Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.

CORK - 5

Old 14th Jan 2014, 22:21
  #4801 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1,625
Yes, this debt thing is something being now thrown around at Cork like the stopover, the runway, the border post, the height of the tail, the pong from me socks etc, etc. If you make a review of the Irish State and the history of all our State owned airports when has debt had anything to do with it? Only when it comes to Cork is debt put forward as a brake from anything innovative happening and it is not anything which has ever been forward to hold Shannon or Dublin back from further development.
Tom the Tenor is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2014, 22:31
  #4802 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: A warm pub
Posts: 1,210
IF Cork were made independent, the debt from the terminal would have to go to either Dublin or Cork. DAA is about 1.2 billion in debt I think? Putting all that on DUB when IIRC 200 million of that is ORK seems a bit harsh don't you think? Thankfully people far more qualified than me make these decisions........ yeah I couldn't keep a straight face with that last bit either
Una Due Tfc is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2014, 22:41
  #4803 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
Let's see,

100m of Shannon Airport debt quashed, airport set-up into new authority. In a part of the country where the population continues to decline, where industrial output continues to decline, where emigration is at its highest.

200m of Cork Airport debt can't be removed, in a growing population, where industrial output grew last year and will in 2014, where emigration is the lowest after Dublin.

Haha, yes ''qualified'' people making excellent decisions Una Due Tfc. Welcome to the Ireland of a political favour, supposedly eradicated.
Jack1985 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2014, 22:44
  #4804 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2
They are not in 1.2 billion death, don't confuse the full investment at DUB which was that figure, AFAIK its just under 550 million due by 2018.


Of course daa would take Cork's death on but could Cork turn an operating profit if separated?
EI-A330-300 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2014, 22:47
  #4805 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
Of course daa would take Cork's death on but could Cork turn an operating profit if separated?
The airport is losing money on a operational basis due to debt repayments, it has taken the action to be profitable if this is taken out, this is set to be achieved in Q2 2014, however further job cuts are inevitable if we aren't allowed to become seriously competitive.
Jack1985 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2014, 22:57
  #4806 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: A warm pub
Posts: 1,210
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a DUB or SNN or ORK champion. I want to see them all do well, I want to see DUB get the second runway. I wanto see SNN succeed, I wanto see ORK grow as the independent entity the city deserves. But the way SNN is preying on ORK atm, it would have me worried
Una Due Tfc is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2014, 23:16
  #4807 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Staff have delivered many changes at Cork in the last 5 years in terms of pay and conditions but there hasn't been a corresponding delivery in terms of traffic growth. Constant decline since 2009 even though Dublin and now Shannon is starting to grow again even if it's with the help of a few Santa Flights in the latter case!
ryan2000 is offline  
Old 14th Jan 2014, 23:59
  #4808 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: A warm pub
Posts: 1,210
DUB was always going to grow first, that's just the nature of being the business, population and tourism capital. If you had said to me SNN would grow before ORK 2 years ago I would have thought you were mad. But SNN being cut loose from the DAA changed everything. Shannon, Kerry and Cork are all competing for the same passengers. In a purely commercial environment (ie no state ownership or subsidies of any kind) it's very unlikely all 3 would survive.

We are left with the legacies of previous aircraft requirements and political interference as regards where our airports are. If you were to start from scratch, Dublin would have 2 parallel runways in excess of 3000m with 1 terminal where T1 is and another where the tower and Cityjet/Aer Arann hangars are. Cork would have 2 intersecting runways, one of which would be in excess of 3000m (in a SW/NE direction of course) and SNN would be a regional a la Knock, but probably state owned, and Knock would be as it is now. That's plenty in a country with a proper road network
Una Due Tfc is offline  
Old 15th Jan 2014, 13:05
  #4809 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ireland
Posts: 216
If you were to start from scratch
A proper airport in the middle of Ireland.

With 2 sets of parallel runways along N/S and E/W

Terminal capacity of 40 million.

Motorway to Dublin, Galway. Sligo (Dual carriage way to Letterkenny), Waterford (spurs to Kilkenny and Clonmel) Cork/Limerick (spur to Tralee).


Close everything else.

Not going to happen.


We are left with the legacies of previous aircraft requirements and political interference as regards where our airports are
This what we have and we must work with it.

I want to see DUB get the second runway
It will when the traffic levels are there.
It is factored into the CAR determination.

100m of Shannon Airport debt quashed, airport set-up into new authority.
Shannon is bundled with Shannon development to offload any State future liability.

After the next general election it will be Cork's turn.
You will find that they include any land bank in the vicinity of Cork into a "CAA" and offload it too.

By then the outstanding debt for the works done should have reduced to a level where the Minister of the day will wave his hand and make it go away.

Once there is a stand alone set up in Cork and Shannon the fun will start.
EU legislation in relation to airports was intended to promote competition? We'd be better off under the old style rules which allowed Governments issue licences for routes.
The single market is god, all 500 million citizens.
Ireland has less than 5 million citizens, 1% of the single market.
Cork/Limerick/Galway axis even less.
Competition has driven down fares giving rise to the Low-Cost model we all love.
RYANAIR and AER LINGUS will extort the maximum concessions they can from the 2 operators.
This will in turn lead them to start cutting their costs in a big way.
Staff have delivered many changes at Cork in the last 5 years in terms of pay and conditions
And more will be expected.

