British Airways: risk of turbulence on Willie Walsh’s flight path
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Quote from TeaCoffee:
No Cabin Crew have ever left BA to go fly for VIRGIN, it is all one way traffic.
Unquote.
TeaCoffee, the above statement from you is not correct. I know plenty of BA crew who have joined Virgin, Qantas, JAL, Emirates, Etihad and Easyjet to name a few.
Now, back to topic...
Gg
No Cabin Crew have ever left BA to go fly for VIRGIN, it is all one way traffic.
Unquote.
TeaCoffee, the above statement from you is not correct. I know plenty of BA crew who have joined Virgin, Qantas, JAL, Emirates, Etihad and Easyjet to name a few.
Now, back to topic...
Gg
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Safety, due fatigue, must obviously be a problem. How do you manage 18hr duties with current FTL's?
Paid accordingly, they smile all the way to the bank.
From some of the comments here, it would really appear that (more than) a few FD crew have truly forgotten how to actually work for a living.
I am truly sorry for these folks, for in these particular times, it is the effort of the employees, paid accordingly, that make the difference.
It is the smaller low cost airlines that will survive, all the rest will die on the vine.
Legacy airlines, unless they change accordingly, are in the same sinking boat.
Fact.
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Whistling past the graveyard are we 411A?
Profits assured.
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I'm with Bermudatriangle and the economists.
BA really think oil will peak at $190. Their wails of dispair are intended to cause stress and achieve concessions from employees and shareholders.
Remember weapons of mass distruction.
Remember global warning.
Remember the millenium bug.
All fear stories to obtain someones personal fantasy.
Be afraid, be very afraid. It always works when herding sheep.
BA really think oil will peak at $190. Their wails of dispair are intended to cause stress and achieve concessions from employees and shareholders.
Remember weapons of mass distruction.
Remember global warning.
Remember the millenium bug.
All fear stories to obtain someones personal fantasy.
Be afraid, be very afraid. It always works when herding sheep.
Paxing All Over The World
BA chiefs fly into heavy flak at AGM
The Independent By Nick Clark Wednesday, 16 July 2008
British Airways endured a bumpy ride at its annual general meeting in London yesterday, after shareholders voiced a series of grievances [snip] and called for chief executive Willie Walsh's head over Terminal 5's troubled opening.
[snip]
One investor said Mr Walsh should have resigned over the Terminal 5 affair, which instead saw two directors depart. He said: "Why were two long-standing junior managers dismissed when he is still here?" The shareholder turned on Mr Broughton, saying: "The chief executive should be considered for replacement, and so, given your complacency, should you."
The chairman and the chief executive apologised for T5's opening, which another shareholder called a "disaster". Mr Walsh said: "We made mistakes and we let people down. Though the mistakes were by no means the sole preserve of BA, we held our hands up, we took responsibility and we apologised." The executives added that it was now working well, and that they received daily letters and emails praising the terminal.
Article continues
BA chiefs fly into heavy flak at AGM - Business News, Business - The Independent
This demonstrates that Main Board Directors are running SOPs:
The Independent By Nick Clark Wednesday, 16 July 2008
British Airways endured a bumpy ride at its annual general meeting in London yesterday, after shareholders voiced a series of grievances [snip] and called for chief executive Willie Walsh's head over Terminal 5's troubled opening.
[snip]
One investor said Mr Walsh should have resigned over the Terminal 5 affair, which instead saw two directors depart. He said: "Why were two long-standing junior managers dismissed when he is still here?" The shareholder turned on Mr Broughton, saying: "The chief executive should be considered for replacement, and so, given your complacency, should you."
The chairman and the chief executive apologised for T5's opening, which another shareholder called a "disaster". Mr Walsh said: "We made mistakes and we let people down. Though the mistakes were by no means the sole preserve of BA, we held our hands up, we took responsibility and we apologised." The executives added that it was now working well, and that they received daily letters and emails praising the terminal.
