MANCHESTER - 5
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally think that is the key to a regional UK to major hub which is where Flyglobespan failed on the LPL-JFK route, there wasnt enough demand for just NYC from the Mersey.
Look at CO and EK for example. They are providing flights into major hubs but I would love to know the figure for the number of passengers who actually make this their final destination as I can probably assume not many! CO offers services from smaller airports such as BHX, BFS, BRS, EDI, GLA etc. where there may not be enough demand for just EWR. They do however have connections to various destinations across North and South America from the airport which makes the route viable! Same with EK and DXB - do you really think MAN has that high a demand for DXB - over 900 seats per day?!
By LH signing a contract with Jetblue it gives them the more destinations across the States which will also increase demand for their own flights to reach these destinations! I know it is very simple and has been happening for many years but I still believe it is the best way to fill aircraft and with the current economic climate, will be for some time to come!
your 100% correct, this is EXACTLY why globespan's LPL-NYC failed, because of no connections.....you need at least connecting opertunities to succeed on a route like that, especially with major competition just 30 miles away. Personally i think LH will do very well on this route, especially with their codeshare with B6, and with a reputation of being one of the worlds most respected airlines.
Good luck!
G-STAW
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hello,
just a quicky.....
was an AF A320-100 at MAN yesterday operating the late afternoon rotation?, it must of been the -100 or the A320-200 lost it winglets during flight?
just curious....
G-STAW
just a quicky.....
was an AF A320-100 at MAN yesterday operating the late afternoon rotation?, it must of been the -100 or the A320-200 lost it winglets during flight?
just curious....
G-STAW
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Age: 51
Posts: 760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G-STAW you sound like it's already been announced.
It is still only a "scetchy" rumour, although it would be nice to see a line of DLH 330's lined up, heading for New York, Hong Kong etc etc each day.
We can only dream...
It is still only a "scetchy" rumour, although it would be nice to see a line of DLH 330's lined up, heading for New York, Hong Kong etc etc each day.
We can only dream...
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally i think LH will do very well on this route, especially with their codeshare with B6, and with a reputation of being one of the worlds most respected airlines.
I'm pretty sure that if LH were to bring heavies over the North sea for flights over the pond - NYC will not be the last destination on their list!
It is still only a "scetchy" rumour, although it would be nice to see a line of DLH 330's lined up, heading for New York, Hong Kong etc etc each day.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G-STAW you sound like it's already been announced.
It is still only a "scetchy" rumour, although it would be nice to see a line of DLH 330's lined up, heading for New York, Hong Kong etc etc each day.
We can only dream...
whens the launch party?!?joking....
"...will do well..." I'm liking the positivity!
time will tell guys......
Last edited by G-STAW; 4th Jun 2008 at 16:09.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: MCT
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Premjet
Not from Wikipedia 
but from the MEN via UK Airport News 03 June.
It appears from the LTN thread that they intend to operate from there too.
Interesting, especially in the light of the current state of the economy !!
Suzeman
A new luxury-class airline is pressing ahead with plans to start flying from Manchester Airport despite the problems engulfing the sector - with all three all business class airlines operating from the UK failing in the last six months - the Manchester Evening News reports.
Premjet is preparing to start operations next spring using 80-seater Boeing 737 jets. It plans to fly to Malaga and Alicante in Spain, Faro in Portugal and Palma, Majorca with a total of 14 services a week.
The new luxury airline will target well-heeled leisure travellers, including people with holiday homes, across the north. Director Andy Mitchell told the newspaper: ‘We continue to seek investment and our timetable remains unaffected. We believe the demand exists for our service and we believe it will be successful.’
He said passengers would be able to check in online and would have access to airport lounges, adding that fares would be `competitive'. Premjet is headed by chief executive Chris Belcher and its board includes former Manchester Airport director Paul Connellan, who is a non-executive and is acting as a consultant. It is based in Croydon.
but from the MEN via UK Airport News 03 June.It appears from the LTN thread that they intend to operate from there too.
Interesting, especially in the light of the current state of the economy !!
Suzeman
A new luxury-class airline is pressing ahead with plans to start flying from Manchester Airport despite the problems engulfing the sector - with all three all business class airlines operating from the UK failing in the last six months - the Manchester Evening News reports.
Premjet is preparing to start operations next spring using 80-seater Boeing 737 jets. It plans to fly to Malaga and Alicante in Spain, Faro in Portugal and Palma, Majorca with a total of 14 services a week.
The new luxury airline will target well-heeled leisure travellers, including people with holiday homes, across the north. Director Andy Mitchell told the newspaper: ‘We continue to seek investment and our timetable remains unaffected. We believe the demand exists for our service and we believe it will be successful.’
