LONDON CITY - 2
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Recovering an aircraft with multiple tyre burst
You'd think they'd just bulldoze the thing over the side, like they used to on aircraft carriers! (Okay, Okay, only joking!)
My record is under 2 hours for a 737 with 2 seriously burst tyres on the Stbd side.
There are 4 major stumbling blocks to a swift recovery:
a) availability of spare parts - these often have to come by road
b) availability of a maintenance contract with an on-site organisation.
c) availability of suitable lifting gear so that an axle with a double tyre burst can be safely lifted to allow a wheel change
d) If the tyres burst during emergency braking, these can be seized on and it can take some hours before they can be changed so that the wheels can revolve - the a/c can't be moved until this happens.
A lot of the delay can also be around the arrangements for financial compensation for doing the work - many small operators don't have arrangements beyond a headset person at each port of call, despite the best efforts of airport mangements to persuade operators to have something better in place. 9 hours? Well, I'm not suprised. I'd probably say at least 6 with seized brakes and no parts on station, even on a good day.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
My record is under 2 hours for a 737 with 2 seriously burst tyres on the Stbd side.
There are 4 major stumbling blocks to a swift recovery:
a) availability of spare parts - these often have to come by road
b) availability of a maintenance contract with an on-site organisation.
c) availability of suitable lifting gear so that an axle with a double tyre burst can be safely lifted to allow a wheel change
d) If the tyres burst during emergency braking, these can be seized on and it can take some hours before they can be changed so that the wheels can revolve - the a/c can't be moved until this happens.
A lot of the delay can also be around the arrangements for financial compensation for doing the work - many small operators don't have arrangements beyond a headset person at each port of call, despite the best efforts of airport mangements to persuade operators to have something better in place. 9 hours? Well, I'm not suprised. I'd probably say at least 6 with seized brakes and no parts on station, even on a good day.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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I know it's a bit simplistic, but wouldn't it be easier if there was a standard agreement in place that if you land somewhere and don't have a specific maintance agreement to cover burst tyres and the like, the airport reserves the right to commence work in order that it can clear the runway and charge a particular tariff based on things like aircraft type and duration of blockage? Fixing the aircraft permanently can then done once paperwork is sorted.
Who pays for the lost revenue at LCY while the runway was closed?
Who pays for the lost revenue at LCY while the runway was closed?
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Who pays for the lost revenue at LCY while the runway was closed?
A most excellent point!
Airlines are quick to try and claim against an airport when it's unavailable because of adverse weather etc but when they are the ones causing the problem, it all goes very quiet.
More seriously, perhaps IATA could organise a bond similar to the ATOL system, so that there are funds available. However, that wouldn't solve the problem of not having spares available on-site. In this case, maybe 4 x 146 brake sets, wheels & tyres. AND the tools and qualified engineeers to effect the repairs. Many aircraft operators' margins are very thin and they may not be able to afford the cost of a bond. Others like that Irish carrier at Stansted aren't members (I believe) of IATA so wouldn't join in anyway.
At LGW, we have kit which we own ourselves to enable us to recover a small aircraft with a wheel problem - it's essentially flat plate mounted between 2 wheels attached to a long 'A'-frame. The affected wheel can be winched on to the plate and the whole assy towed at the same time as the rest of the a/c. Works well up to twin otter/C404 size aircraft but it's not big enough for this case.
The other side of the coin is that these events are very rare so no-one has the incentive really to do anything about it - when was the last time LCY was closed for a length of time for a tyre burst? Maybe this is the first time in 20 years?
Cheers,
TheOddOne
A most excellent point!
Airlines are quick to try and claim against an airport when it's unavailable because of adverse weather etc but when they are the ones causing the problem, it all goes very quiet.
