DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 5
Stupid this for that MP to say.
Equally, DTVAirport, if you know something then share it, otherwise why bother posting?
Equally, DTVAirport, if you know something then share it, otherwise why bother posting?
Last edited by pug; 3rd Oct 2012 at 22:34.
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Kevan Jones MP gets rubbished mainly because he is saying the things that you don't want to hear.His basic premise was that Teessside couldn't compete with Newcastle in regard to passenger operations..If you look at all the published data ,then he is correct.
I only asked the question was he talking sense.The rose tinted glasses brigade will disagree.The question in regard to has Teesside got a future will not go away.
I only asked the question was he talking sense.The rose tinted glasses brigade will disagree.The question in regard to has Teesside got a future will not go away.
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If you look at all the published data ,then he is correct
NEWCASTLE
Total pax 2001 - 3,431,393
Total pax 2011 - 4,346,270
Increase in pax - 914,877 (+26.66%)
DTV
Total pax 2001 - 733,617
Total pax 2011 - 192,410
Decrease in pax - 541,207 (-73.77%)
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So there's a massive decline so what?! Doesn't mean we won't one day bounce back! I can't share what I know because I'm told it's commercially sensitive but in the same breath it's nice to let people know that there may well be light at the end of the tunnel.
Say what you like about Mr Duran's comments, the fact of the matter is he's heavily outnumbered!
Say what you like about Mr Duran's comments, the fact of the matter is he's heavily outnumbered!
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So there's a massive decline so what?! Doesn't mean we won't one day bounce back
Having said that, I hope you are correct.
The MP is probably asking the wrong question.
An airport is a piece of land that has been substantially modified to allow people in the area to travel very quickly to other places in Europe.
That piece of land is ultimately a local resource, and the question to be asked, is whether this resource gives the greatest benefit to local people by being used for air transport, or whether it would give greater benefit in some alternate use.
Scrapping passenger flights at MME but keeping the land as an airport achieves relatively little for the people of Middlesbrough, apart from maybe encouraging other airlines to open routes to NCL (e.g. LH to Frankfurt for onward connections).
If MME is acting as a major drain on local Govt funds so that other projects that would benefit the area cannot take place, or there is a clear need for a large area of land for some alternate use, then closing the airport may be worthwhile. Otherwise, best for Govt to let it carry on until someone comes up with a better use for the land.
An airport is a piece of land that has been substantially modified to allow people in the area to travel very quickly to other places in Europe.
That piece of land is ultimately a local resource, and the question to be asked, is whether this resource gives the greatest benefit to local people by being used for air transport, or whether it would give greater benefit in some alternate use.
Scrapping passenger flights at MME but keeping the land as an airport achieves relatively little for the people of Middlesbrough, apart from maybe encouraging other airlines to open routes to NCL (e.g. LH to Frankfurt for onward connections).
If MME is acting as a major drain on local Govt funds so that other projects that would benefit the area cannot take place, or there is a clear need for a large area of land for some alternate use, then closing the airport may be worthwhile. Otherwise, best for Govt to let it carry on until someone comes up with a better use for the land.
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We all want to see our local airport doing well - good news at mine warrants a few fist pumps usually.
I don't like it when users say negative things about my local and will often defend but in the case of ILS62 I believe he was trying to deliver a dose of reality. Six years of continual decline with no signs of an upturn has got to be ringing alarm bells in even the biggest of advocates.
The MP is an idiot but with only ~500 people passing through the doors each day people on here have got to be asking themselves is it worth keeping the airport operating when you have a major airport with a ton of routes 40 miles up the road.
I certainly think that with UK aviation at least possibly showing signs of an upturn, DTV should be given 2-3 years to get numbers on the up.
I have tried to give a balanced, neutral viewpoint so if you're going to flame me as well, try to do it constructively.
Cheers
I don't like it when users say negative things about my local and will often defend but in the case of ILS62 I believe he was trying to deliver a dose of reality. Six years of continual decline with no signs of an upturn has got to be ringing alarm bells in even the biggest of advocates.
The MP is an idiot but with only ~500 people passing through the doors each day people on here have got to be asking themselves is it worth keeping the airport operating when you have a major airport with a ton of routes 40 miles up the road.
I certainly think that with UK aviation at least possibly showing signs of an upturn, DTV should be given 2-3 years to get numbers on the up.
I have tried to give a balanced, neutral viewpoint so if you're going to flame me as well, try to do it constructively.
Cheers
Last edited by CaptainDoony; 4th Oct 2012 at 12:21.
It's a good job this Labour politician has no authority, isn't it?
Keep airports (and everything else) away from politicians - they will surely screw them up given half a chance.
Keep airports (and everything else) away from politicians - they will surely screw them up given half a chance.
