Manchester-3
No idea where you see a $10K fare in economy for United on NYC-Beijing as they don't serve the route. Sounds like an Air China codeshare out of JFK and fares aren't THAT high so no idea what you're doing. So there's not many in the US going to be self connecting to Hainan off a STAR ALLIANCE United or a Skyteam Virgin flight. Both operators have their own partner airlines in Air China and China Eastern respectively.
Genuine question, what's the TATL / short haul at £1350 you're quoting, what was the route that got you that?
The $1900 connection is market rate for a protected connection that will get you on the next flight if things go amiss, if you don't wanna pay market rate and take your own route, then you're not at the front of the queue for a rerouting in any misconnect. I have done self connecting many times in the US, it's not a big deal for me, but the wider market is wary. There's a chap called patrickz80 elsewhere who promotes that sort of thing for Europe and can't wrap his head around why more people won't do it.
Genuine question, what's the TATL / short haul at £1350 you're quoting, what was the route that got you that?
The $1900 connection is market rate for a protected connection that will get you on the next flight if things go amiss, if you don't wanna pay market rate and take your own route, then you're not at the front of the queue for a rerouting in any misconnect. I have done self connecting many times in the US, it's not a big deal for me, but the wider market is wary. There's a chap called patrickz80 elsewhere who promotes that sort of thing for Europe and can't wrap his head around why more people won't do it.
They have been on and off for Newark to Beijing for a while now.
That doesn’t change the argument. Via Warsaw was still advertised and notably more expensive than via Manchester that wasn’t.
Couldn’t care less if it’s Star Alliance or the Rainbow Army. We just want to go where we want to go. I think that’s the audience here.
Agreed that self connect is a choice with pros and cons. I’m just calling to better advertise the option.
The whole point is putting the airport out front rather than the airline, that includes alliances.
It may be a little bit of a mind shift. That passengers are also prospects to be developed, not just airlines.
They have a development team for airlines. Do they have a development team for passengers?
Last edited by Bbtengineer; 9th Feb 2024 at 22:47.
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I see The Virgin cutback MAN ATL has seemingly been missed by many.
5 to just 4 a week. Ouch !
A 25% cut to a mainline business hub destination is massive in my view.
The MEBs have learnt all about certainty of service, "ideally daily", steadily increasing and more will make more....!
The VIR Atlanta a UK originating business class destination now down to 4 a week. One hoped it might be daily summer 24 not going down to 4 a week !
No punters, managed decline , higher yield elsewhere ?
Cause and effect ?
If trends across other airports were down one could understand it but across Europe trends are all up and are buoyant.
DUB 21 daily services this summer and whilst some may be seasonal they are all key destinations not holiday sunspots.
LHR is circa 120, LA is now "hourly" !
Manchester gains an extra Barbados !!!
How can a city with a catchment area of 8m people less than 60 minutes away not fill this type of service. Pre covid MAN had daily services to numerous major hubs admittedly not all at the sametime but you could generally serve and fill Newark, Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago and Philadelphia et al .....all daily.
I did wonder if Virgin dark arts were at work and were somehow diverting pax artificially South but absolutely not.
Checking a date 1st May
Man Atlanta 708
LHR Atlanta 648...so price is not a factor.
Is it landing fees?
Well no again as they have simply moved the aircraft to another route, clearly the yield on that route must be stellar compared to Atlanta.
The competition to ATL would be other hubs, if its price Paris and even Keflavik come into play , where fares come in at £500 but not sure 17 hours and multiple stops warrant a £200 saving.
Thoughts from the Manchester congregation?
5 to just 4 a week. Ouch !
A 25% cut to a mainline business hub destination is massive in my view.
The MEBs have learnt all about certainty of service, "ideally daily", steadily increasing and more will make more....!
The VIR Atlanta a UK originating business class destination now down to 4 a week. One hoped it might be daily summer 24 not going down to 4 a week !
No punters, managed decline , higher yield elsewhere ?
Cause and effect ?
If trends across other airports were down one could understand it but across Europe trends are all up and are buoyant.
DUB 21 daily services this summer and whilst some may be seasonal they are all key destinations not holiday sunspots.
LHR is circa 120, LA is now "hourly" !
Manchester gains an extra Barbados !!!
How can a city with a catchment area of 8m people less than 60 minutes away not fill this type of service. Pre covid MAN had daily services to numerous major hubs admittedly not all at the sametime but you could generally serve and fill Newark, Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago and Philadelphia et al .....all daily.
I did wonder if Virgin dark arts were at work and were somehow diverting pax artificially South but absolutely not.
Checking a date 1st May
Man Atlanta 708
LHR Atlanta 648...so price is not a factor.
