CARDIFF - 3
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 55
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone, might have been Flower, once wisely observed that the EK/Cardiff thing has to do the rounds every few months on PPRUNE.....
Just think for a second about the EK route network. What they are trying to do is cover as much of the UK population as they can. Which means that they serve London (a lot), the Midlands and Wales (via BHX and MAN), Scotland (from GLA). The big hole was the North/North East, that they have now filled with the NCL service.
Why would they do Cardiff when they have great service from BHX? They may want to serve everywhere eventually, but in the meantime they will have higher priorities than Cardiff - like great chunks of Africa, Asia and North and South America.
On a different note:
So? What's the yield? Load is pretty meanin.... oh, I can't be arsed to type it again....
Just think for a second about the EK route network. What they are trying to do is cover as much of the UK population as they can. Which means that they serve London (a lot), the Midlands and Wales (via BHX and MAN), Scotland (from GLA). The big hole was the North/North East, that they have now filled with the NCL service.
Why would they do Cardiff when they have great service from BHX? They may want to serve everywhere eventually, but in the meantime they will have higher priorities than Cardiff - like great chunks of Africa, Asia and North and South America.
On a different note:
At the moment the loads are around the 80 on the WW Ams
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
unfortunatly TWINAISLE i am not aware of the Yield on Bmi Baby flight to/from Amsterdam, i was just responding to CWL747's query of the loads.
If anyone does know the yield feel free to contribute.
I do know that a couple of BMI Baby's International flights are NON-OP at the moment though, but they vary each day.
With the Glasgow falling to once daily soon, does anyone know which route they will increase the frequency to? Or will they just drop the route?
If anyone does know the yield feel free to contribute.
I do know that a couple of BMI Baby's International flights are NON-OP at the moment though, but they vary each day.
With the Glasgow falling to once daily soon, does anyone know which route they will increase the frequency to? Or will they just drop the route?
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 55
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot on, Teifiboy - that is how the industry works.
No-one outside baby will have sensible baby yield data. That's the point. The number of people on any given flight means just about nothing, and tells the observer zilch about the route's performance....
No-one outside baby will have sensible baby yield data. That's the point. The number of people on any given flight means just about nothing, and tells the observer zilch about the route's performance....
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dont baby already have too much on sale for s07 to allow them to reduce the CWl fleet?
There has also been comment on this thread from sources who 'appear to be in the know' re Baby's ex CWL yields which seems to support them being very good. In view of this not getting the addition 73 would be a disappointment rather than any real chance of loosing one of the existing CWL fleet
There has also been comment on this thread from sources who 'appear to be in the know' re Baby's ex CWL yields which seems to support them being very good. In view of this not getting the addition 73 would be a disappointment rather than any real chance of loosing one of the existing CWL fleet
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Global Nomad
Age: 55
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, by all accounts baby are doing well out of Cardiff. But the question is, would the aircraft at Cardiff be better off somewhere else?
If you are making, say, £1k per rotation on CWL-XXX, great. But if you can use the same aircraft to do for the sake of argument, BHX-YYY, guess where it is going if you make £1.5k per rotation....
As for whether baby have too much on sale to chop - compare factum MME...
If you are making, say, £1k per rotation on CWL-XXX, great. But if you can use the same aircraft to do for the sake of argument, BHX-YYY, guess where it is going if you make £1.5k per rotation....
As for whether baby have too much on sale to chop - compare factum MME...
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From following the situation re CWL and Baby very closely (for personal reasons !) I think it is extremely unlikely Baby will strip CWL of anymore aircraft. They want to expand the base. The fact they haven't is nothing to do with any percieved problem with CWL itself or to a lesser extent the management of it. It is due to the fact that there are just bigger things going on in the industry that make small companies, like Baby, have to think long and hard before committing valuable and finite resources. Every penny counts.
The Yields at CWL, I have it on good authority, are higher than BHX, BUT, BHX is where the battle lines are being drawn. Baby admit they do not compete with Easy and Ryanair. They can't. For them the enemy is Fly Be and the main arena is BHX. That's why a/c 21 is almost certainly going there. MME never made any money, they gave it a chance, it never picked up so they shipped out. CWL is not in that position. If more resources become available CWL will get a share. Unfortunately not this year.