Article continues
BA chiefs fly into heavy flak at AGM - Business News, Business - The Independent
This demonstrates that Main Board Directors are running SOPs:
- Fire the juniors [Apply t/o thrust]
- Apologise to prove that you are nice really [V1]
- Protect the Board at all costs [Positive Rate, Gear up]
- Keep apologising as you keep your job [Clear LTMA]
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What I am finding hard to understand in this thread is why so many people think that it is wrong for a senior cabin crew member working for BA to earn 50 to 60k pa. I gave the BA example as it was quoted earlier in this thread. It could be pilots, engineers in any airline. Any one in fact who joined the company( BA) many years ago. During their long career is it wrong for them to progress up the ladder and achieve increases along the way? If after over 40 years their salary is higher than others who joined after them on different pay scales, so what. Everyone makes a choice when taking a job and the fact that others may be earning a lot more than you because of when they started the job should be considered if it if you find it so unpalatable.
I understand that some pilots do not earn 60k sterling pa and that their training is a lot tougher than cabin crews. But it is not the fault of the senior cabin crew member who is earning 60k. But simply the fact that 40+ years of service have played there part in accruing that wage. It seems that wages and conditions are getting worse for all flying personnel but I don't think it seems fair to say those sort of pay scales are unjustified when so many different factors contribute to them length of employment being a major factor.
I understand that some pilots do not earn 60k sterling pa and that their training is a lot tougher than cabin crews. But it is not the fault of the senior cabin crew member who is earning 60k. But simply the fact that 40+ years of service have played there part in accruing that wage. It seems that wages and conditions are getting worse for all flying personnel but I don't think it seems fair to say those sort of pay scales are unjustified when so many different factors contribute to them length of employment being a major factor.
411A,
You didn't mention heavy crews in your first reply. Perhaps you've reconsidered the legality of what you had said!!!
As it happens it seems that some high end carriers and some low end carriers will do very well out of this cutback. I suspect its the mid-level ones that will struggle.
You didn't mention heavy crews in your first reply. Perhaps you've reconsidered the legality of what you had said!!!
As it happens it seems that some high end carriers and some low end carriers will do very well out of this cutback. I suspect its the mid-level ones that will struggle.
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Lets also add that tha UK isn`t the cheapest of places to live in the world.
As oil seems to be the current topic of the airline world, lets say that petrol in the north London area ranges from 117.9p-120.9p a litre.
UK house prices were erm high.. check out UK house estate agent websites, so renting? See the renting sites. Check out supermarket sites will give you a idea of our food prices. Car prices, check the UK sites especially vers the US ones.
Then convert those prices into US $ (yes I`m looking at those who live in the western US) or those who like to bang on regarding market rates.
As oil seems to be the current topic of the airline world, lets say that petrol in the north London area ranges from 117.9p-120.9p a litre.
UK house prices were erm high.. check out UK house estate agent websites, so renting? See the renting sites. Check out supermarket sites will give you a idea of our food prices. Car prices, check the UK sites especially vers the US ones.
Then convert those prices into US $ (yes I`m looking at those who live in the western US) or those who like to bang on regarding market rates.
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Having come over to ba from bmi...... THE MONEY IS NOT THAT MUCH MORE!!!! (Maybe a coulpe of hundred quid on a good month). Also other airlines cabin crew get promoted after no time at all. It still takes a number of years at ba. How many 19 yr old sccm's do you see on ba flights???? For us new contract crew who have done only a couple of years at ba we could be an sccm at most other airlines by now earning MORE money! Its not all the bed of roses its made out to be. Yes I love ba for the destinations, people etc but I dont earn any more money here than I would be on had I stayed with bmi and gone for sccm.
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I would like to see this report by so-called experts who think oil will be $70/bbl by 2009. I can only assume they have sold large quantities of oil for the last quarter of this year at prices well below $140/bbl and are desperately trying to talk the price down! Brokers are set to lose many $Billions in the next 12 months after having sold oil futures around $100/bbl.
Every forecast I have read in the recent past forecasts the price to remain stable at around $150/bbl and then to increase again to around$170/bbl by 2010. Not one report, of many I have read, forecasts a reduction below $130/bbl any time soon.
The era of cheap oil is long gone. (Unless you have an airline based above an oil well!)
