MANCHESTER - 8
Join Date: Sep 2002
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easyflyer83 -
I know we have had this exchange before, but you raise the point again so I will answer it again. The problem at LHR has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of T5. LHR is restricted by its over-subscribed pair of runways and MAN is first in line for the chop whenever ANYTHING goes wrong. Once a year? Dream on! So, you agree with BA's policy - fine. I agree with every Mancunian traveller who tells BA to "do one" for as long as they treat us as inferior to EVERYONE else on their network. But I note that they don't charge us less for that honour.
I know we have had this exchange before, but you raise the point again so I will answer it again. The problem at LHR has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of T5. LHR is restricted by its over-subscribed pair of runways and MAN is first in line for the chop whenever ANYTHING goes wrong. Once a year? Dream on! So, you agree with BA's policy - fine. I agree with every Mancunian traveller who tells BA to "do one" for as long as they treat us as inferior to EVERYONE else on their network. But I note that they don't charge us less for that honour.
And that is each individuals own choice and I respect them for that. When it happens week in, week out then I'll agree with you but bare in mind that relatively few canx on MAN-LHR will be down to the "MAN gets chopped first". The majority will be your usual tech issues etc.
Also, you will notice that I said that it's a policy I agree with from an operational point of view. I don't expect your BA passenger to be happy about it, far from it. However, getting down to LHR by other means is much easier than from say NCE or MXP. When it's snow for example, the severity is normally localised making the trip South relatively easier. Once in LHR I would expect full assistance and flexibility from BA to get me where I was going from then on. Facilitating the movement of passengers under extreme circumstances (and the widespread shuttle cancellations tend to only happen in such scenarios) means that MAN is the obvious candidate to chop. If I was whoevers decision it was I'd make the same call. Similar difficult decisions are made by airlines world wide including EK, QR and EY.
I'm not 'sticking up for BA' regardless but your opinions do seem to be tinged with a stick two fingers up at BA for not operating at MAN sentiment. Of course that is an entirely different debate.
Also, you will notice that I said that it's a policy I agree with from an operational point of view. I don't expect your BA passenger to be happy about it, far from it. However, getting down to LHR by other means is much easier than from say NCE or MXP. When it's snow for example, the severity is normally localised making the trip South relatively easier. Once in LHR I would expect full assistance and flexibility from BA to get me where I was going from then on. Facilitating the movement of passengers under extreme circumstances (and the widespread shuttle cancellations tend to only happen in such scenarios) means that MAN is the obvious candidate to chop. If I was whoevers decision it was I'd make the same call. Similar difficult decisions are made by airlines world wide including EK, QR and EY.
I'm not 'sticking up for BA' regardless but your opinions do seem to be tinged with a stick two fingers up at BA for not operating at MAN sentiment. Of course that is an entirely different debate.
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easyflyer83 -
It is interesting to note that you "expect full assistance" from BA in the event of MAN Shuttle cancellations. I hate to break this to you, but in practice you are left entirely on your own. "Go back home, sir," they say. "I'd like to. I've paid you to fly me there," I reply. You might as well book with a no-frills carrier. My opinions are not tinged with resentment at BA for not operating a MAN network. If you check my posting history, you will find numerous postings in which I defend BA's right to operate according to whatever business plan they choose. They are a for-profit PLC. No, my opinions are tinged with a "you'll never get another chance to strand me again whilst prioritising everybody else's journey" sentiment. Now, is that clear enough? Your assumption is misplaced.
It is interesting to note that you "expect full assistance" from BA in the event of MAN Shuttle cancellations. I hate to break this to you, but in practice you are left entirely on your own. "Go back home, sir," they say. "I'd like to. I've paid you to fly me there," I reply. You might as well book with a no-frills carrier. My opinions are not tinged with resentment at BA for not operating a MAN network. If you check my posting history, you will find numerous postings in which I defend BA's right to operate according to whatever business plan they choose. They are a for-profit PLC. No, my opinions are tinged with a "you'll never get another chance to strand me again whilst prioritising everybody else's journey" sentiment. Now, is that clear enough? Your assumption is misplaced.
