CARDIFF - 3
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The post above Twin Aisles is obviously written by someone who hasn't visited Cardiff and South Wales in some time. The Vale of Glamorgan in which the Airport is situated is an area which has one of the highest qualities of living in the UK, Properties in Cardiff have hit the Million Plus market and it is a strong vibrant economy. As for cultural black hole have you heard of the Wales Millennium centre.
Some one with an axe to grind no doubt, we may not have the same catchment area as Bristol, that has never been disputed but the people want to fly from Cardiff they can't get the flights hence many travelling to Bristol and Birmingham.
There was a time when Cardiff outstripped Bristol in movements, I don't think anyone is expecting in the short term for this to happen but with a bit of nerve there are long haul options which could legitimately be offered as an Alternative to the South East.
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Oooo handbags at dawn! Lets not get dragged into the my aiports better than your airport debate based on such bizzare logic - take a look around Fishponds or St Pauls as an example of the sh*t holes in BRS catchment area.
Only the government is foolish enough to beleive that census statistics are a measure of population - fair few Jedi's out there as I seem to recall from the 2001 census, perhaps EZY should start flights to Dagobar? According to the census Manchester is a city of 400,000 rather than the 2.5M it really is, utter nonsense derived from atrificail local authority boundaries. As a conurbation SE Wales (Cardiff) has a population in excess of 1.5M - this is obviously something completely different to the catchment area of CWL as an airport, this is measured in travel time.
Rant over. On another note good to see TOM finally anouncing Barcelona - what happened to Saltzburg?
Wonder what else the RDF fancy chucking a couple of quid at? I hope Flybe are talking nicely to Andrew Davies!
MB
Only the government is foolish enough to beleive that census statistics are a measure of population - fair few Jedi's out there as I seem to recall from the 2001 census, perhaps EZY should start flights to Dagobar? According to the census Manchester is a city of 400,000 rather than the 2.5M it really is, utter nonsense derived from atrificail local authority boundaries. As a conurbation SE Wales (Cardiff) has a population in excess of 1.5M - this is obviously something completely different to the catchment area of CWL as an airport, this is measured in travel time.
Rant over. On another note good to see TOM finally anouncing Barcelona - what happened to Saltzburg?
Wonder what else the RDF fancy chucking a couple of quid at? I hope Flybe are talking nicely to Andrew Davies!
MB
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I'm in Cardiff all the time. Nonetheless:
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) published new earnings statistics for 2006 on 26 October 2006. Detailed results can be found on the ONS web http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBAS...asp?vlnk=13101
* Mean gross weekly earnings for full-time adults in Wales were £469.8 in April 2006, 87.4 per cent of the average for the UK as a whole (£537.3).
* Gross weekly earnings in Wales increased by 3.3 per cent between 2005 and 2006, compared to a 4.1 per cent increase across the UK as a whole.
* Wales had the second lowest average weekly earnings amongst UK countries and English regions in 2006, after the North East (£466.7).
So its nearly the poorest paid, its getting worse and you have to go to Newcastle to find anywhere worse. Cardiff ariports problems have nothing to do with management or operations and everything to do with a small and poor catchment area.
Lovely place and lovely people though.
AP
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) published new earnings statistics for 2006 on 26 October 2006. Detailed results can be found on the ONS web http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBAS...asp?vlnk=13101
* Mean gross weekly earnings for full-time adults in Wales were £469.8 in April 2006, 87.4 per cent of the average for the UK as a whole (£537.3).
* Gross weekly earnings in Wales increased by 3.3 per cent between 2005 and 2006, compared to a 4.1 per cent increase across the UK as a whole.
* Wales had the second lowest average weekly earnings amongst UK countries and English regions in 2006, after the North East (£466.7).
So its nearly the poorest paid, its getting worse and you have to go to Newcastle to find anywhere worse. Cardiff ariports problems have nothing to do with management or operations and everything to do with a small and poor catchment area.
