ISLE OF MAN
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The '21 Break' - jetstream, 146, ATP, whatever, in ye goode olde days!
ILS26 to Circling Minima, heading around 280 corrected for wind, VS around 300fpm down to cross the coast at around 600' and roll out fully stabilised at 300'. Piece of cake and SOP for Manx crews on a 'blustery day'.
ILS26 to Circling Minima, heading around 280 corrected for wind, VS around 300fpm down to cross the coast at around 600' and roll out fully stabilised at 300'. Piece of cake and SOP for Manx crews on a 'blustery day'.
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Indeed it was.
We used to start practising around September so would be fully comfortable when the October gales started. Good fun at night, with heavy rain, an 800ft cloudbase and blowing 210/45G60. Good training the makes the rest of the world seem a bit tame.
Of course because of Open Skies the expertise is now spread to the winds.
We used to start practising around September so would be fully comfortable when the October gales started. Good fun at night, with heavy rain, an 800ft cloudbase and blowing 210/45G60. Good training the makes the rest of the world seem a bit tame.
Of course because of Open Skies the expertise is now spread to the winds.
Last edited by RVF750; 29th Nov 2015 at 18:42.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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ATRs don't like Ronaldsway
I know it is wild out there but it is surely significant that the Stobart Air/Air Lingus Regional ATR flights so far today have been cancelled. There's a BHX flight just landed, and I'm guessing that is either a Dash8 or an E jet. Easyjet's (bigger) planes have operated as has the Eastern/BA Saab. So what is the issue with these ATRs? It used to be that Aer Arran flights got cancelled when the wind was across the runway while the Dash8s soldiered on.
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I know it is wild out there but it is surely significant that the Stobart Air/Air Lingus Regional ATR flights so far today have been cancelled. There's a BHX flight just landed, and I'm guessing that is either a Dash8 or an E jet. Easyjet's (bigger) planes have operated as has the Eastern/BA Saab. So what is the issue with these ATRs? It used to be that Aer Arran flights got cancelled when the wind was across the runway while the Dash8s soldiered on.
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I can accept that for the cancelled DUB flight, but the two overnight ATRs should have departed for LPL and MAN just after 7am starting their daily schedule. The Eastern/BA Saab departed around 7.15 and landed back around 10am. And I see from FR24 the BHX which landed at 1315 is a Dash8.
I'm just trying to reconcile the past history of Dash8's flying when ATR's stay on the ground with the cross wind limits quoted earlier. Perhaps the company limits for the ATRs are lower?
I'm just trying to reconcile the past history of Dash8's flying when ATR's stay on the ground with the cross wind limits quoted earlier. Perhaps the company limits for the ATRs are lower?
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Anyone who actually travels would know this from experience
I travel. A lot.
Yet I know I am not qualified to answer the question I posed.
The Dash8 has come in for a lot of criticism in the past; yet it is happily plodding back and forth when the ATR stays on the ground. It's not it seems due to crosswind limits as suggested earlier in this thread. I was kind of hoping for some informed comment.....
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On a Dry Runway, cross wind limits are:
ATR: 35 kts
Q400: 32 kts
On a wet runway:
ATR: 28 kts
Q400: 32 kts
So ATR wins on dry, Q400 wins on wet, overall, they're about the same.
Why did the dash operate today? Hard to tell, I can only assume the runway was wet or there were other limiting factors to consider.
ATR: 35 kts
Q400: 32 kts
On a wet runway:
ATR: 28 kts
Q400: 32 kts
So ATR wins on dry, Q400 wins on wet, overall, they're about the same.
Why did the dash operate today? Hard to tell, I can only assume the runway was wet or there were other limiting factors to consider.
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Read more: EasyJet: Our punctuality is poor - Isle of Man Today
EasyJet’s Gatwick service from Ronaldsway does suffer from poor punctuality.
A representative from the airline admitted its shortcoming at a meeting with transport watchdogs TravelWatch.
Jenny Groves, EasyJet’s UK route manager, said that the service between Gatwick and the island needed to be better and said that action was being taken to ‘improve punctual performance’.
She told the meeting, which was held last week in Douglas, that the airline was examining the possibility of ‘overnighting’ a plane at Ronaldsway, so it could offer an early service.
At present, a plane has to arrive from Gatwick before setting off again. It means the earliest a flight leaves the island for the London airport is 9.50am.
She added that the company was also reviewing the reduction in Gatwick midweek services and the absence of Saturday services during the summer.
The meeting was told that the reason EasyJet dropped the island during those times was when it ‘needed more aircraft for more lucrative routes in the summer peak’.
Ms Groves also revealed that the airline was looking at introducing a Ronaldsway to Belfast service, giving CityWing competition on that route.
Currently, EasyJet also flies to Liverpool and Bristol from the island.
Travelwatch’s chairman, Brendan O’Friel said: ‘This was a valuable bringing together of a major airline with passengers.
