Alitalia (Merged)

[CaptKremin]

Welcome back, now we can have some serious political discourse again? To answer your question, I assumes The USSR would meet your requirements?

As I predicted - no examples of these famed 'civilised nations'.

I forgot all about you. You've not forgotten me obviously.
How touching.
Haven't you drunk yourself into paralysis yet? Its half past 6 already!

[navigante]

Just out of curiosity: which of the unions did and did not turn down the 'old' offer by AF-KL and what was ANPAC's point of view on that one?

I don't remember anymore (I am no longer AZ and sometimes have trouble keeping track of the unfolding opera) so I'll have to pass this one on to FORD; however I believe technically it was AF's CEO Spinetta who walked away from the table after the unions and professional associations made a counter-proposal... emboldened no doubt by the electoral promises of our current PM.

Of course believing anything that man says just shows how stupid we pilots are as a group, no matter how sharp some pilots may be individually.

Navigante

[BEagle]

Dear me, but I seem to have stirred up something of a hornets' nest.


It's just that to me it seems that, when someone throws you a lifebelt, it's a bit bŁoody stupid to query the size of the rope.

[philipat]

Wishful thinking

Haven't you drunk yourself into paralysis yet? Its half past 6 already!

Sorry old boy, don't touch it, except the occasional glass of wine. Doesn't really seem to be on topic, either civilised countries or Alitalia?

[kotakota]

Let's hope these strikes finally do the trick ...........if you get my drift ?

ps Now expecting more abuse on the PM section like last time I ventured an opinion !!

[FrequentSLF]

Navigante

As an aside the current strike was NOT called by ANPAC or UP, who realize that in this delicate moment a strike is folly... it has been called by some ground staff unions.

Repubblica.it reports that Pilots and Cabin Crews are striking, 100 flights canceled. To be noted that ANPAC claim that they did not call the strike, which was called by a undefined committee.
To make thinks worst seem that 9 Unions are not enough. AZ employees now strike even without the blessing of the Unions...Politics?
That's says a lot about the professionalism of some AZ employees. Furthermore the strike was unannounced and illegal, including picketing...

I do agree with most of what you say, however I think that professionals should not act as AZ employees are doing now. If I was CAI I would fire all 16,500. Re-hire and restart the operation. The Italian government shall guarantee that no other Airline will take over the routes in the meantime. I am sure that most of the Italians will approve. At least they will know that for a period of time they will have limited options for flying, better than be subjected to wild unannounced strikes.

[philipat]

Speak out

Kotakota (TownTown):

Let's hope these strikes finally do the trick ...........if you get my drift ?

ps Now expecting more abuse on the PM section like last time I ventured an opinion !!

Certainly catch your drift and agree it probably will, just as with Sabena.

Don't ever worry about expressing an opinion. It's what makes it interesting. As public boards, there will always be the communist element, the nutters and those with a vested self-interest. IMHO, the Mods do a good job of sorting out the downright abusive comments which go OTT. Although some refuse to accept it, we are all entitled to our opinions. It's called Freedom of speech and it is what makes a democracy sustainable.

[OrdnasselA]

To make thinks worst seem that 9 Unions are not enough. AZ employees now strike even without the blessing of the Unions...Politics?
That's says a lot about the professionalism of the AZ employees.

First of all you're talking about something you don't know, you weren't blocked in Fco yesterday morning when some employers not more represented by the Unions ('cause they'll be out from any future project of CAI) decided to form an illegal Union called "Fronte di lotta" blocking any way out and in to the crew briefing. I arrived there at 1100Lt after a flight liml to lirf and found 100 people sitting on the ground blocking everyone and i was able to go back home only at 17. Also foreign crew had to find another way to reach their aircraft (passing through terminal B i think). Those people don't have anything to lose because with or without CAI they'll be fired at the end of the month because they are seasonal employers. Berti (anpac) and Notaro (up) tried to talk to that angry crew but with not to much firm on them, police did nothing (the goverment must have to do something while yesterday no order to disband those people, maybe this situation relieve the governement from their fault?) so they were left alone deciding to perform a 24hours illegal strike. All the operation were confused, today We are trying to take all the crew back from the europe to reach as fast as possible normal operation to giv back to the passengers their flight and give back to us our job and profession, that's professionalism my friend not the voice of 100 guilty....

