CORK - 4
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Cat 3 at Cork, don't hold your breath!
Tom , I doubt if the CAA have even thought about CAT3 never mind discussed it.
In any event it's a matter for the Shannon based IAA to make a decision on it as they control navigational equipment.
Why don't Aerlingus and Ryanair start talking about it instead of leaving it to PPrune subscribers.
The reality is that Cork Management are immobilised due to the continued indecision about the debt.
Of course Aer Arann and BMI Baby pilots continue to live in CAT1 land at least as far as Cork is concerned.. They've been lucky with the exceptionaly dry summer this year but by the law of averages they can look forward to many diversions in the months ahead.
In any event it's a matter for the Shannon based IAA to make a decision on it as they control navigational equipment.
Why don't Aerlingus and Ryanair start talking about it instead of leaving it to PPrune subscribers.
The reality is that Cork Management are immobilised due to the continued indecision about the debt.
Of course Aer Arann and BMI Baby pilots continue to live in CAT1 land at least as far as Cork is concerned.. They've been lucky with the exceptionaly dry summer this year but by the law of averages they can look forward to many diversions in the months ahead.
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Cork Cat III
Just a small correction Ryan 2000. The IAA's H.Q is in Hawkins St. Dublin 2. They also have nothing to do with the decision to install Cat III unless in a purely advisory capacity. The decision is made by the airport authority. The IAA then monitor and maintain the equipment.
While no doubt there are quite a lot of diversions from Cork i genuinely don't think in terms of the amount of diversions that the cost could be justified. I would prefer to see the money being invested in increasing the ramp capacity, even if only to facilitate executive jets. This is an area that has expanded hugely in Shannon and it would be good to see Cork getting a share of this lucrative pie.
While no doubt there are quite a lot of diversions from Cork i genuinely don't think in terms of the amount of diversions that the cost could be justified. I would prefer to see the money being invested in increasing the ramp capacity, even if only to facilitate executive jets. This is an area that has expanded hugely in Shannon and it would be good to see Cork getting a share of this lucrative pie.
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CAT 3
Point taken. However in the past management have frequently pointed the finger at the IAA in relation to CAT 3 in the same way as they point to Servisair and Aerlingus when passengers complain about walking to remote stands.
Do the IAA not get the revenue from ILS approaches and pay for its maintenance? Anyway it's not going to happen unless Ryanair and Aerlingus make a big issue of it but LCC's are finding diversions increasingly cumbersome and unacceptable.
Executive jets are restricted from parking at Cork due to the fact that the stands there are marked out for medium sized aircraft. If 2 Learjets arrive they are each given a 737 type stand.
These are needed by commercial aircraft so most of the biz jet opertors are told to get lost! It's amazing that an airport that's in serious debt can afford to turn down so much business. Whatever happened to the proposed development at the 40 acres? Why are Southair not allowed develop a General Aviation facility?
Whether it's the IAA or Cork's OCC that are responsible for this I'm not sure but Kerry and Shannon are the main benefactors.
Do the IAA not get the revenue from ILS approaches and pay for its maintenance? Anyway it's not going to happen unless Ryanair and Aerlingus make a big issue of it but LCC's are finding diversions increasingly cumbersome and unacceptable.
Executive jets are restricted from parking at Cork due to the fact that the stands there are marked out for medium sized aircraft. If 2 Learjets arrive they are each given a 737 type stand.
These are needed by commercial aircraft so most of the biz jet opertors are told to get lost! It's amazing that an airport that's in serious debt can afford to turn down so much business. Whatever happened to the proposed development at the 40 acres? Why are Southair not allowed develop a General Aviation facility?
Whether it's the IAA or Cork's OCC that are responsible for this I'm not sure but Kerry and Shannon are the main benefactors.
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Cork has fallen a good bit since maybe 2003/04 when new routes were being introduced,do the management have a clue? or are they holding for an announcement on the debt issue,calamity cullen commented on the debt issue got ''sidetracked'' due to the unveiling of a new terminal at dublin,what a disgrace,that is a few years down the line while cork (who actually have a new terminal) suffers from his favouritism,he really hasn't a clue.
ps. i dont think the CAA even know what CAT3 ILS is.
also work started recently on the new shannon tunnel.
ps. i dont think the CAA even know what CAT3 ILS is.
also work started recently on the new shannon tunnel.
