CORK - 5

[ryan2000]

Cork could offer zero charges to Ryanair to switch the Shannon Nantes service if they want to play by the new rules. That's about the only short-haul route that it could target. All of the other Shannon UK and Continental Routes routes are already served from Cork.

[Una Due Tfc]

IMO, one of Cork's biggest problems is Corkonians flying from Dublin on routes already served from Cork. But how do you stop this? Only way is to make Cork cheaper than Dublin. The DAA won't care about this because they are still getting their money regardless, and pax will prob spend more money in DUB because of the larger selection of shops, plus the handling fees in DUB are bound to be higher. EI and FR won't care because you are still on their aircraft. Government will prefer it because you are probably doing a bit of shopping in Dublin and maybe staying in a hotel, so more tax for them.

Only way to stop that would be for Cork to be made independent like SNN, but ORK would have to take the debt from the new terminal with them, and would be on their own to sink or swim against a debt free Kerry and Shannon, not sure if they could do that.

[confused atco]

Why can't we have a level playing pitch in Irish Aviation?

We do.
The Commission for Aviation Regulation is the economic regulator.

It tells the DAA and IAA the maximum they can charge.

Cork could offer zero charges to Ryanair to switch the Shannon Nantes service if they want to play by the new rules.

The DAA has a scheme of discounted charges for new routes which is available to any airline wishing to provide a service.

Thing to remember is that this offer is available to anyone who can/wishes to avail of it.
Very few airlines have surplus capacity to throw around willy nilly.

If they can get a better return elsewhere they are there not here.

Maybe try and get Wizz back now that FR are doing Poland from SNN

RYANAIR have encouraged them to seek pastures greener for now.

Chance of them returning to Ireland any time soon are?

Cork to be made independent like SNN,

Wait until after the next general election for this to happen.

Only way is to make Cork cheaper than Dublin.

How would you achieve this?

Airports have large fixed costs, maintenance and such.
Realistically all you have in play here are staff costs?

the handling fees in DUB are bound to be higher

Not necessarily there is a critical mass in Dublin.
This gives economies of scale.
Unit costs in Dublin are probably on average lower.

All airports hope to get better return on their staff costs if only some of those nasty T & C's could be made go away.

[EI-A330-300]

I do wonder what % of passengers have Cork lost form East Waterford mainly the city. Google travel time between Waterford and Dublin Airport is 1h55m (would of taken at least 3h-3h-30m) before the M9 while its 1h54m to Cork Airport. With Newlands Cross upgrade removing the only traffic lights and soon the M7 is being increased from 4 to 6 lanes between N7 and M9 interchange which will ease congestion at peak times and Newlands cross along will knock a few more minutes off the time.


Losing catchment area and the ever grown very short season market at all airports outside Dublin is the problem.

[Una Due Tfc]

Or North Tip. Limerick is just over 2 hours from Dublin airport. In off peak times I get from Shannon airport to Dublin airport in about 2 hours 20 mins, and I don't speed!

[ryan2000]

I'd say Cork never got too much from East Waterford. More worrying for them must be the droves of people heading by road, rail and bus to Dublin from their own doorstep.

It's almost trendy now to take the Air Coach.

[barrymah]

"This means a lot of the "locals" in Limerick/Cork/Galway etc are going to head up to Dublin, stay in one of those big hotels near the airport for the night and leave their car there for a fiver for the week."

I've no particular 'graw' for the hotel but you can get deal at the Radisson to park for nothing....

Also, if they had any sense they'd lower the rates for parking up in outer mongolia at ORK, they own the land....., have done for ever.

[840]

Possibly more of a consideration than the motorways is the number of places in Cork and Shannon's potential catchments that have direct public transport services to Dublin Airport.

Waterford, Clonmel, even Fermoy and Mitchelstown have direct services to Dublin Airport, but not Cork Airport. There's no point even mentioning places that Cork Airport would aspire to have in the catchment like Kilkenny and Wexford.

Similarly, at Shannon, places like Nenagh, Roscrea and Athlone have direct services to Dublin.

Faced with a choice of paying for fuel and parking, or taking the bus, for a lot of people it's a no brainer.

I have a suspicion that Cork and Shannon are so fearful of the loss of parking revenue that they don't see the larger opportunity in encouraging bus operators in.

At the moment, Cork isn't even served by buses coming up from West Cork, even though it would only add 5-10 mins to divert. That should be a priority, along with getting some of the buses approaching the city from the North to continue through to the airport. Considering Bus Eireann have complained that Parnell Place bus station has no more capacity, having the ability to terminate somewhere else should appeal to them.

[confused atco]

the loss of parking revenue

All ancillary revenue is vital for airports.

Faced with a choice of paying for fuel and parking,

I have seen cars parked on the outskirts of Shannon waiting for the phone call so they can drive up to arrivals. They wont even spend the couple of euro required in this scenario.


Unless there is a major road ie M18/N18 is Shannon's case and the N17 in Knock's there is not sufficient passengers using Bus Eireann for them to make the service viable.

[840]

All ancillary revenue is vital for airports.

I fear that's a case of not seeing the woods for the trees.

