British Airways: risk of turbulence on Willie Walsh’s flight path
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411A might be a cynical old f**t ("40 years in the business", etc.), but try to ignore this trait and you may find he speaks some valid points.
Good fun reading him and even more fun reading the reactions. I reckon he has a strong point with BA though (even though T5 certainly DOES work pretty good now).
Oh, and I see you are in located in AZ, 411A - just where I am right now (but I am on vacation from UK), so maybe we should meet for a beer and sort all this out?? PM me.
Good fun reading him and even more fun reading the reactions. I reckon he has a strong point with BA though (even though T5 certainly DOES work pretty good now).
Oh, and I see you are in located in AZ, 411A - just where I am right now (but I am on vacation from UK), so maybe we should meet for a beer and sort all this out?? PM me.
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VAFFPAX as luck would have it see the following link
yours sincerely Nic
Travellers back no-frills airlines over British Airways - Telegraph
yours sincerely Nic
Travellers back no-frills airlines over British Airways - Telegraph
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Originally Posted by Poof in Boots
Just because a cabin crew union is strong, protects its members interests and ensures they have good pay and conditions, the Flight Crew here say that it is "militant". It's about time that they did a better job of standing up to predatory management.
Jsl
P.S. Why is it, that as soon as someone dares to disagree with you, you call them a management clone? Not very original, is it? Highflyer, I'm jetset lady. I'll introduce myself, to save PiB having to do it!
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See-Saw?
Poof in boots, it's very difficult to see quite what points you are trying to make. In one post you are extremely critical of the the lack of effective management, hence inertia, and in the next you are suggesting that things will not change for you because you have a strong union. Is it the lack of management which keeps things the same or the strength of your unions?
You suggest that reduction in T&Cs will never happen because you and your fellow aircrew run the airline.
When reality hits you, as it eventually will, you will see, as previously pointed out to you but conveniently ignored, that unions count for nothing when progress demands changes. Whether the changes are in technology, machinery, working practices, benefits or pensions, all fall by the wayside in the face of the inevitable weight of the demands of the company management.
You might survive the changes if you agree to the new T&Cs, if you are senior enough. You might choose to leave in the face of the degradation of your T&Cs and reduction in salary and allowances or you can stay and pay your bilss, like so many others will be forced to do.
And I am not management of any airline, simply a realist.
Welcome to the new era!
You suggest that reduction in T&Cs will never happen because you and your fellow aircrew run the airline.
When reality hits you, as it eventually will, you will see, as previously pointed out to you but conveniently ignored, that unions count for nothing when progress demands changes. Whether the changes are in technology, machinery, working practices, benefits or pensions, all fall by the wayside in the face of the inevitable weight of the demands of the company management.
You might survive the changes if you agree to the new T&Cs, if you are senior enough. You might choose to leave in the face of the degradation of your T&Cs and reduction in salary and allowances or you can stay and pay your bilss, like so many others will be forced to do.
And I am not management of any airline, simply a realist.
Welcome to the new era!
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Question of the Era
Just as an aside, there is a £250 prize (payable in £1 off coupons for trips on now defunct airlines - ok I'm cheap get over it) for anyone who can name either a company or an industry that has had militant / intransigent / piss-poor industrial relations and has then gone on to be successful?
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VAFFPAX as luck would have it see the following link
yours sincerely Nic
Travellers back no-frills airlines over British Airways - Telegraph
yours sincerely Nic
Travellers back no-frills airlines over British Airways - Telegraph
S.
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Ryanair (47 per cent) was considered the least desirable of the low-cost airlines. A spokesman for the airline dismissed the report, adding that the "annual member survey is about as useful as a baggage tag in Terminal 5".
BTW: Ryanair must have a very good PR agency (or a PR agency that buys hacks very good bottles of whiskey) as they always manage to appear towards the end of a story if indeed the story even appears in the press (i.e. several runway overshoot 'non-incident' incidents).
positionand hold;
Perhaps in spots, but I think most here tend to eschew polarized thinking in favour of at least some subtlety. The universal solution 411a offers regardless of transgression, afaics, is showing "recalcitrant" (read, they disagree with his views) and otherwise "troublesome" (read unionized) or merely "whining" employees, the door.