He said passengers would be able to check in online and would have access to airport lounges, adding that fares would be `competitive'. Premjet is headed by chief executive Chris Belcher and its board includes former Manchester Airport director Paul Connellan, who is a non-executive and is acting as a consultant. It is based in Croydon.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LoCos, MAN, and the North of England
Allow me to pontificate. That is all I may do, for although I have worked in the air transport industry for some 28 years I would not profess to have an intimate knowledge of the economics of our worthy calling.
By the mid-1990s, MAN had developed into a significant second-tier gateway airport, with services by most of the principal European flag-carriers and a decent number of long-haul routes out to 3 continents beyond Europe. The strategy pursued under Sir Gil Thompson and others (in accordance with the 1978 White Paper) seemed to have worked and MAN provided the North of England with a realistic alternative the using the London airports when travelling just about anywhere. BA remained lukewarm about MAN as a long-haul hub, but that mattered less and less as overseas carriers moved in one by one. The domestic network was very comprehensive, enabling some serious hubbing through interline and on-line connections over MAN, although the transfer 'product' was never developed to the required quality. The second runway promised the availability of slots to grow this hubbing.
Into the late-90s, even as Runway 2 was under construction, LoCos began to spread out of the South East, most significantly with EZYs committment to Liverpool. Many of us were unsure that this would be a success, but 10 years on it has been hugely successful, with tenfold growth in LPLs pax numbers, helped by RYR of course, even if they have only just eventually scraped a profit this year. Then came Jet 2 at LBA and BLK, bmibaby at EMA; Robin Hood, Coventry, all eating away at MANs catchment with services almost exclusively on the low-cost model. Great in the short to medium term for the traveller living north of Watford - they got cheap flights from a local airport to many of the places they wanted to go (for a holiday, at least). Great for those airports which had been sleepy hollows for many years.
But has it been great for the North of England in the longer term, and is it sustainable? Compared to the mid-1990s described above we now have 'choice' - which so often means fragmentation. We have 'choice' to fly to the same destinations for the same fares from just about anywhere. Whilst I have no doubt that the LoCo boom has generated some new traffic I am equally sure that it has undermined the traffic and yields on the full-service routes that MAN previously supported, leading to the loss of many such services. Of course there have been other factors such as the Iraq war, terrorism, credit crunch, oil price etc, but I can't help wondering that through the fragementation of demand due to LoCo and numerous departure points, the North of England has lost out on having its own air transport hub, something which could only ever be viable at a single airport in the North, and that was obviously MAN.
We've seen MAN lose many of the hard-won long haul routes, and also, worryingly, a good number of primary European routes with flag carriers. In this way MAN has lost its critical mass of services which could feed eachother and make new long haul destinations viable. MAN has seen LoCo growth, basically replacing the old legacy services with the same offerings at the same price as are available from LPL, DCS, LBA etc. Not a great exchange deal for the North, as the price has been the loss of its global direct services. Furthermore, most of the smaller regional airports no longer have a service to LHR, and so they cannot even connect over London. Even where the LoCos operate into major EU hubs they do not have interlining arrangements with the big gobal alliances - another loss of connectivity. Somewhere along the line this must be damaging the economy of the North. Good connections are essential to business. Have we exchanged our good connections for a cheap way of getting to a stag night in Eastern Europe?
Airports were never intended to be profitable. They were not built to be businesses in their own right and to seek turnover and retail spend as their raison d'etre. They were built by governments, both national and local, in order that their country, city or region should benefit politically and economically by the trading links that were forged. That may sound out of date, but I re-ask the question - Has the LoCo-led fragementation of air services ultimately benefitted the North of England?
By the mid-1990s, MAN had developed into a significant second-tier gateway airport, with services by most of the principal European flag-carriers and a decent number of long-haul routes out to 3 continents beyond Europe. The strategy pursued under Sir Gil Thompson and others (in accordance with the 1978 White Paper) seemed to have worked and MAN provided the North of England with a realistic alternative the using the London airports when travelling just about anywhere. BA remained lukewarm about MAN as a long-haul hub, but that mattered less and less as overseas carriers moved in one by one. The domestic network was very comprehensive, enabling some serious hubbing through interline and on-line connections over MAN, although the transfer 'product' was never developed to the required quality. The second runway promised the availability of slots to grow this hubbing.