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Durham MP and DTV Chairmans comments
Wouldnt surprise me if the same Durham MP wasnt aware of the £5m kickback which the ex boss of Newcastle Airport gave himself when he arranged the refinancing of the £250m loan for Newcastle Airport.
Tyne tees news ran a story about it after a court case this week and they have blamed the local councils for not keeping an eye on the contracts before sanctioning the ex boss and his massive commision... £5 million!
BBC News - Newcastle Airport loses case over £8m paid to directors
Was the MP be behind the sale of Teesside to Peel as well, lets face it the contract was a joke giving Peel most of the shares after waiting ten years!
It wouldnt surprise me with his latest comments about not wanting passenger flights at DTV. Is he in the same lodge as the rest of the Peel funny handshakers
Talking of lodge members...The DTV Chairman (who lives in Cheshire) wrote a personal letter in tonights Evening Gazette after members of the public had asked for someone else to take control of the airport instead of running it into the ground...same old spin was the reply
Tyne tees news ran a story about it after a court case this week and they have blamed the local councils for not keeping an eye on the contracts before sanctioning the ex boss and his massive commision... £5 million!
BBC News - Newcastle Airport loses case over £8m paid to directors
Was the MP be behind the sale of Teesside to Peel as well, lets face it the contract was a joke giving Peel most of the shares after waiting ten years!
It wouldnt surprise me with his latest comments about not wanting passenger flights at DTV. Is he in the same lodge as the rest of the Peel funny handshakers
Talking of lodge members...The DTV Chairman (who lives in Cheshire) wrote a personal letter in tonights Evening Gazette after members of the public had asked for someone else to take control of the airport instead of running it into the ground...same old spin was the reply
Last edited by Northbound A1; 4th Oct 2012 at 20:43.
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MP Durham - DTV Airport
Yes! The MP is an idiot - (with history)! He was loathed as a councillor of Newcastle City Council, He has alienated true Labour members in North West Durham by supporting, for example, Stanley Town Council when he couldn't "get his way" in the larger Derwentide District Council.- However, I believe he is absolutely correct in calling for support for ONE Airport for the North East Region. - Surface links from Teeside (especially M'bro, Stockton & Hartlepool) need upgrading with Airport Coach & Express Rail links to Newcastle Airport with maximum travel time of less than an hour in comfortable Intercity style coaches. Hopefuly such a move will incentivise Airlines to increase the number & quality of routes to more European hubs and Intercontinental destinations direct from our region.
Last edited by VentureGo; 5th Oct 2012 at 05:51.
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VentureGo
I don't see an issue here.
DTV's main route is Amsterdam, and KLM would not operate it if it were not profitable, but KLM also have a good service from Newcastle - five flights a day on weekdays, so it's not as if the existence of DTV is somehow depriving Newcastle of hub connections.
DTV also do some holiday destination flights, but I think these are equally available from Newcastle.
Also I think Eastern's flights from DTV - mostly seeming to be oil/chemical related - duplicate those from Newcastle (though I'm not 100% sure on this), so again Newcastle isn't being deprived of a service by the presence of DTV.
As for public transport, apart from solo travellers, parking the car at the airport or taking a pre-booked taxi will always be much more convenient and probably cheaper. This applies equally to DTV and Newcastle, though I know the Metro reaches the latter. And if solo travellers are business people their firm will probably pay for a taxi anyway.
I don't see an issue here.
DTV's main route is Amsterdam, and KLM would not operate it if it were not profitable, but KLM also have a good service from Newcastle - five flights a day on weekdays, so it's not as if the existence of DTV is somehow depriving Newcastle of hub connections.
DTV also do some holiday destination flights, but I think these are equally available from Newcastle.
Also I think Eastern's flights from DTV - mostly seeming to be oil/chemical related - duplicate those from Newcastle (though I'm not 100% sure on this), so again Newcastle isn't being deprived of a service by the presence of DTV.
As for public transport, apart from solo travellers, parking the car at the airport or taking a pre-booked taxi will always be much more convenient and probably cheaper. This applies equally to DTV and Newcastle, though I know the Metro reaches the latter. And if solo travellers are business people their firm will probably pay for a taxi anyway.
Last edited by johnnychips; 4th Oct 2012 at 23:08. Reason: Additional stuff.
Lancelot - you might find the following page useful:
Airport Movements Saturday 6th October 2012
Airport Movements Saturday 6th October 2012
Provisional CAA stats September 2012
Main points:
- MME-AMS route saw a modest improvement but NCL-AMS had a bigger improvement
- MME-PMI took a big tumble
- MME continues to lose market share both for the Amsterdam route and for non-route-specific passengers numbers to NCL
Durham Tees Valley overall
Sep 2012 - 14,504 passengers, down 4.7%
Rolling year - 164,167 passengers, down 17.4%
Note the 17.4% decline in the rolling year figure is dominated by the loss of the Turkish sunshine routes which ended in August 2011. While the absence of any new sunshine routes at MME means more of the beach holiday traffic has moved long-term to NCL, this is not useful in measuring day-to-day performance at MME in the last few months.