I meant full assistance in LHR after making my own way down there. And if you are a regular flyer and experienced delays and canx with other airlines do you really believe that your flight wasn't, at some point, subject to some sort of trade off or prioritised exercise? Indeed, you might well have been on a flight that operated at the expense of another. Like I say it's a operational decision process that isn't unique to BA however inconvenient it maybe to pax.
Certainly I have seen this kind of thing at the two airlines I have worked for.
Certainly I have seen this kind of thing at the two airlines I have worked for.
We are quite good at re-routing delayed passengers these days. There is often an ACARS message (recieved before landing) from Flight Connections detailing any passengers with tight connections and how we propose to handle them. Either met by passenger services and expedited to the next flight or rebooked. We are in a better position to do this as most trunk routes have muliple departures per day. I can get the cabin crew to re-seat some pax in order to have them get off first.
The same holds true for domestic passengers arriving off-schedule at T5 with onward travel.
If the whole airport is closed the system stalls but that isn't the airlines fault and all will struggle........
The same holds true for domestic passengers arriving off-schedule at T5 with onward travel.
If the whole airport is closed the system stalls but that isn't the airlines fault and all will struggle........
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easyflyer83 -
Your reply is unconvincing. So BA will look after pax AFTER they make their OWN way to LHR??? How useful. Might as well book the train in the first place if you don't actually want to travel by air! And being politely transferred to the next day's flight to Miami? So useful when the ship has already sailed. If they cancelled every second shuttle and spread the pain around the short-haul network, such customers would stand a chance. No, this policy has directly affected me twice, and on two other occasions I have had close friends caught out by it returning to Australia after visits. I warn them all to avoid BA like the plague now, and Emirates (avoiding LHR) have served them well so far.
I'm sure the MAN-LHR flights are put through "some sort of trade off or prioritised exercise" just as you say. Trouble is, they always lose! As a customer, that tells me everything I need to know, thankyou.
For as long as BA consider getting MAN passengers to final destination as a nice optional extra on days when everything else is going smoothly, I will avoid them absolutely. We in this region are not paying 'standby' fares to fly BA, you know. We are paying the full whack, so we deserve the same priority as everyone else on the network. If you can't provide the service, don't take the bookings. Fortunately, MAN today offers easy connections around the globe with a good selection of alternative carriers. They haven't let me down; I recommend them and use them myself.
However nicely appointed LHR T5 might be, exiting it landside and making my own way to a very expensive 'on the day' train from Euston doesn't fit in with my preferred itinerary. And by the way, on the one occasion I have used T5 it had all its escalators switched off. Reminded me of somewhere closer to home! And, having ordered a main course at one of its eateries, I was told that I could not have a dessert because the kitchen staff were going home. Maybe they could have mentioned that at the outset before they all ******ed off and the customers could have ordered a few minutes in advance. At least I saved on the tip, and the dessert from that M&S outlet downstairs was half the price and very agreeable anyway. Nope. Nice building, same old arrogant non customer-focused London service. Other hubs for me, thankyou! And I've seen nothing to persuade me to re-recommend LHR to friends visiting MAN either.
Your reply is unconvincing. So BA will look after pax AFTER they make their OWN way to LHR??? How useful. Might as well book the train in the first place if you don't actually want to travel by air! And being politely transferred to the next day's flight to Miami? So useful when the ship has already sailed. If they cancelled every second shuttle and spread the pain around the short-haul network, such customers would stand a chance. No, this policy has directly affected me twice, and on two other occasions I have had close friends caught out by it returning to Australia after visits. I warn them all to avoid BA like the plague now, and Emirates (avoiding LHR) have served them well so far.
I'm sure the MAN-LHR flights are put through "some sort of trade off or prioritised exercise" just as you say. Trouble is, they always lose! As a customer, that tells me everything I need to know, thankyou.
For as long as BA consider getting MAN passengers to final destination as a nice optional extra on days when everything else is going smoothly, I will avoid them absolutely. We in this region are not paying 'standby' fares to fly BA, you know. We are paying the full whack, so we deserve the same priority as everyone else on the network. If you can't provide the service, don't take the bookings. Fortunately, MAN today offers easy connections around the globe with a good selection of alternative carriers. They haven't let me down; I recommend them and use them myself.