While I agree there are cases in which firings are deserved and most airlines have adopted similar safety reporting policies which clearly exclude intentional or criminal acts, most screw-ups are cases of helmet-fires, or possibly the absence of a robust safety culture (which, under SMS, is the sole responsibility of the CEO and his/her executive) or a lack of clarity in SOPs. People do not set out to make mistakes in aviation, (although there are some pretty hairy intentional acts committed in the name of "watch this...")*. but 411a's clearly expressed attitude towards underlings has shown that there are no excuses and that summary firing is the only solution. For a lot of good reasons, I and likely many, disagree.
Flight safety and a robust safety culture are not created by threats or cajoling of employees and is instead an immature response, (not personal immaturity, but in terms of what is known today vice 40 years ago) about flight safety. As well, a manager who has the attitude which 411a has consistently expressed as showing people who have made mistakes or who have expressed contrarian opinions "the door" is really poor management because, if actually carried out, (and we have no reason to believe the expressed attitude has actually been put into practise at his company), it is an extremely expensive solution not only in terms of settlements, (and I have seen my share of these situations) but also in terms of the experience and training lost and which must be replaced.
Perhaps in better times they did, but today's corporations do not deserve employee loyalty but nor do they deserve continuously unrequited employee wrath. Corporations are not (and never were) "caregivers which cater to employee welfare" nor do most employees expect such today. That is not "the bargain" and, with almost no exception, working for an organization is a free individual choice - if one doesn't like what's going on, then they should fight for change or leave. However, the practicalities of leaving, especially within a seniority system, are such that staying and fighting for solutions is almost universally the only opportunity. I understand that hatred for anything "union" is automatic
Fourty years in the business grants anyone significant benefit of doubt. Such experience gives anyone the right to comment and to be given, initially anyway, wide and respectful acceptance but such "time in" does not automatically make one right or even wise.
The key here is flight safety and SMS. Whacking flight crew with a rolled management newspaper across the nose and calling for firings rather than intelligently determining the source of the problems through various flight data/safety reporting programs as contemplated under SMS or in more serious cases through employee assistance programs, does not resolve the original problem and heightens risk thereby. There are plenty of ignorant, short-sighted, parsimonious operators still out there who prove this point every day, in some cases tragically.
That the repartee between 411a and many responders is entertaining, there is no doubt; this is an anonymous forum and people may say anything for a miriad of personal reasons including pretense, attention or entertaining oneself, and do. But if the representations made by someone in management authority are the reality at least at one person's organization, then the undercurrents and implications in such attitudes towards employees in terms of building a constructive safety culture which also gets business done, are serious and that problem is, after all, our only interest in aviation.
411A might be a cynical old f**t ("40 years in the business", etc.), but try to ignore this trait and you may find he speaks some valid points.
While I agree there are cases in which firings are deserved and most airlines have adopted similar safety reporting policies which clearly exclude intentional or criminal acts, most screw-ups are cases of helmet-fires, or possibly the absence of a robust safety culture (which, under SMS, is the sole responsibility of the CEO and his/her executive) or a lack of clarity in SOPs. People do not set out to make mistakes in aviation, (although there are some pretty hairy intentional acts committed in the name of "watch this...")*. but 411a's clearly expressed attitude towards underlings has shown that there are no excuses and that summary firing is the only solution. For a lot of good reasons, I and likely many, disagree.
Flight safety and a robust safety culture are not created by threats or cajoling of employees and is instead an immature response, (not personal immaturity, but in terms of what is known today vice 40 years ago) about flight safety. As well, a manager who has the attitude which 411a has consistently expressed as showing people who have made mistakes or who have expressed contrarian opinions "the door" is really poor management because, if actually carried out, (and we have no reason to believe the expressed attitude has actually been put into practise at his company), it is an extremely expensive solution not only in terms of settlements, (and I have seen my share of these situations) but also in terms of the experience and training lost and which must be replaced.
Perhaps in better times they did, but today's corporations do not deserve employee loyalty but nor do they deserve continuously unrequited employee wrath. Corporations are not (and never were) "caregivers which cater to employee welfare" nor do most employees expect such today. That is not "the bargain" and, with almost no exception, working for an organization is a free individual choice - if one doesn't like what's going on, then they should fight for change or leave. However, the practicalities of leaving, especially within a seniority system, are such that staying and fighting for solutions is almost universally the only opportunity. I understand that hatred for anything "union" is automatic
Fourty years in the business grants anyone significant benefit of doubt. Such experience gives anyone the right to comment and to be given, initially anyway, wide and respectful acceptance but such "time in" does not automatically make one right or even wise.
