British Airways - 2

[Carnage Matey!]

This all seems a bit contradictory. Are the 777s a replacement for the 787s (which were intended for growth) or a replacement for 747s? Why hasn't Willie Walsh mentioned this to anyone in the Flight Ops department? And who's going to fly these aircraft? If the first aircraft is arriving in September then BA needed to ramp up 777 training last month and right now they are still looking at training more 747 pilots than 777 pilots this year. I'd even question whether this makes economic sense as the 747 lessors still need to be paid, so the 777 fuel savings need to add up to more than the lease costs of the 744 plus the loss of revenue from using a smaller aircraft.

[Doors to Automatic]

I would guess that the 777-300s are planned as an evenual replacement for the 747-400s (together with the A380s) but for the time being are going to be used as a stop-gap for the 787s

[flyeruk69]

I did get a business brief from my manager yesterday which said about BA getting 777 ER (he was unable to say if 200 or 300 series) I must admit I didn't take it with a pinch of salt at the time as there was no substance to it and he couldn't answer questions like where are the 777 coming from ?

I'm now having second thoughts, it could be true !!!

[ETOPS]

Don't forget we have 4 new T7 aircraft being delivered next year. First is due Jan/Feb 09 with the rest soon after. These are -236ER's and were part of last years partial expansion order that included the 787 announcement.

[Peter47]

Peter47

To reply to Carnage Matey, my understanding is that 773s are about 25% more fuel efficient than 744s and have a similar payload capacity (slightly fewer seats and more cargo). Once BA's fuel hedges run out fuel will account for 40% of costs so you can work out the saving. Yes there will still be lease costs on the 744s, but if parked as a D check comes due my betting is that lower fuel & maintenance costs will more than offset that. (That could of course be bad news for engineering!)

If anyone out there knows the exact fuel saving on a typical sector such as LHR - JFK could you post it please!

Right now there is only only solution to airline economics. More fuel efficient aircraft.

[Torquelink]

If true, it will probably short-circuit the next widebody competition which, as I recall, would have pitched the A350-900/1000 against the 773ER. Airbus will be a tad unhappy!

[CHINOOKER]

Carnage Matey...for info these 777-300s are not replacing the 787s on order.
What they will be used for is to replace the older 747-400s that were due to be retired when 787 deliveries started. As delivery of the 787 has apparently slipped by some 18 months then BA faced a dilemma....Have the older 747-400s "D" checked,(which would also have to include a life extension programme,due age),or get a "stop-gap" replacement.
Have talked to a few people at work today and it seems that this new order for 777s will be announced at Farnborough....6 on firm order plus a further 6 on option!.
Have also heard today that BA is in talks with both Airbus and Fed Ex re the A380s they have on order!....Apparently Fed Ex want to delay delivery of thier cargo A380s and BA are after those airframes to speed up thier fleet aquisition! Further to this BA is also roumoured to be speaking to EasyJet re the ex BMED A321s,(hope i've got that right?),which do not fit thier fleet profile!....These would then be positioned at LGW to accelerate the disposal of some of the older 737s!.
From what i was told today,events regarding fleet renewal and further aircraft aquisitions are going to happen quite rapidly!!.....it's all down to the cost of fuel and a/c operating costs!!

[Muizenberg]

Sounds very plausible

Chinooker,

All sounds very plausible. This is the ideal time for BA to take advantage of the slow down, and renew the fleet NOW when we really need more fuel efficient aircraft. If other companies are cancelling or delaying orders, this is the ideal opportunity for us to pounce.

Just one minor detail regarding the A321's...
If they are ex-GB Airways they will come from EZY;
Ex-BMED from BMI...

Will be very sad to the B747-436 go... From those of us in the cabin, this aircraft is a dream to work on. Beats the other 2 aircraft in the WW fleet hands down.

[CHINOOKER]

Muizenberg,
Your'e quite correct...they are the ex GB airways a/c!.....It's been a long day so far,with too much information to take in!!....sorry for the confusion.

[ltn and beyond]

CHINOOKER, all this sounds plausable and possible. but was there no mention of the 767 fleet in this , I thought BA were looking at converting some of its short haul 767s to long haul to fill the gaps ?

[Joetom]

BA operate 777-200's with 2 engine types, GE90 and RR.

Guess the 300 with RR could keep it simple for them.

However split the new order for 300's with GE115 and P&W would be more fun for the boys.

With the credit crunch about, its a good time to get cheap aircraft if you can afford them and I guess they can, MOL was rumoured to have got the cheapest ever aircraft on a like for like basis with his order for 737's, think it was a little after 9/11.

At the end of the day, if these 777's are cheap enough they will get them, only history will show if it was cheaper to have managed until the so called green/fuel misers 380/350/787 are in good supply.

[HZ123]

CC trainers mentioned the figure 4 yesterday and added that these a/c would not have any 'First' as added to all the other issues that class is not looking to encouraging for the future. That said the a/c must go to LHR so which routes might have 'first' reduced or withdrawn.

[Torquelink]

Presumably they'll be 300ERs for the range in which case they'll have GE90-115s which is the only engine option on the type.

Chinooker - FedEx formally cancelled their A380Fs some time ago when Airbus put an indefinite delay on the F development programme.

[BerksFlyer]

For the people asking about engine types:

The -300ER only has the GE90-115B. GE managed to get exclusivity on the newer 777s remember.

[CHINOOKER]

Ref upgrading the shorthaul 767s to longhaul,yes that seems to be in the planning at present as its longhaul that seems to be holding up in the current climate......Re having no First Class on these new aircraft,well BA currently have five 777s in three class,(MMA-MMF),so it's not inconcievable that these could follow suite!. With regard to the future of "First" as a product hasn't BA just decided on a new "First" seat and cabin layout,(project prime??),which will be unvailed later this year??

[point8six]

CHINOOKER
"i" before "e" except after "c" makes it "inconceivable" and it should be "unveiled" not "unvailed" and did you mean "follow suit" not "suite"? Also FedEx cancelled their A380F order some time ago.
Other than that, a somewhat less-than-average posting! Try using Spellchecker.
Fuel savings gained by using B777-336s compared to the B747-436s may be offset by higher leasing costs and other operating costs, including maintenance and insurance.Add in the cost of converting crews from 747s to 777s and the savings may not be quite so considerable.

[CHINOOKER]

Point8six, sorry for my spelling mistakes,i obviously have not been educated to your esteemed level!!.....As i said in an earlier post,it's been a long day for me...up at 4am and now posting this with another 4am start tomorrow,so i only hope i can stay awake long enough tomorrow in order to help keep BA's 777s flying safely!

night,night all.

[slip and turn]

Chinooker are you serious about giving yourself 5 hours sleep for your 4am starts?? Have you got a Mrs Thatcher prime-ministerial type body clock?

[Carnage Matey!]

The Fedex A380F rumour has already been dealt with and the department told us last week that they wouldn't be acquiring GBs 321s but would delay retirement of the old A320s we already have. I'm not sure where you are getting your info Chinooker but some of it seems quite out of date.

The future widebody competition was never realistically going to feature the 777 as the design would be 20+ years old before the aircraft even entered service. It was always going to be A380/787/A350 in various flavours.

[HZ123]

First and Club on longhaul are down nearly 2% last month and i would expect this trend to increase. Regarding the launch of the newer 'first' product it is only part of the usual facelift procedures and the 744 are not in contention seemingly. Please get more sleep if not Chinook you will be on a fizzer, must be caning the O/T.