However nicely appointed LHR T5 might be, exiting it landside and making my own way to a very expensive 'on the day' train from Euston doesn't fit in with my preferred itinerary. And by the way, on the one occasion I have used T5 it had all its escalators switched off. Reminded me of somewhere closer to home! And, having ordered a main course at one of its eateries, I was told that I could not have a dessert because the kitchen staff were going home. Maybe they could have mentioned that at the outset before they all ******ed off and the customers could have ordered a few minutes in advance. At least I saved on the tip, and the dessert from that M&S outlet downstairs was half the price and very agreeable anyway. Nope. Nice building, same old arrogant non customer-focused London service. Other hubs for me, thankyou! And I've seen nothing to persuade me to re-recommend LHR to friends visiting MAN either.
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Perhaps some actual data on the percentage of flights cancelled between LHR and MAN would help the debate. How many people miss connections, what is the average delay, how does that compare to other connecting options? Annecdotal evidence or personal preference don't add any real value and are best left to the passenger and SLF forum
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You are absolutely correct, ETOPS. I do indeed have an axe to grind against poor customer service. I am very loyal to companies which serve me well, and those which do not must demonstrate tangible and convincing improvement if they wish to win back my business. I make no apologies for demanding 100% effort from companies which receive payment with my hard-earned cash. A one-off honest mistake (accompanied by an apology) I can / will tolerate. But an established company policy to treat my business as the default choice for disruption and cancellation ... thanks, but no thanks. If you consider poor service acceptable, that is your choice absolutely.
North West - A raw statistic showing the absolute number of flights cancelled would be of limited use. The problem is the tactic of cancelling all shuttles for a whole day, or a whole morning, at the first hint of a problem at LHR. This removes any hope of making connections. As for using the SLF forum, I take your point. But the issue was raised (again) on this thread, so I must answer it on here. Regards.
North West - A raw statistic showing the absolute number of flights cancelled would be of limited use. The problem is the tactic of cancelling all shuttles for a whole day, or a whole morning, at the first hint of a problem at LHR. This removes any hope of making connections. As for using the SLF forum, I take your point. But the issue was raised (again) on this thread, so I must answer it on here. Regards.
..and it's not as if flying MAN-LHR-XX is cheap either, very often these fares are higher than flying CDG-LHR-XX or AMS-LHR-XX on the very same onward connections. However, on a disrupted day the CDG /AMS legs stand a good chance of being operated whilst the MAN legs have no chance.
To suggest ambling down to Piccadilly station, buying a walk up fare & then crossing London to LHR to try & re-book on a 12 hour flight, is quiet frankly ludicrous.
I'm with Shed on this one. All my hub connecting is done via ATL, FRA, MUC or ZRH & it works just fine for me.
However, if you like hubbing at LHR it's great for you to have that choice. Good luck.
My Chinese friend was convinced to go via T5 last year & the service / connection could not have been better for him, unfortunately, the same could not be said for his luggage.
To suggest ambling down to Piccadilly station, buying a walk up fare & then crossing London to LHR to try & re-book on a 12 hour flight, is quiet frankly ludicrous.
I'm with Shed on this one. All my hub connecting is done via ATL, FRA, MUC or ZRH & it works just fine for me.
However, if you like hubbing at LHR it's great for you to have that choice. Good luck.
My Chinese friend was convinced to go via T5 last year & the service / connection could not have been better for him, unfortunately, the same could not be said for his luggage.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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AMS has five runways, CDG has four, FRA has four, ZRH has three.
MAN has the same number of runways as LHR.
So when things grind to a halt, there's no leeway and nowhere to take up the slack. Having said that, there's been a lot more landings on the departure runway of late and the allowing of mixed mode during disruption is a step in the right direction.
MAN has the same number of runways as LHR.
So when things grind to a halt, there's no leeway and nowhere to take up the slack. Having said that, there's been a lot more landings on the departure runway of late and the allowing of mixed mode during disruption is a step in the right direction.
