Flybe Purchase EMB195 (merged)
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wasn't so long ago at my exit interview that they dangled the boeing flavoured carrot under my nose. Saying as they were happy with the current trials going on boeings were a sure thing in the not so distance future.
Fortunately I wasn't hungry at the time so I didn't take a bite and left. I had heard too much BS at my time there.
Fortunately I wasn't hungry at the time so I didn't take a bite and left. I had heard too much BS at my time there.
MOR / notac, I understand your anger but do recognise that things do change over time.
There could be any number of reasons why the 737 trial was right at the time but perhaps isn't the right method for the long-term future. It could be that the markets (particularly at BHX) into which Flybe entered are too competitive and yields are too low to make any money. It could be that any new potential owner of Flybe doesn't like the idea of playing the easyJets and Ryanairs at their own game with 737-size aircraft, and instead wants the company to focus on regional routes with regional aircraft.
Just because things have changed from then to now doesn't necessarily mean that someone was lying in the first place! At the end of the day, the company's primary objective is not to provide its pilots with a nice type rating. I presume its priorities are much like any other airline - operate safely and make a profit. If you can get a 737 or A320 type rating into the bargain, then good for you. If not, venting your spleen on here isn't going to change that either.
There could be any number of reasons why the 737 trial was right at the time but perhaps isn't the right method for the long-term future. It could be that the markets (particularly at BHX) into which Flybe entered are too competitive and yields are too low to make any money. It could be that any new potential owner of Flybe doesn't like the idea of playing the easyJets and Ryanairs at their own game with 737-size aircraft, and instead wants the company to focus on regional routes with regional aircraft.
Just because things have changed from then to now doesn't necessarily mean that someone was lying in the first place! At the end of the day, the company's primary objective is not to provide its pilots with a nice type rating. I presume its priorities are much like any other airline - operate safely and make a profit. If you can get a 737 or A320 type rating into the bargain, then good for you. If not, venting your spleen on here isn't going to change that either.
Plumbum Pendular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 55
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wouldn't it make more sense for them to go for the Canadair RJ's seeing as they have a load of type rated guys from when they used to operate them?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlightRider and Trislander, at bloody last someone with some sense! I totally agree. In the famous words of the late George Dunn - "This ain't a flying club"
Do these people really think that any other airline is going to tell us bitching and moaning synics called pilots their every projected move before its happened. Get real guys.
Do these people really think that any other airline is going to tell us bitching and moaning synics called pilots their every projected move before its happened. Get real guys.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Southend On Sea
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Notac
Why do you think that any airline executive considers you the pilot, soley in making his or her business decision. If you want to fly another type or expect your airline to get you a rating on the type of your choice then you can get out and find another job you should think again. If you are a young man you could be partially excused but if you have 4 bars on your shirt you are very sad.
What is it about you guys, you work for a good company, you get paid on time so why dont you just fly and shut up about your needs for YOUR future.
OR alternatly find someone to back you and start your own airline so that you can practice your well refined ideas thought up during the time you guys sit on the flight deck doing bu---er all and you will quickly find out it aint easy.
Why do you think that any airline executive considers you the pilot, soley in making his or her business decision. If you want to fly another type or expect your airline to get you a rating on the type of your choice then you can get out and find another job you should think again. If you are a young man you could be partially excused but if you have 4 bars on your shirt you are very sad.
What is it about you guys, you work for a good company, you get paid on time so why dont you just fly and shut up about your needs for YOUR future.
OR alternatly find someone to back you and start your own airline so that you can practice your well refined ideas thought up during the time you guys sit on the flight deck doing bu---er all and you will quickly find out it aint easy.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Euroland
Posts: 959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trislander
It has nothing to do with business models, it has to do with your marketability as a pilot, should you want to move on at some point. If, for example, you base closes and you choose to move on rather than change your place of residence, you are going to find how many openings for an EMB-rated pilot? Virtually none. So now you will probably have to go and buy a 737/A320 type rating to become employable. That's why I used the word "career".
Flightrider
But there aren't. All the research that showed a 150-seat aircraft as the best choice, is still valid. There are many reasons why the Embraer is a bad choice, and only one reason that it is a good choice - the price.
By the way, I'm not angry at all. I've always liked flybe as a company, despite some severe provocation over the years, and I have a lot of respect for JF. But I'm not blind, and I do have some well-placed "sources". It is absolutely obvious that flybe wanted the bigger aircraft, but simply cannot pay for them at the moment. The Embraer is like the Q400, a new aircraft that the manufacturer is desperate to establish a market for. Deals will be done with early customers, and that is why these aircraft are coming our way.
I'm sure it will be well equipped and nice to fly, but it will never be a good career move for those that actually have ambition beyond flybe.
girt big un
Spoken like a true company man... 