The key here is flight safety and SMS. Whacking flight crew with a rolled management newspaper across the nose and calling for firings rather than intelligently determining the source of the problems through various flight data/safety reporting programs as contemplated under SMS or in more serious cases through employee assistance programs, does not resolve the original problem and heightens risk thereby. There are plenty of ignorant, short-sighted, parsimonious operators still out there who prove this point every day, in some cases tragically.
That the repartee between 411a and many responders is entertaining, there is no doubt; this is an anonymous forum and people may say anything for a miriad of personal reasons including pretense, attention or entertaining oneself, and do. But if the representations made by someone in management authority are the reality at least at one person's organization, then the undercurrents and implications in such attitudes towards employees in terms of building a constructive safety culture which also gets business done, are serious and that problem is, after all, our only interest in aviation.
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Ah, the sound of 411a calling for everyone to accept another paycut whilst he enjoys the fruits of years of offshore living. Got those Tristars flying yet? Still hate unions? Of course, the way to make yours work is to set up in Mexico and pay wages that would make a Guadalajara Mill Owner blush, perhaps in credits at the Company Store like those mining towns of old? Change the record mate - no amount of wage cuts will compensate for oil at $150 and up - as Anatole Kaletsky says in The Times, Western economies as a whole are finished at these levels, let alone airlines.
Go out and play golf and enjoy your retirement mate and leave those of us stupid enough to go on working for the self serving greedy shower who call themselves airline management (certainly the BA lot anyway - $850 million fine anyone?) alone for once!
I have to admit one thing -any wannabe mad enough to come in now to fly is wasting their life - what point in a flying career 411a, who should take it up, do you think? Fly for food anyone - what a waste of space.
Go out and play golf and enjoy your retirement mate and leave those of us stupid enough to go on working for the self serving greedy shower who call themselves airline management (certainly the BA lot anyway - $850 million fine anyone?) alone for once!
I have to admit one thing -any wannabe mad enough to come in now to fly is wasting their life - what point in a flying career 411a, who should take it up, do you think? Fly for food anyone - what a waste of space.
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I have to say I read the posts from BA crew and I really laugh. I do admire you for wanting to hang onto to your terms and conditions. However if it is really true that your senior flight attendants are getting paid £50-60k then something needs to change. The cost of oil is going to really damage your business moving forward and everyone is going to have to take a little bit of pain.
People can stick their head in the sand all they want but the cost of oil will catch up with everyone soon and only the strongest will survive, there are no guarantees who that will be.
People can stick their head in the sand all they want but the cost of oil will catch up with everyone soon and only the strongest will survive, there are no guarantees who that will be.
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And what do you do perchance? How long before your job is "offshored" by some bright spark? Lawyer - try Bangalore, accountant, ditto, computer software, try Mumbai, small business owner in manufacturing? Try Shanghai.
BA pilots are not overpaid in relation to either productivity - at legal limits in long and short haul, or for the responsibility inherent in the job either. There are those who will always bemoan BA for being on a par in pilot pay with the European National Carriers, yet that is the benchmark and even that is not, in my view and in comparison with similar professional occupations in the South East, that much. Laugh all you like at BA. I'll be laughing at you when your job goes too.
BA pilots are not overpaid in relation to either productivity - at legal limits in long and short haul, or for the responsibility inherent in the job either. There are those who will always bemoan BA for being on a par in pilot pay with the European National Carriers, yet that is the benchmark and even that is not, in my view and in comparison with similar professional occupations in the South East, that much. Laugh all you like at BA. I'll be laughing at you when your job goes too.
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If you think that is bad I can assure you that some of BA ramp staff take £40000 - £59999 and they are industrial staff. WW has problems whatever way he looks and it has all been orchestrated by the unions and years of mis-managemnet including LK & LM's tenure. Diversions into the EU and LCY will not address the root problems. How can we blame staff because in the UK even are governmental reps take full advantage of every fiddle going.
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Shortfinal fred, my previous post was in relation to Cabin Crew NOT the Flight Crew, I understand the BA Flight Crew to be paid market rate in line with all the other big carriers.
My point is how can you pay Senior Flight Attendants in excess of £50-60k per year when your competitors pay far less. Something has to give somewhere and I am sure WW will want to strip it down so BA crew are paid market rate in line with the competitors.
My point is how can you pay Senior Flight Attendants in excess of £50-60k per year when your competitors pay far less. Something has to give somewhere and I am sure WW will want to strip it down so BA crew are paid market rate in line with the competitors.
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Any company can compare its own and market pay rates(T+C's also)
I would expect any company looking to save cash by getting their staff to accept less cash due to so called market rates will be picking on the big staff numbers.
