Citywing

[runway30]

EI, I think the problem with this business model is that there is neither operational or financial regulation of the ticket seller. They can use commercial pressure to put operational pressure on the operating airline which leads to unsafe operations. Clearly having companies that only take revenue risk and companies that only take operational risk can work, Inclusive Tour companies and Charter Airlines have been operating like that for years but if both parties are regulated it provides a restraint against one of the parties closing down if an incident occurs and reappearing the following day under another name.

[01475]

I kind of want to agree with you... but so much flying is done by people other than those that sell the tickets, and a lot of it not for two-bit carriers either (Alitalia and Carpathair spring to mind...).

Obviously there's a different if the ticket seller doesn't actually operate any flights at all, but how much of a difference? And how would you regulate the ticket seller to remove any perceived weaknesses?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Ryanair or Van Air, scale doesn't matter; both operate under the same category of AOC and both should be treated the same. But of course they won't be, since one has near-infinite funds to lawyer-up and the other just has to do as it's told.

El Bunto,
You seem to be suggesting that Van Air are being victimised, being bullied, simply because they don't have unlimited funds for lawyers to fight off such a case.


Excuse me but check the BHD weather actuals as posted on the previous page, the runway at BHD being 04/22, the best the winds were 20kts 80 degrees off the runway and the worst 46kts directly across the runway and in rain showers, from the crosswind limitations of the L410 I've read here I guess they departed IOM with an alternate that was within limits yet when push came to shove they didn't use that alternate!


The 'big boys', as well as the little ones, in UK just as an example, are regulated and regularly inspected by the appropriate authority, in this day and age operators have Quality Managers and the authority demand to see that systems are in place in the event of an irregularity taking place, in a way the operators are self regulating and the authority merely oversees that.


As a further example back in 89/90 there were a number of European operators operating domestic services in Australia, I can recall at least five UK operators of which, for one of them, I was managing their 2 x B737 operation.


As with Van Air in IOM and VLY, indeed in ESH with Brighton City Airways, they are operating away from their regulatory authority as we were in Australia but UK sent an inspector down to Australia to pay all us operators there a visit, when it came to our turn he telephoned me to give me notice, I met him at the airport, showed him around my office facility in my rented apartment before we went off to the local pub for dinner and a few beers.


On the other hand the UK authority find that they have something like a flying circus operating services around UK with seemingly no regulation, probably no Quality Manager in situ and I wonder if the Czech regulatory authority have ever been to IOM, VLY, ESH or wherever else these clowns may have been operating from and when they start bouncing aircraft off runways when other(s) are diverting I'd pull their ticket also.

I wouldn't blame them if they didn't come back.

And good riddance, they're bl00dy dangerous!

[davidjohnson6]

I guess a bigger question is what sort of balance the UK wants between regulation, local connectivity and entrepreneurs.
The big airlines need to be held to a very high standard. You can apply the same high standard to small operators - but the compliance cost usually makes the small operators go bankrupt one way or another. Furthermore entrepreneurs are discouraged by high regulatory costs. A major result is that places like Gloucester lose all scheduled service

Where does one draw the line, and which side of it is Citywing ?

[runway30]

I think the point Harry was making is that Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by 01475

I kind of want to agree with you... but so much flying is done by people other than those that sell the tickets, and a lot of it not for two-bit carriers either (Alitalia and Carpathair spring to mind...).

Obviously there's a different if the ticket seller doesn't actually operate any flights at all, but how much of a difference? And how would you regulate the ticket seller to remove any perceived weaknesses?

The difference in the case you cite is that both the marketing carrier and the operating carrier are real airlines, with real operational oversight subject to regulatory scrutiny. Citywing pretends to be an airline, in that if you go to their website and aren't familiar with the ins and outs of the business you'll think it's an airline.

How to regulate the ticket seller? I think that removing the loophole which allows ticket sellers for aircraft of 19 seats or less to be free of any CAA/ATOL oversight would be a good start. (That might also have saved the lives of the unfortunate passengers and crew who were killed in Citywing's previous incarnation Manx2, for which the accident report highlighted the extreme deficiencies in operational oversight on Manx2's part.)

[V12]

DJ6: "but the compliance cost usually makes the small operators go bankrupt one way or another."

You're right and that's right and fair.

I'd rather stay on the ground, or pay higher fares, than risk an operation that accepts marginality at every step. There's a reason why such operations exist on these little routes, but the travelling public cannot determine the difference.

Proper regulation should weed out the poor-compliers; it's not just survival of the fittest, it's survival of the safest. Who was looking out for the passengers interests on this flight?