Lovely place and lovely people though.
AP
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The figures for Wales are highly unreliable for Cardiff simply because it doesn't take into account that vast areas of mid and north wales, which are undoubtedly very poor areas of the UK yes, but are hardly catchment areas for CWL. Compare this with the GDP figures for Cardiff and the Vale alone which produce £8.335bn a year. And that's only £3bn behind Bristol, North Somerset and Gloucestershire! I recently read that by 2015 Cardiff will have narrowed the gap further. So you can hardly say Cardiff cannot support a good regional network of business flights and holiday flights - the fact is that Cardiff, if it had an airport with a few more links - would attract a lot more inbound passengers and tourists than BRS as well.
Don't forget that Swansea and West Wales don't have an airport of their own and their figures can generally be added to the CWL catchment figures. 10 -15% of CWL's pax are from the South West as well so despite the fact that BRS has better links than CWL there are still South Western pax coming to CWL, which just shows that CWL's catchment area can also extend east towards Bristol.
Don't forget that Swansea and West Wales don't have an airport of their own and their figures can generally be added to the CWL catchment figures. 10 -15% of CWL's pax are from the South West as well so despite the fact that BRS has better links than CWL there are still South Western pax coming to CWL, which just shows that CWL's catchment area can also extend east towards Bristol.
Brunel to Concorde
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Probably the bottom line is that the Bristol City region is more populous and more prosperous than the comparable Cardiff one - but certainly not to the extent that the disparity in airport passenger figures and routes would indicate.
Figures provided by both the CAA and the airports suggest that both airports take approximately 10% of their passenger numbers from the other’s core catchment area, although in actual numbers it means a lot more South Wales pax use BRS than West Country people use CWL.
Bristol might enjoy two advantages over CWL in that its relative success suggests the quality of its management team is higher, and it also has a lot more well-off people who want to use their dosh for leisure travel – many of these live away from the immediate city conurbation in places like the Cotswolds and the shire counties of Wiltshire and Somerset. It is likely that some could be attracted to CWL (or to EXT or SOU or BHX) if the right product was available.
In fact, it happened to an extent when bmibaby first flew out of CWL and had very low, probably loss-leader, fares on the sun routes also flown by easyJet from BRS. For a time the Bristol Evening Post carried stories of people who lived near BRS travelling across the bridge to save money on their air fare. It largely died out when baby raised their fares to more realistic levels.
BRS master plan figures show 45% of its passengers come from the former Avon area with 25% from Bristol itself. Other significant areas that each provide around 10% or slightly higher of BRS's pax are South Wales, Devon and Somerset.
CWL on the other hand enjoys a site without the physical restrictions that occur at BRS and is able to take larger aircraft on longer routes. CWL also has access to a RDF, something not available at BRS.
If the two airports are to get anywhere near their 2015 annual passenger figure targets they will have to grow at an almost identical pace in real terms over the next nine years: CWL from 2 million to 5 million and BRS from just under 5 ¾ million to near 9 million.
Figures provided by both the CAA and the airports suggest that both airports take approximately 10% of their passenger numbers from the other’s core catchment area, although in actual numbers it means a lot more South Wales pax use BRS than West Country people use CWL.
Bristol might enjoy two advantages over CWL in that its relative success suggests the quality of its management team is higher, and it also has a lot more well-off people who want to use their dosh for leisure travel – many of these live away from the immediate city conurbation in places like the Cotswolds and the shire counties of Wiltshire and Somerset. It is likely that some could be attracted to CWL (or to EXT or SOU or BHX) if the right product was available.
In fact, it happened to an extent when bmibaby first flew out of CWL and had very low, probably loss-leader, fares on the sun routes also flown by easyJet from BRS. For a time the Bristol Evening Post carried stories of people who lived near BRS travelling across the bridge to save money on their air fare. It largely died out when baby raised their fares to more realistic levels.