Cabin Crew are a big number in any airline(not cargo)
Good luck to the Cabin Crew, you will need it I'm afraid.
I would expect any company looking to save cash by getting their staff to accept less cash due to so called market rates will be picking on the big staff numbers.
Cabin Crew are a big number in any airline(not cargo)
Good luck to the Cabin Crew, you will need it I'm afraid.
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Thank you Deszo, then I withdraw the intemperate elements of my previous post. I have to agree that BA's CC, who in my view do a excellent job in trying circumstances, are likely to face very significant wage pressure, and that BA's staff to hull ratio, which has always been absurd, MUST change.
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This is my first post in this forum and I am just a simple SLF - the guy that ultimately provides your pay cheque at the end of the month. In response to Poof in Boots various posts I would offer this advice. I have travelled over many years now with BA and other airlines in all classes. What BA did have in its favour in the past (a reputation for reliability, safety, good customer service) has long been lost in the perception of most passenger's.
PIB still seems to be clinging on to that old superior and supercilious attitude that we Brits have had in the past and has been prevalent in SOME BA cabin crew (not all). The idea that only a certain type of people fly with LOCO's is not a reality. Poof in Boots you would probably I guess be one of the people using LOCO's if you didn't already work for your superior and far better airline. I might fly business class one week if long haul and low cost another if within Europe. Now that my tickets are not bought by someone else I look for value for money. BA cabin crew (and I have a few as friends) do not usually have any experience of flying with other airlines due to their staff perks. If you did, it might wake you up a bit to the competion out there. BA business class to Asia or Australia when you can get much better service on most of the Far East airlines at a lessor cost - I think not. And although I am not a Ryanair fan, easyJet provides strong competion to BA - I flew last week to Berlin with them at half the cost of BA (on full planes) and will be going to Amsterdam with them next week for £50 return all in.
I never thought I would say this but even the Luton experience now is better the using a BAA facility, including T5. Well managed security queues and no need to use check in usuing easyJets on line facility.
PIB - you say that all your flights to the US are full - but BA reported today a drop in load factors of around 3-4% the US being one of the losers. Basically all BA planes on average are flying with 25% empty seats.
Also I couldn't let your snide comment against the French go unanswered. I flew bus class on Air France's new LHR to LAX in May and it was a first class experience - food, seating, customer service on the ground and in the air was better than BA and for alot less dosh.
Be warned - times are going to be very hard in the next 18 months or so and we don't all have limitless pockets to continue paying BA's fuel surcharges.
Sorry to have ranted on a bit.
PIB still seems to be clinging on to that old superior and supercilious attitude that we Brits have had in the past and has been prevalent in SOME BA cabin crew (not all). The idea that only a certain type of people fly with LOCO's is not a reality. Poof in Boots you would probably I guess be one of the people using LOCO's if you didn't already work for your superior and far better airline. I might fly business class one week if long haul and low cost another if within Europe. Now that my tickets are not bought by someone else I look for value for money. BA cabin crew (and I have a few as friends) do not usually have any experience of flying with other airlines due to their staff perks. If you did, it might wake you up a bit to the competion out there. BA business class to Asia or Australia when you can get much better service on most of the Far East airlines at a lessor cost - I think not. And although I am not a Ryanair fan, easyJet provides strong competion to BA - I flew last week to Berlin with them at half the cost of BA (on full planes) and will be going to Amsterdam with them next week for £50 return all in.
I never thought I would say this but even the Luton experience now is better the using a BAA facility, including T5. Well managed security queues and no need to use check in usuing easyJets on line facility.
PIB - you say that all your flights to the US are full - but BA reported today a drop in load factors of around 3-4% the US being one of the losers. Basically all BA planes on average are flying with 25% empty seats.
Also I couldn't let your snide comment against the French go unanswered. I flew bus class on Air France's new LHR to LAX in May and it was a first class experience - food, seating, customer service on the ground and in the air was better than BA and for alot less dosh.
Be warned - times are going to be very hard in the next 18 months or so and we don't all have limitless pockets to continue paying BA's fuel surcharges.
Sorry to have ranted on a bit.
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It seems that what DirectX states wins the arguement. PIB you really need to look around you and rid youraelf of our BA smugness, futhermore not only have we lost % pax we are also losing revenue on those that are flying with us. If you are LGW crew then the state of their shorthaul a/c are crap and the 77 are little better. Not that we can boast about the LHR stuff other than being newer therefore less worn.