Once the dust settles on the BACON / Fly Be fiasco we will all know more.
And while I'm at it on a related point a few comments back. The reason BRS has trumped Cardiff is that when Go were looking for a base BRS had a plan for a new terminal, a runway extension and a massive inprovement in failities. CWL didn't and still doesn't. There's no point whinging and moaning about the unfairness of it all what has actually been done to positively attracted the airlines ! Nothing ! A half hearted rail service, a tent and some crinkly tin walkways just isn't going to attract Emirates ! It's not all about location and catchment area It's about facilities CWL hasn't got and isn't getting any time soon. It is irrelevent whether the CWL area can sustain scheduled services to the world and beyond. It isn't going to get any until it has the minimum facilities companies like EK expect. Airports like BHX, BRS and NCL have moved way ahead. Sorry in this case the chicken has to come first ! No serious investment QED No new services by serious carriers.
CWL is in an unfortunate location. For it to compete with BRS it's facilities and transport links have to be three or four times better. BRS is as bad as CWL to get to, BUT, more people can get to it. If 25 years ago the council's had committed to CWL and built the damn road history may have been very different. With any luck the new infrastructure for St Athan will have a positive impact on CWL's chances, but, without a quality plan for a new 21st century terminal or at least a credible redevelopment of the old one I think it may be too little too late.
Please don't get me wrong I really want CWL to succeed (I want to work there again!) but covering your eyes and ears and shouting all will be well when three new stands are open and how unfair all the airlines are not to come here is just not accepting the real problems.
Blimey that was a long post !
The Yields at CWL, I have it on good authority, are higher than BHX, BUT, BHX is where the battle lines are being drawn. Baby admit they do not compete with Easy and Ryanair. They can't. For them the enemy is Fly Be and the main arena is BHX. That's why a/c 21 is almost certainly going there. MME never made any money, they gave it a chance, it never picked up so they shipped out. CWL is not in that position. If more resources become available CWL will get a share. Unfortunately not this year.
Once the dust settles on the BACON / Fly Be fiasco we will all know more.
And while I'm at it on a related point a few comments back. The reason BRS has trumped Cardiff is that when Go were looking for a base BRS had a plan for a new terminal, a runway extension and a massive inprovement in failities. CWL didn't and still doesn't. There's no point whinging and moaning about the unfairness of it all what has actually been done to positively attracted the airlines ! Nothing ! A half hearted rail service, a tent and some crinkly tin walkways just isn't going to attract Emirates ! It's not all about location and catchment area It's about facilities CWL hasn't got and isn't getting any time soon. It is irrelevent whether the CWL area can sustain scheduled services to the world and beyond. It isn't going to get any until it has the minimum facilities companies like EK expect. Airports like BHX, BRS and NCL have moved way ahead. Sorry in this case the chicken has to come first ! No serious investment QED No new services by serious carriers.
CWL is in an unfortunate location. For it to compete with BRS it's facilities and transport links have to be three or four times better. BRS is as bad as CWL to get to, BUT, more people can get to it. If 25 years ago the council's had committed to CWL and built the damn road history may have been very different. With any luck the new infrastructure for St Athan will have a positive impact on CWL's chances, but, without a quality plan for a new 21st century terminal or at least a credible redevelopment of the old one I think it may be too little too late.
Please don't get me wrong I really want CWL to succeed (I want to work there again!) but covering your eyes and ears and shouting all will be well when three new stands are open and how unfair all the airlines are not to come here is just not accepting the real problems.
Blimey that was a long post !
Last edited by CheekyVisual; 29th Jan 2007 at 14:28.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cardiff, UK
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the heads up about the meeting Smile!! Would like to come as a "member of public", but I can't get home in time. I expect someone will have good questions about expansion of potential European routes, such as Nice and Pisa etc. Would also be good to mention a fast Cardiff, Barry, Rhoose CWL railway service, possibly by diverting some of the direct services around the Vale of Glamorgan if someone from Arriva is there.
Also, just so you know I practice what I preach, I am going on holiday to Bergen soon. This time, I am going to show a little loyalty, so my route is CWL-AMS and then on to Bergen via KLM. Not as cheap, but less hassle with a two year old than dragging to Stanstead or Man.
