BA exit LGW

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "So why doesnt IAG do to BA what it did to Iberia? ie. Iberia run long haul and Iberia express run short haul ? After all it was the BACityflyer business model they used to set up Iberia Express, so whats good for the madrid end of the business will probably work at the London end as well, sure the London end will scream and shout just like the Madrid end is doing, but I am sure IAG will quell the dissenting voices."

They had the opportunity to do just that, marlowe, it was called BD ("British Midland"). Returning BD to its original short haul role and running BA and BD as two stand alone airlines was a possibility but they went down the road of integration.

Quote: "The fact is, that BA doesn't have, and won't ever have the slots at LHR to move its routes from LGW over. The BD slots are needed for new routes and increases frequencies on important routes. LGW serves its purpose as a primarily leisure based operation".

Certainly without LHR expansion, BA (and VS) will be at LGW forever, johnrizzo2000, there's also a question of adequate terminal capacity. Despite LHR-5, BA have still been in 2 terminals at LHR and are now in 3!

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by marlowe

So why doesnt IAG do to BA what it did to Iberia? ie. Iberia run long haul and Iberia express run short haul ? After all it was the BACityflyer business model they used to set up Iberia Express

Err...

BA Cityflyer: essentally the BA shorthaul product
Iberia Express: essentially the Iberia shorthaul product

BA Cityflyer: smaller aircraft than mainline
Iberia Express: same size aircraft as mainline

BA Cityflyer: different airport to mainline hub
Iberia Express: same airport as mainline hub

BA Cityflyer: essentially all point-to-point
Iberia Express: feeding the mainline hub

BA Cityflyer: formed to defend high-yield market
Iberia Express: formed to reduce feeder costs because there is a negotiated limit on how much capacity Vueling can operate with an IB code share


Not having a go, but IB Express doesn't look much like BA Cityflyer to me - are there other aspects of the business model that are closer, that I'm missing?

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

I've heard on the grapevine that BA have told the TRMs and loaders at LGW that it's curtains for them, all being outsourced! Hope it's not true. If circus air around the regions are anything to go by, standby for total and utter chaos!

[The96er]

I've heard on the grapevine that BA have told the TRMs and loaders at LGW that it's curtains for them, all being outsourced! Hope it's not true. If circus air around the regions are anything to go by, standby for total and utter chaos!

All true, however, how do you surmise that the performance by Servisair (soon to be Menzies) and Aviance before them are somehow inferior to BA ? Weather you like it or not, the turn around performance of handling agents on the BA product is far superior to that of BA's own staff.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Very sad news, professionals that knew how to talk to passengers like human beings are canned for the likes of those at one north western, and one Scottish airport in particular that talk to pax like they are scum, dredged from the bottom of a pond. I have never waited at LHR or LGW for FEGP to be fitted. At both of the others I regularly travel to, I have experienced a 20 min delay! With engines still running.

Circusair/Menzies with a superior product?? On yer bike chap! the central load control at Manchester can't even sort themselves out. No hope at all. No doubt some qudos for those staff who get to wear a BA name badge and pretend they are the real deal, but if you pay peanuts, you hardly get monkeys these days.
And that is my experience as pax and being sat in the front office. Some staff are great and know their jobs inside out. But they tend to have been in the industry a long time. These companies just don't train their staff to an acceptable enougth level. They always need an adult to sort out their problems. I don't really blame them, I blame the management and training regime for failing them.

Anyways back to the original thread points. Perhaps this finally goes to show the curtains are being drawn for the SH@G fleet.

[The96er]

I have never waited at LHR or LGW for FEGP to be fitted. At both of the others I regularly travel to, I have experienced a 20 min delay! With engines still running.

So no issues at LHR/LGW then, not what the BA own crews say, most say it's more efficient outside of London.

the central load control at Manchester can't even sort themselves out.

That's a contract between BA Cityflyer and Servisair. Mainline do their own Central load control.

Some staff are great and know their jobs inside out. But they tend to have been in the industry a long time. These companies just don't train their staff to an acceptable enougth level. They always need an adult to sort out their problems. I don't really blame them, I blame the management and training regime for failing them.

Now that I'll agree with

[BOBBLEHAT]

Wasn't it part of the BMI takeover conditions that a proportion of the LHR BMI slots had to be used for domestic purposes? That would explain a move from LGW for some services......

[Omnipresent]

Wasn't it part of the BMI takeover conditions that a proportion of the LHR BMI slots had to be used for domestic purposes? That would explain a move from LGW for some services......

No. IAG has to make available slots to entrants who want to operate certain domestic (and other) routes where competition has been reduced (ABZ, EDI etc) but in terms of the slots BA gets it is free to do what it wants with them. However, Keith Williams has said the optimum use of slots is 1/3 long-haul and 2/3 short-haul so there is a lot of extra short-haul capacity to fill at LHR.

[marlowe]

Cyrano all i can say is that was what the BAcityflyer CC were told .

[Skipness One Echo]

All true, however, how do you surmise that the performance by Servisair (soon to be Menzies) and Aviance before them are somehow inferior to BA ?