‘We are sure EasyJet has gained from listening to passenger concerns.
‘In our view, EasyJet has plenty to improve.’
He listed the areas as: punctuality to Gatwick, better information about time to allow for connecting flights, increased services to Gatwick and ‘more action to convince passengers of EasyJet’s commitment to the special needs of the island’.
Terry Liddiard, TravelWatch’s spokesman on air services, said EasyJet should recognise its ‘responsibilities to the community in maintaining a “lifeline” service’.
When Flybe flew to Gatwick, a plane ‘overnighted’ in the island. But Flybe dropped the route last year, meaning that the passengers wishing to go to London had to use EasyJet to Gatwick or British Airways to London City.
Passengers soon got more choice when Flybe began flights between Stansted and the island in March. However, it has announced it will also drop those next year.
TravelWatch expressed disappointment about that decision and feared there would be a substantial shortage of seats to the London area.
However, it was pleased that BA was planning to use bigger aircraft on its London City flights and cut fares.
EasyJet’s Gatwick service from Ronaldsway does suffer from poor punctuality.
A representative from the airline admitted its shortcoming at a meeting with transport watchdogs TravelWatch.
Jenny Groves, EasyJet’s UK route manager, said that the service between Gatwick and the island needed to be better and said that action was being taken to ‘improve punctual performance’.
She told the meeting, which was held last week in Douglas, that the airline was examining the possibility of ‘overnighting’ a plane at Ronaldsway, so it could offer an early service.
At present, a plane has to arrive from Gatwick before setting off again. It means the earliest a flight leaves the island for the London airport is 9.50am.
She added that the company was also reviewing the reduction in Gatwick midweek services and the absence of Saturday services during the summer.
The meeting was told that the reason EasyJet dropped the island during those times was when it ‘needed more aircraft for more lucrative routes in the summer peak’.
Ms Groves also revealed that the airline was looking at introducing a Ronaldsway to Belfast service, giving CityWing competition on that route.
Currently, EasyJet also flies to Liverpool and Bristol from the island.
Travelwatch’s chairman, Brendan O’Friel said: ‘This was a valuable bringing together of a major airline with passengers.
‘We are sure EasyJet has gained from listening to passenger concerns.
‘In our view, EasyJet has plenty to improve.’
He listed the areas as: punctuality to Gatwick, better information about time to allow for connecting flights, increased services to Gatwick and ‘more action to convince passengers of EasyJet’s commitment to the special needs of the island’.
Terry Liddiard, TravelWatch’s spokesman on air services, said EasyJet should recognise its ‘responsibilities to the community in maintaining a “lifeline” service’.
When Flybe flew to Gatwick, a plane ‘overnighted’ in the island. But Flybe dropped the route last year, meaning that the passengers wishing to go to London had to use EasyJet to Gatwick or British Airways to London City.
Passengers soon got more choice when Flybe began flights between Stansted and the island in March. However, it has announced it will also drop those next year.
TravelWatch expressed disappointment about that decision and feared there would be a substantial shortage of seats to the London area.
However, it was pleased that BA was planning to use bigger aircraft on its London City flights and cut fares.
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Interesting post! I was at that meeting, and there are several points in this article which were certainly not mentioned in the public phase of the meeting:-
1. There was no mention of any possible IOM-Belfast service
2. A suggestion from the floor about night-stopping was dismissed by Ms Groves as being expensive and not part of their business model
3. The issues of punctuality was purely in relation to the IOM-LGW 855/856 rotation which was dismal during the summer. There is no issue with LPL and BRS, as a rule.
4. Ms Groves also dismissed the idea that the poor Summer schedule on IOM-LGW could be revised, although she did suggest some restoration when the balance of the schedule (Sept/Oct) is released next week.
5. As Mr O'Friel remarked, there was a lot of discussion, comment and feedback on easyJet's 'commitment' to the IOM routes, and despite Ms Groves stating 'we are fully committed' on several occasions, I think most people were unconvinced.
It could be that the journo who wrote this did ask some questions privately, but my recollection is as above!
1. There was no mention of any possible IOM-Belfast service
2. A suggestion from the floor about night-stopping was dismissed by Ms Groves as being expensive and not part of their business model
3. The issues of punctuality was purely in relation to the IOM-LGW 855/856 rotation which was dismal during the summer. There is no issue with LPL and BRS, as a rule.
4. Ms Groves also dismissed the idea that the poor Summer schedule on IOM-LGW could be revised, although she did suggest some restoration when the balance of the schedule (Sept/Oct) is released next week.
5. As Mr O'Friel remarked, there was a lot of discussion, comment and feedback on easyJet's 'commitment' to the IOM routes, and despite Ms Groves stating 'we are fully committed' on several occasions, I think most people were unconvinced.
It could be that the journo who wrote this did ask some questions privately, but my recollection is as above!
