Citywing
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Harry,
so we are not talking about regulation, but about enforcement of regulation. Those are two different things.
However, can you be sure that, for example, the CAA has a resident inspector at various European airports from which bmi regional operates without ever touching UK soil - eg. the sizeable network they operate out of MUC, the routes operated to France and Belgium by a BRE-based aircraft, or their operation in the Swedish wilderness? Could be, but I doubt it.
so we are not talking about regulation, but about enforcement of regulation. Those are two different things.
However, can you be sure that, for example, the CAA has a resident inspector at various European airports from which bmi regional operates without ever touching UK soil - eg. the sizeable network they operate out of MUC, the routes operated to France and Belgium by a BRE-based aircraft, or their operation in the Swedish wilderness? Could be, but I doubt it.
"Maybe some of these routes could be a target for the likes of Loganair or Eastern albeit with slightly larger aircraft.
Can see Glasgow and Belfast being a good fit with Loganair on something like GLA-IOM-BHD-IOM-GLA routing."
Not sure about Blackpool and Gloucestershire as seemed a bit of a niche operation.
Not a bad idea , if we wind the clock back a few years Twin Otters plied the route between Blackpool and the Isle of Man daily - don't Loganair have a couple
Can see Glasgow and Belfast being a good fit with Loganair on something like GLA-IOM-BHD-IOM-GLA routing."
Not sure about Blackpool and Gloucestershire as seemed a bit of a niche operation.
Not a bad idea , if we wind the clock back a few years Twin Otters plied the route between Blackpool and the Isle of Man daily - don't Loganair have a couple
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, or cover the aircraft standing costs for nearly-new Twin Otters (clue: rather a lot more than a LET-410), I don't think you'll be seeing any Loganair Twin Otters from IOM without exceptionally strong binoculars.
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so we are not talking about regulation, but about enforcement of regulation. Those are two different things.
There are regulations (FTL's) regarding how many hours, days, accumulative hours, rest periods, days off a crew member may work.
I began to read the report of the Citywing (Manx2) ORK crash, from what I read it appeared the operator had crew members operating flights, but only on paper, when in reality it appeared that the first officer who lost his life in that crash had been working day duties as well as night duties whilst the first officer who the operator claimed to be operating some of those flights proved that he was nowhere near to Ireland during that period, he provided a boarding pass proving that he was back in Spain.
Now that operator was busting those regulations and clearly the Spanish authority didn't act sufficiently to enforce those regulations which could have been directly responsible for the subsequent loss of lives, this is serious sh1t!
With regards to the BMIr example you set, firstly inspections will take place at their operations centre, if systems are in place and paperwork in order then that is generally a pretty good sign, often the inspector will get a feeling if the operator are professional or a bunch of cowboys.
Then the inspector will do jumpseat rides, you mention a MUC base, without knowing BMIr's route network it is feasible that an inspector could jumpseat to/from MUC and do a couple of jumpseat rides whilst out there.
With a smile I recall our French inspector when I worked for a Luxembourg cargo operator, we had one aircraft working Europe and another aircraft working French Africa from/to CDG.
He wanted to jumpseat a rotation, we tried to persuade him to stay in Europe but he wasn't having any of it, the flight he rode was destination Bangui where there were thunderstorms resulting in the flight diverting to Kano. Upon arrival in Kano the Nigerian authorities determined that our inspector wasn't an operating crew member thus he had entered Nigeria illegally and they locked him up.
The subsequent telephone conversation we had with the first officer, once he had found a telephone, was one of those telephone conversations that one will never forget ... "Our inspector is in prison"
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The Cork crash was with a Spanish airline, if I am not mistaken. Vanair is a Czech airline. Citywing has also employed a German airline (FLM) in the past, they are now using a Danish airline and a Polish airline. So while I get your point, it ultimately means that you advocate that only UK airlines may serve UK airports with UK based aircraft? So where to draw the line - how about the airlines from all over the world that operate into the UK? Does it make a difference if the aircraft is overnighting in the UK or just being turned around?
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rob39,
Van Air's AOC, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been suspended, indeed from what I've been reading the Czech authority don't really seem to care that one of their operators goes around trying to kill people!
