DUBLIN

[PPRuNe Pop]

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PPP

[840]

Ryanair are to add a route to Berlin in June.

The airline that was not going to expand further in Dublin will then operate 52 routes out of the airport...

[Irish Steve]

Things were supposed to improve, I don't think so!!

Things were supposed to be improving at DUB, but they haven't, not if this morning is anything to go by. We arrived at the airport at 0500 for an 0630 departure. The set down road was a complete shambles, they've painted "pedestrian safety zones" to replace the real pavement that used to be there, but they don't work, and cars parked at the entrance to the set down road meant that nothing much was getting in, so we abandoned the vehicle ( family member was dropping us off so we could do that), and walked in.

We were on this new FR on line web check in system. I am going to be discussing that in a LOT more detail with some highly placed people at DUB, in that as it worked this morning, the potential security breach that I predicted some time ago was all too possible.

We walked in to the terminal just as the C Pier end security gates were opening, which was just as well, the queue for the other end stretched the full length of the check in area. By luck and luck alone, and NOTHING to do with competent management of the situation, we were through the airside security check by 0510. As I mentioned, we were lucky, we were talking to the passenger next to us during the flight, he arrived at the airport at 0520, and got the the gate at 0620, for an 0630 scheduled departure, and several people in a considerable state of distress and undress arrived and boarded after 0630. We didn't push till 0650.

Now, to the issues. They have at last decided that they can scan shoes without them being removed, but trouser belts still seem to be beyond the technology!

The REAL HOLE. As I mentioned, we were on the FR "online" web checkin system, which in theory, could help. Problem was that if I'd chosen to give a copy of the boarding card to members of my family, and sent them through first, they would have been airside without being checked, as there was NO PHOTO / NAME ID CHECK AT THE AIRSIDE ENTRANCE where they scanned the boarding card to make sure it was valid. FUNDAMENTAL GREAT HOLE in the system, which will have to be followed up with DAA and other agencies. All they did was scan the boarding card to make sure it was in the system, but they didn't validate the photo ID to make sure that they matched. That is a FUNDAMENTAL MASSIVE SCREW UP with enormous security implications.

They have a new pier in the middle of the airfield, A64 - A71. It's a LONG walk, not helped by massive congestion at the bottom of the short escalator into the "Old" A area, so it's a fight to get past that.

In our case, we arrived at A64 at 0530, so plenty of time for a relaxed drink. WRONG. The one and only hot drink vending machine was "out of order". There is also a coffee / sandwich bar out there. That was not open when we arrived, and eventually opened at 0600, after several flights had already boarded. At 0610, having queued for service, I asked for 2 coffees. "No, can't do that for at least 10 minutes, the machine's not on yet". Simple answer to that, "Forget it", we were due to board in 5. We started boarding at 0615, and eventually pushed at 0650, airborne 0710, arrived BRS 20 minutes late. To add insult to aggravation, FR could not change Euro currency on the aircraft, I tendered 5.50 for 2 coffees ( Yeah!!!), and didn't get the change I was due, "they had no change", on a Dublin based aircraft, on it's first flight of the day, and we were the first customers served.

All in all, if that's the way that things are going to be at DUB this summer, it will be worth looking at driving up to Belfast and flying from there to avoid the chaos that's only going to get worse!!!!! The new A64-71 area has 8 gates, so potentially 1600 passengers in the area. About 250 seats or thereabout, so potential for a lot of disattisfaction there too.

OK, DAA have still a mountain to climb to be even close to getting it sorted, and their track record to date is not encouraging. That's minor compared to the security issues, bearing in mind they've failed one audit not too long ago, and the knee jerk to that made it almost impossible to get through the place. Now, after "resistance" to the new FR check in plans, that's supposedly up and running. All it's done as demonstrated today is totally compromise airside security. That's NOT clever.

My big concern is that the web check in being used by FR is not secure, or, to be more accurate, as operated this morning at DUB, it's not secure. Given the rampant paranoia that surrounds everything to do with aviation now, that's NOT good, or helpful.

[Hial Flyer]

Originally Posted by Irish Steve
"The REAL HOLE. As I mentioned, we were on the FR "online" web checkin system, which in theory, could help. Problem was that if I'd chosen to give a copy of the boarding card to members of my family, and sent them through first, they would have been airside without being checked, as there was NO PHOTO / NAME ID CHECK AT THE AIRSIDE ENTRANCE where they scanned the boarding card to make sure it was valid. FUNDAMENTAL GREAT HOLE in the system, which will have to be followed up with DAA and other agencies. All they did was scan the boarding card to make sure it was in the system, but they didn't validate the photo ID to make sure that they matched. That is a FUNDAMENTAL MASSIVE SCREW UP with enormous security implications."