Corporate memory. When I flew GLA-LHR with BA in the 90s, BA handled their own flights at Glasgow with staff who had been there for years, had some discretion, were allowed to exercise judgement in certains matters and were somewhat older than today.
Nowadays we get minimum wage from Servisair and Menzies who joined the race to the bottom of ts and cs for aviation ground staff. I wouldn't get out of bed for what they pay their people, indeed some pay about the same as Tesco. Hence turnover is brutally high and there is little customer care. Meet turnaround targets and bid a lower price in the next tender is all that matters. BA were far from perfect but at least the staff appeared to care about their company, not quite something to be found at Servisair and Menzies.

I wonder whether this is UK specific as handlers in Europe seem to be a little more, switched on shall we say?

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by marlowe

Cyrano all i can say is that was what the BAcityflyer CC were told .

That's fair enough - many thanks for clarifying. I'm still a bit perplexed all the same.

[johnrizzo2000]

From my own experience, outsourced ground handling is never as good as I house. There is no loyalty to the airline and often very little knowledge of policy etc. It can be a case of "I work for circus air, not BA!". Now this isn't always the case, but unfortunately it happens a lot.

As mentioned already, BAs operation in LHR is already split across LHR with the BD acquisition. Moving a significant amount of LGWs flight to LHR would be a logistical mess.

As it has been said, that LGW is loss making, over and over again, they obviously need to do something. Outsourcing a lot of the ground will cut costs, but I think they also need to focus on their strong points; long haul leisure

[frontcheck]

Nice attitude Skipness, it is just as well some people get out of bed for the wage offered by handling agents or the flights would not go anywhere!
And lets be honest about it ,BA are more than happy to save costs and therefore assume also happy with the service being offered.

[davidjohnson6]

This is probably a naive question but the last time I looked, BA shorthaul from Gatwick seemed to be more expensive than Easyjet for comparable flights. If revenue is higher but profit tudns into loss, the obvious conclusion is that BA has higher costs at LGW than Easyjet.

Granted Easy has more aircraft at Gatwick than BA so benefits from scale but what are the big extra costs that causes BA shorthaul to lose money.
Wages ? Old aircraft burning more fuel ? Longer turnaround ? Not imposing baggage charges ? Something else ? I'm sure everything contributes but am interested to know which are the major factors and not just minor

Are there any things that BA can do to make themselves nearly on a par in terms of costs ?

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

This is probably a naive question but the last time I looked, BA shorthaul from Gatwick seemed to be more expensive than Easyjet for comparable flights. If revenue is higher but profit tudns into loss, the obvious conclusion is that BA has higher costs at LGW than Easyjet.

Granted Easy has more aircraft at Gatwick than BA so benefits from scale but what are the big extra costs that causes BA shorthaul to lose money.
Wages ? Old aircraft burning more fuel ? Longer turnaround ? Not imposing baggage charges ? Something else ? I'm sure everything contributes but am interested to know which are the major factors and not just minor

Are there any things that BA can do to make themselves nearly on a par in terms of costs ?

Yes......become EZY or FR and all that goes with it. It appears that most punters these days don't care how they are treated or travel. It is there right to have a cheap flight, and the government should ensure it. Who gives a toss about service these days. MOL is very rich as a result.

[The96er]

Skipness, there may be some merit to what you say, particularly regards using judgement, however, in today's game, I'm afraid it's all about 'On Time Performance' with regards handling agents (which is superior to that of BA's btw) and very little else as every 1min delay is followed by finger pointing/apportioning blame/penalty clauses/writing reports etc, so unfortunately customer service usually takes second place either intentionally or not.

[Skipness One Echo]

This is probably a naive question but the last time I looked, BA shorthaul from Gatwick seemed to be more expensive than Easyjet for comparable flights.

Oddly enough I find the opposite, you can get some silly cheap fares on BA. I rather think BA just use easyJet as they're assumed to be cheaper. This allows EZY to earn a good margin at Gatwick.

[johnnychips]

Pardon my ignorance, but which domestic or Irish airports does BA LGW 'hub' with, either directly or by codeshares? Last Oct I went MAN-LGW-NAP and it was excellent. But I believe the MAN-LGW flights have now been reduced.

[JSCL]

Pardon my ignorance, but which domestic or Irish airports does BA LGW 'hub' with, either directly or by codeshares? Last Oct I went MAN-LGW-NAP and it was excellent. But I believe the MAN-LGW flights have now been reduced.

Oh, definitely no doubt over the LGW ops, I think for a domestic transfer it's easier than going to LHR from experience. I tend to use LGW when going to PRN which is a MAN>LGW>PRN leg and the timings are well matched.

Routes wise from LGW, using the untrusted source of Wiki:

Edinburgh, Glasgow Intl, Jersey, and Manchester. That lack of domestic routes makes it rather apparent that LGW isn't designed as a hub airport for BA.

[Omnipresent]

easyJet is often more expensive than BA at LGW, and easyJet has the benefit of marginal in-flight revenues from catering that BA doesn't.

BA's problem at LGW is largely one of revenue not cost. And competing against easyJet isn't simply an issue of price. easyJet pax I talk to, on the whole, like the easyJet service and experience. And easyJet's marketing and branding has really sharpened up over the past year. The "Where are you going?" campaign was much more inviting and aspirational than easyJet's historical marketing.