MANCHESTER - 5

[OltonPete]

Baby

Surely only a matter of time?

There are gaps in the schedule that they will fill, won't they?

I know Baby tend to cut some slack even with their summer schedules but at least two routes must be on the cards?

Thought BHX might have got two but one is better than nowt.

Pete

[MAN Guy]

So yet more WW expansion from BHX but still no further news about the promised MAN expansion Hopefully you're right OltonPete and its just a matter of time.

Any further rumours / news on what routes they are thought to be considering? I know MAD and WAW were mentioned on here.......I can understand MAD obviously but not sure why they would want to chase WAW with Centralwings all over this route already.

[Ian Brooks]

You still cannot book Centralwings to Warsaw after 28th March

Ian

[AndyH52]

Surely any plans WW may have had for further expansion out of MAN have gone out of the window now? They were finding it hard enough to compete with EZY / RYR before MAG decided to invite the big two to have a slice of the pie as well.

[MUFC_fan]

If WW can compete with the two airlines at a small airport like EMA, then I think MAN wouldn't be so much bother for them.

If WW can get their feet under the table and find routes that NEED services (MAD etc.) before EZY/FR get in, then they maybe able to pull it off. Remember, they are supported by a very large airline and can dig deep if needs be but I personally think they have the opportunity before next winter when the two airlines will start to push their weight around.

If LCCs want to get into the MAN market - the deadline is this summer - less there will be no point after as EZY and FR REALLY will start to flex their muscles!

[Going loco]

So, WW should deploy an expansion programme immediately because MAN "needs" some routes and if they act now, it will make EZY or FR rethink any plans they might have about expanding. Call me unconventional, but airlines will operate routes when they believe there is enough people prepared to pay a high enough price to make it worthwhile. The notion that airlines operate services into airports because the airport "needs" that service to plug a hole in its route network is nonsense, As is the idea that there is a "deadline" for anyone to do anything. The market is so fast moving and susceptible to changes in the economy that the market for services next summer could look completely different to this summer and if FR and EZY are committed to more expansion, they will do this regardless of what WW might do.

[MUFC_fan]

1. Where did I say that EZY/FR would re-think? I clearly said that if they want to get a better stance in the MAN market they will need to act before EZY and FR flood the market.
2. Where did you get the 'plug a hole in the schedule' from?! MAD, LIS, BER etc. are routes that are wanted by passengers in the region.
3. There is no 'deadline', if any airline wants to get a grip in at the airport they should do so before this time for a much easier chance than after EZY and FR move in.

Anyway, I personally think LH will replace the Berlin route if EZY or WW don't jump in soon, which doesn't look likely. Twice daily 737/A320 anyone?

[Ringwayman]

LH expansion

LH will not look to add Berlin. What may happen from them is (a) bigger aircraft on existing services e.g. A321s on all the FRA services or (b) adding a
5th service to FRA/4th service to MUC/3rd service to HAM (take your pick!)

IF a German carrier wants to add Berlin, perhaps Air Berlin may be the ones (even though they've tried it once!)

[SkinHeadFlyer]

ABs efforts last time were via STN which was a bit of a faff and with BAA charges made the whole thing expensive.

They were also in competition with Jet2 but they ditched the route last October at the same time as AB.

After my recent experiences with the "orange one" -I don't care which carrier takes it on, as long as it's german. The others including BACON have made a pigs ear of MAN-TXL/SXF.

Believe me, there is loads of potential on this route...

[ls_jet2]

MUFC Fan - The reason that there's no services to BER, MAD and LIS is that when the services were there insufficient people used them to make them financially viable to continue operating.

Skin head flyer - You also seem to be of the opinion that a Berlin route should be a winner, why then did we regularly only get loads in the 40's.

I'm afraid that these wish list routes that a few people on here think would do well just haven't been supported, by all means let Ezy or Ryr have a crack to see if they can make it work, but don't say that others haven't tried and have been forced to withdraw their offerings due to the lack of bums on seats.

[FlyZB]

Not necessarily true. EZY can make MAD work out of LPL and I would say that has a smaller catchment area than MAN. Likewise, Berlin works well out of Liverpool. Making a route successful needs a mix of good marketing, decent timings and frequencies and competitive fares. This is something that EZY and FR do well. The reputation of these airlines also benefits them greatly.

Now lets look at the MAN examples given by ls jet2.

MAD - served by BA Citiflyer initially which changed to Connect. Business & economy full service replaced by one class buy on board. The Connect product was poor, high yield pax opted for other services and despite the fact that it operated over 90% full most days, it still lost money. FlyBE decided not to take it on for this reason. ZB also had a shot at the route. Loads on their flights averaged around the 100 pax mark which wouldn't have been all that bad if it was operated on a smaller a/c but on a 174 seater A320, ZB knew that the aircraft could be better utilised elsewhere. So 2 almost full BA Connect flights everyday and 100 pax plus on ZB. Can hardly say there's lack of demand can you!

