only need look at Thomas Cook to see what can happen. I agree it's a shame that MAN won't get a Clubhouse, but I can only assume the business case no longer stacks up.
Skipness One Foxtrot is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 05:36
  #3882 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 65
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Hatred, vendetta ?

Colourful language none of which was actually used.

You do have a habit of taking perfectly reasonable comments and anointing them with your own colourful language in order to create a false narrative of what was actually said originally.

No toxicity up here Skip we just want a more level playing field that isn't listing to 45 degrees.

No limousine service from home.
No first class seperate lounge.
Slightly higher fares for the "privilege" of using Manchester
A hotch potch frequency in some instances, eg 4 a week
Limited frequency per day
Limitations of destinations.

....if you don't strive to provide the same offer opportunity as that available from Heathrow you don't succeed.

Our network going East is perfectly acceptable, West less so.

The same applies to freight.

No subsidies but a little bit of of levelling up with the same offer as LHR comes to mind, even IF it's on the margins.

I'm not expecting 126 flights a day to the USA but a bit more than the current meagre offering would be nice.

....And a mention in the PR that demonstrates we are actually STILL a part of the Virgin family would be nice would it not?











Last edited by Navpi; 8th Apr 2024 at 06:00.
Navpi is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 06:30
  #3883 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 8,811
Received 187 Likes on 127 Posts
No toxicity up here Skip we just want a more level playing field that isn't listing to 45 degrees.
No subsidies but a little bit of of levelling up with the same offer as LHR comes to mind, even IF it's on the margins.
The point that S1E is making is that for commercial organisations, this will only happen if they can make better returns from MAN than they can elsewhere
SWBKCB is online now  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 08:36
  #3884 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,528
Received 37 Likes on 21 Posts
Virgin Atlantic flies to over 30 destinations and has a Clubhouse at precisely five of them. It's got several flights a day through Orlando, through India with shared lounges - exactly as it has at Manchester. If Manchester is a poor relation, then it's in good company alongside Orlando and Delhi and 25 other Virgin destinations worldwide, but I don't see forums here moaning about those.

Manchester has got no god-given right to multiple destinations and frequencies by Virgin Atlantic - it will do what it wants, when it wants, and what it believes will be profitable. This "levelling up" stuff is just nonsense. And if they don't take up the huge opportunity at Manchester that others foresee, then it will be Virgin's loss if Aer Lingus UK expands or United, American, BA, Norse or whomever else comes charging in on a white horse to correct this perceived inequality. The fact that none of them have rather suggests that others take a similar view of the market potential at Manchester as that which Virgin itself has reached. They can't all be wrong.
Flightrider is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 09:44
  #3885 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: GB
Posts: 268
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Flightrider
Virgin Atlantic flies to over 30 destinations and has a Clubhouse at precisely five of them. It's got several flights a day through Orlando, through India with shared lounges - exactly as it has at Manchester. If Manchester is a poor relation, then it's in good company alongside Orlando and Delhi and 25 other Virgin destinations worldwide, but I don't see forums here moaning about those.

Manchester has got no god-given right to multiple destinations and frequencies by Virgin Atlantic - it will do what it wants, when it wants, and what it believes will be profitable. This "levelling up" stuff is just nonsense. And if they don't take up the huge opportunity at Manchester that others foresee, then it will be Virgin's loss if Aer Lingus UK expands or United, American, BA, Norse or whomever else comes charging in on a white horse to correct this perceived inequality. The fact that none of them have rather suggests that others take a similar view of the market potential at Manchester as that which Virgin itself has reached. They can't all be wrong.
Because Delhi, Orlando and the 25 other destinations are outstations. Virgin doesn't call them 'our home in Florida ... our home in India'...

Virgin talk the talk , NO WONDER people choose to go to LHR, when for the same price they can go to the Clubhouse !

Up to 5 daily flights on some days, that’s a decent amount as well as 7 daily KLM, 4 daily AF, and multiple dailies by SAS whose passengers could also make use of the lounge - more than enough

Ignoring the sentiments that have played a part in your post, the idea that MAN shouldn’t come to expect a clubhouse is ridiculous.

Promised since 2019 - 5 years on, we are well within our rights to complain about its non appearance
laviation is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 10:13
  #3886 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Eas Anglia
Age: 65
Posts: 817
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Indeed, some people have amnesia or jump in without a forensic knowledge of the subject.

“In order to provide an unrivalled travel experience, Virgin Atlantic will bring its iconic Clubhouse lounge to Manchester for the first time from Spring 2020. Upper Class customers and Gold Card members can take advantage of the exclusive space before their flight, which will include a la carte dining and a full service bar, quiet working spaces and a spa, allowing passengers to relax and rejuvenate before they depart.”

Most would argue the landscape now is the same as it was pre covid ?