Join Date: Dec 2005
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It's another windy day and it looks like all FlyBe ATR movements have been cancelled. The Saab is off to LCY; Easyjet are operating. And there's a FlyBe flight recently arrived and about to depart for Manchester which will be a Dash8 or E jet.
RVF750 said earlier in this thread that the ATR was the wrong aircraft for the IoM. He also explained how the Manx crews developed a procedure to cope with these south westerlies.
One wonders why the Stobart boys haven't been out practising??
(I first encountered the"21 Break" sat in the back of a Shed. Somewhat alarming to be drifting sideways over the coast until I worked out what was going on. Happy days!).
RVF750 said earlier in this thread that the ATR was the wrong aircraft for the IoM. He also explained how the Manx crews developed a procedure to cope with these south westerlies.
One wonders why the Stobart boys haven't been out practising??
(I first encountered the"21 Break" sat in the back of a Shed. Somewhat alarming to be drifting sideways over the coast until I worked out what was going on. Happy days!).
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BACF have released there extra LCY flights through until the end of September. With the following rotations added:
BA3272 LCY 07:00 IOM 08:05 E90 6 (23JUN-10SEP)
BA3272 LCY 11:10 IOM 12:15 E70 234 (03MAY-29SEP)
BA3284 LCY 13:10 IOM 14:20 S20 7 (08MAY-25SEP)
BA3273 IOM 08:45 LCY 09:50 E90 6 (23JUN-10SEP)
BA3283 IOM 11:30 LCY 12:40 S20 7 (08MAY-25SEP)
BA3273 IOM 12:45 LCY 13:50 E70 234 (03MAY-29SEP)
BA3272 LCY 07:00 IOM 08:05 E90 6 (23JUN-10SEP)
BA3272 LCY 11:10 IOM 12:15 E70 234 (03MAY-29SEP)
BA3284 LCY 13:10 IOM 14:20 S20 7 (08MAY-25SEP)
BA3273 IOM 08:45 LCY 09:50 E90 6 (23JUN-10SEP)
BA3283 IOM 11:30 LCY 12:40 S20 7 (08MAY-25SEP)
BA3273 IOM 12:45 LCY 13:50 E70 234 (03MAY-29SEP)
Paxing All Over The World
Thread Starter
Terry Liddiard, TravelWatch’s spokesman on air services, said EasyJet should recognise its ‘responsibilities to the community in maintaining a “lifeline” service’.
EZY demonstrated this by removing aircraft to work on more profitable routes during the summer.
This meeting sounds like a PR event to keep the punters at bay.
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I do not know Mr Liddiard but I suggest he has not noticed that purely commercial carriers don't have responsibilities to any other than their shareholders.
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Manx Airlines made money on the London Heathrow route which cross subsidised most of the others a lot of the time. MAN held its own, as did Liverpool when it wasn't being competed on. The others never made money....
So yes, Manx Airlines provided a great service to the community, including paying the wages of a fair few of them!
A sad loss but now long gone. If Terry made the call, many of us would be back in a flash!
It would help if the current boss at Flybe didn't hate the island so much...
Those of us who commute constantly worry about getting off the rock. The ATR is a disaster for all of us!
Nothing against the Stobart crews, they try their best on poor pay and conditions, but the aircraft is grossly underpowered, narrow of undercarriage, prone to tipping on its a**e and can't land or take off with any tailwind at all.
Not a fan, or can't you guess... Given a choice I'd take the Boat....
So yes, Manx Airlines provided a great service to the community, including paying the wages of a fair few of them!
A sad loss but now long gone. If Terry made the call, many of us would be back in a flash!
It would help if the current boss at Flybe didn't hate the island so much...
Those of us who commute constantly worry about getting off the rock. The ATR is a disaster for all of us!
Nothing against the Stobart crews, they try their best on poor pay and conditions, but the aircraft is grossly underpowered, narrow of undercarriage, prone to tipping on its a**e and can't land or take off with any tailwind at all.
Not a fan, or can't you guess... Given a choice I'd take the Boat....
Co-incidentally this appeared on the Flight website today
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...limits-419872/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...limits-419872/
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the winds have been gusting 55kts today on the island, and the problem stobart face is that if they dispatch the aircraft (they could go off 21) they may not be able to get back on the island disrupting tomorrow as well as today as you then have aircraft and out of hours crew out of place.
The company has to take a balanced view and decide not only if it's wise to operate but also if it's good from an operational integrity point of view …
The ATRs operate perfectly well around the canaries which suffer just as much wind as the IOM, if not worse, the aircraft is no better or worse than the Dash 8 or the Saab ...
The company has to take a balanced view and decide not only if it's wise to operate but also if it's good from an operational integrity point of view …
The ATRs operate perfectly well around the canaries which suffer just as much wind as the IOM, if not worse, the aircraft is no better or worse than the Dash 8 or the Saab ...