PS...the rail service is 3/4 hearted, not 1/2 hearted....
Daniel
Also, just so you know I practice what I preach, I am going on holiday to Bergen soon. This time, I am going to show a little loyalty, so my route is CWL-AMS and then on to Bergen via KLM. Not as cheap, but less hassle with a two year old than dragging to Stanstead or Man.
PS...the rail service is 3/4 hearted, not 1/2 hearted....
Daniel
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
that was an excillent post Cheekyvisual.
I can say that i can't find anything wrong with it, I do know that the tent has been brought down and a strucure is being built instead of it, i believe it will be A proper baggage belt and hopefully an extension to the departure loung.
By looking at the CWL masterplan i guess the reason why the new walkways look temperary is that they wish to extend the walkway by the year 2015, in the direction of BAMC on stand 13. (4 Stands each side of the walkway, facing each other, with walkway in middle. This would increase the number of stands by 2. Also the disused runway would be used as a taxiway. But we would loose all the Echo stands that are used for rugby flights.
http://info.cwlfly.com/en/content/4/274/masterplan.html
A lot more will need to be done though to attract decent new airlines into CWL, including the Transport Infrastructure and improved access to the airport. (Hopefully the successful bid at St Athan, will help this one come sooner rather than later).
I have also heard rumours that all of upstairs will become the departure lounge, i believe this will help things and also possibly give more area for retail.
I don't believe that the 4th WW A/C will come this year, but 'if Flybe' expands quickly at CWL then we may see BMI Baby also expand quickly at CWL as they are doing at Birmingham.
I can say that i can't find anything wrong with it, I do know that the tent has been brought down and a strucure is being built instead of it, i believe it will be A proper baggage belt and hopefully an extension to the departure loung.
By looking at the CWL masterplan i guess the reason why the new walkways look temperary is that they wish to extend the walkway by the year 2015, in the direction of BAMC on stand 13. (4 Stands each side of the walkway, facing each other, with walkway in middle. This would increase the number of stands by 2. Also the disused runway would be used as a taxiway. But we would loose all the Echo stands that are used for rugby flights.
http://info.cwlfly.com/en/content/4/274/masterplan.html
A lot more will need to be done though to attract decent new airlines into CWL, including the Transport Infrastructure and improved access to the airport. (Hopefully the successful bid at St Athan, will help this one come sooner rather than later).
I have also heard rumours that all of upstairs will become the departure lounge, i believe this will help things and also possibly give more area for retail.
I don't believe that the 4th WW A/C will come this year, but 'if Flybe' expands quickly at CWL then we may see BMI Baby also expand quickly at CWL as they are doing at Birmingham.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It wasn't me who was calling for the DXB route but several press releases by CWL themselves have been banging on about this and NYC for years now. What I was trying to say was if they are so keen, why haven't they made progress not only there but in getting atleast a Paris or German or even Italian service. I mean even Norwich and Coventry have a Paris route and I don't think you would need a sparkling terminal or massive renovation to make that route viable. If small airports like that can support it, why can't CWL?
Also, why is there a lack of change in the terminal itself, didn't abertis promise millions to help upgrade the airport's facilities including a new multi-storey car park?
Also, why is there a lack of change in the terminal itself, didn't abertis promise millions to help upgrade the airport's facilities including a new multi-storey car park?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this talk about NYC/DXB etc. As stated previously, DXB is well served from BHX, less than 2 hrs up the road. EWR is served from BRS, would another operator succeed? Bearing in mind part of the situation is for the airport to attract the operator. But surely its the operator that needs to make the route succeed.
An airline would have to gamble on either making CWL work for them or placing the a/c elsewhere on a possiblly higher earning route. E.G EK placing a Daily A330 into CWL (like NCL) or expanding their route network as someone has mentioned into USA/Africa etc.
Whilst i agree the terminal needs a good sorting out. From a business point of view, would it be commercially viable for Abertis to spend millions on a terminal, just to maybe attract an extra 2/3 long haul routes??
I have to say the new walkway is a load of rubbish. Its like walking through a cold school corridor. Pax are certainly not happy with it. The lack of seating is ridiculous for a boarding area. I assume this is as gates 12-15 are only temporary, Hopefully when the next stage is built out towards BAMC they will build it properly with plenty of space and some basic facilities!
