MANSTON
Join Date: Jul 2006
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The quickest I ever managed wasa little under 3 hours. However, I suggest we abandon this as it is unprovable and becoming dull, and the moderators will tell us off.
The real issue is whether Manston is credible as a London airport, which it is not, which is why the name "London Manston" was abandoned.
By contrast, having tried the well established London - Ashford railway commute, I can see why Lydd carries the "London" tag.
The real issue is whether Manston is credible as a London airport, which it is not, which is why the name "London Manston" was abandoned.
By contrast, having tried the well established London - Ashford railway commute, I can see why Lydd carries the "London" tag.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Manston has the possibilities of being a London airport only currently if it services flights that don't need to really go to LHR, LGW and STN. What I mean by that is flights that don't have any competition- or shouldn't have- flights to some Asian countries and African countries, South American etc.
I, for once, agree with DeeDave, Manston is not a London airport, when it comes to European flights, and really shouldn't be sold as one. It does however have the possibility to compete as a small regional airport- but aircraft and routes have to be right. If EUjet had got her ATRs like the plan was certain routes would have proven to be more of a success. An airline the likes of Aer Arann could succeed at MSE- and Esperia could succeed if they get the smaller BAE146 for shorthaul and then use their MD83s for holiday flights- AGP, MJV, IBZ in the summer, for example, and GVA, etc in the Winter. But all of these routes would need to be sold with the Tour Operators and for Esperia not to go LCC- that market is soaked in the UK market, and not from MSE.
I, for once, agree with DeeDave, Manston is not a London airport, when it comes to European flights, and really shouldn't be sold as one. It does however have the possibility to compete as a small regional airport- but aircraft and routes have to be right. If EUjet had got her ATRs like the plan was certain routes would have proven to be more of a success. An airline the likes of Aer Arann could succeed at MSE- and Esperia could succeed if they get the smaller BAE146 for shorthaul and then use their MD83s for holiday flights- AGP, MJV, IBZ in the summer, for example, and GVA, etc in the Winter. But all of these routes would need to be sold with the Tour Operators and for Esperia not to go LCC- that market is soaked in the UK market, and not from MSE.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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EUAir
Once again EUAir puts his finger on the key issues.
MSE is a regional airport with a hinterland stretching as far as SE London and East Sussex. For other traffic the hinterland expands considerably, and certainly takes in Greater London.
The State Farm charters were a case in point. Passengers had a 100 yard walk from aircraft to coach, and were whisked away to central London hotels, where they found their bags in their rooms. Can the London airports provide that level of service? Would lapsed time from landing to hotel room have been shorter?
The Norfolk charters will tap into that sort of market, and EUAir's suggestions about other long-distance routes make sense to me.
What impact will the security delays have on routes from the London four, when terminal space is available at MSE?
Turning to European routes, smaller aircraft are needed for domestic and near-foreign services. Twice-daily to Edinburgh and Manchester will be winners, whilst Amsterdam and Dublin ought to become possible, although I'd start them with a daily pm flight.
For MD83s, Malaga and Murcia are bankers, and the winter Geneva could be supplemented by the Canaries. A pal of mine who runs tours is already talking to Esperia about Athens.
I know that MSE is trying to persuade Wizz to open a Polish route: huge market there.
MSE's biggest allies are the M25 and the Dartford crossing.
Once again EUAir puts his finger on the key issues.
MSE is a regional airport with a hinterland stretching as far as SE London and East Sussex. For other traffic the hinterland expands considerably, and certainly takes in Greater London.
The State Farm charters were a case in point. Passengers had a 100 yard walk from aircraft to coach, and were whisked away to central London hotels, where they found their bags in their rooms. Can the London airports provide that level of service? Would lapsed time from landing to hotel room have been shorter?
The Norfolk charters will tap into that sort of market, and EUAir's suggestions about other long-distance routes make sense to me.
What impact will the security delays have on routes from the London four, when terminal space is available at MSE?
Turning to European routes, smaller aircraft are needed for domestic and near-foreign services. Twice-daily to Edinburgh and Manchester will be winners, whilst Amsterdam and Dublin ought to become possible, although I'd start them with a daily pm flight.
For MD83s, Malaga and Murcia are bankers, and the winter Geneva could be supplemented by the Canaries. A pal of mine who runs tours is already talking to Esperia about Athens.
I know that MSE is trying to persuade Wizz to open a Polish route: huge market there.
MSE's biggest allies are the M25 and the Dartford crossing.
