CARDIFF - 2
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Get real guys
Eastern are subsidsed by the Welsh Assembly.
They dont have to sell the route to make money to BRU.
Their attempts to fill the plane at huge expense have obviously fallen foul of someone.
After all, the freeby champagne and everthing else is suppose to remain a secret.!!
Eastern are subsidsed by the Welsh Assembly.
They dont have to sell the route to make money to BRU.
Their attempts to fill the plane at huge expense have obviously fallen foul of someone.
After all, the freeby champagne and everthing else is suppose to remain a secret.!!
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Air Wales were actually making a good return on Brussels (2nd time around) as they were on Newcastle which was going to increase to3x daily. Unfortunately other factors saw the end of scheduled ops.
A great shame
A great shame
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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BA did not make enough money
Re Air Wales - Aeroconejo is quite correct; it was no where near as simple as it may have appeared. As I mentioned, 6G were making some useful progress on developing that route, but there are always other reasons than just the financial performance of an individual route when an airline decides to cease operations....
As for your comments, seewl, please be aware that in that post you have accused an airline and the Assembly of something illegal. I am sure you meant that the Assembly's Route Development Fund was used, correctly, to reduce certain charges on the CWL-BRU route.... I am sure you would wish to clarify your post, otherwise I would suggest you email Danny or one of the mods with the evidence to back up your statement.
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BA and BRU
Twinaisle is correct, however there where other polictics for cancelling. Dont forget who the actual operator of the route was not BA but a franchise then owned by BMI. The BRU was one of several routes cancelled strange that a Lowcost took most of the routes on!!!!!
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At the point that BA withdrew from Cardiff, there was no longer any link between CitiExpress (who were the franchise operators) and BMI.
CitiExpress was a wholely owned BA subsiduary, formed after the acquisition of BRAL / Manx by BA.
The announcement of the arrival of bmiBaby, and routes to be served from CWL preceded the withdrawal of BA from CWL, so you can't link the two actions, and suggest that it was part of a plan by BMI.
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It was many months after British Regional withdrew that BMI Baby announced it intended to base themselves at Cardiff.
I do remember being told that BA only needed about 6 people on the Brussels flight to make it viable, however times have very much changed since then as this was before the advent of Bristol taking off in the way in which it has, also companies are less prepared and able to pay the larger sums of money that Eastern are charging when they could send their workers from Bristol after an hours drive for a considerably lower fare.
I thought I had written a post about Eastern and my lack of faith in such a company succeeding from Cardiff, but it was probably just myself in a conversation with Aeroconejo or Twin Aisle and other ex Air Wales types.
Brussels is such a short flight that a champagne service is not needed but lower fares are.
I do remember being told that BA only needed about 6 people on the Brussels flight to make it viable, however times have very much changed since then as this was before the advent of Bristol taking off in the way in which it has, also companies are less prepared and able to pay the larger sums of money that Eastern are charging when they could send their workers from Bristol after an hours drive for a considerably lower fare.
I thought I had written a post about Eastern and my lack of faith in such a company succeeding from Cardiff, but it was probably just myself in a conversation with Aeroconejo or Twin Aisle and other ex Air Wales types.
Brussels is such a short flight that a champagne service is not needed but lower fares are.
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Am I alone in wondering why CWL aren't pushing BMI Regional to establish a complementary opperation to Baby. There's plenty of scope for business routes routes such as Brussels and Paris. Plus they could tap into the RDF on Frankfurt, Munich, Milan etc
MB
MB
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MonkeyB
The rumour mill has it that Baby intend setting up more business type routes, Paris should be restarting soon and lets hope more interesting routes such as Munich follow. With a fourth aircraft there should be scope
The rumour mill has it that Baby intend setting up more business type routes, Paris should be restarting soon and lets hope more interesting routes such as Munich follow. With a fourth aircraft there should be scope
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flower
Bearing in mind that they didn't run for very long, loads were pretty encouraging on both Munich and Bergarmo during Baby's first summer at Cardiff - although I don't know what the yeilds were like! Smaller jets with timings to suit business as well as leisure passengers may be a better fit.
Bearing in mind that they didn't run for very long, loads were pretty encouraging on both Munich and Bergarmo during Baby's first summer at Cardiff - although I don't know what the yeilds were like! Smaller jets with timings to suit business as well as leisure passengers may be a better fit.