My original sentiment however was more about the gushing PR puff piece that focused on expansion in 2024. Manchester is a part of that last time I checked but was omitted from the piece above !




Last edited by Navpi; 8th Apr 2024 at 10:54.
Navpi is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 10:21
  #3887 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 8,811
Received 187 Likes on 127 Posts
This is the point that is being made - it's not about what has been 'promised' or what MAN 'deserves'. How much would Virgin have to spend on a clubhouse and how much extra income would it generate? Virgin lost £139m last year
SWBKCB is online now  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 13:25
  #3888 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ex 5Y. Now G
Posts: 599
Received 40 Likes on 17 Posts
HELP ON ARRIVAL MANCHESTER?

I arrive in Manchester tomorrow morning from Nairobi via Paris. I have 5 pieces of hold luggage each weighing 32Kg plus carry on, plus wife and a small child in a buggy. On departure from Nairobi we were able to arrange assistance from car park to gate at a modest cost, but I have not been able to find any similar service in Manchester. I don't know how I will manhandle all that stuff through customs and out to the car park where we are being met by a taxi. Is there any way I can get assistance?


Thanks!
double_barrel is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 13:31
  #3889 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North West UK
Posts: 540
Received 11 Likes on 5 Posts
https://royalairportconcierge.com/Airport/man/

https://fastrackvip.com/airports/manchester/
Espada III is online now  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 13:39
  #3890 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: ex 5Y. Now G
Posts: 599
Received 40 Likes on 17 Posts

I called both, they say meet and greet has been suspended in MAN for the last 2 years! Any other ideas?
double_barrel is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 14:05
  #3891 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: earth
Posts: 956
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
prem air arrivals service is closed https://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/premiair/

i sugest you phone the airport or use chat on their website and ask what's available (if anything)

the handling agents listed on the website below may have a solution if you call them. details below

https://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/...ggage-reclaim/

there's also some links to accessibility info if that is applicable
lfc84 is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 14:35
  #3892 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,528
Received 37 Likes on 21 Posts
Most would argue the landscape now is the same as it was pre covid ?
The landscape for Virgin in Manchester certainly isn't the same as it was pre-Covid. US West Coast gone. India expansion plans gone. Vegas only now being restored as a summer route. No Delta Boston.

If you have fewer passengers at an airport, you have less need for a huge investment in a Clubhouse. It's business common sense, even though you seem to be expected to to park that outside the door upon entry to this particular PPruNe thread.

And just to add, JFK has a Clubhouse (as do Washington Dulles, Johannesburg and San Francisco) even though they are not bases. If I recall correctly what I once heard, the economics of at least two of those depend on other airlines using the Virgin Atlantic lounge to provide volume and thus revenue to support their operation.
Flightrider is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 15:34
  #3893 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Danunder
Age: 49
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by double_barrel
I called both, they say meet and greet has been suspended in MAN for the last 2 years! Any other ideas?
Paying extra for the taxi driver to meet you in arrivals, rather than at the car park, would make it easier for you. Perhaps ask the handling agent at the arrival gate for their help - they (or the airport) sometimes have staff at Baggage Reclaim an. Remember you will also be charged for a trolley.
UnderASouthernSky is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 15:44
  #3894 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: GB
Posts: 268
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Flightrider
The landscape for Virgin in Manchester certainly isn't the same as it was pre-Covid. US West Coast gone. India expansion plans gone. Vegas only now being restored as a summer route. No Delta Boston.

If you have fewer passengers at an airport, you have less need for a huge investment in a Clubhouse. It's business common sense, even though you seem to be expected to to park that outside the door upon entry to this particular PPruNe thread.

And just to add, JFK has a Clubhouse (as do Washington Dulles, Johannesburg and San Francisco) even though they are not bases. If I recall correctly what I once heard, the economics of at least two of those depend on other airlines using the Virgin Atlantic lounge to provide volume and thus revenue to support their operation.
Minus 3 LAX, 3 BOS, and a couple of MCO frequencies, the VS operation in Summer 2024 will be exactly the same as in 2019.
laviation is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 16:46
  #3895 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Uttoxeter
Age: 46
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm just gonna throw this out there as an outside observer of the world between 2019 and today. I dont profess to be an expert and have no insider knowledge of the comings and goings of the industry but do follow the news pieces, forums and any other general information that comes about to form my opinion and here it is....

2019 was a very different world to today. Indeed Thomas Cook was thriving (well the airline was anyway) as a Manchester based longhaul airline with plans for expansion. Virgin wanted in on this too and also made great plans with promises of a Club House because they could see a that with extra flights the critical mass would be there to make such a venture possible. Back in 2019 the market going West was there. Sure the Dollar wasn't as it was a few years before but visits to the USA were affordable and profitable.