Gate 15 is a waste of time, they could put a basic domestic arrivals hall there, with one, maybe two belts. Simple yet basic, but avoiding the long walk and fiasco situation that immigration are causing with domestic flights.
We have a serious problem with lack of space to expand the apron area, without serious investment. Any airline looking at expanding would have to get the airport to sort out stands. If Flybe and Baby were to eventually further expand, and the possibility of XL coming back in 2008, parking space will be tight!
The road/rail/bus link is also down to the council/road/rail operators. Hopefully with the recent news regarding St Athan, that may push the road we need forward.
The road from Culverhouse down to Rhoose is constantly chocker. Something needs to be done just to cut the traffic. A road from M4-A48-Rhoose would be ideal, this would not only benifit the airport, but people of rhoose and cut traffic going through the top of Barry and Wenvoe, which in turn would cut traffic on the nightmare Culverhouse cross roundabout which is a constant bottlenexk throughout the day.
Baby...baby have no get up and go at the moment. Its as if they are scared to do anything. They are the main domestic operator at CWL, yet as someone mentioned they are cutting the GLA to x1 daily? Which is no good for business pax surely. If Flybe had any sense and did come into CWL they would only face serious competition on a few routes. E.G BFS/BHD, EDI, GLA. They could open several new french/German routes, NCL, GLA, EDI, INV etc which could mean at least one based A/c.
As for Paris, if TOM continue to mirror their low-cost bases elsewhere, im sure they will possibly go for a paris route. BOH and CVT offer PRG and AMS, but i cant see TOM operating these route as they are already covered by baby.
And to finish my rant. Hopefully the masterplan will come into effecto much before 2015, the plans they have offered for 2015 need to be sorted now, otherwise the airport will go nowhere for years and fall even further behind BRS' shadow.
An airline would have to gamble on either making CWL work for them or placing the a/c elsewhere on a possiblly higher earning route. E.G EK placing a Daily A330 into CWL (like NCL) or expanding their route network as someone has mentioned into USA/Africa etc.
Whilst i agree the terminal needs a good sorting out. From a business point of view, would it be commercially viable for Abertis to spend millions on a terminal, just to maybe attract an extra 2/3 long haul routes??
I have to say the new walkway is a load of rubbish. Its like walking through a cold school corridor. Pax are certainly not happy with it. The lack of seating is ridiculous for a boarding area. I assume this is as gates 12-15 are only temporary, Hopefully when the next stage is built out towards BAMC they will build it properly with plenty of space and some basic facilities!
Gate 15 is a waste of time, they could put a basic domestic arrivals hall there, with one, maybe two belts. Simple yet basic, but avoiding the long walk and fiasco situation that immigration are causing with domestic flights.
We have a serious problem with lack of space to expand the apron area, without serious investment. Any airline looking at expanding would have to get the airport to sort out stands. If Flybe and Baby were to eventually further expand, and the possibility of XL coming back in 2008, parking space will be tight!
The road/rail/bus link is also down to the council/road/rail operators. Hopefully with the recent news regarding St Athan, that may push the road we need forward.
The road from Culverhouse down to Rhoose is constantly chocker. Something needs to be done just to cut the traffic. A road from M4-A48-Rhoose would be ideal, this would not only benifit the airport, but people of rhoose and cut traffic going through the top of Barry and Wenvoe, which in turn would cut traffic on the nightmare Culverhouse cross roundabout which is a constant bottlenexk throughout the day.
Baby...baby have no get up and go at the moment. Its as if they are scared to do anything. They are the main domestic operator at CWL, yet as someone mentioned they are cutting the GLA to x1 daily? Which is no good for business pax surely. If Flybe had any sense and did come into CWL they would only face serious competition on a few routes. E.G BFS/BHD, EDI, GLA. They could open several new french/German routes, NCL, GLA, EDI, INV etc which could mean at least one based A/c.
As for Paris, if TOM continue to mirror their low-cost bases elsewhere, im sure they will possibly go for a paris route. BOH and CVT offer PRG and AMS, but i cant see TOM operating these route as they are already covered by baby.