More seriously, perhaps IATA could organise a bond similar to the ATOL system, so that there are funds available. However, that wouldn't solve the problem of not having spares available on-site. In this case, maybe 4 x 146 brake sets, wheels & tyres. AND the tools and qualified engineeers to effect the repairs. Many aircraft operators' margins are very thin and they may not be able to afford the cost of a bond. Others like that Irish carrier at Stansted aren't members (I believe) of IATA so wouldn't join in anyway.
At LGW, we have kit which we own ourselves to enable us to recover a small aircraft with a wheel problem - it's essentially flat plate mounted between 2 wheels attached to a long 'A'-frame. The affected wheel can be winched on to the plate and the whole assy towed at the same time as the rest of the a/c. Works well up to twin otter/C404 size aircraft but it's not big enough for this case.
The other side of the coin is that these events are very rare so no-one has the incentive really to do anything about it - when was the last time LCY was closed for a length of time for a tyre burst? Maybe this is the first time in 20 years?
Cheers,
TheOddOne
Thread Starter
Well done to someone at LCY for managing to keep this almost entirely out of the media. There was a bit on the BBC website, that appeared to be it. Nothing on TV or radio news, or on Teletext at all. So no overhyped stories, and nothing about Narrowly Missing a School (or my house 
)
Regarding being "prepared" for such events, these things happen from time to time, and each is so oddball and different that you could never really envisage what might be required to deal with it.
)Regarding being "prepared" for such events, these things happen from time to time, and each is so oddball and different that you could never really envisage what might be required to deal with it.
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It was only burst tyries?
So is this sort of thing classified as top news, in my opinion no.
With London City being restricted in what they have to cater for burst tyries I would think each carrier needs to hold spares of wheels at the City but if more than one tyrie goes it is a major problem as they might have to get some from somewhere else in this case with a BAE146 Southend cood be one to supply wheels at a cost.
So until the full picture comes out it was very very minor problem normally other than being at the Docklands.
So is this sort of thing classified as top news, in my opinion no.
With London City being restricted in what they have to cater for burst tyries I would think each carrier needs to hold spares of wheels at the City but if more than one tyrie goes it is a major problem as they might have to get some from somewhere else in this case with a BAE146 Southend cood be one to supply wheels at a cost.
So until the full picture comes out it was very very minor problem normally other than being at the Docklands.
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It was only burst tyries?
So is this sort of thing classified as top news, in my opinion no
With London City being restricted in what they have to cater for burst tyries I would think each carrier needs to hold spares of wheels at the City but if more than one tyrie goes it is a major problem as they might have to get some from somewhere else in this case with a BAE146 Southend cood be one to supply wheels at a cost.
The problem you have with the 146, if more than one tyre has deflated, is the reduced height under the axle to get a jack underneath. It is doubly difficult if the tyres on the other side have blown, and as The Odd One as already pointed out, the wheels were probably seized on to the axle due to the excessive heat generated by the braking. Also bare in mind the aircraft anti-skid system would have been inop if emergency brakes were used.
Have a read of The Sun's reporting of this incident at www.thesun.co.uk - pure class!! 
Thread Starter
Pathetic ! Oh, and it looks like I spoke too soon above.
Come on, you guys and gals in City Tower, let's rehearse now :
"Rubens 123, Pull sharply back up into the sky to avoid crashing into the stricken aircraft, I say again, pull sharply back up into the sky to avoid crashing into the stricken aircraft"
Originally Posted by The Sun
The next jet coming in to land had to pull sharply back up into the sky to avoid crashing into the stricken aircraft.
"Rubens 123, Pull sharply back up into the sky to avoid crashing into the stricken aircraft, I say again, pull sharply back up into the sky to avoid crashing into the stricken aircraft"
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As reported on UK Airport news.
The aircraft was trying to land on the runway.
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/
The aircraft was trying to land on the runway.
http://www.uk-airport-news.info/
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How is the airport going to accommodate all these RJ85/100s ? BA Cityflyer has announced 11 new daily flights, City Jet will have a dozen or so additional flights. Plus additional flights by Scot Airways and VLM - most of them probably not at off-peak times....