BER - AB operated this route initially with timings that were far from attractive. The MAN-TXL leg wasn't so bad but the TXL-MAN leg left Berlin at around 6am if my memory serves me correctly. The after initial loads were poor, they tweaked the schedule several times and messed with the frequencies to the point that anyone considering using the service on a regular basis didn't know where they stood. And as far as the LS service goes, that was poorly timed and poorly marketed. A friend of mine travels to Berlin regularly and he didn't even know the Jet2 service existed!

LIS - Thomsonfly does very well on this route. Loads have generally been very good, maybe dropped off a bit in Nov and Dec but that's to be expected. The main reason this is being dropped is because TOM are moving away from the low cost scheduled side of their operation and back to package charters. Therefore this route no longer features in their long term plans and the aircraft is being utilised elsewhere for the Summer. Again, hardly due to lack of demand.

There is demand for these places from MAN, its just a question of the right airline and the right attitude. Clearly the likes of Jet2 have been unsuccessful because they have not achieved the right mix to ensure that the routes are a success. EZY and FR have what it takes to make these routes work and this has been proven at LPL. The demand is there, potential passengers just need to be attracted by the right overall product.

[Mr A Tis]

Rewind

Oh dear, is it groundhog day ?
We had all these discussions only a few weeks ago re Berlin, Madrid etc etc.
eg BA flew full to Madrid twice a day, but lost millions etc etc
Jet 2 flew city routes - but at crap time etc etc

Things move on & times change. There are 2 flights a day now from LPL to MAD, so the region is served. No need for any more.

BCN is twice a day ex LPL & once from MAN, 3 flights from the region is enough.

Berlin & LIS are served perfectly well from LPL-there are not thousands of people waiting for another service.

Get real, any new routes from MAN will be few & far between & wont be to the detriment of existing services from the region. Even the dreaded Ryanair picked "alternative" routes for their splurge into the MAN scene.

[EC-ILS]

This time last year I wouldnt have said LH would start DUB-TXL but they are albeit only 3 weekly with a CRJ why wouldnt they give MAN a go?

[GLENO]

Mr A Tis,

We are talking about services from Manchester!!!!,not Speke/Liverpool/ John Lennon/Ken Dodd or what ever it is called now!! We all know that they have services to the mentioned Airports from there............

[BombardierCR7]

QUOTE BER - AB operated this route initially with timings that were far from attractive. The MAN-TXL leg wasn't so bad but the TXL-MAN leg left Berlin at around 6am if my memory serves me correctly. The after initial loads were poor, they tweaked the schedule several times and messed with the frequencies to the point that anyone considering using the service on a regular basis didn't know where they stood. And as far as the LS service goes, that was poorly timed and poorly marketed. A friend of mine travels to Berlin regularly and he didn't even know the Jet2 service existed!

I found the MAN-SXF well scheduled for both business and leisure. I used it many many times on business, (Berlin is a tourist city, not a business one so I am in the vast minority as a pax type on this route) and was more convenient than any other operator to Berlin previously from MAN, and last summer, any other direct option north of London. As for advertising, the Jet2 product appeared, and still appears on most bus shelters, buses and billboards around the north of England. It's difficult to miss it.

I rarely saw the route with over 20 pax per flight with BA Connect, and normally midweek with LS at about 40, stretching to 100 or so on a Friday night.

Perhaps the route just doesn't work.

[FlyZB]

Gleno...

Yes and I truly believe there is demand for flights to certain places, MAD definately, from both MAN & LPL. However I do agree with Mr A Tis in the sense that some destinations will not succeed from both MAN & LPL as it will over saturate the market from this region. Many of these destinations are regulars on the LPL departure board and it is unlikely they will make their way onto the MAN departure baords anytime soon, at least as far as EZY & FR is concerned. The last thing they want to do is compete against their own services 30 miles down the road.

Going loco makes a good point in tha airlines will not just start routes because there is a gap to plug, they will start routes if it is going to make them money. There are however gaping holes on the departure boards at MAN to destinations that will succeed from the airport. It is up to one of the airports operators, LCC or otherwise, to realise the potential. I think that's what MUFC fan is getting it when he talks about WW. They have to see the potential before someone else gets in there. Many routes will only sustain one carrier but if it's marketed well, it can make that carrier money. It wont be Jet2. They've tried and failed. Maybe their brand just isn't as widely recognised as other carriers.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

How are SAS doing on their routes, You never read or hear much about their Pax figures??

They must be doing ok, They have always being loyal to MAN.

I love the SAS MD81's - Roar

[Mr A Tis]

GLENO

Manchester had two daily MADs when Liverpool had none & it was non viable.

Now LPL have the two MADs in the hands of different cost base operators & MAN has none.

Therefore the region remains well served to MAD & is why nobody has been rushing in to start another one.

Likewise, TOM had a stab at LIS, however it started before EASY came in on LPL-LIS. Now that the EZY service is established, TOM drop the MAN.

You simply can't diregard whats on offer 30 miles away. The LPL services have an impact on what MAN can offer. You MAN fans simply have your head in the sands dreaming about all these routes.
It simply aint viable for airlines to compete on many (but not all) routes between the two airports.

[Ian Brooks]

As has been stated before TOM are dropping LIS because they have stopped doing city destinations

Ian

[Mr A Tis]

LIS was dropped before the TOM change of policy anyway.