British Airways: risk of turbulence on Willie Walsh’s flight path
Controversial, moi?
As I have said in an earlier post, many BA cabin crew are on new contracts already and are in the majority.
In your post where you are offensive about Budapest you also mention your new SLK. Being able to afford a new SLK when doing a job which requires a few weeks training and no particular skills other than an ability to talk to people rather proves the point that you are grossly overpaid.
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And Freddie Laker. How low was his cost base?
Laker Airways went bust owing huge amounts of money (although there were extenuating circumstances).
I have to say, it is my contention, that whilst Laker was a maverick (The Henry Ford of air travel?), he was somewhat instrumental in destroying any residual pricing power in the industry.
Whenever you decouple the price of a service from its intrinsic cost, you're complicating your business model...
I hazard a guess most reasonable individuals would quite willingly take a less militant view on the protection of their T&C's in a climate where their very job was threatened.
Thankfully this thread shows you're a minority voice....
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M.Mouse, what do you mean about new and old pay scales converging? I'm new contract, and when I reach the top of the main crew pay scale, will be earning signigicantly less than somebody at the top of the old contract main crew pay scale. Just wanted to point that out.
I think it's fairly clear that WW was brought in with a remit to slash costs and increase profits. As IFS must be the biggest department, it seems pretty logical to start there (although I don't know if IFS headcount costs more than say flight crew headcount?). Personally, I think there's a game being played out here. I think Columbus was leaked on purpose to send cabin crew into a tail spin. And it worked!
I think it's fairly clear that WW was brought in with a remit to slash costs and increase profits. As IFS must be the biggest department, it seems pretty logical to start there (although I don't know if IFS headcount costs more than say flight crew headcount?). Personally, I think there's a game being played out here. I think Columbus was leaked on purpose to send cabin crew into a tail spin. And it worked!
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M.Mouse
It just shows that you don't fully understand the cabin crew job, in the same way that many cabin crew don't understand what pilots do.
I have experience both and I always remember that is the skill of the cabin crew to work as a competent team, communicate effectively and fight a fire that may one day save my life should a fire break inflight in the cabin. ( This is just one many examples)
doing a job which requires a few weeks training and no particular skills other than an ability to talk to people rather proves the point that you are grossly overpaid
I have experience both and I always remember that is the skill of the cabin crew to work as a competent team, communicate effectively and fight a fire that may one day save my life should a fire break inflight in the cabin. ( This is just one many examples)
Controversial, moi?
...cabin crew to work as a competent team, communicate effectively and fight a fire that may one day save my life should a fire break inflight in the cabin. ( This is just one many examples)
That is a worry.
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M.Mouse
You hit the nail!
In fact yes it is less effective, this is why the fire fighting procedure had to be changed when 3 crew where introduced on the A319s at LGW, it had always had involved 4 people.
So it already shows how on the name of cost cutting, safety procedures had to be ammended,...
Saving measures sometimes cut corners, and this is not good.
What i was referring to anyway is at the lack of awareness that you displayed with your comment of what skills the cabin crew role require.
Whe are going from Safety, Efficiency, Economy to Economy, Efficiency and last safety in our industry, and this will show on the statistics sooner than what we think.
Does that mean that the LGW BA CC earning a fraction of the salaries of those employed at LHR are likely to be less effective?
That is a worry.
That is a worry.
In fact yes it is less effective, this is why the fire fighting procedure had to be changed when 3 crew where introduced on the A319s at LGW, it had always had involved 4 people.
So it already shows how on the name of cost cutting, safety procedures had to be ammended,...
Saving measures sometimes cut corners, and this is not good.
What i was referring to anyway is at the lack of awareness that you displayed with your comment of what skills the cabin crew role require.
Whe are going from Safety, Efficiency, Economy to Economy, Efficiency and last safety in our industry, and this will show on the statistics sooner than what we think.
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eagle21,
I've done both roles too in the airline context....
The CAA mandate minimum crew complements...presumably on the basis of some fairly rigorous risk analyses...
I suggest the statistics show no appreciable increase in risk when operating aircraft with less than 150 seats using 3 CC members...
I also agree with M.Mouse and suggest that an airline paying CC members up to 2-3 times what an A&E Nurse might make is, frankly, ludicrous...
Still it's your airline....
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if offered the choice, in the near future, of a significant pay-cut or redundancy...
I've done both roles too in the airline context....
The CAA mandate minimum crew complements...presumably on the basis of some fairly rigorous risk analyses...
I suggest the statistics show no appreciable increase in risk when operating aircraft with less than 150 seats using 3 CC members...
