SOUTHEND - 3 The new beginning
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it is likely that in 5 years time Southend airport might ask the relevant Govt body to permit more than 2 million passengers per year.
A Terminal that takes minutes to pass though will be a thing of the past due to shear numbers of passengers passing through it and then Southend will become a mini Luton.
Luton’s “new” terminal was meant to have a capacity of 5 million but it has already handled twice that number. Sobart will cram in every passenger he can to increase profits because that is what companies do.
The reality is that some posters are by nature pro-SEN and others are anti-SEN, but both should surely try to restrict themselves to the facts of the matter under discussion.
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RESA's and runway strips
I'm well aware of the dimensions of the runway at SEN. To have an extended displaced threshold on rwy24 gives a corresponding safety net to aircraft using rwy06 with an effective RESA approaching 250m past the LDA. However, much as RESA's mitigate the consequences of long landings, I'd rather have a long landing or aborted take-off on a runway that doesn't have an earth berm at the end of it.
The RESA on rwy06 at SEN far exceeds the minimum distance required by ICAO but at the same time the church infringes the ICAO mandated runway strip - so what safety benefits you might derive from a long RESA will be of no use during a runway excursion towards the church.
As for being anti-SEN I've said it before - I'm pro-SEN. I just believe the airport, the local community and the users would have benefited from the owners developing SEN into a multi use airport (mx, training, bizjets and scheduled) rather than concentrating on orange A319's. Maybe they still will but right now I can't see it.
The RESA on rwy06 at SEN far exceeds the minimum distance required by ICAO but at the same time the church infringes the ICAO mandated runway strip - so what safety benefits you might derive from a long RESA will be of no use during a runway excursion towards the church.
As for being anti-SEN I've said it before - I'm pro-SEN. I just believe the airport, the local community and the users would have benefited from the owners developing SEN into a multi use airport (mx, training, bizjets and scheduled) rather than concentrating on orange A319's. Maybe they still will but right now I can't see it.
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I would say that it is lucky that this Britannia Airways aircraft didn't land at Southend that day. Safety zones are there for a reason and this is the reason.
The aircraft came to rest 171 metres right of the runway centreline. The Church is 94m from the runway centreline. Does anyone think that if that aircraft hit the church Southend would be allowed to stay open?
Last edited by LTNman; 18th Nov 2012 at 15:53.
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I could have added that another complicatng factor at SEN is the gen avn traffic in the circuit when Easyjet perform overhead arrivals when the SSR is u/s
Southend operated entirely without SSR until fairly recently.
NS
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Expressflight: LTNMan can I'm sure speak for himself, but it seems to me you're comparing apples and oranges. SEN does have significant RESAs, and these do indeed exceed the end-of-runway overruns at many airports. But LTNMan's dramatic photo illustrates an aircraft going off the side of the runway, into the Runway Strip. It's this that is infringed by the church at SEN. SEN have done an extremely effective job in persuading the CAA that the infringement should be accepted, and I take my hat off to them and to the CAA for devising a method of accepting the infringement. Operators have to specifically accept the impact of the church infringement on their operations and to plan accordingly. The CAA will no doubt have assessed and approved what the Ops Manuals for EZY and any other UK operators into SEN say about the effects of the church. I'm guessing this will consist largely of more stringent limits on ops on a wet runway in a crosswind.
I'd also note that even a Code 4 runway (SEN is Code 3) has a Runway Strip width of 150m either side of the centreline. So LTNMan's Britannia accident wasn't even catered for at an airport with the Runway Strip entirely uninfringed. It would be regarded as an extremely rare accident and one that is effectively discounted as far as CAP 168 compliance is concerned.
NS
I'd also note that even a Code 4 runway (SEN is Code 3) has a Runway Strip width of 150m either side of the centreline. So LTNMan's Britannia accident wasn't even catered for at an airport with the Runway Strip entirely uninfringed. It would be regarded as an extremely rare accident and one that is effectively discounted as far as CAP 168 compliance is concerned.
NS
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Runway excursions
Runway excursions remain the the most common type of accident reported and whereas other types of accident rates see year on year improvements, runway excursions have remained at the same rate over the past 30 years or more.
Landing overruns and veer-offs account for three quarters of all runway excursion accidents.
The berm and the church are hazards that will adversely affect an aircraft during a runway excursion, especially an overrun on 06 or a veer-off on either runway.
This said, my initial post was to point out that despite the hazards, any operator flying in to SEN will have taken account of them and amended their SOP's accordingly.
Landing overruns and veer-offs account for three quarters of all runway excursion accidents.