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You-know-who-jet tried most of the above and ended up having to give seats away.
AGP 3/4 times a week was good for the school summer hols.
I always imagined IBZ was going to be a winner given the number of baseball caps round here, and was surprised when it got cut to one a week.
MAN attracted a good price, but wasn't good in terms of filling aircraft.
Most Pax flights at Manston run as a kind of "aviation charity".
As far as security delays go, terminal space is not the main issue. Trained staff and equipment is the problem.
I have four LHR and LGW flights next week, so I'll let you know how I get on!
AGP 3/4 times a week was good for the school summer hols.
I always imagined IBZ was going to be a winner given the number of baseball caps round here, and was surprised when it got cut to one a week.
MAN attracted a good price, but wasn't good in terms of filling aircraft.
Most Pax flights at Manston run as a kind of "aviation charity".
As far as security delays go, terminal space is not the main issue. Trained staff and equipment is the problem.
I have four LHR and LGW flights next week, so I'll let you know how I get on!
Last edited by deedave; 14th Aug 2006 at 20:27.
Join Date: May 2006
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I think you have to recognise that Manston isn't a charity and Infratil isn't a donor. It's supposed to be a business, and the only reason Infratil bought it was to make money. If it isn't making money and doesn't look like making money they will inevitably close it, regardless of what the airport fan club say.
For me the question is just one of timing. On land adjacent to the airport, the local Council is proposing a huge housing development. This signals the end of the area as a collection of coastal towns and the beginning of a coastal city, as they concrete over the agricultural land in the centre of the peninsula.
Manston is a valuable piece of real estate. If it fails as an airport, the owners can legitimately propose building on it. With the Council themselves proposing massive development for the area, they will be unable to resist a parallel development proposal for the airport. It is difficult to imagine Infratil making more money from it as an airport than they could make by developing it as a brownfield site. The only question for me is when they throw in the towel and go for the honey-pot.
For me the question is just one of timing. On land adjacent to the airport, the local Council is proposing a huge housing development. This signals the end of the area as a collection of coastal towns and the beginning of a coastal city, as they concrete over the agricultural land in the centre of the peninsula.
Manston is a valuable piece of real estate. If it fails as an airport, the owners can legitimately propose building on it. With the Council themselves proposing massive development for the area, they will be unable to resist a parallel development proposal for the airport. It is difficult to imagine Infratil making more money from it as an airport than they could make by developing it as a brownfield site. The only question for me is when they throw in the towel and go for the honey-pot.
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Catflaps is right!
DeeDave, we will fall out again
EUjet did run legitimate competitions that all LCC airlines run! It was often argued that too many seats were sometimes given away, however to get into certain newspapers you have to be BIG!!! In terms of revenue per seat per mile, you have no idea, and yield was above target on a large number of routes, so flights were certainly not given away.
AGP three times a week all year round can work- sell to tour operators and you can do it all year round- you need to understand your market, and there is a large tour operator market in Kent. IBZ is a large tour operator route, and the people who go to San Antonio usually want everything thrown into their price.
DeeDave, we will fall out again
EUjet did run legitimate competitions that all LCC airlines run! It was often argued that too many seats were sometimes given away, however to get into certain newspapers you have to be BIG!!! In terms of revenue per seat per mile, you have no idea, and yield was above target on a large number of routes, so flights were certainly not given away.AGP three times a week all year round can work- sell to tour operators and you can do it all year round- you need to understand your market, and there is a large tour operator market in Kent. IBZ is a large tour operator route, and the people who go to San Antonio usually want everything thrown into their price.
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A HUGE number of seats were offered for a quid, but we were informed the uptake was around 50%, and the airline continued to run with more empty seats than full ones. And I also recall that adjusting routes did little to improve load factor.
I don't really care what your "targets" were - The business lost a ridiculous amount of public and private money and went bust - end of story.
In deference to blazing_ air I will move on from EUjet.
Unless you possess a crystal ball, you have no more knowledge of what the year-round market is for AGP at Manston that I do. Aviation is too volatile an entity for that.
I too reckoned there was some kind of tour operator market in Kent, and was surprised to see how empty the Seguro aircraft were (although I saw yesterday the number of vehicles in the car park had risen from 9 to 10!!).
One does not need to to be an expert to know that without "bums on seats", a business cannot function.
I don't really care what your "targets" were - The business lost a ridiculous amount of public and private money and went bust - end of story.