It's a bummer when flights are grounded, especially if you just want to get home, but better to be on the ground wanting to be in the air, than in the air wishing you had never left the ground. Been there, done it, and never want to do it again.

[lfc84]

FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 28 and 29 FEBRUARY 2017
Citywing are now able to confirm flights details for Tuesday 28 and Wednesday 01March 2017.
We are currently updating our system so will try and contact passengers regarding flight changes once this is done.
Tuesday 28 February
Tuesday 28 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Saab 340 aircraft operated by Sprint Air at the following times:
V9 506 28 Feb departing Isle of Man at 1110 ( checkin 1010) arriving Belfast City 1145
V9 507 28 Feb departing Belfast City at 1210 (checkin 1110) arriving Isle of Man 1245
All passengers planned to go on other Belfast flights this day will be transferred onto the flight available.
Tuesday 28 February -Glasgow
The Glasgow flight will also be operated by the Sprintair Saab 340 :
V9 408 28 Feb departing Isle of Man 1500 (checkin 1400) arriving Glasgow 1540
V9 409 28 Feb departing Glasgow 1605 (checkin 1505) arriving Isle of Man 1655
All passengers planned to go on the morning Glasgow flights this day will be transferred onto the afternoon flight.
Tuesday 28 February – Gloucester
The Gloucester flight will similarly be operated by the Sprintair Saab 340 :
V9 610 28 Feb departing Isle of Man at 1725 (checkin 1625) arriving Gloucester at 1820 .
V9 611 28 Feb departing Gloucester at 1845 (checkin 1745) arriving Isle of Man 1940
All passengers planned to go on the morning Gloucester flights this day will be transferred onto the afternoon flight.
Tuesday 28 February – Blackpool
Unfortunately we have not been able to arrange any flights for Blackpool. All passengers will be rebooked onto the following day’s flight.
Wednesday 01 March
Wednesday 01 March -Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Saab 340 aircraft operated by Sprint Air at the following times:
V9 506 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1110 (checkin 1010) arriving Belfast City at 1145
V9 507 01 March departing Belfast City at 1210 ( checkin 1110 ) arriving at Isle of Man 1245
All passengers planned to go on other Belfast flights this day will be transferred onto the flight available.
Wednesday 01 March – Blackpool
Operated by Sprintair Saab 340
V9 116 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1540 ( checkin 1440) arriving at Blackpool 1610
V9 117 01 March departing Blackpool at 1635 (checkin 1535) arriving at Isle of Man at 1705
Wednesday 01 March – Gloucester
Operated by Sprintair Saab 340
V9 610 01 March departing Isle of Man at 1730 ( checkin 1630) arriving Gloucester at 1825
V9 611 01 March departing Gloucester at 1850 (checkin 1750) arriving at Isle of Man at 1940
Wednesday 01 March - Glasgow
Unfortunately we have not been able to arrange an aircraft for Glasgow and the flight will be cancelled.
These will be the only flights operated on these days. We will endeavour to contact all passengers to advise of them of these revised arrangements. For flights on the 2nd and 3rd of March we will put out our revised schedule soonest if required.
David Buck, Managing Director of Citywing said, “We apologise for the disruption this is causing to travel plans. We will do our best to keep passengers informed over the next few days. We know that the options available are far from ideal but we wanted to ensure where possible that we can provide an option for all passengers to reach their destinations. We are trying to contact all passengers but it is a huge task so we ask for your patience whilst we do so.”

[HeartyMeatballs]

They won't be missed. They won't have to be, as ManxWing will be along next week.

I heard NorthFlying on frequency last night so assumed they're doing the flying for them.

[AirGuru]

North Flying are doing CWL-VLY, with the Van Air LET parked on stand.

I hope this situation is resolved quickly, Citywing seems a bit of a sham of an operation itself and this loophole of having second rate 19 seat operators from the far reaches of Europe operating in the UK with seemingly unsafe operations is not something any of us should welcome.

The subsidy for the CWL-VLY is absolutely gigantic too ... Just saying. I'm sure Citywing/Van Air have made a killing out of the Welsh Government alone, nevermind elsewhere. Time to shut up shop.

[lfc84]

Titan reported as being tech but I read elsewhere that it has gone to STN

http://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/citywing-anguish-as-crisis-plans-awry/

[01475]

Doubt they can afford for this to last much longer; must be costing them a packet.

At risk of being too radical... I wonder if ManxWing3 should set up as an... airline? History seems to be saying that these routes can be viable, but that the weak link is them not having any aeroplanes with which to operate them?