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The rumour mill has it that Baby intend setting up more business type routes, Paris should be restarting soon and lets hope more interesting routes such as Munich follow. With a fourth aircraft there should be scope
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Guys - can I suggest that those of you who think that baby will restart MUC or start any other German route out of just about anywhere do a quick search on bmi's ownership structure??
I've said this before - but clearly I need to say it again. CWL-CDG and CWL-BRU are NOT low cost routes. Someone like Eastern would have been ideal, Arann is possible, but BACON would be better, or as BAForever says, a bmi service (although I can't even begin to imagine a bmi base at CWL). You do need a way smaller aircraft than a 737 to build these sort of routes, since adding what is in effect 600 seats a day between the two (you have to be double daily) would be impossible to shift at anything approaching a decent yield.
Please go and read the following:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Airline-Busi...e=UTF8&s=books
It would save soooo many daft postings on this thread! And before Hawk or her mates has a paddy, no, I am not the author, and no, I don't get any commission. I just agree with his sentiments....
I've said this before - but clearly I need to say it again. CWL-CDG and CWL-BRU are NOT low cost routes. Someone like Eastern would have been ideal, Arann is possible, but BACON would be better, or as BAForever says, a bmi service (although I can't even begin to imagine a bmi base at CWL). You do need a way smaller aircraft than a 737 to build these sort of routes, since adding what is in effect 600 seats a day between the two (you have to be double daily) would be impossible to shift at anything approaching a decent yield.
Please go and read the following:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Airline-Busi...e=UTF8&s=books
It would save soooo many daft postings on this thread!
And before Hawk or her mates has a paddy, no, I am not the author, and no, I don't get any commission. I just agree with his sentiments....
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I've said this before - but clearly I need to say it again. CWL-CDG and CWL-BRU are NOT low cost routes. Someone like Eastern would have been ideal, Arann is possible, but BACON would be better, or as BAForever says, a bmi service (although I can't even begin to imagine a bmi base at CWL). You do need a way smaller aircraft than a 737 to build these sort of routes, since adding what is in effect 600 seats a day between the two (you have to be double daily) would be impossible to shift at anything approaching a decent yield.
BA
Last edited by BAforever; 28th Sep 2006 at 19:30.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Just for the record, bmibaby started CWL ops in October 2002 (hard though it may be to believe that).
BA announced the closure of their Cardiff base - including the CDG and BRU services - on 17 December 2002. All flights ended within weeks of that date.
bmibaby launched CWL-CDG in Summer 2003.
Google is your friend.....
BA announced the closure of their Cardiff base - including the CDG and BRU services - on 17 December 2002. All flights ended within weeks of that date.
bmibaby launched CWL-CDG in Summer 2003.
Google is your friend.....
Wow, it is hard to believe that its been all that time.
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BRU seems to be an especially difficult route to break into as the market from/to the UK is shrinking in pax number terms.
I have looked at 2001 when CWL still had a year-round service to BRU. It was operated on behalf of BA using I believe J 41s. There were two rotations on weekdays and one on Sundays.
In that year 20,534 pax were carried on the route giving an average load throughout the year of around 18. If Eastern could have carried this sort of load on their Jetstreams I suspect they would have been very satisfied.
In 2001 the UK-Brussels routes carried 2.44 million pax but the figure has dropped each year since then, and by 2005 had dropped to around 1.52 million pax. As an example, in 2001 BRS carried 93,000 on its BRU route but by 2005 this had dropped to 63,000 (albeit there were more rotations on the same equipment in 2001).
In February this year Air Wales tried the route again, having tested the water a year or two before for a relatively short period. The RDF may have encouraged them to try again but their only full month on the route before going out of business was March in which they carried 1159 pax, an average load of around 12, assuming all timetabled sectors were flown (I have an idea they weren’t so the actual average load would have been a little higher).
Eastern’s short tenure on the route this summer reveals 509 using the route in June and 492 in July, an average load of 6 or 7.
All this seems to confirm the argument that BRU is primarily a business route (from anywhere in the UK) where loads will not be high. One would think that Eastern would be the airline that might have made the route work.
I have looked at 2001 when CWL still had a year-round service to BRU. It was operated on behalf of BA using I believe J 41s. There were two rotations on weekdays and one on Sundays.
In that year 20,534 pax were carried on the route giving an average load throughout the year of around 18. If Eastern could have carried this sort of load on their Jetstreams I suspect they would have been very satisfied.