In a purely commercial environment (ie no state ownership or subsidies of any kind) it's very unlikely all 3 would survive
Outside of Dublin in a pure commercial world NONE of the others airports (Cork/Shannon/Kerry/Knock/Waterford/Sligo/Donegal) will survive.

They may cover most or all of their day to day costs but infrastructure will have to be bankrolled by the state.
confused atco is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2014, 15:28
  #4810 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2
confused atco


Possibly not for Cork but DUB does not and won't be getting a second runway for a very long time even if numbers go back over the limit before charges can be charged for the new runway. It will be at least 10 years before any runway application is made IMO.


Runway is currently at capacity at peak times so modest capital investment is going to be made and the number of flights per hour is being increased. No airport the size of DUB needs a second runway. LGW is the example and DUB will have a slick operation like them over the next few years with the same level of movements at certain times.
EI-A330-300 is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2014, 20:33
  #4811 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,620
A second runway for Dublin???

Last time I was there there was already 2 active runways, surely you all mean a 3rd?? If LGW can do so well on 1 there is no business case for another at Dublin though I'm told the main runway will need extensive refurbishment soon ..
EI-BUD is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2014, 21:16
  #4812 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2
EI-BUD


While this should be moved to DUB forum, yes DUB has 2 runway however they are very restricted when both are used. IAA will allow dual ops are allowed between 06.30-08.00 only however on 16/34 departures are only allowed and only 1815m of the 2072m runway are available for use. Flights going South, South West and South East of Dublin are not allowed to depart from it when both are in use. Dual ops also depend on VMC, ASMGCS while there is no backtrack.


16/34 is a crosswind runway and only used when wind changes. Aircraft must align themselves directly out from the runway around 10 miles distance.


So 28 is the preferred runway for operation, 16/34 costs airlines money on fuel, and departures fly over the city which is another problem in it's self, something which does not happen off 28.


As I say the small investment that will be made on 28 to increase capacity will do the job.
EI-A330-300 is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2014, 22:37
  #4813 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ireland
Posts: 216
DUB does not and won't be getting a second runway for a very long time even if numbers go back over the limit before charges can be charged for the new runway
I would have to disagree with you.

Ego is a great and terrible thing so there will be a new RWY when that target is achieved.

No airport the size of DUB needs a second runway. LGW is the example and DUB will have a slick operation like them over the next few years with the same level of movements at certain times
Need is part of the equation.

SESAR has looked at increased RWY occupancy using time based operations.

This will apply more at major capacity constrained airports in Europe.
confused atco is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2014, 22:52
  #4814 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2
Quote-
I would have to disagree with you.

Ego is a great and terrible thing so there will be a new RWY when that target is achieved.


Disagree all you like its fact, clearly you have not done research, it won't happen and the biggest customers won't be paying for it, the daa know this and why they have put it to bed for now, everything up to 2019 is now set out so if numbers pass they still can't build it and even in 2019 there is no guarantee they will be allowed to charge for it, EI and FR have a big say and both are in agreement and the daa can be stopped until 2022-2023.






Quote-
Need is part of the equation.

SESAR has looked at increased RWY occupancy using time based operations.

This will apply more at major capacity constrained airports in Europe.


DUB will be the exact same, works already started to increase capacity, they have being told the works required and changes needed and are working with the main parties involved.
EI-A330-300 is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2014, 23:57
  #4815 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ireland
Posts: 216
it won't happen and the biggest customers won't be paying for it,
Someone should tell IAA
confused atco is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2014, 08:32
  #4816 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,167
For those interested, Aer Arann informed servisair yesterday the Cork operation will be operated by ATR72-600's from April 2014.
Jack1985 is offline  
Old 21st Jan 2014, 23:19
  #4817 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Rumours of a new route operated by a major airline floating around the airport. Nothing more specific but it'll generate inbound tourism IF it happens.
ryan2000 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2014, 01:58
  #4818 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2
Probably be some airline out of the Lufthansa Group, hopefully it happens.
EI-A330-300 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2014, 12:18
  #4819 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,620
I'd be hugely surprised if LH or related airlines came in. What is the chances of BA reinstating its long since closed link to LHR, given the progress they have made on DUB LHR, and what seems deteriorating relationship with EI?

A daily rotation could easily facilitate the connecting traffic ex Cork via LHR?

EI-BUD
EI-BUD is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2014, 12:40
  #4820 (permalink)  
840
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ireland nowadays
Posts: 1,411
There also seem to be a few stories going round about Cork-Dublin being restarted.

Remember that single route accounts for about 40% of the passengers lost in recent years and it could be significant. I can't imagine it would come back anything like the levels it was though. Maybe a couple of flights a day to facilitate connections and that would be it. With the motorway completed and improved frequency and time on the train service, it's not likely to be interesting to anyone just going to Dublin.

Still, that frequency could mean 80K passengers a year, which is not something to take lightly.
840 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.