The 4.7% decline in the Sep 2012 month figure versus Sep 2011 comes down to 3 things
- Loss of Catania + Verona charters (-588 passengers)
- Significant decline in Palma / Mallorca route (-458 passengers)
- Modest improvement on Amsterdam route (+215 passengers)
For comparison:
Newcastle overall
Sep 2012 - 487,746 passengers, up 1.6%
Rolling year - 4,351,792 passengers, down 0.1%
NE England market share
If we assume that MME and NCL compete to some degree with each other and that those living particularly in County Durham can choose either airport
MME's market share of commercial passenger traffic in NE England :
Sep 2011 - 3.08%
Sep 2012 - 2.89%
Aberdeen route:
MME Sep 2012 - 2,915 passengers, up 2.5% or +72 passengers
NCL Sep 2012 - 1,886 passengers, down 11.3% or -240 passengers
There seems to be a sustained, albeit rather small, growth story for MME on the Aberdeen route over the last few months.
Amsterdam route:
MME Sep 2012 - 9,181 passengers, up 2.4% or +215 passengers
NCL Sep 2012 - 25,001 passengers, up 4.1% or +995 passengers
Yes, an improvement in absolute terms, but again a loss of market share. MME has 26.9% of the NE England - KLM market in Sep 2012, down from 27.2% in Sep 2011
Palma route:
MME Sep 2012 - 1,847 passengers, down 19.9% or -458 passengers
NCL Sep 2012 - 38,353 passengers, down 0.3% or -97 passengers
There were 4 Saturdays in Sep 2011, but 5 Saturdays in Sep 2012.
Not sure what the story is with Palma...
- MME-AMS route saw a modest improvement but NCL-AMS had a bigger improvement
- MME-PMI took a big tumble
- MME continues to lose market share both for the Amsterdam route and for non-route-specific passengers numbers to NCL
Durham Tees Valley overall
Sep 2012 - 14,504 passengers, down 4.7%
Rolling year - 164,167 passengers, down 17.4%
Note the 17.4% decline in the rolling year figure is dominated by the loss of the Turkish sunshine routes which ended in August 2011. While the absence of any new sunshine routes at MME means more of the beach holiday traffic has moved long-term to NCL, this is not useful in measuring day-to-day performance at MME in the last few months.
The 4.7% decline in the Sep 2012 month figure versus Sep 2011 comes down to 3 things
- Loss of Catania + Verona charters (-588 passengers)
- Significant decline in Palma / Mallorca route (-458 passengers)
- Modest improvement on Amsterdam route (+215 passengers)
For comparison:
Newcastle overall
Sep 2012 - 487,746 passengers, up 1.6%
Rolling year - 4,351,792 passengers, down 0.1%
NE England market share
If we assume that MME and NCL compete to some degree with each other and that those living particularly in County Durham can choose either airport
MME's market share of commercial passenger traffic in NE England :
Sep 2011 - 3.08%
Sep 2012 - 2.89%
Aberdeen route:
MME Sep 2012 - 2,915 passengers, up 2.5% or +72 passengers
NCL Sep 2012 - 1,886 passengers, down 11.3% or -240 passengers
There seems to be a sustained, albeit rather small, growth story for MME on the Aberdeen route over the last few months.
Amsterdam route:
MME Sep 2012 - 9,181 passengers, up 2.4% or +215 passengers
NCL Sep 2012 - 25,001 passengers, up 4.1% or +995 passengers
Yes, an improvement in absolute terms, but again a loss of market share. MME has 26.9% of the NE England - KLM market in Sep 2012, down from 27.2% in Sep 2011
Palma route:
MME Sep 2012 - 1,847 passengers, down 19.9% or -458 passengers
NCL Sep 2012 - 38,353 passengers, down 0.3% or -97 passengers
There were 4 Saturdays in Sep 2011, but 5 Saturdays in Sep 2012.
Not sure what the story is with Palma...
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 15th Oct 2012 at 16:24.
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davidjohnson66,
Agreed but note the above summary covers virtually everything that is happening bar the Aberdeen schedule, & of course military transport related movements.
When you get down to analysing stats with such low volumes, then short term comparisons may not be accurate. However given the trends then things look grim
.
From my perspective those living locally that I have spoken to are now resigned to the fact that DTV is no longer offers a practical answer to their transport needs & have all but written the place off.
To turn this around if indeed pax growth is the direction management are looking to take, will require a serious amount of marketing with exciting new popular routes. I doubt that neither Peel has neither the ability nor the inclination to do so, & in any event this market is amply catered for by neighbouring airfields.