Is it landing fees?
Well no again as they have simply moved the aircraft to another route, clearly the yield on that route must be stellar compared to Atlanta.
The competition to ATL would be other hubs, if its price Paris and even Keflavik come into play , where fares come in at £500 but not sure 17 hours and multiple stops warrant a £200 saving.
Thoughts from the Manchester congregation?
Last edited by Navpi; 11th Feb 2024 at 07:10.
Its really difficult to see how any English airport outside London can hope to hold on to a decent T/A network as the market is so skewed towards the 'UK Mecca'.
Add to that the UK economy and the fact that the USA is no longer a cheap destination and times are tough.
The MEB are probably different since many are arms of the various governments who see their airlines as 'willy waving' tools, but also because a chunk of their traffic is VFR , and many of their final hub destinations aren't so hard on the wallet.
Add to that the UK economy and the fact that the USA is no longer a cheap destination and times are tough.
The MEB are probably different since many are arms of the various governments who see their airlines as 'willy waving' tools, but also because a chunk of their traffic is VFR , and many of their final hub destinations aren't so hard on the wallet.
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Yes, it is - A slight drop in frequency during the lowest of the low season is not unheard of at all. Especially when that aircraft could be making more money during the month flying to Barbados.
Fingers crossed MAN may regain a couple of hub connections in 2025 - nothing firmed up yet though!
Fingers crossed MAN may regain a couple of hub connections in 2025 - nothing firmed up yet though!
I see The Virgin cutback MAN ATL has seemingly been missed by many.
5 to just 4 a week. Ouch !
A 25% cut to a mainline business hub destination is massive in my view.
The MEBs have learnt all about certainty of service, "ideally daily", steadily increasing and more will make more....!
The VIR Atlanta a UK originating business class destination now down to 4 a week. One hoped it might be daily summer 24 not going down to 4 a week !
5 to just 4 a week. Ouch !
A 25% cut to a mainline business hub destination is massive in my view.
The MEBs have learnt all about certainty of service, "ideally daily", steadily increasing and more will make more....!
The VIR Atlanta a UK originating business class destination now down to 4 a week. One hoped it might be daily summer 24 not going down to 4 a week !
20% or 25% isn't the issue, its just iffy maths.
The question at hand is more a case of why. The obvious answer to that specific question is because Virgin feels it can make more money on other routes.
The next question, is how the decline in transatlantic services can be arrested and turned around. I fear it can't be until money and influence is more equally distributed across the nation rather than disproportionately in London and parts of the Southeast and that isn't going to happen any time soon.
The question at hand is more a case of why. The obvious answer to that specific question is because Virgin feels it can make more money on other routes.
The next question, is how the decline in transatlantic services can be arrested and turned around. I fear it can't be until money and influence is more equally distributed across the nation rather than disproportionately in London and parts of the Southeast and that isn't going to happen any time soon.
20% or 25% isn't the issue, its just iffy maths.
The question at hand is more a case of why. The obvious answer to that specific question is because Virgin feels it can make more money on other routes.
The next question, is how the decline in transatlantic services can be arrested and turned around. I fear it can't be until money and influence is more equally distributed across the nation rather than disproportionately in London and parts of the Southeast and that isn't going to happen any time soon.
The question at hand is more a case of why. The obvious answer to that specific question is because Virgin feels it can make more money on other routes.
The next question, is how the decline in transatlantic services can be arrested and turned around. I fear it can't be until money and influence is more equally distributed across the nation rather than disproportionately in London and parts of the Southeast and that isn't going to happen any time soon.
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MAN's TA traffic is mainly UK originating for leisure purposes and with the US now being a very expensive place to visit for Brits I dont see much of a change until that changes. The decline in TA traffic for MAN is more releated to that than aything else, and that is way beyond MAN's control.
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If you want daily MAN-ATL in winter then you need a smaller aircraft, a Delta B763 or an A321N in future. Not an option with Virgin.
Navpi says : "LHR is circa 120, LA is now "hourly" !"
If you continue to frame your own success in tems of another you will go mad, LHR is far enough away to make connecting there a pain and the BA option is awful. LHR-LAX is only 12 daily reflecting the entertainment industry :
AA x 3 BA x 3
VS x 3 DL x1
UA x2
No comparison with MAN, DUB is a fairer proxy.
Navpi says : "LHR is circa 120, LA is now "hourly" !"
If you continue to frame your own success in tems of another you will go mad, LHR is far enough away to make connecting there a pain and the BA option is awful. LHR-LAX is only 12 daily reflecting the entertainment industry :
AA x 3 BA x 3
VS x 3 DL x1
UA x2
No comparison with MAN, DUB is a fairer proxy.