I fly frequently with BA and BMI using their online check-in. At all the airports I have passed through using the system they only scan the boarding card. No ID check is made. If you fly domestically with BA and BMI you don't even show any ID to board the aircraft. This ID check was started by the LCC's to stop you giving your ticket to someone else if you couldn't travel.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by Irish Steve

there was NO PHOTO / NAME ID CHECK AT THE AIRSIDE ENTRANCE where they scanned the boarding card to make sure it was valid. FUNDAMENTAL GREAT HOLE in the system, which will have to be followed up with DAA and other agencies. All they did was scan the boarding card to make sure it was in the system, but they didn't validate the photo ID to make sure that they matched. That is a FUNDAMENTAL MASSIVE SCREW UP with enormous security implications

Oh for goodness sake ! If you travel domestic on BA inside the UK there is no photo-id check at all. Nor on domestic flights in many other European countries either. They manage quite fine without it.

And the only reason airlines in the UK ask for your passport on International flights is to check it is valid as otherwise they can be fined for delivering pax without the right documentation to destination airports.

I know in the US they ask you about 50 times in the airport to show your photo ID. But it is not necessary to ape US ideas in security at every stage.

LCCs like Ryanair and Easyjet in the UK check photo IDs purely as a commercial revenue protection measure to stop businesses buying their very cheap tickets a month ahead and then issuing them on the day to whichever of their staff happen to be travelling, when fares may be 50 times (literally) as much. It is NOT for security.

[Flame]

IrishSteve

Surely by now you must know, that management at the DAA are lacking in intelligence. Having experienced at first hand the antics of senior management at Dublin and the people before him in trying to manage the hole they call Dublin Airport, it is no surprise to me at all, that you are not happy about your experience travelling through this pit.

There was a time 2 years back, when on Saturday mornings in August, congestion on the ramp was so bad that aircraft waited in some cases nearly an hour for a stand...now I see it happening weekdays in May and June. The terminal is so packed especially on a weekend, that I feel that the Fire Officer is leaving himself exposed should an incident occur where a speedy evacuation is required..people are going to be seriously injured in trying to escapte the terminal, never mind what happens to cause it

As an aside, how much time did you have to wait in line to be processed at Immigration when you arrived back to Dublin...I'll almost bet that you did not just walk straight through without a wait

[Irish Steve]

I think some of you have missed the point I am trying to make.

In the "old" system, I went to the airline counter, with whatever was appropriate, ticket or otherwise, and got given a boarding card. There was no way that the same boarding card got issued twice.

Now, I can print my boarding card at home, on my PC, and if I want to, I can make as many copies as I like. If someone else who is not the person named used "my" boarding card, they would have been airside, no problem, and if I then turn up a few minutes later, and the system says, they're already airside, I then produce appropriate evidence that I am the named passenger etc, and I should get access airside. In the meantime, what, if anything, is done to trace the "duplicate" that went through ahead of me, and who has now done whatever they wanted to to get "lost".

I used to work airside, and I can think of a number of ways that I could get out on to the ramp having got airside, and once on the ramp, the possibilities are endless. I am not about to post them here, suffice to say that the new on linecheck in system has some serious security holes that has very little to do with the ID as such, and everything to do with the removal from the loop of the airline computer and checking that only one person has the boarding card. That's the point I am trying to make, that more than one person can very easily get access to a boarding card, not that the ID check is the be all and end all of that process.

[Irish Steve]

Its not as easy as you think it is to get out on the ramp.

I'm not saying it's easy, if it was, I would be even more worried, but with the right knowledge, and a little bit of preparation, it's not going to be that hard, I spent 2 years working on the ramp at DUB post 9-11, so I know the system very well, and also know it's shortcomings, which I am not about to broadcast here for what I hope are obvious reasons

There are some serious issues here, which appear to have been conveniently "forgotten" when agreeing to the new systems now in place, and if investigated properly, there will be repercussions that could make the transit from landside to airside even more tortuous than it is at present, which has to be bad news for the 20 or so million passengers that DUB thinks it's going to process this year.

It's bad enough now, there are so many unresolved issues at DUB it's no longer a joke, it's gone beyond that, and the most depressing aspect of it all is that DAA seem to think they are doing a good job. All I shall say is that there's none so blind as them that can't see

[apaddyinuk]

Why is the DAA getting all the blame here? Surely FR should be getting some too. Afterall, if this is the case that you can get all the way onboard the a/c without having your ID checked then it is clear that FR have learnt nothing at all from the Dispatches documentary!!! Their busy hosties should also be checking the ID's!

[akerosid]

Without wishing to deny the importance of security, I think one key problem is that the DAA has a major problem with long term planning. If you look at the site for the new terminal, not only does it eat into space occupied by an only recently completed pier expansion, but even that space is constricted; there's Corballis House on one side (listed?), there's the cargo terminal and then at the far end of the pier, there's the runway. Now, it occurs to me that only one side of the pier could be used for WB jets, unless they move the cargo terminal ... but where to?