Many years ago, the car producing countries around the world had numerous manufacturers churning out myriad models. Post war economies were tight and many manufacturers went under or were bought out by larger, stronger competitors. The airline industry is going through exactly the same process now.
It is no good trying to ignore the fact that there will be cutbacks, redundancies, takeovers and closures. Jobs will go and recovery will be slow and take many years, if it comes at all.
A few entrepreneurs have tried to start new car companies but almost all have failed in the past.
The airline industry will fare little better, I fear.
Every forecast I have read in the recent past forecasts the price to remain stable at around $150/bbl and then to increase again to around$170/bbl by 2010. Not one report, of many I have read, forecasts a reduction below $130/bbl any time soon.
The era of cheap oil is long gone. (Unless you have an airline based above an oil well!)
Many years ago, the car producing countries around the world had numerous manufacturers churning out myriad models. Post war economies were tight and many manufacturers went under or were bought out by larger, stronger competitors. The airline industry is going through exactly the same process now.
It is no good trying to ignore the fact that there will be cutbacks, redundancies, takeovers and closures. Jobs will go and recovery will be slow and take many years, if it comes at all.
A few entrepreneurs have tried to start new car companies but almost all have failed in the past.
The airline industry will fare little better, I fear.
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To all those having a pop at groundstaff and what they are currently earning,i will try and "enlighten" you as to the reasons why!
Within BA engineering,on the ramp side,we are currently short of,(depending on which manager you talk to), between 50 and 100 engineers,to successfully run the T4/T5 operation!. This is due to many factors ie retirements/people leaving for other careers etc. Initially management tried to "firefight this problem using TOIL,(time off in lieu),until they realised that many staff had "banked" so much time off, that it became a non viable solution!. Couple this with the problems encountered with the baggage operation, where cost cutting has left BA short of baggage handlers etc and the following scenario is now occuring on an almost daily basis......BA now has engineers working overtime carrying out baggage handling,(deemed essential as late/lost bags is bad PR) ...whilst other engineers are now doing overtime covering for the engineers doing baggage handling!!...crazy or what!
In the past this situation could have been alleviated somewhat by using hangar based staff to fill the shortfalls,but guess what,in another cost cutting move a few years ago the majority of hangar staff had thier HAL passes revoked in favour of a "less flexible" basic engineering pass.....HAL passes then costed about £100 each to set up plus the "Disclosure" element.
With regard to the hangar staff,overtime is a more or less long forgotten element of thier daily lives!....Here you get offered TOIL as a general re-imbursement and you have to dig your heels in to get offered paid overtime! Hence staff here,over the last few years, have become somewhat dissolusioned with the whole way the place is being operated and many have "jumped ship"
Nowadays it's not unusual to see an aircraft sit on a stand at base for long periods as there are simply no staff available to work it,nor is it strange to see two guys trying to change a GE90 on thier own!
BA corporately has simply cut back too far with regard to certain elements of it's staff and my personal fear is that this situation is only going to get worse!
Too few are now too stretched in order to run the operation and meltdown cannot be far away if the present trends continue!
Within BA engineering,on the ramp side,we are currently short of,(depending on which manager you talk to), between 50 and 100 engineers,to successfully run the T4/T5 operation!. This is due to many factors ie retirements/people leaving for other careers etc. Initially management tried to "firefight this problem using TOIL,(time off in lieu),until they realised that many staff had "banked" so much time off, that it became a non viable solution!. Couple this with the problems encountered with the baggage operation, where cost cutting has left BA short of baggage handlers etc and the following scenario is now occuring on an almost daily basis......BA now has engineers working overtime carrying out baggage handling,(deemed essential as late/lost bags is bad PR) ...whilst other engineers are now doing overtime covering for the engineers doing baggage handling!!...crazy or what!
In the past this situation could have been alleviated somewhat by using hangar based staff to fill the shortfalls,but guess what,in another cost cutting move a few years ago the majority of hangar staff had thier HAL passes revoked in favour of a "less flexible" basic engineering pass.....HAL passes then costed about £100 each to set up plus the "Disclosure" element.
