CARDIFF - 2

[virginblue]

That was 15 years ago when the EMB145 and DHC8-300 dominated regional flying. How many of those are still around? And how much did tickets costs back then? There were also times when you could make money with BAC1-11s, but they are long gone...

Times are changing, and regional flying simply is a loss-maker in all but the most unusual circumstances. It is not as if all the geniuses keep PPRUNE busy and all the schnooks run the airlines.

[macdo]

proof of the pudding is in...... the FACT that none of the airlines are either in existence or choosing to operate out of CWL. Even TCX can't profitably fill a 220 seat holiday jet all through the year and has withdrawn the aircraft and put it somewhere where the grass is greener to replace it with an easy to offload ACMI contractor. There are constant rumours, which I don't attempt to substantiate, about Thompsons future plans for CWL.
Margins are less than wafer thin everywhere, but non existent at CWL, particularly for scheduled flying.
I really am sorry, as I want a local Welsh airport to work, but under current economics, the numbers don't stack up.

[mathers_wales_uk]

If margins are tight at CWL with TOM I wonder what they are like at BRS where prices tend to be cheaepr due to competition against the low cost airlines.

[macdo]

Thats a good point and I have contradictory answers.

Firstly, wafer margins are OK if the load factor meets expectation throughout the year. IT airlines will only offer a product if they predict profitability with a degree of confidence. The fact that TOM and TCX maintain a 12 month presence at BRS with multiple a/c (multi a/c base do reap a small gain in productivity) seems to support this confidence. Load factor for CWL, for the airline I work for has been satisfactory (for a 180 seat a/c) in summer, but loss making in winter, for some considerable years.

But, one of the main gripes customers have about CWL is that it is more expensive generally to book a holiday. We see South Wales vote with its feet across the bridge to BRS.
But, this week my daughter and 10 friends booked a holiday to IBZ in August from BRS, on the advice from their travel agent that it would be cheaper. How surprised was I ( and the agent when I rang and told her) that the same holiday flying out of CWL was 30GBP per person cheaper! I'm not sure that you can read much into an individual case, but perhaps some effort is being made to make CWL competitive, at long last.

At the end of the day, its not about roads, terminals, cafes, wifi etc., its about cost. The leisure pax will always follow their wallet, if the IT offering at CWL is as cheap as BRS then people will use CWL. IMHO, the business market at CWL will always remain stunted for reasons mentioned before.

[mathers_wales_uk]

I don't think it's an isolated case and I have heard by 3 desperate people where Cardiff has been cheaper over BRS with same airline operating both services. This was 2 x TFS & 1 x PFO. It's funny how there are great deals out there and altering your travel plans by a week or two maybe the difference between CWL being cheaper than BRS or not.

Don't get me started with Travel Agents. A shop in Penarth was misinforming clients that there were no more flights operating from Cardiff in winter time and not even aware that their own airline was operating year round. Some say that tour operator managers incentivise this behaviour to fill up the capacity at larger bases. It's strange how the agents will always insist on adding BRS to your search despite saying you only want to fly from Cardiff.

Of course there is another problem where passengers don't bother looking at CWL as they have been used to flying from BRS. I suppose it's right that humans are creatures of habit.

[mustrum_ridcully]

No seems to be mentioning the elephant in the room.

A large chunk of the 1hr travel catchment area of CWL is in an EU Convergence area - it's GDP is less than 75% of the EU average (most of these areas are in Eastern Europe).

Having a successful airport and a massive tourist industry won't fix this problem either, because if it did Malaga in Spain wouldn't be in a convergence area (AGP has around 12.5million passengers a year).

Unless the fundamental issues are addressed CWL will struggle, except those problems are very difficult to solve. So the easy route is taken of state ownership of the airport and then trying to get APD powers to effectively state subsidise the airport at the expense of a privately owned and successful airport (IMHO the very reason why APD wasn't devolved).

[Letsflycwl]

I see LBA have got Eastern to takeover their cancelled Flybe destination of SOU, can't see why not CWL don't do a deal with Eastern to operate both GLA and CDG.....both within range of a J41.