The reason that some consider their needs and their future, is because they know that the company won't (and can't). Much as I like some aspects of flybe, they have a terrible record of displacing people at short notice, closing bases at the drop of a hat, and generally screwing people around. You have to look after yourself.
The bottom line is that I do have needs, and I do care about my future, and I have to act to protect that. If you want to end your career poling a Q400, then good for you. Most of us want a little more from our careers, and it is becoming increasingly clear that the company will never be able to satisfy that need. The carrot of a 737 rating was a potential career progression path, and the semi-carrot that was the "narrow body jet" payscale was another - the implication being that a wide-body jet was coming.
Having heard JF say many, many times that the company needed a 150-seat jet to move the business on, I am convinced that the Embraer was not the first choice - but the only choice left to them. The market has not changed in a way that would make the Embraer a good choice - if anything, it has moved the other way. The other LoCos recognise that the 150 seat aircraft is the smallest practical proposition for that business model - it has nothing to do with fuel burn either. We will have to carry several extra crews for the same pax numbers, for example. There are other costs - more landing fees per pax, more engineering per pax, and so on.
How's that a bad career move if they have already proven that they're business model works?
Flightrider
There could be any number of reasons why the 737 trial was right at the time but perhaps isn't the right method for the long-term future.
By the way, I'm not angry at all. I've always liked flybe as a company, despite some severe provocation over the years, and I have a lot of respect for JF. But I'm not blind, and I do have some well-placed "sources". It is absolutely obvious that flybe wanted the bigger aircraft, but simply cannot pay for them at the moment. The Embraer is like the Q400, a new aircraft that the manufacturer is desperate to establish a market for. Deals will be done with early customers, and that is why these aircraft are coming our way.
I'm sure it will be well equipped and nice to fly, but it will never be a good career move for those that actually have ambition beyond flybe.
girt big un
What is it about you guys, you work for a good company, you get paid on time so why dont you just fly and shut up about your needs for YOUR future.
The reason that some consider their needs and their future, is because they know that the company won't (and can't). Much as I like some aspects of flybe, they have a terrible record of displacing people at short notice, closing bases at the drop of a hat, and generally screwing people around. You have to look after yourself.
The bottom line is that I do have needs, and I do care about my future, and I have to act to protect that. If you want to end your career poling a Q400, then good for you. Most of us want a little more from our careers, and it is becoming increasingly clear that the company will never be able to satisfy that need. The carrot of a 737 rating was a potential career progression path, and the semi-carrot that was the "narrow body jet" payscale was another - the implication being that a wide-body jet was coming.
Having heard JF say many, many times that the company needed a 150-seat jet to move the business on, I am convinced that the Embraer was not the first choice - but the only choice left to them. The market has not changed in a way that would make the Embraer a good choice - if anything, it has moved the other way. The other LoCos recognise that the 150 seat aircraft is the smallest practical proposition for that business model - it has nothing to do with fuel burn either. We will have to carry several extra crews for the same pax numbers, for example. There are other costs - more landing fees per pax, more engineering per pax, and so on.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>you guys sit on the flight deck doing bu---er all<<
what a pathetic comment.....
There are a number of pretty obvious reasons why they didn't go for Boeing or Airbus.
1) they'd have to put down a deposit, and they haven't got any cash
2) with a non-common a/c, they can continue to pay crappy wages because there are no other operators to compare with.
To all you guys who are staying - watch out for the bond they'll be throwing at you - it'll probably go up to about £15000.
what a pathetic comment.....
There are a number of pretty obvious reasons why they didn't go for Boeing or Airbus.
1) they'd have to put down a deposit, and they haven't got any cash
2) with a non-common a/c, they can continue to pay crappy wages because there are no other operators to compare with.
To all you guys who are staying - watch out for the bond they'll be throwing at you - it'll probably go up to about £15000.
Er 82
Amazing isn't it - three years ago you would probably have gone anywhere and flown anything for a first job, and a dash 300 at British European based on your own rock must have seemed like manna from heaven.
15k bond - so what. If you don't leave you don't pay, so the only ones who it effects are the ones who want flybe to pay for a type rating so they can sod off and leave the company in the lurch (and their ex colleagues who will sufferfrom even more roster turbulence whilst replacement crews are hired). Hence the bond in the first place.
That said, best of luck with your new employer - presumably no bond, no roster changes, nothing but really green grass.
(And from my side at least a shame we never got to fly together)
Amazing isn't it - three years ago you would probably have gone anywhere and flown anything for a first job, and a dash 300 at British European based on your own rock must have seemed like manna from heaven.
