CARDIFF - 2
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Cardiff
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Totally agree a GLA-LBA-CWL route would surely be a good route.....Capital used to do it years ago with their SH6 aircraft and loads were always good for both destinations.
Then there will just be the CDG route to fill........ideally AF Hop be good but not sure what deal they have at BRS
Then there will just be the CDG route to fill........ideally AF Hop be good but not sure what deal they have at BRS
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Suffolk, Diss, UK
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Admittedly off topic, but Norwich-Leeds by train takes 3h20 and Leeds-Edinburgh takes 3h00 by train. Each city pair has a train every hour. Perhaps the train is just a little bit too good for air to be able to compete ?
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Got to give it to you guys, optimists one and all! They'll be hard pressed to fill the sf340 on the EDI run. Anything that is going "via" somewhere else, particularly LBA, would have me reaching for the train timetable.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Rock and a hard place situation for CWL.
The traffic isn't there to fill a large aircraft, so the airlines try smaller ones. With higher seat costs, meaning higher fares. So passengers go to Bristol.
In the meantime, the WG thinks the answer is more borrowing to pay for facilities that no-one needs - when what is there is perfectly fine.
Glad I don't have to worry about this one... and very glad I'm not a UK taxpayer....
TA
The traffic isn't there to fill a large aircraft, so the airlines try smaller ones. With higher seat costs, meaning higher fares. So passengers go to Bristol.
In the meantime, the WG thinks the answer is more borrowing to pay for facilities that no-one needs - when what is there is perfectly fine.
Glad I don't have to worry about this one... and very glad I'm not a UK taxpayer....
TA
Wow CWL is having money spent to expand the security area for all those passengers and a new taxi booking area in arrivals, BRS is doomed with this news. I expect easyJet to announce the closure of BRS and transfer to CWL based on this because that's what airlines want.
What about the Air Wales routes because they were profitable weren't they?
Sorry for being sarcastic, but I don't want my tax money poured down the drain on pointless stuff that's not needed as there is zero demand for it.
In my opinion and working in this industry I think CWL is in serious trouble with falling numbers.
How much will the houses cost that I expect to eventually be built on the site unless there is a drastic change in fortune in the coming years.
What about the Air Wales routes because they were profitable weren't they?
Sorry for being sarcastic, but I don't want my tax money poured down the drain on pointless stuff that's not needed as there is zero demand for it.
In my opinion and working in this industry I think CWL is in serious trouble with falling numbers.
How much will the houses cost that I expect to eventually be built on the site unless there is a drastic change in fortune in the coming years.
StoneCold - Cardiff isn't in the same league as Durham Tees Valley. Still has a major maintenance base and gets 1m pax per year going though, althought routes are becoming very heavily skewed towards beach and other pure leisure destinations.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I can understand where Stone Cold II is coming from if perhaps he worded it somewhat too sarcastically.
Recent posters have suggested that with the majority of it's traffic being holiday destination related with very little being business related CWL is going to the doldrums but the doldrums is where CWL has been, or has been coming from, for a number of decades past.
Business related traffic, going back to the late 80's and early 90's I can recall the Dan Air budgie service, combined with BRS as I recall, to/from BFS but, besides that service I'm struggling to recall another CWL business route of that era.
In the 80's also there had been Airways International Cymru (Air Crummy), their operation couldn't survive on CWL nor Wales alone with much of their work deriving from England and even then they failed and with the owner subsequently serving a prison sentence for tax evation.
Manx Regional (or whatever they were called) and then the World's Favourite Airline Regional (whatever they were called aswell) moved in with a puddle jumper operation, I personally experienced some appalling load factors on that operation and, obviously, it was unsuccessful as it is no more and with no alternative operator willing to take a similar operation on.
Other routes have been tried, I recall Metropolitan of BOH operating a route via CWL, they went bust, a route or two of Capital Airlines has been mentioned, they went bust, I think it was Air Kilroe that started a MAN route and apparently the load factors were reasonable to good, no idea what happened to that, then there was Air Wales, they ceased operations so profitable was their business, Flybe routes, yes Flybe are really making bucket loads of money with their route structure as it is and so the appalling history of air operations to/from CWL continues.
More recently, yes, with the inception of low cost carriers more people are travelling by air but many of these are only going to travel if they can get what they consider to be a bargain, if the fare isn't right then they're not going to travel whilst aircraft enthusiam has taken on a whole new meaning with the inception of the internet with even such a ridiculous route as Haverfordwest to/from Newquay being suggested on one particular WANsite!
And more often do I read calls for government subsidies, abolishment of APD, particularly, in Wales and this deranged mentality that anything and everything has to in competition with their, only, supposed competitor of BRS.
From Cardiff Airport, never mind from Cardiff City, Newport, Chepstow etc, from Cardiff Airport, cruising at 80mph, the M4/M25 intersection, effectively the world's busiest airport, is 2 hours away, BHX is a reasonably pleasant drive up/down the A449/M50 etc. whilst BRS is some 1.5 hours to/from CWL and a pain in the butt to get to and from.