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It does bring up an interesting conversation to be had with Virgin ex MAN.
Where could they feasibly add in the short term?
In my eyes, an extra two A330 could quite nicely do this:
- 2 weekly Tampa in the summer to compliment the existing 12 weekly Orlando
- 4 weekly Delhi, year round
- 4 weekly Mumbai, year round
- 4 weekly Los Angeles, decreases to 2 in the winter.
- Las Vegas extended into the winter months at 2 weekly - using the LAX frequencies
- Two weekly, winter seasonal Montego Bay
- Boston, daily on DL metal 752s. Summer seasonal
These are all realistic goals that can easily be achieved. Do Virgin have the will to do this? The jury is definitely out on that. But, with rumoured impending expansion by EUK, they’ll have to make a move soon.
In time, I’d hope ex TCX destinations like Seattle could be given a second look - three weekly in the summer backed up by DL connections would do just fine.
Where could they feasibly add in the short term?
In my eyes, an extra two A330 could quite nicely do this:
- 2 weekly Tampa in the summer to compliment the existing 12 weekly Orlando
- 4 weekly Delhi, year round
- 4 weekly Mumbai, year round
- 4 weekly Los Angeles, decreases to 2 in the winter.
- Las Vegas extended into the winter months at 2 weekly - using the LAX frequencies
- Two weekly, winter seasonal Montego Bay
- Boston, daily on DL metal 752s. Summer seasonal
These are all realistic goals that can easily be achieved. Do Virgin have the will to do this? The jury is definitely out on that. But, with rumoured impending expansion by EUK, they’ll have to make a move soon.
In time, I’d hope ex TCX destinations like Seattle could be given a second look - three weekly in the summer backed up by DL connections would do just fine.
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A VERY reliable source is SPD who paraphrased another reliable source, but it didn't mention "a few weeks" in January, it was W24 with a possible inference being that then stuck.
However apologies if it is just a few weeks and hurrah if Atlanta is unchanged.
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It does bring up an interesting conversation to be had with Virgin ex MAN.
Where could they feasibly add in the short term?
In my eyes, an extra two A330 could quite nicely do this:
- 2 weekly Tampa in the summer to compliment the existing 12 weekly Orlando
- 4 weekly Delhi, year round
- 4 weekly Mumbai, year round
- 4 weekly Los Angeles, decreases to 2 in the winter.
- Las Vegas extended into the winter months at 2 weekly - using the LAX frequencies
- Two weekly, winter seasonal Montego Bay
- Boston, daily on DL metal 752s. Summer seasonal
These are all realistic goals that can easily be achieved. Do Virgin have the will to do this? The jury is definitely out on that. But, with rumoured impending expansion by EUK, they’ll have to make a move soon.
In time, I’d hope ex TCX destinations like Seattle could be given a second look - three weekly in the summer backed up by DL connections would do just fine.
Where could they feasibly add in the short term?
In my eyes, an extra two A330 could quite nicely do this:
- 2 weekly Tampa in the summer to compliment the existing 12 weekly Orlando
- 4 weekly Delhi, year round
- 4 weekly Mumbai, year round
- 4 weekly Los Angeles, decreases to 2 in the winter.
- Las Vegas extended into the winter months at 2 weekly - using the LAX frequencies
- Two weekly, winter seasonal Montego Bay
- Boston, daily on DL metal 752s. Summer seasonal
These are all realistic goals that can easily be achieved. Do Virgin have the will to do this? The jury is definitely out on that. But, with rumoured impending expansion by EUK, they’ll have to make a move soon.
In time, I’d hope ex TCX destinations like Seattle could be given a second look - three weekly in the summer backed up by DL connections would do just fine.
What will change now ?
New metal is really for expansion at LHR, why take a chance on Manchester when the critical mass at LHR means every new route is a winner ?
Its a nice wish list but any airline operating ex MAN would have to have a pretty compelling case to expand up here if there true homebase is elsewhere
VIR seem to be simply shuffling the pack. Vegas is however of course welcome. There SHOULD be a market.
Even talk of EI Imay be misplaced with the two A330.
Is that due to a genuine desire to grow the MAN profile or the cap at DUB ?
There is a caveat that the recent netflix series Fool Me Once which is the number 1 drama in 2024 on that platform has just passed 37m views worldwide.
Its filmed at Arley Hall , Cheshire. Is there not a case for some VisitBritain US Downtonesque promotion.....to haul in those Americans?
Last edited by Navpi; 11th Feb 2024 at 13:24.
SQ returning to 10 per week.