BRS master plan figures show 45% of its passengers come from the former Avon area with 25% from Bristol itself. Other significant areas that each provide around 10% or slightly higher of BRS's pax are South Wales, Devon and Somerset.
CWL on the other hand enjoys a site without the physical restrictions that occur at BRS and is able to take larger aircraft on longer routes. CWL also has access to a RDF, something not available at BRS.
If the two airports are to get anywhere near their 2015 annual passenger figure targets they will have to grow at an almost identical pace in real terms over the next nine years: CWL from 2 million to 5 million and BRS from just under 5 ¾ million to near 9 million.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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ABeamPoints
You are using statistics rather as a drunk uses a lamp-post - rather more for support than illumination.
Cardiff's population is NOT the same as Wales' population. To say that Wales has a lower average income than the rest of the UK forgets a couple of key points:
1. Parts of Wales are relatively very deprived - mainly the Mid Wales farming communities. This means that the average for Wales is lowered, and DOES NOT imply that Cardiff must be poor compared to the UK.
2. Figures for the UK include the considerable skewing effect of London and the Home Counties. I would bet that all the cities in the UK are behind London in terms of growth and prosperity; why don't you present figures that compare Cardiff and the immediate hinterland (including, as Flower noted, the affluent Vale area) with, say, Bristol, Newcastle etc - rather than use the whole country's stats and try to draw local conclusions from them?
No-one here is saying that CWL should be the size of STN or LGW. We know that, like just about every other regional airport in the UK, the local catchment does just not support that. What we are saying - and MV, as ever, hits the nail on the head - is that given the catchment, the communications and the general growth in the Cardiff area, the airport should be doing sharply better than it is.
Blaming the airport for airline failures is, I am afraid to say, fatuous. Using the airport as the common factor for failed airlines is rather akin to saying that coffins kill dead people, since all dead people have them.
CWL did not kill BA - BA did that. If CWL killed BA, then I name as co-defendents PLH, MAN, BHX, BRS, ABZ and every other airport that BACon were at.
CWL did not kill Cambrian. That was BA as well.
CWL did not kill Air Wales. People who worked there know who did that.
Flower, your pitch is safe if I get Harry!
You are using statistics rather as a drunk uses a lamp-post - rather more for support than illumination.
Cardiff's population is NOT the same as Wales' population. To say that Wales has a lower average income than the rest of the UK forgets a couple of key points:
1. Parts of Wales are relatively very deprived - mainly the Mid Wales farming communities. This means that the average for Wales is lowered, and DOES NOT imply that Cardiff must be poor compared to the UK.
2. Figures for the UK include the considerable skewing effect of London and the Home Counties. I would bet that all the cities in the UK are behind London in terms of growth and prosperity; why don't you present figures that compare Cardiff and the immediate hinterland (including, as Flower noted, the affluent Vale area) with, say, Bristol, Newcastle etc - rather than use the whole country's stats and try to draw local conclusions from them?
No-one here is saying that CWL should be the size of STN or LGW. We know that, like just about every other regional airport in the UK, the local catchment does just not support that. What we are saying - and MV, as ever, hits the nail on the head - is that given the catchment, the communications and the general growth in the Cardiff area, the airport should be doing sharply better than it is.
Blaming the airport for airline failures is, I am afraid to say, fatuous. Using the airport as the common factor for failed airlines is rather akin to saying that coffins kill dead people, since all dead people have them.
CWL did not kill BA - BA did that. If CWL killed BA, then I name as co-defendents PLH, MAN, BHX, BRS, ABZ and every other airport that BACon were at.
CWL did not kill Cambrian. That was BA as well.
CWL did not kill Air Wales. People who worked there know who did that.
Flower, your pitch is safe if I get Harry!
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I just wanted to know really why did Air Wales collapse? I find it odd because from the news archives everywhere all you can see is 'Air Wales adds new routes', 'air wales pax boom' etc etc so why did it suddenly just dissapear?