The berm and the church are hazards that will adversely affect an aircraft during a runway excursion, especially an overrun on 06 or a veer-off on either runway.
This said, my initial post was to point out that despite the hazards, any operator flying in to SEN will have taken account of them and amended their SOP's accordingly.
Cool Mod
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Better get this thread back on track. Idle chit chat is just that and will get deleted. If you have nothing to say about the airport other than past, churches, railways withot consequence just don't post.
The thread going down the tubes. Get some interest back please or I will give the thread a long rest.
Your Choice.
The thread going down the tubes. Get some interest back please or I will give the thread a long rest.
Your Choice.
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I thought the last few posts were really interesting but what do I know. It's back to talking just about easyjet I guess but I can't think of anything to say about them that hasn't already been said so I will leave here for a while.
Thank you Moderator for putting us back on track
Thank you Moderator for putting us back on track
Last edited by Pain in the R's; 18th Nov 2012 at 18:52.
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Back on topic
I too thought the last posts were informative and relevant but I guess safety at a London airport isn't newsworthy. HOWEVER - this article lifted from the Independent is. The owners at SEN are raising cash - maybe to invest in the airport which is definitely GOOD NEWS FOR SEN.
So now along with the advent calendar, cut-out clock and toy lorry you can get an Eddie Stobart bond paying 5.5 per cent! That'll go down well in the haulier's souvenir shop. The launch of said bond, aimed directly at retail investors, is serendipitous: it came on the same day inflation figures provided a nasty shock with the consumer prices index at an unexpectedly high 2.7 per cent.
That means, according to Moneysupermarket, basic rate taxpayers need a savings account paying at least 3.39 per cent to stay ahead of inflation, higher-rate payers need 4.51 per cent. Roll up, roll up, get yer Eddie bonds here!
Of course, the trouble with these bonds is that they aren't savings accounts. Or even savings bonds that lock people in for a certain amount of time with the carrot of a better interest rate.
They are securities carrying significant risk. Caveat emptor – buyer beware– applies. If interest rates go up to the level where 5.5 per cent looks unattractive, unlikely right now but not impossible, that's tough. You can sell the bond, but you'll lose money by doing so.
And if the company goes bust? Bye bye savings.
There are a number of businesses which have tapped the retail bond markets as a means of raising capital, Tesco Bank being a good example. It's backed by a blue-chip business with a jealously guarded reputation.
Eddie Stobart Group is a somewhat different beast. Oh, it makes money, survived the worst of the downturn intact, and has a pretty good market position. But its governance isn't exactly best of breed. Then there's the recent sale of property to the business owned by a company connected to its chief executive, Andrew Tinkler, which has attracted negative comment from Pirc, the governance watchdog.
That's an issue for shareholders, rather than bondholders, who don't get a vote on that sort of thing because they get paid before shareholders if things get nasty. But bond investors can't afford to ignore it. It's certainly worth asking whether institutional investors would be willing to buy into a bond backed by the haulage group at 5.5 per cent right now. I have my doubts.
The retail bond market, set up by the London Stock Exchange, is generally quite a good thing. It should work for the punter, who gets a better rate of return than they might find elsewhere as long as they are willing to sit tight for five or more years and are aware of the risks they are taking. It works for companies, providing a source of capital at what could be a more competitive rate than from institutions.
But what if something goes wrong? What if Mr and Mrs Miggins lose their savings and there's a furore as a result?
I'm not saying that will happen with the Stobart security. It may work perfectly well. But am I alone in feeling slightly uncomfortable about a less than blue-chip company with questionable governance using a brand puffed up by reality tv shows, souvenir shops and gaudily daubed trucks to be touting for people's savings like this?
That means, according to Moneysupermarket, basic rate taxpayers need a savings account paying at least 3.39 per cent to stay ahead of inflation, higher-rate payers need 4.51 per cent. Roll up, roll up, get yer Eddie bonds here!
Of course, the trouble with these bonds is that they aren't savings accounts. Or even savings bonds that lock people in for a certain amount of time with the carrot of a better interest rate.
They are securities carrying significant risk. Caveat emptor – buyer beware– applies. If interest rates go up to the level where 5.5 per cent looks unattractive, unlikely right now but not impossible, that's tough. You can sell the bond, but you'll lose money by doing so.
And if the company goes bust? Bye bye savings.
There are a number of businesses which have tapped the retail bond markets as a means of raising capital, Tesco Bank being a good example. It's backed by a blue-chip business with a jealously guarded reputation.