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Just in reply to the question on Cat III. The airport are responsible for the maintenance of the generators the lighting systems etc. The IAA in turn monitor the signals at both the Controllers and Engineering positions. The fee for Cat III is taken through landing charges and terminal charges as opposed to enroute charges which are given directly to the IAA. The airport authority then reimburses the IAA for providing the service. Hope that clarifies things a little bit.
The reason i mentioned the exec. traffic is that in relation to the rest of the ramp exec aircraft take up very little room and they can also be facilitated on areas with a lower PCN no. which in turn are cheaper to build. For example in Shannon two remote stands (21 and 22) were basically created out of nothing and are now constantly in use with quick turnaround refueling exec. jets.
Just in relation to the new Shannon tunnel don't worry it's not the underground link-up to Shannon's new terminal it is the tunnel that has commenced linking the Limerick by-pass and the dual carriageway to the airport and onwards to Galway etc!
The reason i mentioned the exec. traffic is that in relation to the rest of the ramp exec aircraft take up very little room and they can also be facilitated on areas with a lower PCN no. which in turn are cheaper to build. For example in Shannon two remote stands (21 and 22) were basically created out of nothing and are now constantly in use with quick turnaround refueling exec. jets.
Just in relation to the new Shannon tunnel don't worry it's not the underground link-up to Shannon's new terminal it is the tunnel that has commenced linking the Limerick by-pass and the dual carriageway to the airport and onwards to Galway etc!
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More ramp for bizjets at Cork? Sounds good to me - bring it on! I wonder would it ever be possible to work out a rough sum lost in potential income from overnight parking by some bizjets at Cork over the last few years? Might there have been enough for a covered walkway and an airbridge or two?
At the same time let us also revisit calls for a parallel taxiway to runway 17/35 at Cork. After the Futura landed last night ahead of our FR907 no doubt there were a few precious moments lost whilst the FUA backtracked the runway and whilst not knowing for sure if it was then that the RVR dropped back down from 300 metres to 250 metres which triggered our flight's go around with all it's added costs to Ryanair bourne in the end by long suffering Cork Airport passengers. So, what are the chances in the current market conditions of this part of the debate being reintroduced as a hot topic at board level at the HQ of the Dublin Airport Authority and exactly how much say does the Cork board actually have or are they sterile and is their status only that of a puppet regime for their Dublin Airport masters?
Of course, you cant really say current market conditions either, can you? That implies a competitive level playing field which there is certainly not as the more favoured status of both Dublin and Shannon is plainly obvious especially so considering the high number of summer flights to North America that both these airports enjoy with Cork having nil. Now, there is to be a new pier, a new terminal and a new runway for Dublin Airport along with a supporting metro from Swords to the city centre and a convenient tunnel in the Limerick area which just so happens will be sweetly positioned for Shannon to attract more passengers from the Munster and North Cork hinterlands.
The Government, the Civil Service and the DAA seem to allow Cork so little competitive edge in airports development to such an extent that, for example, even something really simple like intermediate RVR readings seem not to be possible at Cork even though they were so in the past.
At the same time let us also revisit calls for a parallel taxiway to runway 17/35 at Cork. After the Futura landed last night ahead of our FR907 no doubt there were a few precious moments lost whilst the FUA backtracked the runway and whilst not knowing for sure if it was then that the RVR dropped back down from 300 metres to 250 metres which triggered our flight's go around with all it's added costs to Ryanair bourne in the end by long suffering Cork Airport passengers. So, what are the chances in the current market conditions of this part of the debate being reintroduced as a hot topic at board level at the HQ of the Dublin Airport Authority and exactly how much say does the Cork board actually have or are they sterile and is their status only that of a puppet regime for their Dublin Airport masters?