CWL's market is a "puddle jumper" market, I keep reading "let's hope for new route(s) from Vueling", how long do these aircraft and airport enthusiasts think that new route upon new route are to be introduced before there are more routes than there are passengers to make them viable?
And as for government subsidies to subsidise passengers that wouldn't otherwise travel unless they consider they're getting a bargain .., "stop it, please", if people can't afford to travel by air then they travel by car, bus, train, ship or they stay at home.
And when an airport finds it necessary to make a press release that a passenger now gets 30 minutes of free WiFi access ... then one knows that these people are in trouble!
Recent posters have suggested that with the majority of it's traffic being holiday destination related with very little being business related CWL is going to the doldrums but the doldrums is where CWL has been, or has been coming from, for a number of decades past.
Business related traffic, going back to the late 80's and early 90's I can recall the Dan Air budgie service, combined with BRS as I recall, to/from BFS but, besides that service I'm struggling to recall another CWL business route of that era.
In the 80's also there had been Airways International Cymru (Air Crummy), their operation couldn't survive on CWL nor Wales alone with much of their work deriving from England and even then they failed and with the owner subsequently serving a prison sentence for tax evation.
Manx Regional (or whatever they were called) and then the World's Favourite Airline Regional (whatever they were called aswell) moved in with a puddle jumper operation, I personally experienced some appalling load factors on that operation and, obviously, it was unsuccessful as it is no more and with no alternative operator willing to take a similar operation on.
Other routes have been tried, I recall Metropolitan of BOH operating a route via CWL, they went bust, a route or two of Capital Airlines has been mentioned, they went bust, I think it was Air Kilroe that started a MAN route and apparently the load factors were reasonable to good, no idea what happened to that, then there was Air Wales, they ceased operations so profitable was their business, Flybe routes, yes Flybe are really making bucket loads of money with their route structure as it is and so the appalling history of air operations to/from CWL continues.
More recently, yes, with the inception of low cost carriers more people are travelling by air but many of these are only going to travel if they can get what they consider to be a bargain, if the fare isn't right then they're not going to travel whilst aircraft enthusiam has taken on a whole new meaning with the inception of the internet with even such a ridiculous route as Haverfordwest to/from Newquay being suggested on one particular WANsite!
And more often do I read calls for government subsidies, abolishment of APD, particularly, in Wales and this deranged mentality that anything and everything has to in competition with their, only, supposed competitor of BRS.
From Cardiff Airport, never mind from Cardiff City, Newport, Chepstow etc, from Cardiff Airport, cruising at 80mph, the M4/M25 intersection, effectively the world's busiest airport, is 2 hours away, BHX is a reasonably pleasant drive up/down the A449/M50 etc. whilst BRS is some 1.5 hours to/from CWL and a pain in the butt to get to and from.
CWL's market is a "puddle jumper" market, I keep reading "let's hope for new route(s) from Vueling", how long do these aircraft and airport enthusiasts think that new route upon new route are to be introduced before there are more routes than there are passengers to make them viable?
And as for government subsidies to subsidise passengers that wouldn't otherwise travel unless they consider they're getting a bargain .., "stop it, please", if people can't afford to travel by air then they travel by car, bus, train, ship or they stay at home.
And when an airport finds it necessary to make a press release that a passenger now gets 30 minutes of free WiFi access ... then one knows that these people are in trouble!
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I feel that certain posters on this thread are just willing the airport to fail - and to hell with the livelihoods of a significant number of people that work there - BAMC included.
Is it too much to ask that we give the new management team a reasonable period of time to bed in and make a difference? Pax 9% up for Summer 13, TOM adding significant cax for Win 13/14, BE adding ski routes - so its not all bad news is it?
Lets see what happens when main edition brochures come out for S15 over coming weeks
Is it too much to ask that we give the new management team a reasonable period of time to bed in and make a difference? Pax 9% up for Summer 13, TOM adding significant cax for Win 13/14, BE adding ski routes - so its not all bad news is it?
Lets see what happens when main edition brochures come out for S15 over coming weeks
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Cym, thats not the case, but hoping that a 'new' management team are going to turn it around with a quick makeover is not realistic. The fate of BAMC pretty much rests with whether IAG will bear the increased cost of running this operation in the UK vs. doing the same same thing for less in the Far East. Personally, I think the jury is still out on this issue. With multi national companies little is sacred, least of all the employee.
As regards CWL, with increased footfall comes more money and hopefully profit for the Airport. They can increase the footfall as much as they like in the short term by encouraging airlines to operate a service, but unless the Airline makes money then they will pull out.
Unless an airline/IT operator can reliably make money at CWL, the ultimate future of the Airport is doomed.
The UK recovering from recession will help, but something really needs to attract people so they make CWL their No1 choice. That realistically means it has to be cheaper than BRS. How to achieve this is another thing.
As regards CWL, with increased footfall comes more money and hopefully profit for the Airport. They can increase the footfall as much as they like in the short term by encouraging airlines to operate a service, but unless the Airline makes money then they will pull out.
Unless an airline/IT operator can reliably make money at CWL, the ultimate future of the Airport is doomed.