If the extra passengers it generates can make a route or frequency viable, the lost parking revenue will easily be earned back through other fees earned by the airport, whether landing fees, pax fees or parking fees being paid by passengers who wouldn't be using the airport if the route/frequency didn't exist. It would also mean capturing passengers who wouldn't use the airport at all otherwise.

I'm also unconvinced by the need to be near a main road. If extending through to Cork Airport works for Citylink (who are trying to run at a profit), it could just as easily work for a number of Bus Eireann services.

[Tom the Tenor]

What 840 suggests is definitely worth a go with some of the Bus Eireann city, county and expressway bus services. Try it out for the summer from April to October - the place needs some sort of break soon or Cork is going to go down the swanny. I think the situation for Cork is near to perilous - for me the tipping point has been the Modlin and Krakow situation.

[ryan2000]

Cork Katowice was Wizzair's 1st and most successful route from Cork and only ended after Ryanair commenced services to nearby Krakow in 2012. It's a no brainer for any airline to fly to one or other of these destinations from Cork if Ryanair do withdraw.

[Jack1985]

Very true Ryan, but why would they when they know that it's plausible the same airline will jump back on those route(s) without hesitation? It's why easyJet never returned and its known they're next step from Cork was Europe before being forced out of the market which they actually stimulated - easyJet were sustaining profitably 3 daily flights from Cork to Gatwick before Ryanair flooded that market, presently they really can't even fill their flights with only a daily service.

And yet we're told its all fair competition, haha.

[Tom the Tenor]

If Cork could secure a British airline from a London airport it would be a huge boost to inbound tourism.

It could be done too if there was any heart left in Cork and, of course, if the DAA were agreeable.

[Kinder]

It's a no brainer for any airline to fly to one or other of these destinations from Cork if Ryanair do withdraw.

No one will start such route. Ryanair showed that this is their territory. And Wizz experience showed there is no market for two airlines of this route. None of the routes make money in the first year of operation. So what is the message to airline X? Start the route, loose XXX thousands of Euros in the first year, then Ryanair will jump in on the second year and you will totally bleed and then withdraw?

There are no crazy airline, which could be interested in ORK-KTW/KRK.

[Jack1985]

It could be done too if there was any heart left in Cork and, of course, if the DAA were agreeable.

Tom there's plenty of heart left in Cork, its people controlling its affairs not robots. And seriously this DAA thing is getting tiring, they don't sit in a room stroking a pussycat dictating who gets what etc - At the end of the day like any job you pitch well, you do well. Maybe thats what needs checking, the recent management changes at Cork do nothing - Saddens me to say it but there's going to have to be job cuts at Cork, we are uncompetitive and there needs to be a dramatic u-turn in the airports affairs, a more hands on approach with airlines on a daily basis is needed - There are no rebates, it works well in Dublin so why not say to an airline in Cork gives us 25K passengers we give you package A, B etc. The problem? Cork Management have not requested such a thing.

I don't see any UK based airline especially from London coming here in the medium-term, its suicidal with harps hanging around declining traffic to suit their own agenda.

I said it in 2012, the news when Ryanair went east was going to end badly, it did, managements approach back then should have been to offer Ryanair a better package to more organic routes. The fact MOL carried on this chatter that Wizz were ripping people off, total and utter bull - This the same carrier who takes the stealth approach to destroy traffic, and up prices. Places like Italy, Portugal and Spain can handle competition in the Summer they are demand lead, whether as Wizz on the Polish routes were Price lead and that stimulated demand - There was never going to be competition with Ryanair in Poland it would be a case of who jumps first, and Wizz had the brain to cut their losses.

Such a pity back in 2005 that management even agreed to giving Ryanair a base deal, we lost basically two routes Dublin and Gatwick, the later did outstanding under EZY.

I'll probably get told now that to refuse them a base deal was uncompetitive and all that, but Cork would be in a better place now if they would presently be operating to just Liverpool and Stansted. I can guarantee you that.

[Jack1985]

Just to add I could see Aer Lingus operating Cork - Krakow come late October, only because they were asked to operate it before after Centralwings went to the wall and they at the time believed only Cork - Warsaw (which they then operated) would be popular with Irish pax ex-Cork and secondly probably the only carrier with balls to take on Ryanair, the one thing Ryanair (and only good thing) did operating to Krakow was create basically a 50/50 of inbound/outbound passengers - was hugely popular, it's an agenda game with Ryanair never been so clear to me in all my time in this sector.

[ryan2000]

EU legislation in relation to airports was intended to promote competition? We'd be better off under the old style rules which allowed Governments issue licences for routes.

Cork is now down to two brand names and this is very unhealthy particularly as the same two brands are dominant in Shannon and on almost all of the short haul routes out of Dublin. The DAA must stand four square behind Cork or relinquish its responsibility for it.

[Una Due Tfc]

Be careful what you wish for Ryan. As I said earlier, an independent Cork would be in alot of debt from the new terminal. That would inhibit them in competing with SNN a great deal. Combine that with trans-atlantic connectivity, and an independent Cork MIGHT find itself in trouble very quickly.

[Jack1985]

I love how Cork has to deal with its debts? Did Shannon have a special inhibitant that prevented them from doing the same? Don't think so!!