15k bond - so what. If you don't leave you don't pay, so the only ones who it effects are the ones who want flybe to pay for a type rating so they can sod off and leave the company in the lurch (and their ex colleagues who will sufferfrom even more roster turbulence whilst replacement crews are hired). Hence the bond in the first place.
That said, best of luck with your new employer - presumably no bond, no roster changes, nothing but really green grass.
(And from my side at least a shame we never got to fly together)
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 51
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fmgc - thought that myself until I saw max pax of an 195 and remembered there ain't no CRJ that holds that many, and won't be unless BBD gets its act together on the C110/130.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, totally true, when I started it was the perfect job. But, like pretty much everyone else who has already gone, it was the disruption and night-stopping, and not too good pay that's made me leave. Why stay for a command on the Dash when I can get RHS earning pretty much the same? And it'll be on a jet. Not much competition really between the two - although quite obviously that's a personal choice.
To be honest, I didn't expect to be leaving FlyBE within 3 yrs, so wasn't at all expecting them to pay for my type-rating and then sod off. I'll be £300 a month worse of till it's all paid off. My problem, no-one elses. But to be fair, it's a bit harsh saying I'm leaving the company and ex-colleagues in the lurch. The way it's worked out, I've given 4 months notice. Plenty of time to hire someone new. The reason why there are lack of crews at the moment is because of FlyBE's lack of foresight. Was it not only last November we were all being offered part-time, because according to him that knows all, we were overcrewed?!?!
To go from being in that situation to the one we are in know - had it happened in any other company, there would have been some sacking going on!!
With these extra 40 odd Dash's coming our way, it turns out we need to be training 10 pilots a month. No doubt these will all be newbies with 250hrs (I'm not knocking it, because I once was one), and the company will very soon have an experience level that is so low some would start to question it.
As it happens, it's inlikely this 10-a-month will ever be met, and more flights will be cancelled because of lack of crew, much like they are being this weekend.
There are a few guys in this company I've not flown with, but unfortunately haven't had the chance. I'm just afraid I don't know who you are, but you're probably one of them......
Oh, and just for chuckles.... the new hangar in EXT...... the 195 won't fit in it!
To be honest, I didn't expect to be leaving FlyBE within 3 yrs, so wasn't at all expecting them to pay for my type-rating and then sod off. I'll be £300 a month worse of till it's all paid off. My problem, no-one elses. But to be fair, it's a bit harsh saying I'm leaving the company and ex-colleagues in the lurch. The way it's worked out, I've given 4 months notice. Plenty of time to hire someone new. The reason why there are lack of crews at the moment is because of FlyBE's lack of foresight. Was it not only last November we were all being offered part-time, because according to him that knows all, we were overcrewed?!?!
To go from being in that situation to the one we are in know - had it happened in any other company, there would have been some sacking going on!!
With these extra 40 odd Dash's coming our way, it turns out we need to be training 10 pilots a month. No doubt these will all be newbies with 250hrs (I'm not knocking it, because I once was one), and the company will very soon have an experience level that is so low some would start to question it.
As it happens, it's inlikely this 10-a-month will ever be met, and more flights will be cancelled because of lack of crew, much like they are being this weekend.
There are a few guys in this company I've not flown with, but unfortunately haven't had the chance. I'm just afraid I don't know who you are, but you're probably one of them......
Oh, and just for chuckles.... the new hangar in EXT...... the 195 won't fit in it!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Northern Wastes
Age: 45
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stop the Whinging
er82,
You've only been in the company a month longer than me so that still puts you in the newbie catagory in my opinion anyway.
Were all newbies until we have a green book of our own.
Why Why Why do people continue to slag of flybe and the pay, as excrab said, the thought of flying a D-8-300 a couple of years ago would of had you wetting your pants. We all new what the deal was when we joined and I for one still love my job, I've just bought a house next to the sea have money in the bank and have a command in the pipe-line soon.
Some people dont know how lucky they are, think of the guys working for companys like Emerald flying HS748's round all night for £14000. they are the hard up ones not us. Keep it in perspective.
You've only been in the company a month longer than me so that still puts you in the newbie catagory in my opinion anyway.
Were all newbies until we have a green book of our own.
Why Why Why do people continue to slag of flybe and the pay, as excrab said, the thought of flying a D-8-300 a couple of years ago would of had you wetting your pants. We all new what the deal was when we joined and I for one still love my job, I've just bought a house next to the sea have money in the bank and have a command in the pipe-line soon.
Some people dont know how lucky they are, think of the guys working for companys like Emerald flying HS748's round all night for £14000. they are the hard up ones not us. Keep it in perspective.
Last edited by jarjam; 11th Jun 2005 at 10:50.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess i'm an easy target on here, because everyone knows who I am. Think of the 90 odd that have left. Were they all wrong to go? Were all their personal opinions and choices wrong?