The UK recovering from recession will help, but something really needs to attract people so they make CWL their No1 choice. That realistically means it has to be cheaper than BRS. How to achieve this is another thing.
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Apart from things like ATC BAMC doesn't really need CWL to be there.
I recall hearing gossip a while ago that CWL got enough money from BAMC that it could operate the basic skeleton crew required to service the needs of BAMC with no other flights and still make a profit, and that this was one reason why the previous owners never really did much with the place. As with all gossip there's probably a lot of stuff that's wrong but there is some truth in there somewhere.
I recall hearing gossip a while ago that CWL got enough money from BAMC that it could operate the basic skeleton crew required to service the needs of BAMC with no other flights and still make a profit, and that this was one reason why the previous owners never really did much with the place. As with all gossip there's probably a lot of stuff that's wrong but there is some truth in there somewhere.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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If BAMC aircraft paid the published prices for landing at Cardiff then maybe however I believe this is not to be the case.
Also one again chicken or the egg situation springs to mind. You will not get lower ticket prices without competition on routes however airlines reluctant to come in and add competition on routes because they don't think the passengers are there. It's not the case of landing fees costs as they are the published costs and not what the airline actually pays.
You only have to look at prices to Alicante & Malaga at CWL to find they have lowered with Thomson Airways since Vueling has entered the scene. Actually I have heard that TFS & PFO for Summer 2014 has come up cheaper several times against BRS.
Airlines are businesses at the end of the day and they will charge what they can get away with. I read and article today and despite record profits forecast they only actually froecast to make $6 per pax next year.
Also one again chicken or the egg situation springs to mind. You will not get lower ticket prices without competition on routes however airlines reluctant to come in and add competition on routes because they don't think the passengers are there. It's not the case of landing fees costs as they are the published costs and not what the airline actually pays.
You only have to look at prices to Alicante & Malaga at CWL to find they have lowered with Thomson Airways since Vueling has entered the scene. Actually I have heard that TFS & PFO for Summer 2014 has come up cheaper several times against BRS.
Airlines are businesses at the end of the day and they will charge what they can get away with. I read and article today and despite record profits forecast they only actually froecast to make $6 per pax next year.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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While many of the airport forums on pprune have their share of plane spotters wishlists, Cardiff really is in a league of it's own on that score.
Letsflycwl, I am not sure if you are old enough to be employed yet, but if so you are wasted on here as there is surely a gaping hole on an airline board just waiting to be filled by you when you can spare the time......
As for people on here 'wanting the airport to fail', maybe it's got more to do with the bemusement of those on here who seem to think it's potentially got 10 million pax a year waiting in the wings, if only those silly airline execs could see what they can see.
I certainly don't want it to fail, I've got relatives in Rhoose Point and thoroughly enjoy my Sunday Roasts at the Flying Club.
Letsflycwl, I am not sure if you are old enough to be employed yet, but if so you are wasted on here as there is surely a gaping hole on an airline board just waiting to be filled by you when you can spare the time......
As for people on here 'wanting the airport to fail', maybe it's got more to do with the bemusement of those on here who seem to think it's potentially got 10 million pax a year waiting in the wings, if only those silly airline execs could see what they can see.
I certainly don't want it to fail, I've got relatives in Rhoose Point and thoroughly enjoy my Sunday Roasts at the Flying Club.
The long term survival of airports like CWL and NQY is diversification into other areas to make the whole facility pay its way, whether those be aviation related businesses or not. Revenue from passenger traffic alone will never be enough to make the facility profitable unless South Wales magically increases its market numbers.
That's it I am off back to Canada,where a lot of tinier airports than Cardiff survive from just a tin shed and do not cost tax payers millions of pounds or dollars, see you all next year!
That's it I am off back to Canada,where a lot of tinier airports than Cardiff survive from just a tin shed and do not cost tax payers millions of pounds or dollars, see you all next year!
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I certainly know that CWL does not have anywhere near a 10m pa potential market and have a very clear understanding of the yield challenges from Cardiff as it was my day job for a very long time, I also understand some of the opportunities
There is real growth potential at CWL, it has to be realistic and acknowledge the limitations that local demographics have impact wise. That's why I say give the new management team some time.
The old regime was a disaster who I feel did nothing to manage the adverse impact of the recession on demand ex CWL
There is real growth potential at CWL, it has to be realistic and acknowledge the limitations that local demographics have impact wise. That's why I say give the new management team some time.
The old regime was a disaster who I feel did nothing to manage the adverse impact of the recession on demand ex CWL
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There is real growth potential at CWL
Join Date: Sep 2013
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Quote:
There is real growth potential at CWL
Maybe you should put a call in to all these airlines that unfortunately haven't realised yet, even after all these years. First one to try it is clearly on a winner...
There is real growth potential at CWL
Maybe you should put a call in to all these airlines that unfortunately haven't realised yet, even after all these years. First one to try it is clearly on a winner...
Without airlines, and increased disposable income within the South Wales area though, we will have to get used to having this roundabout debate of CWL 'turning into a shed' and a 'waste of taxpayers money' etc etc.