Into the late-90s, even as Runway 2 was under construction, LoCos began to spread out of the South East, most significantly with EZYs committment to Liverpool. Many of us were unsure that this would be a success, but 10 years on it has been hugely successful, with tenfold growth in LPLs pax numbers, helped by RYR of course, even if they have only just eventually scraped a profit this year. Then came Jet 2 at LBA and BLK, bmibaby at EMA; Robin Hood, Coventry, all eating away at MANs catchment with services almost exclusively on the low-cost model. Great in the short to medium term for the traveller living north of Watford - they got cheap flights from a local airport to many of the places they wanted to go (for a holiday, at least). Great for those airports which had been sleepy hollows for many years.
But has it been great for the North of England in the longer term, and is it sustainable? Compared to the mid-1990s described above we now have 'choice' - which so often means fragmentation. We have 'choice' to fly to the same destinations for the same fares from just about anywhere. Whilst I have no doubt that the LoCo boom has generated some new traffic I am equally sure that it has undermined the traffic and yields on the full-service routes that MAN previously supported, leading to the loss of many such services. Of course there have been other factors such as the Iraq war, terrorism, credit crunch, oil price etc, but I can't help wondering that through the fragementation of demand due to LoCo and numerous departure points, the North of England has lost out on having its own air transport hub, something which could only ever be viable at a single airport in the North, and that was obviously MAN.
We've seen MAN lose many of the hard-won long haul routes, and also, worryingly, a good number of primary European routes with flag carriers. In this way MAN has lost its critical mass of services which could feed eachother and make new long haul destinations viable. MAN has seen LoCo growth, basically replacing the old legacy services with the same offerings at the same price as are available from LPL, DCS, LBA etc. Not a great exchange deal for the North, as the price has been the loss of its global direct services. Furthermore, most of the smaller regional airports no longer have a service to LHR, and so they cannot even connect over London. Even where the LoCos operate into major EU hubs they do not have interlining arrangements with the big gobal alliances - another loss of connectivity. Somewhere along the line this must be damaging the economy of the North. Good connections are essential to business. Have we exchanged our good connections for a cheap way of getting to a stag night in Eastern Europe?
Airports were never intended to be profitable. They were not built to be businesses in their own right and to seek turnover and retail spend as their raison d'etre. They were built by governments, both national and local, in order that their country, city or region should benefit politically and economically by the trading links that were forged. That may sound out of date, but I re-ask the question - Has the LoCo-led fragementation of air services ultimately benefitted the North of England?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: cheshire
Age: 67
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roverman, I think your assessment is in the main well thought through. Yes, it is a worsening situation for those who live in the Manchester area, but for everyone else, locos have been beneficial. I use locos to European airports to connect with long haul. Not only can I use my local airport, I can actually save money, as they are not true interlines, I only pay european air taxes. Ok, you have to check in again, but that offsets the original hassle of having to get to Man or a London Airport in the first place. (Incidentally I made additional savings from LPL to LIM via MAD as the flight timings meant that I saved additional costs for a hotel in the London area, - Man was not an option in this case)
Overall, locos have certainly been beneficial for myself (and millions of others by their success), but you are correct in that long-haul has suffered partly as a consequence. For various reasons Man had a near monopoly of services from the North, but there was no possibility that this would continue into perpetuity, but the rapid growth of Locos appears to have caught Man unawares, and their anti-loco initial stance cost them dearly, although I appreciate it was to defend flag carriers.
Man is now a different beast. Instead of the previous policy of trying to strangle all competition elsewhere at birth, which to be fair worked for many years, they now need to maximise their strengths. However the impression given is that they are desperate for anything anywhere which I am not sure is the best model for MAN.
Overall, locos have certainly been beneficial for myself (and millions of others by their success), but you are correct in that long-haul has suffered partly as a consequence. For various reasons Man had a near monopoly of services from the North, but there was no possibility that this would continue into perpetuity, but the rapid growth of Locos appears to have caught Man unawares, and their anti-loco initial stance cost them dearly, although I appreciate it was to defend flag carriers.
Man is now a different beast. Instead of the previous policy of trying to strangle all competition elsewhere at birth, which to be fair worked for many years, they now need to maximise their strengths. However the impression given is that they are desperate for anything anywhere which I am not sure is the best model for MAN.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not from Wikipedia
but from the MEN via UK Airport News 03 June.It appears from the LTN thread that they intend to operate from there too.
Interesting, especially in the light of the current state of the economy !!
Suzeman
A new luxury-class airline is pressing ahead with plans to start flying from Manchester Airport despite the problems engulfing the sector - with all three all business class airlines operating from the UK failing in the last six months - the Manchester Evening News reports.
Premjet is preparing to start operations next spring using 80-seater Boeing 737 jets. It plans to fly to Malaga and Alicante in Spain, Faro in Portugal and Palma, Majorca with a total of 14 services a week.