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autobrake
Just read those news reports, didn't realise the bae 146 had autobraking like the B737, isn't it by manual selection and if all else fails emergency braking.
Plus they describe witnesses saying aircraft bounced a number of times on landing and blamed this on tires bursting. Didn't the tires burst because of emergency brake usage not because of a hard landing. Isn't it aircraft lands manual brakes failed and emergency brakes used on roll out. They make out the whole thing began on touchdown and then blame autobrake failure.
Which is it?
Plus they describe witnesses saying aircraft bounced a number of times on landing and blamed this on tires bursting. Didn't the tires burst because of emergency brake usage not because of a hard landing. Isn't it aircraft lands manual brakes failed and emergency brakes used on roll out. They make out the whole thing began on touchdown and then blame autobrake failure.
Which is it?
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Virgin Blue
I agree with you - already the airport is stretched to capacity at peak times. Once the doors are closed it can take up to 45 minutes to get airborne and if an aircraft is on the ground for more than the turnaround time airfield ops are on the blower. They've even asked us to position an aircraft out to another airport and position it back again when it was only going to be on the ground for 3 hours!
I agree with you - already the airport is stretched to capacity at peak times. Once the doors are closed it can take up to 45 minutes to get airborne and if an aircraft is on the ground for more than the turnaround time airfield ops are on the blower. They've even asked us to position an aircraft out to another airport and position it back again when it was only going to be on the ground for 3 hours!
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The 146/RJ does not have auto brakes they must be applied manually. In normal braking on either hydraulic system (there are 2 ) you have anti skid. If the brakes don't work on either system you are left with emergency brakes which have no anti skid protection ( and if memory serves me right) the brakes are applied by using the parking brake handle so its very easy to lock the wheels, which is what appears to have happened here.
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RJ has two braking systems, yellow and green.
Default system is yellow, if they dont work, switch to green.
The emergency yellow system is only used if both fail, and is used with the normal foot brakes.
If emergency yellow is used:
No anti-skid available on EMERG YEL. Exercise extreme caution in braking. Use minimum braking consistent with runway length available
Default system is yellow, if they dont work, switch to green.
The emergency yellow system is only used if both fail, and is used with the normal foot brakes.
If emergency yellow is used:
No anti-skid available on EMERG YEL. Exercise extreme caution in braking. Use minimum braking consistent with runway length available
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Picture Perfect:
Ref aircraft 'bouncing a number of times'. It didn't. Perhaps it made 2 touchdowns, but that's not uncommon on rwy 10- I understand that the 146s suffer particularly in a tailwind, which there was on short finals, but not at the surface, that day.
Certainly the touchdown didn't look uncomfortable enough to burst tyres. However, not being a 146-jock, I could be wrong!
CC
Ref aircraft 'bouncing a number of times'. It didn't. Perhaps it made 2 touchdowns, but that's not uncommon on rwy 10- I understand that the 146s suffer particularly in a tailwind, which there was on short finals, but not at the surface, that day.
Certainly the touchdown didn't look uncomfortable enough to burst tyres. However, not being a 146-jock, I could be wrong!
CC
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Yes as I said this what the news papers had, the passengers were talking about bouncing on landing which is common in the city and bursting the tires then referring to auto brake failure causing them to burst.???
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Is it common on the 146 for two independent systems to fail and having to revert to emergency or are they completely redundant? Short enough runway to be switching between systems with water approaching or would it be the case if time or distance available doesn't allow go to emergency straight after first failure to guarantee a sure stop?
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I see rthe Challenger 605 has been trialed at LCY this week with further tests over the next couple of days. Assuming everything goes to plan & it does gain LCY certification, it wouldn't be able to operate transaltlantic off LCY's runway?
Also, with the new Airport owners, will there still be a LCY funday this year?
FC
Also, with the new Airport owners, will there still be a LCY funday this year?
FC