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'So its nearly the poorest paid, its getting worse and you have to go to Newcastle to find anywhere worse.'
So why has the North East - a poorer region than Wales - have an airport that boasts ryanair, easyjet as well as lufthansa and boast links to Brussels, Milan and Rome while the wealthier catchment area around Cardiff Airport doesn't?
So why has the North East - a poorer region than Wales - have an airport that boasts ryanair, easyjet as well as lufthansa and boast links to Brussels, Milan and Rome while the wealthier catchment area around Cardiff Airport doesn't?
Whatever way the numbers crunch the sad fact remains that CWL has been unable to nurture nor keep any kind of decent airline presence over the last 20 years. Hopefully that will change.
Everyone North of Brecon uses Birmingham or Manch/Lpool. Which leaves you with tiny little Cardiff all dressed up in its new dockland frock and then the horrors of Merthyr, Ponty and the rest of the economic black hole that is South Wales. Perhaps thats the real reason. Doubtless the Cardiff City Slickers and Glamorgan Cricket Club types will puff themselves into a fit of indignation but I'm Welsh and I have to drive through a lot of it and you can't deny that a lot of it is very rough.
Cheers
WWW
Everyone North of Brecon uses Birmingham or Manch/Lpool. Which leaves you with tiny little Cardiff all dressed up in its new dockland frock and then the horrors of Merthyr, Ponty and the rest of the economic black hole that is South Wales. Perhaps thats the real reason. Doubtless the Cardiff City Slickers and Glamorgan Cricket Club types will puff themselves into a fit of indignation but I'm Welsh and I have to drive through a lot of it and you can't deny that a lot of it is very rough.
Cheers
WWW
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Now I know disagreeing with a mod is a bit of a no-no.
So let me start with the things I agree with WWW over.
Well, unfortunately pretty accurate.
Thought you worked in BRS? Not been to Bedminster then? Bits of almost every area of the planet are grim.
But.
Drivel, I am afraid.
Well, it looks a hell of a lot more affluent from where I sit than great chunks of the rest of the UK. Are we the richest bit? No. But as I said, we should have more aviation success than we do.
For the record, I don't associate with either camp.
Cardiff's biggest problem as an airport being honest is other people's attitudes - and in many cases, the attitudes of Welsh people like you, WWW. I have worked in the airline business for donkey's years, not as a pilot, but in higher management, and trust me, there is a real attitude of "Taffy wants an airline? Don't be silly". The majority of this attitude comes from people born west of Chepstow.
So let me start with the things I agree with WWW over.
CWL has been unable to nurture nor keep any kind of decent airline presence over the last 20 years
a lot of it is very rough
But.
Everyone North of Brecon uses Birmingham or Manch/Lpool.
the economic black hole that is South Wales
Cardiff City Slickers and Glamorgan Cricket Club types
Cardiff's biggest problem as an airport being honest is other people's attitudes - and in many cases, the attitudes of Welsh people like you, WWW. I have worked in the airline business for donkey's years, not as a pilot, but in higher management, and trust me, there is a real attitude of "Taffy wants an airline? Don't be silly". The majority of this attitude comes from people born west of Chepstow.
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There is no question that South Wales in the past has suffered from economic disasters, some of us would say the Welsh Assembly Government is yet one more of those but the place is changing. It is all well and good for those who say they pass through or visit that it is some seedy backwater but those of us who live and work here would beg to differ.
As with any succesful city and we have two particularly good sized ones, Cardiff and Swansea, there is always drift towards the outlying areas, we are seeing the gentrification of many Valleys towns nowclose to the urban areas.
As a Mid Wales lady I know how the preferred option is Cardiff but as well know if you can't get the flights you go elsewhere hence the drift from Wales to Birmingham and Bristol. The passengers are there they are flying from other airports. North Wales does not come into the equation when we talk about Cardiff airport which again distorts any figures which may have been quoted.
