MANSTON -3
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: EGMH..a down, not yet out, formerly awesome airfield
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How did you work out the supposed costliest 'leg'? the price is all in one for the trip when you book .. or did you book it in two bits? That is the most expensive way to do it.
CAA stats
Amsterdam route had 3,731 passengers in June, which comes to a 38.9 % load factor.
Previous load factors - May was 40.7 % and April was 34 %
Something will need to change soon
Previous load factors - May was 40.7 % and April was 34 %
Something will need to change soon
Phileas - I grant you that KLM are very much about connecting people via Amsterdam to somewhere else. From looking at other airports in the CAA June 2013 data with an Amsterdam route flown solely by KLM, I've tried to work out the average number of passengers per flight
Aberdeen - 88 pax
Cardiff - 59 pax
Manston - 31 pax
Norwich - 53 pax
Humberside - 61 pax (June 2012 data)
Teesside - 52 pax (June 2012 data)
I'm guessing that for an Amsterdam route, Cardiff and Norwich are probably good comparable airports when looking at Manston.
Note - before some pedant points out the anomaly in the load factor, I'm treating a KLM F70 as having 80 seats. I know KLM sometimes block off the middle seat in business class, but the cost of flying the lump of metal between Kent and Amsterdam remains unchanged and when load factors are far from full, it is unlikely that passengers have been paying distressed-level fares or KLM have had to turn any customers away because the aircraft was full.
Aberdeen - 88 pax
Cardiff - 59 pax
Manston - 31 pax
Norwich - 53 pax
Humberside - 61 pax (June 2012 data)
Teesside - 52 pax (June 2012 data)
I'm guessing that for an Amsterdam route, Cardiff and Norwich are probably good comparable airports when looking at Manston.
Note - before some pedant points out the anomaly in the load factor, I'm treating a KLM F70 as having 80 seats. I know KLM sometimes block off the middle seat in business class, but the cost of flying the lump of metal between Kent and Amsterdam remains unchanged and when load factors are far from full, it is unlikely that passengers have been paying distressed-level fares or KLM have had to turn any customers away because the aircraft was full.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 16th Jul 2013 at 13:07.
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David,
The NWI/AMS/NWI route has been in place since, I guess, the early 70's when it was operated by Air Anglia, then Air UK, then KLM UK, it's a route of some 40 years standing thus very incomparable to MSE.
The difference with, these days, many of these routes is that KLM aren't in a position to build them up utilising the likes of, gone by, aircraft such as their SF340's and/or F27/F50's, now it's a minimum of 80 seats yet were it an F50 on the MSE route the figures would look a lot healthier than they do and such routes as CWL, HUY & MME were built up utilising the likes of SF340/SD360/F27's.
LPL, when KLM operated it, might be a comparable to MSE statistic although, clearly, KLM would have been shooting themselves in the foot with two routes, MAN & LPL, so close together.
The NWI/AMS/NWI route has been in place since, I guess, the early 70's when it was operated by Air Anglia, then Air UK, then KLM UK, it's a route of some 40 years standing thus very incomparable to MSE.
The difference with, these days, many of these routes is that KLM aren't in a position to build them up utilising the likes of, gone by, aircraft such as their SF340's and/or F27/F50's, now it's a minimum of 80 seats yet were it an F50 on the MSE route the figures would look a lot healthier than they do and such routes as CWL, HUY & MME were built up utilising the likes of SF340/SD360/F27's.
LPL, when KLM operated it, might be a comparable to MSE statistic although, clearly, KLM would have been shooting themselves in the foot with two routes, MAN & LPL, so close together.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Welcome Publicity
A welcome bit of publicity for Manston yesterday...
British Airways? A380 Arrives at Manston | Airports International | The Airport Industry online, the latest airport industry news
British Airways? A380 Arrives at Manston | Airports International | The Airport Industry online, the latest airport industry news
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Long-term planning
BBC News - Manston airport reveals 40-year expansion plan
It's encouraging that Manston is thinking long-term, and its aspirations don't seem too unrealistic. You have to remember that even though the owners of EUJet went broke, it did have around 330,000 passengers in 2004/5, and that was before the summer really got underway. Wouldn't Manston love those numbers now? The main problem with EUJet was too many destinations too soon (and an underfinanced owner). Manston has tried Edinburgh and Manchester, and now Amsterdam - but what the public really wants is SPAIN. Regular flights to ALC, GRO, MJV or AGP would be full, I have no doubt. When EUJet was in operation a small local tour operator was organising regular packages to Benidorm via ALC and La Manga via MJV, and these were successful. When EUJet folded and the operator switched to Stansted, the local support for these tours dried up completely. Never mind Edinburgh and Manchester - people want Spain. When this is a successfully established route from MSE, others can gradually be added. OK, you can get to Spain via Amsterdam, but direct is obviously so much more attractive.
It's encouraging that Manston is thinking long-term, and its aspirations don't seem too unrealistic. You have to remember that even though the owners of EUJet went broke, it did have around 330,000 passengers in 2004/5, and that was before the summer really got underway. Wouldn't Manston love those numbers now? The main problem with EUJet was too many destinations too soon (and an underfinanced owner). Manston has tried Edinburgh and Manchester, and now Amsterdam - but what the public really wants is SPAIN. Regular flights to ALC, GRO, MJV or AGP would be full, I have no doubt. When EUJet was in operation a small local tour operator was organising regular packages to Benidorm via ALC and La Manga via MJV, and these were successful. When EUJet folded and the operator switched to Stansted, the local support for these tours dried up completely. Never mind Edinburgh and Manchester - people want Spain. When this is a successfully established route from MSE, others can gradually be added. OK, you can get to Spain via Amsterdam, but direct is obviously so much more attractive.