And to finish my rant. Hopefully the masterplan will come into effecto much before 2015, the plans they have offered for 2015 need to be sorted now, otherwise the airport will go nowhere for years and fall even further behind BRS' shadow.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
here here Caaardiff, I totally agree with you there.
Gate 15 is a waste of time, but apparently it is going to be used as a bussing gate. Maybe if there is a flight boarding from nearly all of the gates at the airport (like in the summer or during rugby flights) then this gate would be justified but other than that i can't see why it would be used, and i haven't yet seen it be used. Looking at the Masterplan it seems that when they extend the walkway out towards BAMC then gate gate 13-14 walkway will dispapear and the road will go in fron ot the stands. This will then make it not possible to put a domestic arrivals in that area unless they remove the security building. Immigration do allow domestic flights to use the new pier, providing there are no international flights using it the same time, but Special Branch will only see flights from gate 1 because of recording equipment.
Also looking at the plans, ICS building will disapear and the Staff car park.
Somone mentioned the multi-storey car park. This is planned but not anytime soon.
Gate 11A - Now this is definetly a waste of time. There is no way to enter this gate other than from the apron. No other doors other than a fire exit. What is the point of this?
Anyone seen the planes of the new extension instead of the tent? I know theres belts being placed at ground level but are they going to extend departures or will it be yet another extension of the exec lounge? I believe once they make the whole of upstairs the departure lounge, then maybe there will be a chance of better facilities.
Is anyone going to the consultative meeting tomorrow? If they are could they post some notes on here please.
Gate 15 is a waste of time, but apparently it is going to be used as a bussing gate. Maybe if there is a flight boarding from nearly all of the gates at the airport (like in the summer or during rugby flights) then this gate would be justified but other than that i can't see why it would be used, and i haven't yet seen it be used. Looking at the Masterplan it seems that when they extend the walkway out towards BAMC then gate gate 13-14 walkway will dispapear and the road will go in fron ot the stands. This will then make it not possible to put a domestic arrivals in that area unless they remove the security building. Immigration do allow domestic flights to use the new pier, providing there are no international flights using it the same time, but Special Branch will only see flights from gate 1 because of recording equipment.
Also looking at the plans, ICS building will disapear and the Staff car park.
Somone mentioned the multi-storey car park. This is planned but not anytime soon.
Gate 11A - Now this is definetly a waste of time. There is no way to enter this gate other than from the apron. No other doors other than a fire exit. What is the point of this?
Anyone seen the planes of the new extension instead of the tent? I know theres belts being placed at ground level but are they going to extend departures or will it be yet another extension of the exec lounge? I believe once they make the whole of upstairs the departure lounge, then maybe there will be a chance of better facilities.
Is anyone going to the consultative meeting tomorrow? If they are could they post some notes on here please.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this talk about NYC/DXB etc. As stated previously, DXB is well served from BHX, less than 2 hrs up the road. EWR is served from BRS, would another operator succeed?
As per the new link, see my post above, where Rhodri Morgan said on Wales Today (BBC) That with StAthans, and all that is happening there, a road link to CWL and StAthans from the M4, aka a new junction was inevitable. Some good news there. If I was very gullible I would think that 08 will be an extreme year, XL, TOM leaving BRS (coming to CWL), BE, WW. Will this all happen? I have my doubts and, can with some certinty say no.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To be honest Smile would there be room for all this to happen? And as the road is concerned, i doubt that would be there by 2008 as well, it would be completed ready for the St Athan project thats if they don't decide to widen the roads instead.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thats much better than the road there currently, where the road goes through pendoylan and the lanes where it is very damaging to a car if you have to do the journy every day.
We wouldn't see this road build finished till roughly 2010 by the time they plan it, compulsary purchase land and then build it.
I know in the masterplan sumwhere i read there is a possibility of a Miskin Parkway which will be roughly J34, new station which is on the high speed line direct from paddington with a shuttle bus service from there to the airport.
We wouldn't see this road build finished till roughly 2010 by the time they plan it, compulsary purchase land and then build it.
I know in the masterplan sumwhere i read there is a possibility of a Miskin Parkway which will be roughly J34, new station which is on the high speed line direct from paddington with a shuttle bus service from there to the airport.