I also agree with M.Mouse and suggest that an airline paying CC members up to 2-3 times what an A&E Nurse might make is, frankly, ludicrous...
Still it's your airline....
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if offered the choice, in the near future, of a significant pay-cut or redundancy...
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I have just waded through this tumultuous thread.
My observations: Valid positions from both sides of the argument. In my lifetime experience in Aviation, here is what will happen:
Management's not stupid. They see the combination of environmental pressures and Oil company greed converging which will likely wipe out most of the world's airlines at $200/barrel. They are already packing their golden parachutes (getting ready to raid pension funds,) just in case, so they can join 411A (a most interesting individual who adds a lot to this debate) on the golf course in Arizona, or so they can rub elbows with Dick Cheney at the Ballroom in Dubai.
Worse case scenario: They will use this crisis to completely gut all pay and benefits all sides of the cockpit door. Only an SOS (industry-wide Suspension of Service) has any chance of bringing government to it's senses and excluding the ruinous taxes that hamper the industry. Both management and Labor could join together to halt this erosion of Airline fortunes and erosion of airline safety for passengers. Even if this very necessary public transportation sector is made tax-free, many airlines are still going down anyway as credit is drying up with the 2/3 bank defaults to go in that distressed deregulated industry.
Yep: The Texas Chimp has screwed us all big time. Rather than bickering over the few slim bananas left, we need to realize this is part of a bigger global war against the middle class. We must make friends in government in short order, or we will go the way of the transatlantic Ocean steamers: Made Obsolete by plummeting world fortunes and better ways of getting your business done across the ocean (cheap virtual conference perhaps.)
How could this be done? Get your management to approve for the first time in it's history, a Union message on the PA to your captive audience, that they should consider signing a total airline tax exemption petition in order to guarantee adequate maintenance and crew rest for their safety's sake.
Soliciting Safety is bound to meet with success, and be a winner for everybody until (if ever) oil prices stabilize.
All comments welcome. What do you think?
pac
My observations: Valid positions from both sides of the argument. In my lifetime experience in Aviation, here is what will happen:
Management's not stupid. They see the combination of environmental pressures and Oil company greed converging which will likely wipe out most of the world's airlines at $200/barrel. They are already packing their golden parachutes (getting ready to raid pension funds,) just in case, so they can join 411A (a most interesting individual who adds a lot to this debate) on the golf course in Arizona, or so they can rub elbows with Dick Cheney at the Ballroom in Dubai.
Worse case scenario: They will use this crisis to completely gut all pay and benefits all sides of the cockpit door. Only an SOS (industry-wide Suspension of Service) has any chance of bringing government to it's senses and excluding the ruinous taxes that hamper the industry. Both management and Labor could join together to halt this erosion of Airline fortunes and erosion of airline safety for passengers. Even if this very necessary public transportation sector is made tax-free, many airlines are still going down anyway as credit is drying up with the 2/3 bank defaults to go in that distressed deregulated industry.
Yep: The Texas Chimp has screwed us all big time. Rather than bickering over the few slim bananas left, we need to realize this is part of a bigger global war against the middle class. We must make friends in government in short order, or we will go the way of the transatlantic Ocean steamers: Made Obsolete by plummeting world fortunes and better ways of getting your business done across the ocean (cheap virtual conference perhaps.)
How could this be done? Get your management to approve for the first time in it's history, a Union message on the PA to your captive audience, that they should consider signing a total airline tax exemption petition in order to guarantee adequate maintenance and crew rest for their safety's sake.
Soliciting Safety is bound to meet with success, and be a winner for everybody until (if ever) oil prices stabilize.
All comments welcome. What do you think?
pac
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Get your management to approve for the first time in it's history, a Union message on the PA to your captive audience...
What is needed (in the USA especially) is realistic ticket prices, to reflect the cost of doing business.
Will less folks fly?
More than likely.
However, this will have a side benefit...less air traffic, less need for more runways/ATC controllers, etc.
The downside?
Junior folks out the door on furlough, and for the ones that remain, slower advancement to the LHS, especially now that the max retirement age has risen to 65.
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'and excluding the ruinous taxes that hamper the industry'
pacplayer;Some very good points but for the above as in the UK the industry has been short changing the government and the tax payer for decades, time to face upp to the hard facts and why is it middle classes issues?
pacplayer;Some very good points but for the above as in the UK the industry has been short changing the government and the tax payer for decades, time to face upp to the hard facts and why is it middle classes issues?