The new luxury airline will target well-heeled leisure travellers, including people with holiday homes, across the north. Director Andy Mitchell told the newspaper: ‘We continue to seek investment and our timetable remains unaffected. We believe the demand exists for our service and we believe it will be successful.’
He said passengers would be able to check in online and would have access to airport lounges, adding that fares would be `competitive'. Premjet is headed by chief executive Chris Belcher and its board includes former Manchester Airport director Paul Connellan, who is a non-executive and is acting as a consultant. It is based in Croydon.
"We believe the demand exists for our service and we believe it will be successful."
Eos, Maxjet and Silverjet said that aswell.....
Seriously, this is another half hearted attempt at making a so called "luxury" airline, we've had three major business startups cease in the last six months. At the current climate this venture will find itmuch harder to make money than eos,maxjet and silverjet ever did.
People dont have the money to spend on these luxurys at the moment, ok theyre aiming at the "holiday home people" bracket, but still, them are the people who want to keep their money, especially when they can get the same(slightly less comfortably) TWO HOUR flight cheaper!
This is the big thing, flying time. Whats the point in having luxury on a 2 hour flight? i would accept it if your where going across the atlantic, your able to appriciate the product more, but not on such a short flight, i think its absolutly pointless....
you can probably tell i dont like idots who think they've got the perfect product, when its failed many times over. This doesnt know what the hell hes doing.....period!
G-STAW
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the product will be similar to the BA Club Europe from LGW and LHR, or the Air France business and first, LH etc.
Obviously the major carriers are selling it from huge bases with massive route networks for onward connections but surely there would be room for an airline that offers luxury (only have to fill 80 seats) that will most likely be charging around a fare U2 or FR would charge a week before departure?
Spending 3 hours (AGP and ALC are abit longer than 2 (unless they plan to bring back the bird from the AVP!) would be a great delight to start the holiday.
Remember the destinations they are flying to: Malaga where the rich and famous play in Porto Banus (spelling?
) and the hundreds of golf courses etc. I would have thought that ALC would be further down the list. PMI would be my 2nd choice as it attracts many more of the rich and famous.
There are many destinations in Europe that would benefit from the business service. Does anyone remember the Airline episode on Brittania where the snotty woman asks for a G&T, then says to the flight attendant "thats a gin and tonic to you." There are many of these people in the UK who would probably use this service.
Anyway...why not let them have a go...its not been done before!
Obviously the major carriers are selling it from huge bases with massive route networks for onward connections but surely there would be room for an airline that offers luxury (only have to fill 80 seats) that will most likely be charging around a fare U2 or FR would charge a week before departure?
Spending 3 hours (AGP and ALC are abit longer than 2 (unless they plan to bring back the bird from the AVP!) would be a great delight to start the holiday.
Remember the destinations they are flying to: Malaga where the rich and famous play in Porto Banus (spelling?
) and the hundreds of golf courses etc. I would have thought that ALC would be further down the list. PMI would be my 2nd choice as it attracts many more of the rich and famous. There are many destinations in Europe that would benefit from the business service. Does anyone remember the Airline episode on Brittania where the snotty woman asks for a G&T, then says to the flight attendant "thats a gin and tonic to you." There are many of these people in the UK who would probably use this service.
Anyway...why not let them have a go...its not been done before!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the road
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will this Premjet fantasy never die?? The economics of 80 seats on an MD80 just don't work. Out of LTN they would need a fare in the region of £600 return (at current fuel levels) just to cover the operating cost at a 90% load factor. Put simply, there are not enough people who will pay that fare every day of the week. I have previously stated that I will eat my trousers if this airline ever makes a flight. The offer still stands!!!
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The source now seems to show a Boeing 737-800 is on the cards which is more fuel efficient. Maybe an FR long term lease?! They need to make money some how if they are only expected to break even over the next 12 months!
TartinTon, where did you get your stats from please? Cheers.
TartinTon, where did you get your stats from please? Cheers.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Risky business in the current climate but who knows, this may work. I fly MAN-AGP 3 times a year and whilst there's a choice of about 8 airlines on this route, I always fly Monarch even if that means paying extra. I prefer the service they can offer me despite the fact that it's only a 2 hour 30 minutes flight time. I'm not exactly made of money either! Service and extra's are still important features to a proportion of travellers & people with properties in the Marbella/Puerto Banus area's who do have money may well go for this. Really depends on what they have to offer and what sort of fares they're charging. ALC may well be an error though. I would say AGP, FAO and PMI for starters and see how that works out.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Macclesfield
Age: 53
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Their new website is a far cry from the 1st. the one everybody thought was a school project
I fly to ALC 2 times a year on avg. and I would use this route if they get it "off the ground" usually I choose ZB to get me there but if their times and costs look good I would give it a go.