If you read back in this thread what appears to have happened was they departed IOM destination BHD where the wind, at a minimum mean speed of 20kts, was 80 to 90 degrees, pretty much, straight across the runway in rain showers and, by all accounts, with it's narrow undercarriage the L410's x-wind limitations ain't all that.
Other(s) were diverting to BFS, other alternates, with better runway directions, such as PIK and Machrihanish were available but Van Air attempted at least one approach in to BHD during which they bounced off the runway before electing to return to IOM where, by then, the wind was 40 degrees off the runway, in rain showers, with a mean speed of 42kts and gusts of 56kts.
For reasons that I haven't read an explanation of, it would appear that UK CAA were present at IOM, perhaps in the tower, when the L410 landed, the wind was too strong even for it to taxi, the CAA insisted that it shut down and stay on the runway where apparently a fire truck or two were parked adjacent to shield the wings from the wind.
Then or later the UK CAA decided that Van Air are not to darken their skies again and have withdrawn their authority to operate in UK, the CAA don't normally take such action for a one-off offence and there remains the question what were the CAA doing in the IOM in the first instance!
Van Air's AOC, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been suspended, indeed from what I've been reading the Czech authority don't really seem to care that one of their operators goes around trying to kill people!
If you read back in this thread what appears to have happened was they departed IOM destination BHD where the wind, at a minimum mean speed of 20kts, was 80 to 90 degrees, pretty much, straight across the runway in rain showers and, by all accounts, with it's narrow undercarriage the L410's x-wind limitations ain't all that.
Other(s) were diverting to BFS, other alternates, with better runway directions, such as PIK and Machrihanish were available but Van Air attempted at least one approach in to BHD during which they bounced off the runway before electing to return to IOM where, by then, the wind was 40 degrees off the runway, in rain showers, with a mean speed of 42kts and gusts of 56kts.
For reasons that I haven't read an explanation of, it would appear that UK CAA were present at IOM, perhaps in the tower, when the L410 landed, the wind was too strong even for it to taxi, the CAA insisted that it shut down and stay on the runway where apparently a fire truck or two were parked adjacent to shield the wings from the wind.
Then or later the UK CAA decided that Van Air are not to darken their skies again and have withdrawn their authority to operate in UK, the CAA don't normally take such action for a one-off offence and there remains the question what were the CAA doing in the IOM in the first instance!
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you advocate that only UK airlines may serve UK airports with UK based aircraft?
I'm a Brit and as well as working for operators in England, Scotland and Wales I have also worked for operators in Australia, Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands whilst these days I have my own business in the Philippines.
I'm don't have the island mentality that UK is famous for, let's not even get in to Brexit
, by all means let European operators work UK airports but regulators are for a specific purpose, to REGULATE, the Spanish authorities failed to regulate that Spanish operator that killed people in ORK and it seems the Czech authorities are failing to regulate Van Air bouncing off runways in Ireland etc.What would you do if you were a UK CAA regulator, allow them to continue or kick their butt?
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Van Air operated a PSO route from CWL to VLY. You can insert quality weighting into the tender competition but you have to accept any airline with an EASA licence is qualified to submit a tender.
The problem I have is that a UK devolved government can put their citizens at risk because they are forced to award the contract to an operator from another European country who may not be prepared to provide adequate regulation in the U.K.
The problem I have is that a UK devolved government can put their citizens at risk because they are forced to award the contract to an operator from another European country who may not be prepared to provide adequate regulation in the U.K.
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virginblue,
There was a video that I viewed on youtube some time back "stalled in the sky pilot error", it appears to have been removed now for copyright infringement, but it was an eye opener, I recognised the traits of many a cargo flight crew member that I previously worked with, and in this instance it resulted in a tragic loss of lives.
The programme was about a turboprop, I think a Q400, operating from, I think, Newark (EWR) on a late afternoon or evening departure.
Both pilots were based in EWR yet the Captain lived in Florida, he would commute but was too tight to pay for accommodation, he would occupy nights in the crew room whilst the first officer lived on the west coast, she wouldn't pay for commercial flights and occupied her pre-flight rest period jumpseating on freighters across the USA.
