Alitalia (Merged)

[maybepilot]

SNAM,

the IFALPA statement doesn't really tell us anything apart from an obvious and standard practice recruitment ban request.

[FrequentSLF]

The situation in AZ is FUBAR to say the least, and while the unions are not the most realistic and flexible ones they mostly only reacted to mismanagement and political meddling on a spectacular scale. I certainly would not like to be in the situation that AZ pilots are in. They did not create the biggest problems in AZ, but are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Just imagine how frustrating that must be. If the present plan to 'rescue' AZ is not viable, then opposing it makes sense. The fact that they are prepared to lose their job over it means that they are either very stupid or very convinced that the new plan will not lead to a profitable restart for AZ. My money is on the latter.

I am an Italian taxpayer and I am tired to see my money be ingested by the AZ black hole.
80% of the AZ employees have accepted the plan, that means the only the pilots (part of them) have the necessary insight and intelligence to understand that the new plan will not lead to a profitable restart of AZ?
Recently i have seen a figure of 160 pilots hired by AZ cargo to operate 6 planes...

[Longhitter]

Frequent SLF:

Then your anger should be pointed at the Italian Government and the management idiot who cannot seem to concentrate on anything else but filling their own pockets and wasting your tax money!

Oh, and by the way: relaunching Alitalia probably costs the government more than letting it go bankrupt, so you should be encouraging the pilots to oppose the relaunch plan.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and...................

this might explain lots of things.

Not really. The fact is, AZ pilots have a choice, and that is, take it or leave it. They will find it very difficult to find employment with other carriers after this balanced performance?

[FrequentSLF]

Longhitter

Then your anger should be pointed at the Italian Government and the management idiot who cannot seem to concentrate on anything else but filling their own pockets and wasting your tax money

I do not know if anger is the right word, anyway I do not understand why only the management has to be blamed. Look at how many strikes were made in the past to get better and better conditions? Is it a management problem if there are 9 Unions? It is a management problem if the AZ cabin crew are considered impolite and gross by most of the PAX? While I do agree that the management was well below par, you cannot blame only the management or the government. Are you aware that any of the 9 Unions can cripple AZ operations if they call to strike? A few hundred of employees can ground a major operation? Is that fair?

[el #]

Seems the following misinformation must be perpetually debunked:

For gods sake, whilst they all play primadonna and survive only thanks to MY EU tax payments.

There are never been EU money to the Alitalia case. Italy is a net EU contributor and always have been. All the money is extorted from the ITALIAN taxpayer only.

Then this:
Alitalia pilots are a bunch of union driven, unaware of the aviation business, modern Don Quijotes who signed a deal that was lacking lots of basic details that are now cause of dispute.

Alitalia pilots had no other choice than to sign that deal and I want to believe they did in good faith. They are NOT less productive than the average EU pilot. As far as union driven, it's the same in any other civilized country.

Finally this:

I need some help. This thread is dominated by disenfranchised AZ pilots and various communist elements with a chip on the shoulder.

You will be allowed to call me a communist when I'll join some insurrection movement, thing that I haven't done yet. Else it's a comment that stands at par with the cries that Berlusconi makes everytime is criticized.
Your side of the discussion is actually the one of someone very much separated from the issue but that for some reason cannot do without sharing much self-valued advice on too many things.

[FrequentSLF]

Alitalia's bankruptcy administrator has warned against strikes, but the unions said in a statement Sunday that they also plan a total of 14 days of walkouts between December and May.

Definitively the best way to keep away customers till May. Last nail in the coffin of the airline. I bet that in this worldwide economical situation most of the employees in any sector are ready to accept some benefit reduction if this will help to keep their job or avoiding the company to go Bankrupt...

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and.............

Philipat: you spend a lot of time bashing Alitalia pilots when there is much more reason to criticise Olympic personnel. They have been striking and blocking runways over plans to privatise Olympic for weeks, being far less reasonable and yet you did not mention them once. Any particular beef with AZ?

Actually, that is neither fair nor honest. Please read the totality of my input. My major concerns, expressed consistently, are the cooruption involved and the lack of transparency of both AZ management and the CAI buyout. Yes, I do believe Italy is living the past and that AZ pilots (And their Unions) are, therefore, doing themselves no favours and will finish up without employment. But this is secondary. There is is so much B/S and politics in this thread and no intellectual integrity, It's impossible here to have an honest dialogue.

[maybepilot]

As far as union driven, it's the same in any other civilized country.

Civilized countries are driven by intellect, not by politically linked social climbers like the infamous italian unionists.

[Longhitter]

The fact is that I don't particularly agree with the pilots' point of view, but I have gained insight into their thinking. Calling for fairness in Italy is wishful thinking to say the least. It's all about power and money. If you are not a large group but concentrated in a small area it gives you leverage.

Let's look at two other countries in Europe:

In France only about 20% of the working population is a union member, but they are concentrated in areas where they can paralyze the whole country: (public) transport, education, public services. Combined with the way France is organized politically and economically this makes for difficult negotiations and unreasonable demands during conflicts, and leads to 'strike first and negotiate later'-tactics.