Or maybe even Loganair to operate the GLA flight with their SF3, CWL just can't afford to not have any links to Paris or Glasgow......come on, give us something to smile about 😱

[Joe Curry]

The new acquisition by the Scottish Government could result in Eastern and Loganair services through CWL to Glasgow Prestwick?

[Letsflycwl]

Either GLA or PIK, CWL just can't afford to loose the amount of passengers that currently fly to both GLA and CDG to their competitor at BRS....

[silverstreak]

With the exception of FR, and possibly a very few others, I think PIK will grow to become a big player in cargo / maintenance / training and who knows, possibly aircraft storage...

With EDI and GLA (who may have new owners in the coming year) going chin to chin for business, I dont hear or see anyone lining themselves up to operate into PIK...

Good airport with reasonable facilities but short of appeal unfortunately

[TwinAisle]

I suggest everyone reads what Mustrum_Ridcully wrote. Pretty bang on, and explains why flybe discontinued the CDG and GLA routes. If the local economy cannot support the routes, then the airline certainly shouldn't have to out of their own resources. This is COMMERCIAL aviation - no returns means no routes. Simple.

Lestflycwl - again, your post tends to prove the point - Eastern saw an opportunity at LBA that, following the loss of a competitor on the routes, was likely to give them a return. They took it. Unless someone sees a likely return on CWL routes, they won't come to CWL.

Whilst Cardiff

just can't afford to loose (sic) the amount of passengers that currently fly to both GLA and CDG to their competitor at BRS....

... there is not much chance that they can afford to stop it happening either.

If the profit was there to be made, the airlines would be there like a flash.

[GROUNDHOG]

Twin Aisle as ever is absolutely right, airports do not grow healthy economies, healthy economies feed airports. Simples.

[MerchantVenturer]

CWL-EDI

Loganair is taking on the CWL-EDI route from next March from Flybe.

Scottish airlines takes over Flybe route at Cardiff Airport - Wales Online

[arfortune]

Flybe dropped Glasgow and Paris. This seems a prime example of sloppy reporting?
Am guessing this is just Loganair operating the Edinburgh route under their Flybe agreement with a more suitable sized aircraft?
Can anyone confirm?

[MerchantVenturer]

That seems to be the case, arfortune, and possibly with an enhanced frequency judging from the words of the Loganair spokesman. I can't find details of frequency or aircraft type as yet.

[mathers_wales_uk]

Seems as if Cardiff Airport are investing in it's future

• Expansion of security
• Installation of up to date technology in terminal building
• New taxi booking and reception facility in arrivals
• Changes to drop off and pick up areas
• Refurbishment and redecoration of facilities

Improvement works announced at Cardiff Airport - Sent by Cardiff Airport

[bad bear]

Looking at the timetable Flybe have gone from 9 destinations from Cardiff this winter to 2 next summer, Belfast 7 days a week and Jersey 5 day per week.(Plus Loganair on the EDI with smaller plane). I guess thats why the airport value has risen by 3m since it was bought a few weeks ago?




bb

[Letsflycwl]

With Loganair operating the x3 daily EDI routes, I'd have thought they would have taken over the GLA route as well ?? A GLA-CWL sector could fit in with their NQY route ?? Or a seperate SF3 for GLA-CWL ?

[rpmac]

Or an extension of the GLA- LBA to CWL Also I would love to see a Norwich - LBA - Edinburgh service.

[davidjohnson6]

Or an extension of the GLA- LBA to CWL

Cardiff-Leeds takes about 4h10 by train - certainly possible that this might attract air passengers. It's worth noting however that Bristol-Leeds takes 3h30 by train and doesn't have air service. I would expect that the greater commercial activity of Bristol would balance out against the longer journey time from Cardiff. One would need to have a very clear idea of corporate customers for a Cardiff-Leeds route before it can be launched

Also I would love to see a Norwich - LBA - Edinburgh service

Admittedly off topic, but Norwich-Leeds by train takes 3h20 and Leeds-Edinburgh takes 3h00 by train. Each city pair has a train every hour. Perhaps the train is just a little bit too good for air to be able to compete ?