Alessandro
Md80 Alitalia First officer

[OrdnasselA]

That's right EPR SET but unfortunally the only way to save our job is CAI, only them because the government wants only tehem, friends of friends and the only offer received because AF and others were abduced. That's **** but our future. We can only fight later on to reach better condition for a better life!

[el #]

Thank you OrdnasselA for telling things as they are, just an update for our oversea followers, now the talk on how to deal with strikers is "enlist them first, if still problems file criminal charges", while someone is saying to go straight to the second part, "threating without acting will encourage more rogue pretesting".

[OrdnasselA]

Today there was noone of yesterday group "Fronte di lotta" but some problem on operation still occurs due to lack of human resources blocked in foreign airports. That's caused some difficulties to close all the minimum crew required for a flight and there are a lot of collegues waiting to perfor their first flight of the day since this early morning and now there's the problem that a lot of them are very close to the maximum time duty allowed by hour national regulation. I don't know how it would work in the evening and the night but i'll try first to take the crew back home even because as long as they are away from the home base so far they can be able to get back to work!

[OliverUK2000]

What about the customers?

Having read most of your professional opinions on this matter. Don't Alitalia employees or the CAI consider the long term damage done to their customer base. Does anybody in their right mind actually fly on Alitalia these days? I mean even if the restructuring should work out and there will be a new Alitalia by 2009. Will anybody bother trying them? Hasn't all the remaining good will of any potential passengers been exhausted a long time ago?

[OrdnasselA]

I know, let me pass the term "poor passengers" because they give us the salary they have given us for years and if i could i'd go to everyone to apologize for human stupidity of frightened employers that prefear to burn the name of an airline and of all employers then begin to save the work for 12,500 people.... I know CAI contract is orrible but it's to late,for me, to try to change something. On 30 november Alitalia would be only a brand of the past

[Airbus_a321]

On 30 november Alitalia would be only a brand of the past

let's cross our fingers.
Would be an inevitable relief for Italy, all Italien tax payers, all Italien airlines and the rest of Europe.

[FrequentSLF]

OrdnasselA

First of all you're talking about something you don't know, you weren't blocked in Fco yesterday morning when some employers not more represented by the Unions

I agree, i have corrected my post adding "certain".

If it is an illegal picketing the police should remove the protester.
Now a very simple question. How many of the AZ employees tried hard to reach the aircraft?

[Longhitter]

Wild striking continued today, disrupting operations further. Oh dear...

[vanHorck]

Alitalia told to repay the EURO 300M..... Wonder if that bill needs to be picked up by the CAI who already made a binding offer......

[el #]

Don't count on it. They will burden the "bad company" (that is, anything CAI is not buying) with that debt, supposedly paying with the sale of non-essential assets. Failing that, Gov.nt will come up with some creative way to legally defraud ITALIAN taxpayers.

[VAFFPAX]

The EU has specifically stated that CAI will NOT be allowed to repay the €300 million loan, but that Alitalia will have to pay it out of its liquidation proceedings.

Details here:

BBC NEWS | Business | Alitalia ordered to pay back loan

S.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and............

The EU has specifically stated that CAI will NOT be allowed to repay the €300 million loan, but that Alitalia will have to pay it out of its liquidation proceedings.

This is truly a farce designed to obfuscate what is really happening.

In essence, the EU is approving the CAI deal without CAI inheriting any liability for the previous buyout, which will belong to the "Bad" Alitalia, aka the Italian taxpayer. CAI will pay 1 Billion Euro to ALITALIA (NOT the shareholders of Alitalia who are only good for the final share price, probably zero). So AZ receives the cash and and then the taxpayer will only have to kick in and additional 1 Billion Euro in restructuring and retrenchment costs instead of the original 2 Billion Euro? The 300 Million Euro simply gets lost in the wash and is just political cover for both the EU and the Italian Government to demonstrate how "Honestly and fairly" everything is being done!!

Money is fungible, money is money irrespective of the source and whether the same number is on the bank notes involved. Liquidating the Company directly and efficiently would result in far less, if any, ADDITIONAL taxpayer subsidies AND eliminate the labour problems forever. Note that AZ is a Public LIMITED LIABILITY Company and so the shareholders are NOT liable for the losses at liquidation. Any further taxpayer subsidy over and above the "Returned" 300 Million Euro is additional, illegal, Government support. Will the EU then review this also? Because AZ is a Public Company with shareholders other than the Italian Government, will the other public shareholders be asked to contribute to the final losses on liquidation for which they are not liable? Alternatively, this is another bailout pure and simple using taxpayer funds.