Both pilots were fatigued as a result of their greed and the CVR of that flight demonstrated just how many mistakes they were making as a result and ultimately they made wrong decisions that resulted in them stalling the aircraft killing all on board ... and all because they wouldn't pay for a hotel and/or a flight.
In the report of that ORK flight I read that the first officer had completed his LPC/OPC, I can't recall if he carried out the mandatory number of circuits and bumps, but he didn't undertake any mandatory line training or a final line check whilst the Captain of that flight was low houred whilst there had been a problem during his command upgrade training and he was, at the time of the crash and his death, only a recently upgraded Captain.
A recipe for disaster, a rookie Captain and a fatigued and untrained first officer deprived of rest periods and days off that, like the EWR incident, resulted in the death of some of us fare paying folk.
Do you defend such operating practices?
There was a video that I viewed on youtube some time back "stalled in the sky pilot error", it appears to have been removed now for copyright infringement, but it was an eye opener, I recognised the traits of many a cargo flight crew member that I previously worked with, and in this instance it resulted in a tragic loss of lives.
The programme was about a turboprop, I think a Q400, operating from, I think, Newark (EWR) on a late afternoon or evening departure.
Both pilots were based in EWR yet the Captain lived in Florida, he would commute but was too tight to pay for accommodation, he would occupy nights in the crew room whilst the first officer lived on the west coast, she wouldn't pay for commercial flights and occupied her pre-flight rest period jumpseating on freighters across the USA.
Both pilots were fatigued as a result of their greed and the CVR of that flight demonstrated just how many mistakes they were making as a result and ultimately they made wrong decisions that resulted in them stalling the aircraft killing all on board ... and all because they wouldn't pay for a hotel and/or a flight.
In the report of that ORK flight I read that the first officer had completed his LPC/OPC, I can't recall if he carried out the mandatory number of circuits and bumps, but he didn't undertake any mandatory line training or a final line check whilst the Captain of that flight was low houred whilst there had been a problem during his command upgrade training and he was, at the time of the crash and his death, only a recently upgraded Captain.
A recipe for disaster, a rookie Captain and a fatigued and untrained first officer deprived of rest periods and days off that, like the EWR incident, resulted in the death of some of us fare paying folk.
Do you defend such operating practices?
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This isn't a criticism of the standards of the Czech CAA. I am trying to identify the problem of regulation of an operator with routes not within their home country. It maybe that it was always the responsibility of the CAA in the country of operation and national authorities have only just woken up to this.
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how about Smartwings? Travelservice?
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So Harry, is the problem with Van Air
1) they are a very small airline?
2) they ran a remote operation?
3) commercial pressure from the ticket seller?
1) they are a very small airline?
2) they ran a remote operation?
3) commercial pressure from the ticket seller?
Size of airline has little significance, size of aircraft operated does tend to have a significance, a previous colleague of mine referred to small aircraft as 'Airfix kits' ... he had a point.
Remote operation, if that remote operation hasn't been regulated by their Czech authority then that is the fault of the authority and not the operator ... Do you recall when you may have gone in to a pub and ordered a beer aged 16 or 17 ... If nobody asks to see your ID is that your fault?
Every operator has a commercial department whether they be in-house, a tour operator or a ticket seller. I have no idea what may have gone on but, as an example, Royal Mail contracts, if a flight operates late then financial penalties apply to the point if it gets so late it is more financially viable to cancel, is that commercial pressure?
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Both pilots were fatigued as a result of their greed and the CVR of that flight demonstrated just how many mistakes they were making as a result and ultimately they made wrong decisions that resulted in them stalling the aircraft killing all on board ... and all because they wouldn't pay for a hotel and/or a flight.
The crash was indeed caused by fatigue, but also very poor training at the operating airline, Colgan Air. The captain in particular had a very chequered training record.
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GREED?! Utter nonsense! The FO was on $16,000 a year, the Captain around $40,000.
Did they explain to the passengers, that they killed, before departure "Excuse us but we are too tired to safely operate this flight but you are welcome to take your chances with us should you choose to do so"?
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Oh well, it was usually cheaper to do GLA-LCY-IOM anyway.......