It should be doing far better as Twin Aisle says, the sad fact is though that the only Airline of late that has put any real commitment into Cardiff was Air Wales. What a crying shame a certain someone didn't listen to the experts.
As with any succesful city and we have two particularly good sized ones, Cardiff and Swansea, there is always drift towards the outlying areas, we are seeing the gentrification of many Valleys towns nowclose to the urban areas.
As a Mid Wales lady I know how the preferred option is Cardiff but as well know if you can't get the flights you go elsewhere hence the drift from Wales to Birmingham and Bristol. The passengers are there they are flying from other airports. North Wales does not come into the equation when we talk about Cardiff airport which again distorts any figures which may have been quoted.
It should be doing far better as Twin Aisle says, the sad fact is though that the only Airline of late that has put any real commitment into Cardiff was Air Wales. What a crying shame a certain someone didn't listen to the experts.
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Sorry but i still standby my belief that FLYBE is good news for Cwl!
I say this because cardiff is`nt exactly fighting off the low-cost carriers,considering two are operating quite close already!As pointed out already Exeter has`nt faired to badly with Flybe.The size and capability of this airline compared to say Eastern,must be looked at ie emb 195!
I say this because cardiff is`nt exactly fighting off the low-cost carriers,considering two are operating quite close already!As pointed out already Exeter has`nt faired to badly with Flybe.The size and capability of this airline compared to say Eastern,must be looked at ie emb 195!
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Sorry, PiperTommy, the "flybe did well by EXT" argument won't translate to them doing their best for CWL. As I said posts and posts back, what CWL needs is someone who actually cares about CWL as their hometown airport. Remember where flybe is based!
I suggest you don't actually know this. My point in any case was that flybe being here makes life that little bit harder for anyone looking to set up a low cost base at the airport.
EMB195 at CWL? Dreaming I am afraid!
cardiff is`nt exactly fighting off the low-cost carriers
EMB195 at CWL? Dreaming I am afraid!
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I can see your point!But we don`t know what is in store!!Why not emb 195?Got to base them somewhere Would be nice to have a big low cost i agree,But time is rolling on and nothing to date has happened.
Would be nice to have a big low cost i agree,But time is rolling on and nothing to date has happened.
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Why no 195s? Cheeky Visual sussed this one pages back.
They really haven't ordered that many of these things you know...
there is absolutely NO WAY Flybe will ever put anything through CWL other than the Q400 BHX, SOU, EXT are much further up the food chain in FLYBE and the very small number of 195s they are having are already allocated
Many people tend to forget that, whilst headquartered at Exeter, the airport was for many years the poor relation in Flybe's network. Only services to Belfast, Dublin and the Channel Islands were operated. Since the new services began to be introduced a couple of years ago Exeter has boomed. Why should Cardiff not experience the same?
Guess we could go on all day about this,time will tell what there plans for Cardiff are.I`m in work today and the place is dead?
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We need increased frequency on flights to Ireland, the capacity has dropped considerably since both Air Wales and Ryanair departed, Paris needs filling urgently and with only one flight per day to Glasgow that surely must be an option.
I'm told that BMI Baby could increase their frequency on both Malaga and Edinburgh and still have all the flights full.( no figures to back me up on that just hearsay)
I don't think places such as Rome ,Budapest, Nice etc would necessarily have a chance as a daily flight but maybe a number of flights a week could work?
Yet again this morning a discussion amongst non airport people ( My Physio class) they all said I want to fly from Cardiff but can't get the flights, something needs to be done.
I'm told that BMI Baby could increase their frequency on both Malaga and Edinburgh and still have all the flights full.( no figures to back me up on that just hearsay)
I don't think places such as Rome ,Budapest, Nice etc would necessarily have a chance as a daily flight but maybe a number of flights a week could work?
Yet again this morning a discussion amongst non airport people ( My Physio class) they all said I want to fly from Cardiff but can't get the flights, something needs to be done.