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As mentioned above, less traffic is a silver lining for all, in many ways, not least, BAA who will not need all these new runways they want in the SE of UK. Fewer and less attractive jobs in aviation will mean a downturn for training schools, agencies, outsource and ancillary companies, caterers, engineering and so on and so on. The loss of jobs in all these places will be considerable, leading to further drains on the Social Security budget, and all this at a time of falling revenues for the treasury. The rise in fuel tax will soon be offset by the reduction in consumption as people tighten their belts. Less, spending, less tax revenue, more borrowing, low growth, inflation due to rising prices....result..well you don't need a crystal ball to see where we are going.
If anyone thinks that life will be the same or even only slightly worse in the 2010s, they are living on another planet.
Airlines will be among the first to reduce capacity, reduce costs and retrench in an effort to survive. Some are better able to adapt than others. I would suggest that airlines that are already lean and mean, the bottom feeders, will be the survivors while the dinosaurs become extinct.
Luxury or gas guzzling cars, SLKs perhaps, holidays to beautiful, clean civilised Budapest, eating out and the kids trips to Alton Towers will be the first to suffer, among others.
Individuals, including PIB, might want to look long into the future and plan accordingly. It ain't going to get any better in the near or distant future.
Thread drift rather alters the thrust of the original title with regard to WW and BA because it will affect the whole aviation industry.
If anyone thinks that life will be the same or even only slightly worse in the 2010s, they are living on another planet.
Airlines will be among the first to reduce capacity, reduce costs and retrench in an effort to survive. Some are better able to adapt than others. I would suggest that airlines that are already lean and mean, the bottom feeders, will be the survivors while the dinosaurs become extinct.
Luxury or gas guzzling cars, SLKs perhaps, holidays to beautiful, clean civilised Budapest, eating out and the kids trips to Alton Towers will be the first to suffer, among others.
Individuals, including PIB, might want to look long into the future and plan accordingly. It ain't going to get any better in the near or distant future.
Thread drift rather alters the thrust of the original title with regard to WW and BA because it will affect the whole aviation industry.
Last edited by rubik101; 7th Jul 2008 at 14:28. Reason: Grammar
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PiB,
You suggested that Jetsetlady and myself is the same person. Not true at all. We can prove it.
You are doing yourself no favours here at all.
Claiming that your son did a PPL at 17 but decided on a different career. How old were you when he was born? 4? 8? 11? I'm saying this, because you age is showing as 34...
Your offensive remark about Budapest being in a third world country shows that you're living on a different planet than the rest of us.
You seem to accuse anyone who works for BA who don't agree with you to be management.
Your head seems either too far up in the clouds or up your own backside, I can't quite figure out which one it is.
You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Cuts are going to happen (they've been happening for years). It does not mean I agree with it, I'm just looking at it from a survival aspect.
Yes, I could go and work in the City or wherever I pretty much like (I do have a degree or two) for better money than I earn now. However, I would rather have job satisfaction and be happy within myself, as long as I can earn enough to house, feed and clothe myself, instead of earning plenty more money and not be happy. Money isn't everything for everyone.
As has been mentioned on this thread before, where were the unions when SFLGW t&c's were agreed? Did you contact management when Alpha Catering Scotland had to cut 600 jobs because BA decided to do return catering on Domestics? Did you give any support to LGW when we were cut to the bone? We've had most of our European night stops taken away. We lost most of our DF routes. We operate with 3 crew on most short haul flights. We earn less than LHR folks (didn't you mention something about a EU law preventing this from happening?). Have you been involved in the cuts at other departments in BA? They are being scaled down in a way we've never imagined. Some of our ground staff (check-in, drivers, ops etc) have had to apply for a flying job or leave altogether. I can't see you defending these colleagues who've been with the company for probably a lot longer than you.
Now, if you could maybe grow up a bit, and stop throwing your toys out of the pram and learn to not be so arrogant, the world will be a happier place, I reckon.
Gg
(apologies to everyone else for another long post)
You suggested that Jetsetlady and myself is the same person. Not true at all. We can prove it.
You are doing yourself no favours here at all.
Claiming that your son did a PPL at 17 but decided on a different career. How old were you when he was born? 4? 8? 11? I'm saying this, because you age is showing as 34...
Your offensive remark about Budapest being in a third world country shows that you're living on a different planet than the rest of us.
You seem to accuse anyone who works for BA who don't agree with you to be management.
Your head seems either too far up in the clouds or up your own backside, I can't quite figure out which one it is.
You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Cuts are going to happen (they've been happening for years). It does not mean I agree with it, I'm just looking at it from a survival aspect.
Yes, I could go and work in the City or wherever I pretty much like (I do have a degree or two) for better money than I earn now. However, I would rather have job satisfaction and be happy within myself, as long as I can earn enough to house, feed and clothe myself, instead of earning plenty more money and not be happy. Money isn't everything for everyone.