We heard, only a few weeks ago, that the building itself has to be increased in size because of growth plans by EI and FR, BUT ... that's hardly news. A new passenger terminal should be planned with around 10-15 years growth; to have to review plans after less than a year is surely unacceptable. Even if they do increase the size of the terminal, there is still room for only one pier; now how many WB aircraft can be parked at that pier - 4, max? And possibly only on one side. And how long is that going to last, at the growth rates currently being achieved. It's hardly news to anyone that EI wants to grow its long haul operation; the airline has long talked of about 14 long haul aircraft, so what's the point of introducing a terminal with space for only four long haul aircraft? (And then there's other airlines' aircraft). And this terminal is supposed to accommodate growth until when?

This, added to the runway length issue and the failure to provide cargo facilities, must surely point to a serious crisis, yet the govt has been content to simply sign over responsibility for the airport to the DAA, without any oversight or interference.

This simply cannot go on. Lessons are not being learned. As an island nation, Ireland needs a very aggressive, pro-active and growth orientated aviation policy, but the whole handling of this shows that the interest simply isn't there at govt level.

[Cyrano]

From RTE's website:

Airport marquee plans hit by glitch
06 June 2006 13:55
The Dublin Airport Authority's plans to build a marquee on top of the multi storey car park in time for the busy summer season have run into difficulty.
The airport authority has only just announced its intention to seek planning permission for the marquee with Fingal County Council.
The council says it has not yet received any application although there have been a number of pre-planning meetings.
After the application has been received, the council has up to eight weeks to make a decision and there is a further four weeks appeal period.
This means construction of the marquee is not likely to start until August at the earliest.
The Dublin Airport Authority wants the marquee to be a temporary waiting area where they can accommodate passengers delayed due to 'unforeseen events' such as strikes or bad weather.
It would hold more than 1,000 people.
The authority had intended the marquee to be in place by the beginning of June.
Construction of the marquee would entail the loss of around 120 car parking spaces.

[akerosid]

This is very disappointing; I'd been waiting anxiously for this - on tenterhooks!

Can't they just negotiate with the planning people? Surely intense (ouch!) negotiations should do the trick

Seriously, though, did nobody in the DAA's planning department (quickly becoming an oxymoron) pipe up and say "we might need planning for this!"; this proposal is hardly new. We can express resigned acceptance of the fact that they can't plan a new terminal … but not being able to plan a tent, I mean - come on!!!!

Still, not the end of the world; they can always hand out umbrellas.

(Just a thought; if they put the waiting area in a covered part of the parking lot - say level 4 or 5, they wouldn't need a marquee? It's the same thing, surely, … to all intents and purposes? )

[Irish Steve]

Why is the DAA getting all the blame here? Surely FR should be getting some too.

the reason I am being so vocal about this is simple. FR have succeeded in "simplifying" the check in process so that they don't have to deal with a queue of people at check in just to give them a boarding card. OK, so far, no problem with that, the on line check in process requires that the person checking in has the details of the flight that has been booked.

However, and this is where I get more uncomfortable, I now have on my PC, and printable as many times as I care to print it, a boarding card for a specific flight. I arrive at the airport, and proceed directly to the security check to go airside. All that was checked on Saturday morning was my FR boarding card, printed on my computer. If I had printed more than one, and given it to "AN other", if AN other had gone through security before me, then IF the FR system had said "The boarding card has already been scanned", I produce Valid ID and have a hissy fit that I'm being denied boarding.

If I get airside, which I should, then the person who went before me has got airside when they should not. My "reason" for requiring to go back in again could also be "I forgot something from my car so had to go back to the car park to get it", so the ONLY way to maintain security in this scenario is to check the ID AND the boarding card, and make sure they match AT THE POINT OF ENTRY TO AIRSIDE.

At that point, this is nothing to do with the specific flight, and everything to do with that a person with no business airside has got past the airside security check. Believe me, once that has been done, having worked on the ramp at DUB for several years, I can think of several ways that it would then be possible to get from airside to the ramp. I am not about to disclose them here!!!!

Once on the ramp, it would be possible to do quite a few things that would be "inappropriate".

FR check IDs on boarding, and do a head count, so this is NOT about someone getting on to a flight that they are not ticketed for, and EVERYTHING to do with the airside security system being breached.

I made representations at the time this was announced that there were massive holes in this concept, I was told, "it's sorted", and Saturday morning has proved to me that it is not, for exactly the reasons I gave at the time.

[840]

Surely the problem is stopping unauthorised people getting from the passenger area airside to the ramp rather than stopping people getting airside. I'd be a little disturbed if an passenger with a legitimate boarding card was wandering around the ramp.