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Ryanair again
Message 2743 from j636 posted the following link to a MEN on line article about Ryanair - see here
Michael O'Leary announces Ryanair expansion plans at Manchester Airport | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk
In the good old paper copy (Business, p50 04/11/2011), the article is much much longer and contains a few interesting other snippets as follows
It will be interesting to see how much of this expansion comes to pass bearing in mind his previous track record of promising expansion on hub openings which in the event never happens. However he does seem to have adopted quite a laid back attitude in this interview in contrast to his usual aggressive one.
Suzeman
Michael O'Leary announces Ryanair expansion plans at Manchester Airport | Manchester Evening News - menmedia.co.uk
In the good old paper copy (Business, p50 04/11/2011), the article is much much longer and contains a few interesting other snippets as follows
- MOL says Manchester is central to the airline's growth strategy, adding that it will increase it's presence there "as fast as the airport wants us to". Interestingly he then says "but they (MAN) won't want us to explode and trash what some of their other carriers are doing and that makes sense".
Don't think I have ever heard him say that in public before? - Then he says that future growth at MAN would continue to be around Summer Sun destinations, particularly in France Spain and Italy.
So he will have to pick his destinations carefully if he isn't going to trash other carriers' markets - On the spat two years ago, he said " I think there is a much better understanding now between FR and the Airport. There is a new management team here (at MAN) and the relationship is much more sensible. We recognise that FR needs a presence here and Manchester recognises they need FR here.
More concilliatory remarks similar to those made when the expansion was announced after some of the older airport team had disappeared - Initial bookings from MAN were very strong
- Another interesting comment was that MAN and LBA were two bases showing "rapid growth" and he predicted that would continue. He added " One airport that clearly won't show more growth but won't decline is Liverpool". In the video in the attached link he specifically says people from Manchester won't have to travel to LPL and LBA now to access his cheap fares.
- If the UK Government scrap APD, the airline would consider bringing its extra planes to Manchester earlier than planned
It will be interesting to see how much of this expansion comes to pass bearing in mind his previous track record of promising expansion on hub openings which in the event never happens. However he does seem to have adopted quite a laid back attitude in this interview in contrast to his usual aggressive one.
Suzeman
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Terminal Changes
Hey
I seem to remember it being said that Monarch, on their move to T2 would be mainly on remote stands and not using the jetways. Is this rumour/speculation true? Obviously we will find out on Tuesday!
Also, easyJet, am I right, will have near exclusive use of Pier B in T1? Meaning Jet2 will most likely take Monarch's homeland of Pier C?
MAN won't seem the same after this move, it will be weird and sad looking over to T2 and seeing spotty M, also seeing the orange army on T1 will be uncanny!
eJJ
I seem to remember it being said that Monarch, on their move to T2 would be mainly on remote stands and not using the jetways. Is this rumour/speculation true? Obviously we will find out on Tuesday!
Also, easyJet, am I right, will have near exclusive use of Pier B in T1? Meaning Jet2 will most likely take Monarch's homeland of Pier C?
MAN won't seem the same after this move, it will be weird and sad looking over to T2 and seeing spotty M, also seeing the orange army on T1 will be uncanny!
eJJ
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Just managed to attend (for about 20mins) the memorial gardens for the last post and flag at half mast. A very moving tribute and quite well attended. Even the aircraft taking off seemed a little quieter.
Thank you to the Chaplains for taking the time to help us remember
Thank you to the Chaplains for taking the time to help us remember
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I seem to remember it being said that Monarch, on their move to T2 would be mainly on remote stands and not using the jetways. Is this rumour/speculation true? Obviously we will find out on Tuesday!
Also, easyJet, am I right, will have near exclusive use of Pier B in T1? Meaning Jet2 will most likely take Monarch's homeland of Pier C?
MAN won't seem the same after this move, it will be weird and sad looking over to T2 and seeing spotty M, also seeing the orange army on T1 will be uncanny!
Also, easyJet, am I right, will have near exclusive use of Pier B in T1? Meaning Jet2 will most likely take Monarch's homeland of Pier C?
MAN won't seem the same after this move, it will be weird and sad looking over to T2 and seeing spotty M, also seeing the orange army on T1 will be uncanny!
If anyone is at MAN on tuesday any chance they could bring some pictures of ZB at T2?