Eddie Stobart Group is a somewhat different beast. Oh, it makes money, survived the worst of the downturn intact, and has a pretty good market position. But its governance isn't exactly best of breed. Then there's the recent sale of property to the business owned by a company connected to its chief executive, Andrew Tinkler, which has attracted negative comment from Pirc, the governance watchdog.
That's an issue for shareholders, rather than bondholders, who don't get a vote on that sort of thing because they get paid before shareholders if things get nasty. But bond investors can't afford to ignore it. It's certainly worth asking whether institutional investors would be willing to buy into a bond backed by the haulage group at 5.5 per cent right now. I have my doubts.
The retail bond market, set up by the London Stock Exchange, is generally quite a good thing. It should work for the punter, who gets a better rate of return than they might find elsewhere as long as they are willing to sit tight for five or more years and are aware of the risks they are taking. It works for companies, providing a source of capital at what could be a more competitive rate than from institutions.
But what if something goes wrong? What if Mr and Mrs Miggins lose their savings and there's a furore as a result?
I'm not saying that will happen with the Stobart security. It may work perfectly well. But am I alone in feeling slightly uncomfortable about a less than blue-chip company with questionable governance using a brand puffed up by reality tv shows, souvenir shops and gaudily daubed trucks to be touting for people's savings like this?
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The rules as written by the mod which we all need to follow except I thought we were following them to be honest.
I will head west for now as I don't want to see this thread shut down because of anything I might say in error.
I will head west for now as I don't want to see this thread shut down because of anything I might say in error.
Just recently, actually for a few months now, the quality of posts and their content has gone downhill. By that we mean that some threads are being used for chats and questions suited only for the Spotters forum. There has also been a general level of daft and sometimes plainly stupid questions and observations.
We mods often filter out posts which are ridiculous and pointless, but somehow those responsible for them do not seem to grasp the logic of this forum's title and continue making crass posts. Lately, the number of posts being moderated, deleted or removed has risen to silly levels. This has got to stop.
A number of people have been banned in recent weeks for abuse and all manner of rule breaking and this will continue. For the latter go read what the rules are it will make interesting reading for many of you who seem to think that you are above them - you are not.
This forum is for posting interesting events at Airports including the development of and therein. It's also for relating that which is of interest in regard to Airlines at airports - the scope is wide but it should not be overstated. And lastly, it is for posting information of interest in regard to routes but NOT for advertising routes or procedures.
Finally, it is intended that it be ever professional. PPRuNe has a wealth of talent which is freely available from the Flight Deck and Cabin, thru operations and airline infrastructure. It is this that is of interest to the airline fraternity and those with a genuine interest in how it all works.
So, if you fit the above you are welcome. If, however, you fit into the category of a Walter Mitty or someone who thinks they know how to run an airline or airport better than those who can and do, you have our permission to go away to find another site where you fit right in. You will no longer be welcome here.
This moderating we do is for fun and we do have a wealth of experience between us, one is currently a Captain with a UK airline for example, but fun is not fun if we have to deal with idiotic posts or those people who have no idea how to debate a subject or those who can only emphasize their point by SHOUTING or giving abuse, naming people and slagging them off. It is off limits and always will be.
Its up to you now. We will show little tolerance so don't bother to contact us if your post has been removed.
Remember too, that there are far too many spotters question on this forum. You MUST address such questions to that forum. If you don't they will be removed.
It might also surprise you that we are also here to help if we can.
The mods
We mods often filter out posts which are ridiculous and pointless, but somehow those responsible for them do not seem to grasp the logic of this forum's title and continue making crass posts. Lately, the number of posts being moderated, deleted or removed has risen to silly levels. This has got to stop.
A number of people have been banned in recent weeks for abuse and all manner of rule breaking and this will continue. For the latter go read what the rules are it will make interesting reading for many of you who seem to think that you are above them - you are not.
This forum is for posting interesting events at Airports including the development of and therein. It's also for relating that which is of interest in regard to Airlines at airports - the scope is wide but it should not be overstated. And lastly, it is for posting information of interest in regard to routes but NOT for advertising routes or procedures.
Finally, it is intended that it be ever professional. PPRuNe has a wealth of talent which is freely available from the Flight Deck and Cabin, thru operations and airline infrastructure. It is this that is of interest to the airline fraternity and those with a genuine interest in how it all works.
So, if you fit the above you are welcome. If, however, you fit into the category of a Walter Mitty or someone who thinks they know how to run an airline or airport better than those who can and do, you have our permission to go away to find another site where you fit right in. You will no longer be welcome here.
This moderating we do is for fun and we do have a wealth of experience between us, one is currently a Captain with a UK airline for example, but fun is not fun if we have to deal with idiotic posts or those people who have no idea how to debate a subject or those who can only emphasize their point by SHOUTING or giving abuse, naming people and slagging them off. It is off limits and always will be.