Incidentally, I have noticed one potential immigration issue at Dublin. Certain flights from outside the common travel area with the UK land at pier A (for example Ryanair from Beauvais or Charleroi). With the cooperation of an EU citizen living in Ireland, someone could use this fact to bypass immigration.

Basically, what the person would do is book a flight into Ireland from one of these origins. The local resident would book an internal Irish flight on Aer Arann, check-in and proceed to Pier A. At Pier A, they would hand the boarding card to the person who has arrived and not cleared immigration. The local resident could then come back out of Pier A showing a legitimate passport while the person who hasn't cleared immigration could board the flight to Knock/Kerry/Sligo etc where their ID wouldn't be checked (Also, Aer Arann (legitimately) never check ID while boarding internal flights).

I doubt anyone's ever tried it, but it has the potential to be used.

[apaddyinuk]

Irish Steve,
BA have been using online check-in successfully now for about a year and it has been introduced more or less worldwide in that time. BA customers (except ex USA where they must ID themselves to a member of BA staff at checkin) can proceed all the way to the gate without having to show any ID to anyone. Whether you think this is right or wrong, it has obviously undergone thorough checks and has had the sign off from the airline and airports security experts otherwise it would not be happening.
My worry would be if the staff at the gate (in the case of FR the cabin crew) are not checking the ID's as the pax board the aircraft.
Having spend three years working on the ramp in DUB both before and after 9/11 I too am all too aware of the security loopholes in the airport (remember that landside lift beside Hughes and Hughes where one could get into the baggage hall without a security and check in agents often took passengers down if they left something in their luggage that they needed? ) but I am also aware that there have been major improvements since and I dont feel that the online boarding pass is a big threat to the airport.

[Flame]

EI-RB

Pier A at Dublin is the only Pier, where arriving and departing Passengers mix quite freely. The DAA are now putting many non CTA flights into Pier A and all mix freely, I guess its only a matter of time before something has to happen for the DAA to change things

[Global Pilot]

Irish Steve, I accept your concerns regarding potential security breaches at Dublin Airport. Are yanair to blame in any way, I think not.
Ryanair's online checkin is a logical progresive move to improve checkin procedures for passengers and reduce costs to the airline. It is only a matter of time before it is adopted by every airline worldwide. I am sure EI are asking themselves why they invested so heavily in Easy check in when all they had to do was ask their customers to print off their own borading cards at home or at the office before the left for the airport. I know you still can't check in bags when you check in online but perhaps it will be that case in the near future as many US carriers now offer that service.

Yes, there is the potential for an "unauthorised" person to be airside if they get a DIY boarding card from someone else but surely if two people were adament to get one airside for the purpose of getting access to the ramp to make a political statement or commit an act of terrorism then why don't they just buy a ticket, check in online themselves, proceed thru security with their own boarding card and ID and go about their business. This way they don't run the risk of alerting security to their plans.

I have been comuting between SNN and STN for the past two months and in the past few weeks being able to check in online at SNN has been fantastic. Finish work at 1515, airport by 1530, boarding gate by 1540 (just in time to hear my name being called to identify myself as an online pax), catch the 1605 to STN and I am sitting in my local in Stansted village by 1730 if everything goes on schedule. I must congradulate Ryanair for enabling me to do this. Yes they are doing it in order to reduce costs but I save heaps of time and in business isn't time equal to money?

GP

[akerosid]

Ryanair to launch six new routes from Dublin

Ryanair is to announce six new routes from Dublin within the next 4-6 weeks. The new routes would not begin until December, when DUB's new basement check in area is open.

While the airline is obviously staying tight lipped about this, one can possibly make a few guesses, judging by recent comments (including an interview with MO'L in today's Business Post):

Marseilles (new base, opening later this year)
New route to Morocco
New route to Poland (possibly 2)
New Irish domestic routes: Kerry/Shannon - possibly Derry too?
Stockholm - Skavska?

[airhumberside]

DUB-Marseilles was announced last December

Aren't FR not expanding to Sweden while issues about a new tax onnplane passengers are sorted out

Oslo Torp is another gap in FR's DUB route network

[Ametyst]

Never second guess Ryanair. We heard they were starting 11 new routes from Liverpool in October which would feature two new countries not served from Liverpool. The rumour mill duitifully churned and came up with a list of destinations which were:

Salzburg (Austria - new country), Bratislava (Slovakia - new country), Valencia, Almeria, Frankfurt Hahn, Hamburg Lubeck, Stockholm Nykoping, Wroclaw, Lodz, Bologna Forli and Eindhoven. And what did Liverpool get?

Aberdeen, Alghero, Ancona, Inverness, Kaunas, Krakow, Poznan, Santander, Santiago de Compestela, Tampere and Wroclaw. (Well, one out of eleven can't be bad!!!). The new countries were Finland and Lithuania.