[El Bunto]

I'm not sure that bashing the Czech CAA for being 'lax' is any better than bashing Van Air. Both fall under the jurisdiction of EASA.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-...czech-republic

Just like North Flying ( Denmark ) and Sprint Air ( Poland ) and, uh, Titan ( UK )...

Titan reported as being tech but I read elsewhere that it has gone to STN

Needed for the overnight mail runs as usual.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Who writes their FLIGHT UPDATES cr@P?

FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 28 and 29 FEBRUARY 2017

[rob39]

Real shame for the crew, I new some of the pilots and really nice guys, I did use their service on a few occasions for ferry flights, felt safe and secure at all times.
What was the exact reason for the licence to be suspended. Flew to Belfast could not land due to weather and return to the Isle??

[sealegs]

From Manx Radio - March 7
All options on table, says boss
The head of Citywing says all options are on the table after a week of disruption to flights to and from Ronaldsway.

Managing Director David Buck has apologised to passengers in the short term, and admitted it's time to think about the business model:

[Harry Wayfarers]

Real shame for the crew, I new some of the pilots and really nice guys, I did use their service on a few occasions for ferry flights, felt safe and secure at all times.
What was the exact reason for the licence to be suspended. Flew to Belfast could not land due to weather and return to the Isle??

rob39,

Van Air's AOC, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been suspended, indeed from what I've been reading the Czech authority don't really seem to care that one of their operators goes around trying to kill people!

If you read back in this thread what appears to have happened was they departed IOM destination BHD where the wind, at a minimum mean speed of 20kts, was 80 to 90 degrees, pretty much, straight across the runway in rain showers and, by all accounts, with it's narrow undercarriage the L410's x-wind limitations ain't all that.

Other(s) were diverting to BFS, other alternates, with better runway directions, such as PIK and Machrihanish were available but Van Air attempted at least one approach in to BHD during which they bounced off the runway before electing to return to IOM where, by then, the wind was 40 degrees off the runway, in rain showers, with a mean speed of 42kts and gusts of 56kts.

For reasons that I haven't read an explanation of, it would appear that UK CAA were present at IOM, perhaps in the tower, when the L410 landed, the wind was too strong even for it to taxi, the CAA insisted that it shut down and stay on the runway where apparently a fire truck or two were parked adjacent to shield the wings from the wind.

Then or later the UK CAA decided that Van Air are not to darken their skies again and have withdrawn their authority to operate in UK, the CAA don't normally take such action for a one-off offence and there remains the question what were the CAA doing in the IOM in the first instance!

[goldeneye]

Maybe some of these routes could be a target for the likes of Loganair or Eastern albeit with slightly larger aircraft.

Can see Glasgow and Belfast being a good fit with Loganair on something like GLA-IOM-BHD-IOM-GLA routing.

Not sure about Blackpool and Gloucestershire as seemed a bit of a niche operation.

[virginblue]

I think the point Harry was making is that Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines.

The quote below is directly lifted from the CAA website:

Within Europe much of the safety regulations are set by a European Commission body called the European Aviation Safety Agency. This means there is a common set of requirements across Europe on areas like pilot licensing and aircraft type approvals. National regulators, such as the UK CAA, then use those requirements to regulate civil aviation in their country.

As you have repeatedly insisted that "Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines", could you please elaborate on how that this could possibly be the case? The whole idea of the intra-EU open skies policy is that you have harmonization of the regulatory framework.

And with regard to crappy Eastern European regulation, I assume you also call for Wizzair, Czech Air etc. to be banned from the UK as well?

[Harry Wayfarers]

As you have repeatedly insisted that "Czech airlines are not being regulated to the same standard as U.K. airlines", could you please elaborate on how that this could possibly be the case?

virginblue,

As an example, and as I previously posted, back in 89/90 when a number of us UK operators were detached to Australia the UK CAA took life so seriously they sent an operations inspector down to check that "whilst the cat is away the mice may play" wasn't taking placer.

In another of my previous lives I worked for an Guyana AOC'd cargo operator, sure the Guyana CAA had regulations but they never sent an inspector out to establish if we were playing by the rules thus we totally disregarded the rules busting so many regulations it wasn't true.

So Van Air have been operating out of Fraggle Rock, a military air base on the remote island of Angelsey and a seaside landing strip near Brighton, pray tell us what the actions EASA and/or the Czech authority have been taking to ensure that these operations have been operated in accordance with the regulations thus ensuring passenger safety?

Or have they been doing diddly squat much as EASA and the Spanish authority did diddly squat prior to Citywing's ORK fatal incident?