And after some quick math the fuel cost per person wouldn't be that bad...
Fuel Boy
I fly to ALC 2 times a year on avg. and I would use this route if they get it "off the ground" usually I choose ZB to get me there but if their times and costs look good I would give it a go.
And after some quick math the fuel cost per person wouldn't be that bad
...Fuel Boy
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Tartinton... don't quite know where you have got your figures from... but they are well off... the "charter" cost of a Boeing 737-800 from the UK to the Canaries and back is around the £29,000 mark... at 80 seats that equates to £362 per return passenger... so for a flight from the UK to mainland Spain, it would be a lot less than the £600 you quoted.
Nevertheless, with the economic uncertainty at the present time, I can't see 'Premjet' being successful.
Nevertheless, with the economic uncertainty at the present time, I can't see 'Premjet' being successful.
Pilot of the Airwaves
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Close to the Med
Age: 74
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It just might work.
There are quite a few of us down here, who cringe when boarding present flights on the route, to find uncontrolled children on these flights, which I may add, is a growing problem, as are uncontrolled and noisy adults.
There are quite a few of us down here, who cringe when boarding present flights on the route, to find uncontrolled children on these flights, which I may add, is a growing problem, as are uncontrolled and noisy adults.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Noordwest
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's difficult for anybody to give a proper analysis of Premjet's chances of success. There are however, many hundreds of thousands of people, some with second homes in Spain and France for whom 'economic uncertainty' and the 'credit crunch' mean nothing at all.
Roverman's thoughts on LCCs and the North of England are interesting, but I disagree that the growth of LCCs have rendered MAN a less viable hub. The old legacy carriers are still here, with the exception of IB and OS which didn't link MAN with MAD and VIE for very long, other second-tier European airports have largely lost their hub status (BRU, MXP, GVA and even to a certain extent ZRH and CPH) in the same time period. We have to compare MAN with these and with BER, BCN, and ARN and we're still not doing too badly.
I think the pull of LHR and BA is still too great. It's not surprising that CX pulled out given the number of available connections on BA/CX and VS, but still, we now have 4 daily departures in that general direction by Gulf carriers, 5 if you include SQ, 7 or 8 if you add ED and PK, which is pretty darn good for a non-capital, non-hubbing 'regional' European airport.
Roverman's thoughts on LCCs and the North of England are interesting, but I disagree that the growth of LCCs have rendered MAN a less viable hub. The old legacy carriers are still here, with the exception of IB and OS which didn't link MAN with MAD and VIE for very long, other second-tier European airports have largely lost their hub status (BRU, MXP, GVA and even to a certain extent ZRH and CPH) in the same time period. We have to compare MAN with these and with BER, BCN, and ARN and we're still not doing too badly.
I think the pull of LHR and BA is still too great. It's not surprising that CX pulled out given the number of available connections on BA/CX and VS, but still, we now have 4 daily departures in that general direction by Gulf carriers, 5 if you include SQ, 7 or 8 if you add ED and PK, which is pretty darn good for a non-capital, non-hubbing 'regional' European airport.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Age: 59
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Premjet
seeking investment....................didnt
Silverjet end up doing that?
Its a fine thing to be having two silly
seasons in the same year before the
end of june.
mm
seeking investment....................didnt
Silverjet end up doing that?
Its a fine thing to be having two silly
seasons in the same year before the
end of june.
mm
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair to Brussels Charleroi
Ryanair flights to Charleroi-Brussels as follows
Mon & Fri FR8083/4 arr 0655 dep 0720
Thur FR8083/4 arr 1120 dep 1145
Sun FR8083/4 arr 0740 dep 0805
Andrew
Mon & Fri FR8083/4 arr 0655 dep 0720
Thur FR8083/4 arr 1120 dep 1145
Sun FR8083/4 arr 0740 dep 0805
Andrew
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 2,069
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't understand how these flights are going to work?
4 times weekly? Who are they exactly aimed at? Surely not business passengers? BE/SN have many daily flights which definitely satisfy the frequency and times. Can it be for the tourism market? Is there enough demand for that? Or is it for a bit of both?
Whatever it is aimed at, its FR so anything could happen!
4 times weekly? Who are they exactly aimed at? Surely not business passengers? BE/SN have many daily flights which definitely satisfy the frequency and times. Can it be for the tourism market? Is there enough demand for that? Or is it for a bit of both?
Whatever it is aimed at, its FR so anything could happen!