Bmibaby
Join Date: Dec 2008
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FR- : I wouldn't disagree with anything you said there at all. Maybe we could expand your thought into a 'clean/on time tidy flight with a full schedule'. I would rather stick with BMI Baby where possible, but the ever decreasing schedules force me to take competitor airlines which do have full schedules.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Baby/Bmi redundancies
Going back to the problems at baby/bmi and the redundancies.
What explanation/justification have baby management given for making redundancies within rank whilst at bmi mainline it appears they are heading towards some form of LIFO + bits and bobs and therefore the majority of layoffs will be FO's. This, at mainline, being despite the company specifying 50 FO's and 79 Cpt positions to go in the same way they did at baby.
Also, both sets of redundancies have had significant input and influence from the same midland group HR department. How can you have such different criteria? Surely, the baby contract was not that different from the mainline contract?
Wings 11
What explanation/justification have baby management given for making redundancies within rank whilst at bmi mainline it appears they are heading towards some form of LIFO + bits and bobs and therefore the majority of layoffs will be FO's. This, at mainline, being despite the company specifying 50 FO's and 79 Cpt positions to go in the same way they did at baby.
Also, both sets of redundancies have had significant input and influence from the same midland group HR department. How can you have such different criteria? Surely, the baby contract was not that different from the mainline contract?
Wings 11
Join Date: Aug 2000
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It would appear that whatever a contract may or may not say the management have decided they will do what they want to do and BALPA have not challenged this legally. Base is not as great an issue at mainline because the majority of people (fd) affected are based at a single base (LHR). The other thing to consider, and I only put this as a thought, is that the Captains and FOs being made redundant, especially last year were all around the same level of seniority due to the recent expansion with a lot of direct entry captains. Therefore the people leaving were all around the same area of the seniority list regardless of rank. This is not the case at mainline with most captains having many years more seniority than most FOs. Doesn't make it right or wrong but just adds some perspective. The base issue is a seperate one but the same arguement is true that allow technically junior people kept jobs at unaffected bases we are talking people who were junior by months or even weeks. No comfort to those who left but again a bit of perspective.
Fingers crossed though whatever criteria they choose this time the numbers of people out of the door with no job to go to will be a lot smaller than was first feared as all remaining captains have been assured of a position, at least on a seasonal basis with some FOs actually getting a promotion. No comfort to those FOs still the wrong side of the line I know but things are still moving. I am hopeful there may end up being no FD comp redundancies. My glass is half full though.
Fingers crossed though whatever criteria they choose this time the numbers of people out of the door with no job to go to will be a lot smaller than was first feared as all remaining captains have been assured of a position, at least on a seasonal basis with some FOs actually getting a promotion. No comfort to those FOs still the wrong side of the line I know but things are still moving. I am hopeful there may end up being no FD comp redundancies. My glass is half full though.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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I think that even if you were £1700 worse off (Full time SFO V Capt seasonal) it is a price worth paying for 6+months command time, it is telling that 20+ skippers have applied for VR and none or few F/o's have.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Ryanair want captains not expereinced FOs, that is why 20 captains have VR'd and virtually no FOs. There are very few FO jobs out there. Time in the left hand seat opens doors. Seasonal, £1700 or not, it is career progression. No command time no DEC !!!!!! There's nothing to be gained in the long term by sitting in the right hand seat because you can buy a second hand fiat for the extra money. Think longer term.
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Whether it is £1700 p.a or not, there is another part of the equation that FO's will need to consider.
Moving from LHS to RHS will also almost certainly entail a move from a secure FO position on the seniority to an at risk Captain's position on the seniority list. Are there yet more redundancies to follow?
A number of the at risk Captains have already found promotion has been a double edged sword now that management have reneged on the redundancy policy in our contract of employment.
This has not gone unnoticed by the SFOs who now view promotion with a great deal of scepticism. Many will now wait for the aviation cycle to begin to move upwards before moving to larger airlines. This will leave Baby poorly placed when/if expansion ever threatens again.
Moving from LHS to RHS will also almost certainly entail a move from a secure FO position on the seniority to an at risk Captain's position on the seniority list. Are there yet more redundancies to follow?
A number of the at risk Captains have already found promotion has been a double edged sword now that management have reneged on the redundancy policy in our contract of employment.
This has not gone unnoticed by the SFOs who now view promotion with a great deal of scepticism. Many will now wait for the aviation cycle to begin to move upwards before moving to larger airlines. This will leave Baby poorly placed when/if expansion ever threatens again.
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Looker
I can not see any situation down line that would create the type of crew shortage that you set out.
2009 has been a game change event for baby, with SMB gone and the Wolfe in the the Hall you can no longer forecast the future by looking at what has happened in the past within the bmi group.
I think that if and when the group starts growing again and provided that there is no V4 redundencies next Autumn then any F/o having doubts about the wisdom of taking a Command may think again, but that's all in the future
2009 has been a game change event for baby, with SMB gone and the Wolfe in the the Hall you can no longer forecast the future by looking at what has happened in the past within the bmi group.
I think that if and when the group starts growing again and provided that there is no V4 redundencies next Autumn then any F/o having doubts about the wisdom of taking a Command may think again, but that's all in the future
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Whinging about the company not honouring contracts is missing the point and is old news. They've done it and no one stood up to them.