The 4.7% decline in the Sep 2012 month figure versus Sep 2011 comes down to 3 things
- Loss of Catania + Verona charters (-588 passengers)
- Significant decline in Palma / Mallorca route (-458 passengers)
- Modest improvement on Amsterdam route (+215 passengers)
- Loss of Catania + Verona charters (-588 passengers)
- Significant decline in Palma / Mallorca route (-458 passengers)
- Modest improvement on Amsterdam route (+215 passengers)
When you get down to analysing stats with such low volumes, then short term comparisons may not be accurate. However given the trends then things look grim
.From my perspective those living locally that I have spoken to are now resigned to the fact that DTV is no longer offers a practical answer to their transport needs & have all but written the place off.
To turn this around if indeed pax growth is the direction management are looking to take, will require a serious amount of marketing with exciting new popular routes. I doubt that neither Peel has neither the ability nor the inclination to do so, & in any event this market is amply catered for by neighbouring airfields.
Here we go again..
Unfortunately..Skyman is probably right..the patient is probably too far gone.
I optimistically thought we would get a few Scottish movements today as they have no fuel..of course I forgot..we have no firemen!!
Note a couple of aircraft have just arrived for scrapping..maybe that's the future(im sure I said that before) end the cost of commercial flying..amply covered by other airports and concentrate on ancillary tasks.
We could become the number 1 UK airfield for this type of business...we have the space?
Fire school,Cobhams, scraping,FRL and flying clubs..why not? it will still provide employment and airfield usage without the cost(no I don't work for Peel!)
Time to get real?
I optimistically thought we would get a few Scottish movements today as they have no fuel..of course I forgot..we have no firemen!!
Note a couple of aircraft have just arrived for scrapping..maybe that's the future(im sure I said that before) end the cost of commercial flying..amply covered by other airports and concentrate on ancillary tasks.
We could become the number 1 UK airfield for this type of business...we have the space?
Fire school,Cobhams, scraping,FRL and flying clubs..why not? it will still provide employment and airfield usage without the cost(no I don't work for Peel!)
Time to get real?
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3 or 4 things....
Ok, all of my comments are small fry in the scheme of things but nevertheless, relevant and I guess we're into talking about such small detail now....
DTVA Airport - Still interested to hear on the projected optimism from his posts - is something in the offing?
Sycamore - Two 737s arrived this afternoon for scrapping. In terms of increasing revenue but from non-passenger operations, this kind of thing has to be positive - even if it doesn't give the passenger numbers a lift.
Troops - Over the last few weeks, we've seen at times daily 777 and A330 movements. How are these captured? Do they compare well v last year? Its got to bring some revenue for the airport?
KLM - Firstly, pleased to see an improvement, particularly when last year we still had the Saturday night/Sunday morning service, so we're seeing an increase based on fewer rotations. Another quirk here is KLM's recent change of policy on business class seating, meaning no business class passenger is sat next to another on Euro flights. So, when we're looking at load factors, remember that 5 rows of business seats means 10 less seats to fill (2 empty seats per row). I was on a Friday afternoon flight back to Teesside a couple of weeks back and I have never seen business so full - we must have had 10 rows of Europe Select. I know the flight was fully booked - yet the load factor will probably tell you it had 60 seats out of 80 filled...which is 75%. So, when analysing the loads...we have to be mindful that 80% could be a dream scenario and low loads but a high quantity of business passengers is likely a bigger driver on the bottom line.
(BTW - 10 rows in business is probably an exception - never seen it like that and I travel KLM at least twice a month).
DTVA Airport - Still interested to hear on the projected optimism from his posts - is something in the offing?
Sycamore - Two 737s arrived this afternoon for scrapping. In terms of increasing revenue but from non-passenger operations, this kind of thing has to be positive - even if it doesn't give the passenger numbers a lift.
Troops - Over the last few weeks, we've seen at times daily 777 and A330 movements. How are these captured? Do they compare well v last year? Its got to bring some revenue for the airport?
KLM - Firstly, pleased to see an improvement, particularly when last year we still had the Saturday night/Sunday morning service, so we're seeing an increase based on fewer rotations. Another quirk here is KLM's recent change of policy on business class seating, meaning no business class passenger is sat next to another on Euro flights. So, when we're looking at load factors, remember that 5 rows of business seats means 10 less seats to fill (2 empty seats per row). I was on a Friday afternoon flight back to Teesside a couple of weeks back and I have never seen business so full - we must have had 10 rows of Europe Select. I know the flight was fully booked - yet the load factor will probably tell you it had 60 seats out of 80 filled...which is 75%. So, when analysing the loads...we have to be mindful that 80% could be a dream scenario and low loads but a high quantity of business passengers is likely a bigger driver on the bottom line.
(BTW - 10 rows in business is probably an exception - never seen it like that and I travel KLM at least twice a month).