"10 March 2017
Citywing statement
As a result of Van Air losing their route licenses on Friday 24th February 2017, the company has found it difficult to source suitable viable aircraft to fulfil our contracts. The company has tried to offer a service whilst suffering considerable losses but these have proved unfortunately to be commercially unsustainable.
It is therefore with much sadness and deep regret that the Directors of Citywing Aviation Services Limited have had to take the difficult decision to close the company today and put the company into liquidation. This decision has not been taken lightly and has been made to protect creditors.
Flights on 11th March 2017 onwards have all been cancelled
We request that you do not turn up at the airports for your flights as there will be no one to assist.
A liquidator will be appointed and they will advise in due course on how to get a refund on your tickets.
There will also be guidance on the UK CAA website from Monday 13th March 2017.
https://www.caa.co.uk/home/
For those passengers on the Cardiff to Anglesey service, we have been advised that your Citywing tickets will be valid on train services out of Cardiff, and from stations between Bangor and Holyhead.
On behalf of all at Citywing, we all apologise for the inconvenience caused and thank you all for your support over the last 4 years.
The Directors
Citywing Aviation Services Limited"
"10 March 2017
Citywing statement
As a result of Van Air losing their route licenses on Friday 24th February 2017, the company has found it difficult to source suitable viable aircraft to fulfil our contracts. The company has tried to offer a service whilst suffering considerable losses but these have proved unfortunately to be commercially unsustainable.
It is therefore with much sadness and deep regret that the Directors of Citywing Aviation Services Limited have had to take the difficult decision to close the company today and put the company into liquidation. This decision has not been taken lightly and has been made to protect creditors.
Flights on 11th March 2017 onwards have all been cancelled
We request that you do not turn up at the airports for your flights as there will be no one to assist.
A liquidator will be appointed and they will advise in due course on how to get a refund on your tickets.
There will also be guidance on the UK CAA website from Monday 13th March 2017.
https://www.caa.co.uk/home/
For those passengers on the Cardiff to Anglesey service, we have been advised that your Citywing tickets will be valid on train services out of Cardiff, and from stations between Bangor and Holyhead.
On behalf of all at Citywing, we all apologise for the inconvenience caused and thank you all for your support over the last 4 years.
The Directors
Citywing Aviation Services Limited"
Well that's the end of that then! Good riddance to Citywing/Manx2. Good luck to anyone trying to get money back from them for booked flights, I'm not sure it will be the easiest of times for you. Great timing as well - Friday afternoon leaving a lot of people anxious over the weekend about what to do.
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I wonder if the notAirline ManxWing3 will appear.
The lesson appears to be that there genuinely is room in the market (probably the wider market too) for someone to set up an airline (as opposed to a ticket seller) to operate very small aircraft from a number of airports in the UK. I wonder if someone ever will!
And there are some genuine actual airlines (like TransAviaBaltika) that appear to be respectable operators of what's apparently the ideal aircraft for routes to IOM...
The lesson appears to be that there genuinely is room in the market (probably the wider market too) for someone to set up an airline (as opposed to a ticket seller) to operate very small aircraft from a number of airports in the UK. I wonder if someone ever will!
And there are some genuine actual airlines (like TransAviaBaltika) that appear to be respectable operators of what's apparently the ideal aircraft for routes to IOM...
Last edited by 01475; 10th Mar 2017 at 23:24.
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Something that occurs to me, on all of Citywing's routes, except one, it is their route and they sub-contract the flying to Van Air or whoever, I think I'm correct in this.
But on the CWL/VLY route it was a Welsh government stipulation that the route, the PSO, could only be awarded to an aircraft operator thus, I read, that the route was Van Air's and they sub-contracted the ticket selling to Citywing and, I think, these recent weeks, Van Air have been chartering North flying to operate the route upon their behalf.
So reading Citywing's press release who are they to call time on the CWL/VLY route when, supposedly and legally, it isn't their route to call time on?
But on the CWL/VLY route it was a Welsh government stipulation that the route, the PSO, could only be awarded to an aircraft operator thus, I read, that the route was Van Air's and they sub-contracted the ticket selling to Citywing and, I think, these recent weeks, Van Air have been chartering North flying to operate the route upon their behalf.
So reading Citywing's press release who are they to call time on the CWL/VLY route when, supposedly and legally, it isn't their route to call time on?