The main problem with EUJet was that it lost money hand over fist! Even as the summer approched, loads were (on average) little more than 40%, and a lot of those tickets were special offers. Yes, the owner was underfinanced (the owner being the same outfit that owned Manston, of course) but it's questionable whether even a well funded owner would have tolerated it's losses.
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Routes
Why not 'go there now' if you have some specialist knowledge or experience that others don't? But I don't agree with you at all. Nobody's suggesting offering flights at silly prices - it's the route that is important. EUjet was offering Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Dublin, Edinburgh, Faro, Geneva, Girona,Glasgow, Jersey, Madrid, Malaga, Manchester, Milan, Murcia, Nice, Palma, Prague,Salzburg, Toulouse, Turin and Zurich. How could they possibly hope to sustain this? Of course they lost money. A small number of very carefully chosen destinations - two or three to start with - is another matter. Manchester and Edinburgh were never going to be successful. This is the context: you have to fly to places people want to go to. The high speed rail line already exists, and Ramsgate station is not far from the airport. The dual carriageway/motorway from the airport to London and points in between already exists, with a link road to the M20. People looking for a holiday destination from Manston with regular scheduled departures find nothing at the moment. Why fly to Spain (for example) via Amsterdam if you can get there quicker and with less bother from somewhere else? Some people will, but not in the numbers to make the service viable in the long term. Every time some initiative or plan is announced by the airport, every time some new flights are initiated, it all goes wrong for the simple reason that they don't have any routes that large numbers of people will want. People will come to Manston if the routes they want are there.
No it doesn't, at least nowhere near Ramsgate. HS1 passes through Ashford. The high speed rail line Buchanan was proposing was something entirely different - a new 'North Kent' line linking Ramsgate with the Medway towns, and presumably linking with HS1 near Ebsfleet. I say presumed, because the actual route is unclear. As is who will pay.
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Sorry Andy S but you are wrong. HS1 branches at Ashford and the Javelin trains continue on to Ramsgate. Kent County Council has invested substantially in the line to bring it up to high speed standards. Ashford to Canterbury section is either completed or near completion. Canterbury to Ramsgate will follow. Journey times from Ramsgate to London on the HS1 branch are just over 1 hour and once the line improvements are completed will be under 1 hour, equalling or bettering the London - Southend journey times.
I didn't know that. Fair enough. In which case why is Charles Buchanan proposing another upgrade?
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Good question! With post line improvement times of 55mins to London for the existing line why would you propose investing untold sums on shaving 10mins off that time? It may be that the reporting has been unkind to what he actually said but on the face of it I can't see the sense.
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GWW, while you are correct that EU Jet had a ridiculous array of destinations, you are incorrect that EDI was never going to work - that was one of the better performing routes and maintained decent frequency until the end, and wasn't a complete disaster when flybe gave it a go. But, ultimately pax numbers weren't quite high enough and the yields obviously weren't enough second time around so to see it fail with a well known airline offering more realistically sustainable fares with the right aircraft for the route suggests the airport really does have its work cut out.
MAN was a disaster, BHD perhaps more of a reflection of the airport's problem that we are seeing played out with AMS - there is a local market and people do want to use the airport but there is only enough of them to fill a third of the plane. Using a 30 seater isn't the answer either because then the unit costs become higher and people won't pay the higher fares.
I'm not buying that sticking to the core sun routes would have been particularly more successful - I paid £20 return to Ibiza in July and still the aircraft only had about 40 of us on it. And if you we're to try sun routes now, who would do it? FR a couple of times weekly to ALC/FAO perhaps, but they would want paying to fly in and frequencies would be so low there would be little scope for the airport to profit from pax sales so what would be the point?
MAN was a disaster, BHD perhaps more of a reflection of the airport's problem that we are seeing played out with AMS - there is a local market and people do want to use the airport but there is only enough of them to fill a third of the plane. Using a 30 seater isn't the answer either because then the unit costs become higher and people won't pay the higher fares.
I'm not buying that sticking to the core sun routes would have been particularly more successful - I paid £20 return to Ibiza in July and still the aircraft only had about 40 of us on it. And if you we're to try sun routes now, who would do it? FR a couple of times weekly to ALC/FAO perhaps, but they would want paying to fly in and frequencies would be so low there would be little scope for the airport to profit from pax sales so what would be the point?
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A few days old but worth a look for Manston fans BBC News - British Airways Airbus A380 superjumbo touches down in Kent
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Radio New Zealand : News : Business : Infratil still trying to quit British airports
Out of interest, does anyone know what the asking price is for Manston? As it has not yet sold, perhaps it has been a little on the high side?
Out of interest, does anyone know what the asking price is for Manston? As it has not yet sold, perhaps it has been a little on the high side?
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Infratil are really struggling to shift both airports. In late 2012 the combined value of Prestwick and Manston was written down again to £10.5 million. There was rumours a few months ago that PIK was to be sold to an American airport group, but Infratil were mucking tbem about, so the deal fell through. Since then all quiet...
CAA stats
July 2013 Amsterdam had 4270 pax or average of 34.4 per flight which gives a load factor of 43%
An improvement from June, but there had better be a high proportion of passengers connecting to other destinations...
An improvement from June, but there had better be a high proportion of passengers connecting to other destinations...