Then in September 2019 Thomas Cook was sadly taken from us by the collapse of the parent company (caused by bad financial decisions eventually catching up but that's another story). Virgin saw this as an opportunity and doubled down with the promise of extra flights. They just needed the aircraft...

But then in March 2020 (earlier for some countries), the world changed with COVID and national lockdowns. Everything changed. EVERYTHING. The way we work, the way we shop, the way we travel.

Fast forward to today, five years after 2019 and indeed there are signs that Manchester has recovered in passenger numbers to what they were in 2019. But the passengers aren't travelling to the USA in great numbers anymore. It's too expensive. People want more for their money and they are finding it in other places that the USA.

Maybe that's why the US carriers haven't come back? Manchester has always been an out bound market to the USA. But that market has shrunk now. That's fact.

The biggest market for Virgin has always been the USA. They were set up by Branson to compete with BA on transatlantic and the odd service elsewhere that could make a few quid. In 2019 that odd service was Manchester mainly going west with the odd India service thrown in.

But the reality I see now in 2024, is that Manchester has become even more leisure orientated than it was in 2019 and those passengers are more price sensitive, even taking into account frequent fliers, than the previous clientle.

Virgin are heavily in debt and as a business they should do everything they can to pay down that debt before embarking on what is (in my opinion) a massive risky investment in a Clubhouse at Manchester for a few premium passengers. Perhaps that's the reality and that promise has to be broken.....


Last edited by sportzbar; 8th Apr 2024 at 16:48. Reason: Spelling
sportzbar is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 17:52
  #3896 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London
Age: 43
Posts: 1,638
Received 11 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by laviation
Up to 5 daily flights on some days, that’s a decent amount as well as 7 daily KLM, 4 daily AF, and multiple dailies by SAS whose passengers could also make use of the lounge - more than enough
Ignoring the sentiments that have played a part in your post, the idea that MAN shouldn’t come to expect a clubhouse is ridiculous.
So, why do we all think they're not building a Clubhouse at MAN after all? I suggested that the Finance Team working with the CEO had decided that the numbers didn't stack up given the financial position that the airline remains trapped in. I think the guys with access to the numbers have some very tough decisions to make. So, if you're right, and they should spend a few million quid on a lounge and then charge their partners to use it, if it's THAT easy, what's your explanation as to why they're not doing so? That was why I jokingly suggested "they just hate the North", that's plainly ridiculous, they do not. They seem to do well out of MAN. There's a lot of sentiment on here around "fairness" and "deserving" which in is a classically Northern sentiment, (not a criticism), but it will kill you stone dead in business if you're not careful. Aircraft are THE most mobile off assets and have to be deployed where they get the most bang for their buck.
Skipness One Foxtrot is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 18:14
  #3897 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,792
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Flightrider
The landscape for Virgin in Manchester certainly isn't the same as it was pre-Covid. US West Coast gone. India expansion plans gone. Vegas only now being restored as a summer route. No Delta Boston.

If you have fewer passengers at an airport, you have less need for a huge investment in a Clubhouse. It's business common sense, even though you seem to be expected to to park that outside the door upon entry to this particular PPruNe thread.

And just to add, JFK has a Clubhouse (as do Washington Dulles, Johannesburg and San Francisco) even though they are not bases. If I recall correctly what I once heard, the economics of at least two of those depend on other airlines using the Virgin Atlantic lounge to provide volume and thus revenue to support their operation.
Just wait until JetBlue arrive. Then will see. The JFK route will be let's say; hotly contested.
EI-BUD is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 18:22
  #3898 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: .
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by laviation
Minus 3 LAX, 3 BOS, and a couple of MCO frequencies, the VS operation in Summer 2024 will be exactly the same as in 2019.
Unless I'm reading the numbers wrong, according to ACL, Virgin's seat capacity this summer at Manchester is 605,262. Summer 2019 they had 817,572. So they're still 25% down on their offering 5 years ago.
cavokblues is offline  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 18:26
  #3899 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: SYD
Posts: 538
Received 3 Likes on 1 Post
Perhaps Virgin would be better advised to negotiate a link up with PREMIAIR at Manchester Airport. That should certainly tick the box for a premium pre-flight experience. It should be possible to agree a price point with MAG at which it could be included in the 'Upper Class' tariff, offsetting the limos and Clubhouses included in the ticket price at other larger stations. No new build is needed for this. No direct investment from Virgin. The dedicated Premiair terminal is there awaiting use.
OzzyOzBorn is online now  
Old 8th Apr 2024, 18:50
  #3900 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Leeds, UK & Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cavokblues
Unless I'm reading the numbers wrong, according to ACL, Virgin's seat capacity this summer at Manchester is 605,262. Summer 2019 they had 817,572. So they're still 25% down on their offering 5 years ago.
They were still operating the 747s with the small Upper Class cabins then? Quite a big capacity difference compared to the A330s, I think?

brian_dromey is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.