As has been mentioned on this thread before, where were the unions when SFLGW t&c's were agreed? Did you contact management when Alpha Catering Scotland had to cut 600 jobs because BA decided to do return catering on Domestics? Did you give any support to LGW when we were cut to the bone? We've had most of our European night stops taken away. We lost most of our DF routes. We operate with 3 crew on most short haul flights. We earn less than LHR folks (didn't you mention something about a EU law preventing this from happening?). Have you been involved in the cuts at other departments in BA? They are being scaled down in a way we've never imagined. Some of our ground staff (check-in, drivers, ops etc) have had to apply for a flying job or leave altogether. I can't see you defending these colleagues who've been with the company for probably a lot longer than you.
Now, if you could maybe grow up a bit, and stop throwing your toys out of the pram and learn to not be so arrogant, the world will be a happier place, I reckon.
Gg
(apologies to everyone else for another long post)
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This thread has been hijacked, once again, by attention-whores and ego-massagers. Their input has now largely gone. Had they demonstrated sufficient maturity of debate, their input would be welcome, however.... well, they didn't, so rather than close a sensible thread, their little gems can disappear into the ether. Problem with that, then other site go towards. Please.
What part of "play the ball, not the player" is too hard for some of you to grasp? In the future, myself and the other moderators won't bother wasting the 2 minutes of our lives it takes to write notices like this, it'll just be done, to keep the site on track editorially.
Debate the topic, leave the personal attacks and ego-massaging to one side and we'll all get along.
What part of "play the ball, not the player" is too hard for some of you to grasp? In the future, myself and the other moderators won't bother wasting the 2 minutes of our lives it takes to write notices like this, it'll just be done, to keep the site on track editorially.
Debate the topic, leave the personal attacks and ego-massaging to one side and we'll all get along.
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HZ123,
I intended to answer how I feel that Labor statues in the U.S. have been largely ignored by the courts, and that Aviation's only hope, imho, is to have a solution develop where labor law is still strong.... Like at BA.
I intended to answer how I feel that Labor statues in the U.S. have been largely ignored by the courts, and that Aviation's only hope, imho, is to have a solution develop where labor law is still strong.... Like at BA.
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Originally Posted by HZ123
If you are LGW crew then the state of their shorthaul a/c are crap and the 77 are little better. Not that we can boast about the LHR stuff other than being newer therefore less worn.
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Up the workers!
This is my first post! I have read the whole thread and I was at the BASSA meeting last Monday at Bedfont.
Having been someone who volunteered to help on the changeover to T5, I feel very let down by British Airways over their proposals with Operation Columbus. It is a stab in the back.
Although PiB has an 'abrasive' style, I do agree with a lot of what he says. We must stand up and be counted. I do not agree with Gg and Jet Set Girl that all of this is inevitable. They have nothing to give up anyway at Gatwick.
Wilie Walsh has been very lucky to hang onto his job after T5. Why?
I would support industrial action and it would be a fight to the death.
Having been someone who volunteered to help on the changeover to T5, I feel very let down by British Airways over their proposals with Operation Columbus. It is a stab in the back.
Although PiB has an 'abrasive' style, I do agree with a lot of what he says. We must stand up and be counted. I do not agree with Gg and Jet Set Girl that all of this is inevitable. They have nothing to give up anyway at Gatwick.
Wilie Walsh has been very lucky to hang onto his job after T5. Why?
I would support industrial action and it would be a fight to the death.
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I want to pick up on a point mentioned earlier in this thread about British Airways announcing cuts to this winter season, whilst at the same time expanding Openskies.
Are British Airways shareholders aware of the resources that are being used to support Openskies, when cut backs are expected at BA Mainline out of LHR? OS I am told will be a loss making operation for years in the current climate. Other airlines are trying to save money, yet BA are spending many millions supporting this new venture.
I have just got back from JFK/JFK back to back trip. Whilst our load factors on the 747-400 were almost 100%, groundstaff at JFK said that the OS 757 only at best has loads of up to 30 passengers. With the winter approaching, will this be sustainable? How much shareholder money is BA prepared to lose on Openskies?
Are British Airways shareholders aware of the resources that are being used to support Openskies, when cut backs are expected at BA Mainline out of LHR? OS I am told will be a loss making operation for years in the current climate. Other airlines are trying to save money, yet BA are spending many millions supporting this new venture.
I have just got back from JFK/JFK back to back trip. Whilst our load factors on the 747-400 were almost 100%, groundstaff at JFK said that the OS 757 only at best has loads of up to 30 passengers. With the winter approaching, will this be sustainable? How much shareholder money is BA prepared to lose on Openskies?