In deference to blazing_ air I will move on from EUjet.
Unless you possess a crystal ball, you have no more knowledge of what the year-round market is for AGP at Manston that I do. Aviation is too volatile an entity for that.
I too reckoned there was some kind of tour operator market in Kent, and was surprised to see how empty the Seguro aircraft were (although I saw yesterday the number of vehicles in the car park had risen from 9 to 10!!).
One does not need to to be an expert to know that without "bums on seats", a business cannot function.
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DeeDave unlike you I am not bitter and twisted! AGP market from MSE does not need a genious to figure out, just need figures to hand, i.e. look to book figures, internet page view figures etc etc.- no crystal ball necessary!- but then I will also agree figures are like statistics, great on paper but don't always run true in practice.
Sine you know it was a HUGE amount of seats sir, can you put a figure on that?? The figure 50% is also amazing, as all airlines that I have ever worked for are constantly changing their quantities of sale seats, both up and down depending on markets on a daily basis!! However i don't deny that you were told that- and as you have already stated some routes perfromed worse than others, so therefor could 'afford', in the broadest sense, to have more cheap seats!
Seguro are a tour operator with a tiny customer base of Scottish clients- I am talking about a large group of the smaller ones, eg Seguro, and then the big boys- First Choice etc.
'Bums on Seats' has always been the theory, and of course is predominantly correct, however I know of anumber of FR routes which aren't filling up and are still making money due to clever bargaining by O'LearyAir Snr Management!
It's always amazing how people want to finish a topic after they write something, again, without backing up what they say, bar being a disgruntled shareholder- BTW I know what you mean- I lost over Ł4K of my share worth yesterday when some of mine slid- but that is the nature of the beast, and I won't complain!!
BTW this is the Manston thread and EUjet are and will always be a piece of MSE history so will be posted on this thread- I suggest you start a 'Manston- but not EUJet' thread! Now i am finished on the subject!
Sine you know it was a HUGE amount of seats sir, can you put a figure on that?? The figure 50% is also amazing, as all airlines that I have ever worked for are constantly changing their quantities of sale seats, both up and down depending on markets on a daily basis!! However i don't deny that you were told that- and as you have already stated some routes perfromed worse than others, so therefor could 'afford', in the broadest sense, to have more cheap seats!
Seguro are a tour operator with a tiny customer base of Scottish clients- I am talking about a large group of the smaller ones, eg Seguro, and then the big boys- First Choice etc.
'Bums on Seats' has always been the theory, and of course is predominantly correct, however I know of anumber of FR routes which aren't filling up and are still making money due to clever bargaining by O'LearyAir Snr Management!
It's always amazing how people want to finish a topic after they write something, again, without backing up what they say, bar being a disgruntled shareholder- BTW I know what you mean- I lost over Ł4K of my share worth yesterday when some of mine slid- but that is the nature of the beast, and I won't complain!!
BTW this is the Manston thread and EUjet are and will always be a piece of MSE history so will be posted on this thread- I suggest you start a 'Manston- but not EUJet' thread! Now i am finished on the subject!
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I dislike the term "bitter and twisted", however, I shall respond to your rudeness by being polite.
100,000 tickets were offered locally for a quid - at roughly 10% of the declared catchment population that meets my definition of "huge". The company reported a takeup of 50%.
If memory serves, The Evening Standard offer was totally free (inc taxes etc) and was either 10,000 or 50,000 - I forget. I do not recall being told what the takeup was for these.
There were many other offers.
I agree with you that EUjet is a crucial part of the Manston debate, although I can understand that for contributors such as Blaze, it is a depressing reminder of what this airport really is, and of its ultimate destiny (see catflaps above).
100,000 tickets were offered locally for a quid - at roughly 10% of the declared catchment population that meets my definition of "huge". The company reported a takeup of 50%.
If memory serves, The Evening Standard offer was totally free (inc taxes etc) and was either 10,000 or 50,000 - I forget. I do not recall being told what the takeup was for these.
There were many other offers.
I agree with you that EUjet is a crucial part of the Manston debate, although I can understand that for contributors such as Blaze, it is a depressing reminder of what this airport really is, and of its ultimate destiny (see catflaps above).
Join Date: Apr 2004
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no slots
So if as we've been lead to believe Manston has potential, how come no new operator has stepped up to the forefront, and the only airline showing interest looks like a 15 year olds project!?
This is just going to go around in circles.