Of course, you cant really say current market conditions either, can you? That implies a competitive level playing field which there is certainly not as the more favoured status of both Dublin and Shannon is plainly obvious especially so considering the high number of summer flights to North America that both these airports enjoy with Cork having nil. Now, there is to be a new pier, a new terminal and a new runway for Dublin Airport along with a supporting metro from Swords to the city centre and a convenient tunnel in the Limerick area which just so happens will be sweetly positioned for Shannon to attract more passengers from the Munster and North Cork hinterlands.
The Government, the Civil Service and the DAA seem to allow Cork so little competitive edge in airports development to such an extent that, for example, even something really simple like intermediate RVR readings seem not to be possible at Cork even though they were so in the past.
Last edited by Tom the Tenor; 30th Oct 2006 at 20:02.
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Central Wings
Centralwings begin operations at Cork tomorrow with 9.20 from Wroclow. The plane then flies to Krakow and back before returning to Wroclow in the evening. Lets hope these routes are successful and there is an increase from the current two weekly
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RVR readings
TOT
with regard to intermediate RVR readings at 25 meter intervals, the majority of european airports if not all of them require a RVR value rounded up to nearest 50 or 100. For example Rwy 17 at Cork for a Cat 1 approach you need a value of 650meters touchdown to commence an approach. For a Cat2 approach on the same runway you need 300meters.
Having a reading at-75 wont make any difference at all.
with regard to intermediate RVR readings at 25 meter intervals, the majority of european airports if not all of them require a RVR value rounded up to nearest 50 or 100. For example Rwy 17 at Cork for a Cat 1 approach you need a value of 650meters touchdown to commence an approach. For a Cat2 approach on the same runway you need 300meters.
Having a reading at-75 wont make any difference at all.
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New route to Manchester ex ORK announced this morning and increased frequency to LHR, Faro and Birmingham.
Not sure what frequencies all of those are but it's some good news at last.
Not sure what frequencies all of those are but it's some good news at last.
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With regards to the runway...
As I understand it, CAT III is impossible unless 17/35 is flattened. That's a pretty substantial engineering job and would require a period of runway closure (although I remember someone having the idea of building a new runway parallel to 17/35 and turning 17/35 into a taxiway). 07/25 isn't long enough to be used at present, so the first step would need to be to bring 07/25 up to the 2,000m mark.
What I'm really getting at here is that the upgrade of runways, taxiways and nav aids is an integrated project and not just a case of creating one of the improvements (another example is that a runway extension on 17/35 would be best done at the same time as the provision of a taxiway).
Unfortunately, such a plan would become very expensive and the government wouldn't be paying for it in a hurry.
As I understand it, CAT III is impossible unless 17/35 is flattened. That's a pretty substantial engineering job and would require a period of runway closure (although I remember someone having the idea of building a new runway parallel to 17/35 and turning 17/35 into a taxiway). 07/25 isn't long enough to be used at present, so the first step would need to be to bring 07/25 up to the 2,000m mark.
What I'm really getting at here is that the upgrade of runways, taxiways and nav aids is an integrated project and not just a case of creating one of the improvements (another example is that a runway extension on 17/35 would be best done at the same time as the provision of a taxiway).
Unfortunately, such a plan would become very expensive and the government wouldn't be paying for it in a hurry.
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Manchester
I'm not impressed by Aer Lingus' attempts to thwart BMI Baby's presence in Cork.
Sure, you might think it's great to have Aer Lingus now flying from Cork to Manchester, but I would have considered this a looooong term priority of EI
In the short term it would have been more preferable that they'd introduce a new route to the likes of Glasgow, Frankfurt, Milan, Valencia...
We're still waiting
Sure, you might think it's great to have Aer Lingus now flying from Cork to Manchester, but I would have considered this a looooong term priority of EI
In the short term it would have been more preferable that they'd introduce a new route to the likes of Glasgow, Frankfurt, Milan, Valencia...
We're still waiting
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At first glance this EI expansion looks pretty significant but in reality its just 2 new routes as previously mentioned. Sure theyre increasing a lot of route frequencies but is this capacity just being pulled from elsewhere? Do they have a new plane coming in next summer?
I wonder if FR might begin to feel that EI are getting too strong in ORK and throw another plane down there and start a few shorter rotations like, PIK, MAN & a GRO or something?