In Holland over 80% of the working population is a union member, spread over all disciplines. Combined with the way Holland is organized politically and economically it makes for very little major labour conflicts and disruptions. Government, employers and unions generally enter talks and negotiations with the attitude of wanting to reach a solution rather than playing hardball.


Now, the government and CAI are not playing it fair. Do you really expect the group of pilots who are well-organized and not stupid to roll over and play dead when they have a possibility for some power play?

[Longhitter]

Philipat:

This thread is about an Italian company in Italy, do you seriously believe that it is possible to keep B/S and politics out of it?

In an ideal entrepreneurs world, all decisions on / in a company would be made rationally and as a result of proper analysis based on verified facts.

The problem is that AZ is not an ideal company in not an ideal country. I see perfect sense in your business-analysis of the situation, but again: this is Italy. In Rome, the Romans do as the Romans do and a lonesome Philipat is not going to be able to change their way of seeing and doing things. The only way to watch this (very) slow-motion crash is from the sidelines, frowning at the politics and laughing about the B/S.

By the way: calling arguments by another person of another political conviction B/S and communism is sure to kill their interest in having a discussion with you...

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and..........

Now, the government and CAI are not playing it fair. Do you really expect the group of pilots who are well-organized and not stupid to roll over and play dead when they have a possibility for some power play?

If you lay Chess, you will undertand the need for strategy. The AZ pilots are negotiating/playing from a position of weakness but seem to believe they have the advantage? Most likely outcome: Bankruptcy and unemployment for all AZ pilots and bad will with potential alternative employers who don't care for Union intransigence.

Bottom line, get real. Unless of course, in true Italian style, there is already an invisible deal that AZ pilots will ALL get the Government bailout (10 years at 80% pay) which the EU taxpayer will cover. In which cae, they have nothing to lose. And Uncle Sylvio and the boys still walk away with avery big fat profit.

[FrequentSLF]

Now, the government and CAI are not playing it fair. Do you really expect the group of pilots who are well-organized and not stupid to roll over and play dead when they have a possibility for some power play?

Correct. I do agree on that.

That's why I am arguing against the situation, the AZ pilots should not try to justify (at least on this forum) their actions. Just say "look we have some leverage, let us make the best use of it". The fact is that both sides are not concerned about the taxpayer money.

[FrequentSLF]

Bottom line, get real. Unless of course, in true Italian style, there is already an invisible deal that AZ pilots will ALL get the Government bailout (10 years at 80% pay) which the EU taxpayer will cover. In which cae, they have nothing to lose. And Uncle Sylvio and the boys still walk away with avery big fat profit.

European Taxpayer money? Is Italian taxpayer money.

[el #]

maybepilot, check your facts. The politically linked social climbers like the infamous italian unionists have accepted the deal both in the first and second convocation.

The professional associations that are "making problems" are not the ones that you're probably referring to - these care called "confederated unions" in Italy.

I can agree that there may are social climbers even among the "professional associations" but the political link is unlikely, actually is is believed that most members politically supports the parties currently forming Gov.mnt.

[philipat]

AZ Bunny goes on and on and .............

Your side of the discussion is actually the one of someone very much separated from the issue but that for some reason cannot do without sharing much self-valued advice on too many things.

No need to shout, old boy. We are having a civilised discussion her? We don't have to agree but we don't have to be uncivilised?

[philipat]

AX Bunny goes on and on and..................

European Taxpayer money? Is Italian taxpayer money.

OK granted, but I had assumed that Italy was a part of the EU?

[maybepilot]

el #,

i checked my facts, you probably have a superficial knowledge of the italian scene.
I could name 3 or 4 former unionists that then became chief pilots and even CEO's (does Eurofly remind you anything?); not mentioning the past government's presidents of senate and parliament who also were former union bosses.
What both CAI and unions have signed a few weeks ago is total crap from every point of view: no forlough details, no merger details (Alitalia+AirOne), no route structure details, no international partner...vitually no business plan at all.
Only politics.

[Longhitter]

Well, it is powerplay, even though it looks like a Jack Russell barking at a a few Rottweilers. CAI will not be able to continue operating after the beginning of december if they don't have enough pilots on board. If the pilots do not break ranks and reject the contract collectively, the new Alitalia will have no pilots to fly their aircraft. As always, the hard part of playing chicken is knowing when to flinch. We will soon (although this is Italy, they might drag it out for another month or so...) know who have overplayed their hand and who haven't.

[FrequentSLF]

OK granted, but I had assumed that Italy was a part of the EU?

Yes Italy is part of EU, however the taxpayer money is not. Every country in the EU contributes to the EU taxpayer money. If Italy will use taxpayer money to pay for the AZ will not be deducted to the contributions made to the EU neither such contributions will be reduced.
If that is legitimate under EU regulations is another issue.