With regard to the hangar staff,overtime is a more or less long forgotten element of thier daily lives!....Here you get offered TOIL as a general re-imbursement and you have to dig your heels in to get offered paid overtime! Hence staff here,over the last few years, have become somewhat dissolusioned with the whole way the place is being operated and many have "jumped ship"
Nowadays it's not unusual to see an aircraft sit on a stand at base for long periods as there are simply no staff available to work it,nor is it strange to see two guys trying to change a GE90 on thier own!
BA corporately has simply cut back too far with regard to certain elements of it's staff and my personal fear is that this situation is only going to get worse!
Too few are now too stretched in order to run the operation and meltdown cannot be far away if the present trends continue!
Paxing All Over The World
CHINOOKER gives an admirable description of the self-inflicted 'death by a thousand small cuts'. The same process is being used on the National Health Service, stories of which I hear through my work every week but this example is from a friend in hospital last year: Staff numbers were so low that nursing staff were helping out in one ward for an hour, then helping out in the next and then the next - because no ward had a full complement of staff.
When an old company (such as BA) cuts back, the staff will expand their workload to try and keep the service as good as it was. This is old fashioned human pride in their work. BUT, when the mgmt then claim that the improved productivity proves that the staff were being lazy beforehand ...?
So the mgmt decide on some more cuts. Now it is usually the new and younger staff who do unpaid overtime to fill the gaps in the expectation of improving their career.
There are other steps in this path but you all know what happens - the company reaches the point at which failure arrives VERY suddenly because all the little cuts have reached the point where too much blood is being lost. I am NOT saying BA is at that point but let's just say they appear to be getting too close to the stall and it may not be too long before the stick starts to shake.
When an old company (such as BA) cuts back, the staff will expand their workload to try and keep the service as good as it was. This is old fashioned human pride in their work. BUT, when the mgmt then claim that the improved productivity proves that the staff were being lazy beforehand ...?
So the mgmt decide on some more cuts. Now it is usually the new and younger staff who do unpaid overtime to fill the gaps in the expectation of improving their career.
There are other steps in this path but you all know what happens - the company reaches the point at which failure arrives VERY suddenly because all the little cuts have reached the point where too much blood is being lost. I am NOT saying BA is at that point but let's just say they appear to be getting too close to the stall and it may not be too long before the stick starts to shake.
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In the old days if you 'took responsibility' for some thing i came down on your head if it went wrong.
Now apparently it means sacking a couple of minions...
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Chinooker: You are so right about the lack of important staff in BA that affects the operation.
Every weekend and Bank Holiday, BA management prove that the operation can survive without most of them. And with the run-up to whatever is in store with Operation Columbus, it is noticeable how many managers there are with Australian accents being recruited.
As for Gg comments on ex-BA crew flying for the host of airlines she mentions, that is simply not true. In fact it is complete rubbish; te odd one maybe but not many. Most ex-Mainline BA crew went to the SFG after having to RETIRE from BA because they were 55. I can't think'of any other reason why Gg would be there other than that.
Every weekend and Bank Holiday, BA management prove that the operation can survive without most of them. And with the run-up to whatever is in store with Operation Columbus, it is noticeable how many managers there are with Australian accents being recruited.
As for Gg comments on ex-BA crew flying for the host of airlines she mentions, that is simply not true. In fact it is complete rubbish; te odd one maybe but not many. Most ex-Mainline BA crew went to the SFG after having to RETIRE from BA because they were 55. I can't think'of any other reason why Gg would be there other than that.
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Is it untrue? I've known cabin crew leave BA for both Virgin and Cathay Pacific, not to mention the corporate sector. Now how do we explain the shortage of cabin crew every weekend and bank holiday?
Mach 3
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rubik101,
Oil prices come down? Impossible!
What? You mean like it was impossible for UK house prices to come down?
Every single economists report you might have read for the last 10 years would have backed you up on that right?
Oil prices come down? Impossible!
What? You mean like it was impossible for UK house prices to come down?
Every single economists report you might have read for the last 10 years would have backed you up on that right?