I wonder if FR might begin to feel that EI are getting too strong in ORK and throw another plane down there and start a few shorter rotations like, PIK, MAN & a GRO or something?
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At first glance this EI expansion looks pretty significant but in reality its just 2 new routes as previously mentioned. Sure theyre increasing a lot of route frequencies but is this capacity just being pulled from elsewhere? Do they have a new plane coming in next summer?
Currently, Malaga is showing at 2 rotations a week fewer than last summer and none of the flights to the Canaries are bookable. I haven't done any analysis of aircraft utilisation, so I don't know if this is likely to change.
According to MarkD's earlier post, Aer Lingus have two A320s arriving in June. Clearly one is going to Dublin.
One possibility I have mentioned before is that EI could operate more of the Heathrow flights as Ws out of Dublin, effectively freeing up 1/2 an aircraft for extra services out of Cork. It doesn't seem to be happening though.
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Aer Lingus
Cork-Manchester makes no sense, considering that they could have had a monopoly on Cork-Glasgow. This is just one more example of Aer Lingus's efforts to drive out other airlines and to make Cork even more dependent on them. First there was Birmingham, then Prague and now Manchester. What next?
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en2r
I dont think EI's management have a serious plan to drive all airlines out of Cork. If they didnt think Manchester would make money, they wouldnt operate the route! If Glasgow had potential and could make money, they would operate it! Who knows, maybe its in the pipeline!
I dont think EI's management have a serious plan to drive all airlines out of Cork. If they didnt think Manchester would make money, they wouldnt operate the route! If Glasgow had potential and could make money, they would operate it! Who knows, maybe its in the pipeline!
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I just looked at the Aer Lingus Cork-Manchester flight there.
It appears to be operating with a Dublin-based aircraft on a W-pattern
And the days it doesn't operate are Monday and Friday, which I would have thought were the two busiest days of the week, but what do I know...
The fact it's a Dublin-based aircraft may go some way to explaining the apparently odd choice of Manchester as a destination.
It appears to be operating with a Dublin-based aircraft on a W-pattern
And the days it doesn't operate are Monday and Friday, which I would have thought were the two busiest days of the week, but what do I know...
The fact it's a Dublin-based aircraft may go some way to explaining the apparently odd choice of Manchester as a destination.
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Ryanair's Cork base
I think many would pose the same question Cesare.
Ryanair are not happy to pay the high charges imposed by Cork airport. Ryanair only based an aircraft at Cork when their number one priority became chasing Easyjet out of Ireland.
Meanwhile, 120km up the road at Shannon, Ryanair pay next to nothing in charges. The region doesn't have the greatest population catch, and even depends a lot on Cork citizens using Shannon airport. Ryanair would hestitate to introduce routes from Cork in fear of damaging their Shannon yields.
This might explain why Ryanair never took advantage of the Cork Airport route support scheme which offered generous incentives over 5 years to airlines starting new routes to NEW destinations. Ryanair could have used their based aircraft on new destinations from Cork like Frankfurt Hahn, Milan Bergamo, Valencia, Stockholm, Venice Treviso, Pisa, Brussels, Weeze, Murcia (the list goes on) and enjoyed all the benefits of the route support scheme. But instead they used their aircraft to damage competitors on the Gatwick and Dublin routes
Ryanair are not happy to pay the high charges imposed by Cork airport. Ryanair only based an aircraft at Cork when their number one priority became chasing Easyjet out of Ireland.
Meanwhile, 120km up the road at Shannon, Ryanair pay next to nothing in charges. The region doesn't have the greatest population catch, and even depends a lot on Cork citizens using Shannon airport. Ryanair would hestitate to introduce routes from Cork in fear of damaging their Shannon yields.
This might explain why Ryanair never took advantage of the Cork Airport route support scheme which offered generous incentives over 5 years to airlines starting new routes to NEW destinations. Ryanair could have used their based aircraft on new destinations from Cork like Frankfurt Hahn, Milan Bergamo, Valencia, Stockholm, Venice Treviso, Pisa, Brussels, Weeze, Murcia (the list goes on) and enjoyed all the benefits of the route support scheme. But instead they used their aircraft to damage competitors on the Gatwick and Dublin routes