The fact that there may be more redundancies to follow is the point of getting that command experience. It makes you more employable even to the "larger" airlines, none of whom are going to be recruiting any time soon. The people that are recruiting want command time. If you think sitting on a firm SFO position guarantees you long term employment security then good for you BUT if there are anymore redundancies I don't think it's going to matter how senior you are. The next round is all or nothing.
Getting in the Left seat gives you options when the time comes. Sitting firmly in the right might make you feel comfortable but I hope it's not a false sense of security. How many jobs are out there for very experienced even very very good First Officers as many at Baby are. Not many. You are betting your career and future prospects on Lufthansa letting Baby carry on until that up turn comes. They might. I genuinely hope they do. But staying in the right seat means limiting your career progression for years and years to come because even when you jump to that "large" airline it will still be in the right hand seat with probably more than a decade to command ok if you are a young buck but for a thirty (or more) something ?
When I started flying I was told by an "old boy" captain that if you get a sniff of a command take it. Because if you don't you may never get another one. I'm not saying anything baby are doing is right and I don't know the full ins and outs of this seasonal command stuff but what I am saying is think hard about where you want to be, not next year, but in ten years time and how you think you are going to get there.
The fact that there may be more redundancies to follow is the point of getting that command experience. It makes you more employable even to the "larger" airlines, none of whom are going to be recruiting any time soon. The people that are recruiting want command time. If you think sitting on a firm SFO position guarantees you long term employment security then good for you BUT if there are anymore redundancies I don't think it's going to matter how senior you are. The next round is all or nothing.
Getting in the Left seat gives you options when the time comes. Sitting firmly in the right might make you feel comfortable but I hope it's not a false sense of security. How many jobs are out there for very experienced even very very good First Officers as many at Baby are. Not many. You are betting your career and future prospects on Lufthansa letting Baby carry on until that up turn comes. They might. I genuinely hope they do. But staying in the right seat means limiting your career progression for years and years to come because even when you jump to that "large" airline it will still be in the right hand seat with probably more than a decade to command ok if you are a young buck but for a thirty (or more) something ?
When I started flying I was told by an "old boy" captain that if you get a sniff of a command take it. Because if you don't you may never get another one. I'm not saying anything baby are doing is right and I don't know the full ins and outs of this seasonal command stuff but what I am saying is think hard about where you want to be, not next year, but in ten years time and how you think you are going to get there.
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Whilst in general I would agree with your sentiments about securing a command position as it presents itself there are other considerations that enter the mix.
Ryanair are not everyone's cup of tea, likewise working in the UAE may not be a practical solution for every pilot. Working for what is essentially a decent employer at a base near your home is a strong draw for a lot of Baby pilots. Risking your position in such uncertain times may not be a wise move.
I think most employers will want to see 500+ hours in the LHS before they consider you for a DEC - thus the SFOs considering seasonal commands will be looking at 2 seasons before they are able to satisfy that criteria. Which is a long time to be in the at risk zone for little material gain.
Whilst I'm sure many of my colleagues who have moved onto Ryanair are doing so with a positive attitude I'll wager a lot of them would rather still have their commands at Baby.
Horses for courses, you make the best decision you can with the information at your disposal at that time.
Ryanair are not everyone's cup of tea, likewise working in the UAE may not be a practical solution for every pilot. Working for what is essentially a decent employer at a base near your home is a strong draw for a lot of Baby pilots. Risking your position in such uncertain times may not be a wise move.
I think most employers will want to see 500+ hours in the LHS before they consider you for a DEC - thus the SFOs considering seasonal commands will be looking at 2 seasons before they are able to satisfy that criteria. Which is a long time to be in the at risk zone for little material gain.
Whilst I'm sure many of my colleagues who have moved onto Ryanair are doing so with a positive attitude I'll wager a lot of them would rather still have their commands at Baby.
Horses for courses, you make the best decision you can with the information at your disposal at that time.
Join Date: Jun 2000
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If you don't do 500 hours in the season I would be very concerned. The management at baby need to wake up. If they have not learn't from the past they will continue to roster half a dozen hours a month and that means curtains for everybody.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Website
New website design, looks much more modern but don't like the
date selection much prefer just the old drop down method.
Timetable section shows a good selection of months but a
separate tab for times, which is not that user friendly.
BHX summer schedule still be sold at 5 based aircraft - naughty naughty.
If everything is true what has been said then this has gone on long
enough. If it is the EDI & GLA to go then there is no problem as there
will be virtually no bookings this far a head, same with BFS but any other
and some people are going to be messed around.
Pete
date selection much prefer just the old drop down method.
Timetable section shows a good selection of months but a
separate tab for times, which is not that user friendly.
BHX summer schedule still be sold at 5 based aircraft - naughty naughty.
If everything is true what has been said then this has gone on long
enough. If it is the EDI & GLA to go then there is no problem as there
will be virtually no bookings this far a head, same with BFS but any other
and some people are going to be messed around.
Pete
Join Date: Nov 2009
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New website is awful (just like the airline)!
They need to make the site a lot quicker as it's taking it's time to process things, especially selecting dates as already mentiones and the route-map is terrible!
Change it back please...!
They need to make the site a lot quicker as it's taking it's time to process things, especially selecting dates as already mentiones and the route-map is terrible!
Change it back please...!