In 2001 the UK-Brussels routes carried 2.44 million pax but the figure has dropped each year since then, and by 2005 had dropped to around 1.52 million pax. As an example, in 2001 BRS carried 93,000 on its BRU route but by 2005 this had dropped to 63,000 (albeit there were more rotations on the same equipment in 2001).
In February this year Air Wales tried the route again, having tested the water a year or two before for a relatively short period. The RDF may have encouraged them to try again but their only full month on the route before going out of business was March in which they carried 1159 pax, an average load of around 12, assuming all timetabled sectors were flown (I have an idea they weren’t so the actual average load would have been a little higher).
Eastern’s short tenure on the route this summer reveals 509 using the route in June and 492 in July, an average load of 6 or 7.
All this seems to confirm the argument that BRU is primarily a business route (from anywhere in the UK) where loads will not be high. One would think that Eastern would be the airline that might have made the route work.
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I keep saying this as well....
LOAD IS MEANINGLESS DATA WITHOUT CORRESPONDING YIELD DATA!!
Since no-one except the carrier has any idea of their yield, making statements like "the load looked good" is meaningless.
Sorry, but it is frustrating.
I work in this field. It pays my bills. I could fill an aircraft between almost any two points on the planet. I could give tickets away, or in extremis, pay people to fly on them. The trick is, can you drive YIELD!!!!
I refer again to Rigas's book, and others who write about the good stuff like passenger price elasticity and behaviour...
LOAD IS MEANINGLESS DATA WITHOUT CORRESPONDING YIELD DATA!!
Since no-one except the carrier has any idea of their yield, making statements like "the load looked good" is meaningless.
Sorry, but it is frustrating.
I work in this field. It pays my bills. I could fill an aircraft between almost any two points on the planet. I could give tickets away, or in extremis, pay people to fly on them. The trick is, can you drive YIELD!!!!
I refer again to Rigas's book, and others who write about the good stuff like passenger price elasticity and behaviour...
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Twin Aisle,
The German routes are definitely up for discussion, be it BMI Baby or someone else who knows but with a 4th Aircraft there is no reason not to consider further business routes and yes the rumour mill definitely has German routes on it.
A bit confusing this BMI business and when they started, I certainly do not remember BA and BMI Baby operating at the same time, wish I could find the archive news you refer too but am so certain they were not there at the same time. I cleared the first baby flight for take off it was October , days the clocks changed but am sure BA had cleared off by then. It was the day all the aircraft got damaged at the flying club, I think a certain Skipper had gone from CWFC by then
The German routes are definitely up for discussion, be it BMI Baby or someone else who knows but with a 4th Aircraft there is no reason not to consider further business routes and yes the rumour mill definitely has German routes on it.
A bit confusing this BMI business and when they started, I certainly do not remember BA and BMI Baby operating at the same time, wish I could find the archive news you refer too but am so certain they were not there at the same time. I cleared the first baby flight for take off it was October , days the clocks changed but am sure BA had cleared off by then. It was the day all the aircraft got damaged at the flying club, I think a certain Skipper had gone from CWFC by then
Last edited by flower; 28th Sep 2006 at 20:35.
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flower
The BA CWL-BRU was operating in November and December 2002 (after bmibaby had started its routes from CWL).
The BRU carried 1734 pax in Nov and 1398 in Dec.
In January 2003 it carried only 111 and did not operate after that which tends to support TwinAisle's information that the final BA routes ceased within a few of weeks of 17 December 2002.
The BA CWL-BRU was operating in November and December 2002 (after bmibaby had started its routes from CWL).
The BRU carried 1734 pax in Nov and 1398 in Dec.
In January 2003 it carried only 111 and did not operate after that which tends to support TwinAisle's information that the final BA routes ceased within a few of weeks of 17 December 2002.
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Some BA routes were pulled almost as soon as they announced they were leaving CWL and I think the Brussels and possibly the Paris routes ran a little longer.
It shows how memory can trip you up but I do not remember them being there at the same time, it could be by the time Baby started most of BAs flights had gone and we were left with just the J41 and not the Embraers.
What I remember was how we had to do a major PR job when Baby visited us when they were choosing a new Base as we already knew by then that BA were pulling out and we needed a LoCo.
It shows how memory can trip you up but I do not remember them being there at the same time, it could be by the time Baby started most of BAs flights had gone and we were left with just the J41 and not the Embraers.
What I remember was how we had to do a major PR job when Baby visited us when they were choosing a new Base as we already knew by then that BA were pulling out and we needed a LoCo.