So if as we've been lead to believe Manston has potential, how come no new operator has stepped up to the forefront, and the only airline showing interest looks like a 15 year olds project!?
This is just going to go around in circles.
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Hi nickman. I think you're missing the point. The development of Manston as a commercial airport is being used as an excuse to improve the infrastructure of the area in which it is situated i.e. better road and rail links are being constructed on the basis that the airport will need these things "when" it gets bigger.
It's now reasonably obvious to anyone with half a brain-cell that Manston is a no-goer. However, this was obvious years ago. The problem is that nobody in a position of political authority will admit it, because they've all bought into the dream and agreed to spend hundreds of millions improving the infrastructure.
You (rightly) point out that this is just going to go round and round in circles. But this is exactly what the politicians want. They don't care two hoots whether it actually succeeds or not; so long as they get the infrastructure improvements. They still haven't realized that better transport links work two ways, and that improved road and rail links will simply make it quicker and easier for local people to get to the proper London airports. The real loser is the taxpayer, who (once again) is paying for another road to nowhere.....but this time there's a rail link to nowhere as well.
It's now reasonably obvious to anyone with half a brain-cell that Manston is a no-goer. However, this was obvious years ago. The problem is that nobody in a position of political authority will admit it, because they've all bought into the dream and agreed to spend hundreds of millions improving the infrastructure.
You (rightly) point out that this is just going to go round and round in circles. But this is exactly what the politicians want. They don't care two hoots whether it actually succeeds or not; so long as they get the infrastructure improvements. They still haven't realized that better transport links work two ways, and that improved road and rail links will simply make it quicker and easier for local people to get to the proper London airports. The real loser is the taxpayer, who (once again) is paying for another road to nowhere.....but this time there's a rail link to nowhere as well.
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It seems that MK has been granted a UK AOC and that it could so resume flights to North America, after US authorities had lifted flights for Ghana-registered aircraft following the MK Halifax crash of October 2004. This should be a perfect opportunity for MK to cut back on flights to Ostend and to concentrate on Manston. At present 25 percent of MK movements within Europe are shorter than 200 miles (Manston-Ostend, 65 miles and Ostend-Luxemburg, 180 miles). This is an utmost waste of time and money. Recently MK has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the Ostend authority, intending to intensify substantially as a ‘preferential partner’ its freight activities, however promising to schedule all operations during day time. Such intentions could also be held in Manston, provided MK be treated as a preferential partner. In the view of Manston in a pressing need for expansion, efforts to get much more MK flights might result in its survival, which at present doesn’t seem so evident.
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Always nice to have a chuckle........
Local rag reported that the "300 or 400" pax departing for Faro and Barcelona did not experience any security delays last Thursday (presumably a Manston press release)
As the number of vehicles in the car park is now down to 6, this is kinda funny...
Maybe they meant 30 or 40.
Mind you, if 400 pax had turned up by taxi, 40 of them would have had to sit on the wings, as there is only space for 360 on the two departures!
Local rag reported that the "300 or 400" pax departing for Faro and Barcelona did not experience any security delays last Thursday (presumably a Manston press release)
As the number of vehicles in the car park is now down to 6, this is kinda funny...
Maybe they meant 30 or 40.
Mind you, if 400 pax had turned up by taxi, 40 of them would have had to sit on the wings, as there is only space for 360 on the two departures!
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no slots, I am confused a bit? I am quoting you now:
"How about no owners therefor no operating license therefor no airport therefor no staff!! Seems pretty f***ing obvious!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Infratil took over the airport relatively shortly afterwards, but since then NO AIRLINE has taken over ANY of EUjet scheduled routes. I would suggest and in your words that "It seems pretty f***ing obvious that no airline could make a good profit from the routes EUjet subsidised their own passengers to fly on"?
"How about no owners therefor no operating license therefor no airport therefor no staff!! Seems pretty f***ing obvious!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Infratil took over the airport relatively shortly afterwards, but since then NO AIRLINE has taken over ANY of EUjet scheduled routes. I would suggest and in your words that "It seems pretty f***ing obvious that no airline could make a good profit from the routes EUjet subsidised their own passengers to fly on"?
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Infratil quite publicly announced that there was a great deal of maintenance required prior to opening to the airport to scheduled operators. I think it goes to show that Infratil, unlike the previous owners, have financial backing and therefore do not need to rush headlong into the wrong deal. What would everyone be saying if a new operator started flights and then within a short space of time the runway ends broke up or the lighting failed and flights were suspended. That would be great publicity!!