Its up to you now. We will show little tolerance so don't bother to contact us if your post has been removed.
Remember too, that there are far too many spotters question on this forum. You MUST address such questions to that forum. If you don't they will be removed.
It might also surprise you that we are also here to help if we can.
The mods
Last edited by LTNman; 18th Nov 2012 at 19:16.
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If you have nothing to say about the airport other than past, churches, railways withot consequence just don't post
NS
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Final post here for a while but he is the mod so he can say and do what he likes. If anyone doesn't like it then tough! If his comments defies logic then tough! I would recommend to everyone not to question this as he takes no prisoners.
Bye for now, see you over at the Luton thread.
Bye for now, see you over at the Luton thread.
Last edited by LTNman; 18th Nov 2012 at 19:37.
Cool Mod
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OK, let us get down to nitty gritty. Mods are not paid to mod threads and there are fewer mods to do so anyway. This is not an exercise to wind you up it is to stop silly points that mean little. I have to field the complaints about this thread and many many others.
I am NOT here to nurse you either but I am here to keep threads meaning something. There are too many just using PPRuNe to press home meaningless drivel. If you fit that type then you will have to change your ways or go elsewhere.
Hope that makes it a little clearer.
Enjoy the thread by all means but let us stick to intelligent repartee or facts that make interesting reading.
PPP
I am NOT here to nurse you either but I am here to keep threads meaning something. There are too many just using PPRuNe to press home meaningless drivel. If you fit that type then you will have to change your ways or go elsewhere.
Hope that makes it a little clearer.
Enjoy the thread by all means but let us stick to intelligent repartee or facts that make interesting reading.
PPP
I can see the Mod's point of view and any thread which has seen the number of posts that this one has over the past month or so must be heading in the wrong direction in my opinion.
I know that I'm as guilty as anyone of getting dragged into 'lively' debate with some on here and I truly wish I didn't feel the need to do so. I just find it very difficult to let inaccuracies pass as facts and feel the need to correct those inaccuracies. Surely any forum can retain its credibility only if the information posted is true, or corrected if not true.
For the future can we not all agree to post news only, and responses direcly related to that news, and have fewer opinions expressed regarding the background to SEN's current situation? The safety aspects which have taken up so much bandwidth recently could be discussed ad infinitum and they certainly provide fertile ground for those few who simply enjoy being controversial and antagonistic.
I shan't post again until I have some real news to impart; hopefully this being sometime this week. I sincerely hope that there will still be a forum then on which to post, but that is largely in all our hands is it not?
I know that I'm as guilty as anyone of getting dragged into 'lively' debate with some on here and I truly wish I didn't feel the need to do so. I just find it very difficult to let inaccuracies pass as facts and feel the need to correct those inaccuracies. Surely any forum can retain its credibility only if the information posted is true, or corrected if not true.
For the future can we not all agree to post news only, and responses direcly related to that news, and have fewer opinions expressed regarding the background to SEN's current situation? The safety aspects which have taken up so much bandwidth recently could be discussed ad infinitum and they certainly provide fertile ground for those few who simply enjoy being controversial and antagonistic.
I shan't post again until I have some real news to impart; hopefully this being sometime this week. I sincerely hope that there will still be a forum then on which to post, but that is largely in all our hands is it not?
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Join! Update Email
Latest email from Join! Regional Airlines (19/11/12)
We have delayed our press release to end of this month, due to the attention now in the Scandinavian market for SAS. We are still heading for a start up in later February 2013. We will take in aircraft 2 by 2 every 3 month as from January. Start routes will be announced during the press release.
The new website will be launched by than as well.
We will keep you posted and send the press info as soon as available.
Thanks for your patience, with best regards
Bernard Jacobs CCO
We have delayed our press release to end of this month, due to the attention now in the Scandinavian market for SAS. We are still heading for a start up in later February 2013. We will take in aircraft 2 by 2 every 3 month as from January. Start routes will be announced during the press release.
The new website will be launched by than as well.
We will keep you posted and send the press info as soon as available.
Thanks for your patience, with best regards
Bernard Jacobs CCO
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Join
Local newspaper the Southend Echo front page has Join news on it, goes on to say they understand they want to base aircraft at Southend for possible flights to Amsterdam, Manchester, Caen, Cologne and Groningen with start up Feb 2013.
All bit wishy washy at present although they do quote Join boss and Southend Airport, I guess it's a case of watch this space still.
All bit wishy washy at present although they do quote Join boss and Southend Airport, I guess it's a case of watch this space still.