I guess it's what you want from flying that will make up your mind whether you stay or go. You might be happy with a command on the Dash, and a house by the sea. I'd like to get on a jet, and earn some decent money.
It comes to something when a company won't even offer a decent disruption pay - says great things about how they think they'll be managing such disruption in the future!
As for going on about me wetting my pants when I got offered this job however long ago it was. Well, everyone has to start somewhere, and getting your foot on the ladder is the biggest hurdle. Whether you stay on that ladder or transfer to one which will take you much higher - personal choice. And yes, I was very grateful and always will be to FlyBe for giving me that chance, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm indebted to them forever.
I might have a groan on here, or flyingbe, but I've never been late for work, have accepted all kinds of crap roster changes, and
have spent many many nights away from home. I think I've done my service.
Good Luck to you getting your command. Hope FlyBE treats you well.
I guess it's what you want from flying that will make up your mind whether you stay or go. You might be happy with a command on the Dash, and a house by the sea. I'd like to get on a jet, and earn some decent money.
It comes to something when a company won't even offer a decent disruption pay - says great things about how they think they'll be managing such disruption in the future!
As for going on about me wetting my pants when I got offered this job however long ago it was. Well, everyone has to start somewhere, and getting your foot on the ladder is the biggest hurdle. Whether you stay on that ladder or transfer to one which will take you much higher - personal choice. And yes, I was very grateful and always will be to FlyBe for giving me that chance, but it certainly doesn't mean I'm indebted to them forever.
I might have a groan on here, or flyingbe, but I've never been late for work, have accepted all kinds of crap roster changes, and
have spent many many nights away from home. I think I've done my service.
Good Luck to you getting your command. Hope FlyBE treats you well.
Buzz off with BAF!!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Essex England
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone in the FlyBe rumour loop heard anything about
possible new routes out of Southend for 2006?
Belfast, EDI and GLA in addition to the existing JER have
been mentioned, but with the Q400.
possible new routes out of Southend for 2006?
Belfast, EDI and GLA in addition to the existing JER have
been mentioned, but with the Q400.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: here and there mostly
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
looking at the specs available on various web sites and comparing it to embraers site,
it would appear that with the 195's 118 capacity,
it is roughly 25 seats under the boeing and airbus models,
but 9-11t less basic weight.
not sure of the fuel figures, but theres got to be good economy there.
it would appear that with the 195's 118 capacity,
it is roughly 25 seats under the boeing and airbus models,
but 9-11t less basic weight.
not sure of the fuel figures, but theres got to be good economy there.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
er82, some sound comments made. But remember this, when you do find the job thats perfect for you, please tell us all. I can predict that in your search far and wide you will come to the conclusion that more often than not, you will never catch your dream in its entirety. Having worked for 5 airlines, I can see they all have their pros and cons, some you like more than others. It is just funny watching all the newbies gayly thinking that they have found their dream by moving on. Yes they maybe better off financially etc etc. But will quite often come to the conclusion that although hey are happy with their lot, good old Flybe was a bloody good outfit with some great pros as well as some not so great cons.
Its all swings and roundabouts. Good luck to those that have left, are leaving and propose to leave. Now leave the stayers to make it an airline of our choice!
Its all swings and roundabouts. Good luck to those that have left, are leaving and propose to leave. Now leave the stayers to make it an airline of our choice!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Northern Wastes
Age: 45
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your right er82, maybe some people are happy to work for flybe for ever, i'm not sure if i'm one of those people yet but i have til my bond is paid off to make up my mind.
I do feel that a lot of people leave because they feel so hard done by and also because they hear stories from friends about how they get paid millions each year and only have to work 6 days a month. Something I thought about rescently was that if i dont get to fly a 757/767/A321/A330 til i'm 30 that still gives me 25 years to be bored half to tears flying 4.5 hour sectors down to Larnaca in the middle of the night, I have to say the thought was slightly depressing.
I think that the kind of flying we do at flybe is probably the most fun you are ever going to have in an airliner for example at Monarch when the A/P goes in at 400' which is company SOP I was recently informed by one of their captains.
I dont begrudge any one who wants to progress their career but if the salary is the driving force behind your ambitions maybe a career in IT or property developing would have been more suitable. In airlines like flybe people will come and go a lot of the problems are self perpetuating (Roster Turbulence) it would be nice to see somebody posting an appreciative comment for flybe helping them get that shiney Jet job.
I do feel that a lot of people leave because they feel so hard done by and also because they hear stories from friends about how they get paid millions each year and only have to work 6 days a month. Something I thought about rescently was that if i dont get to fly a 757/767/A321/A330 til i'm 30 that still gives me 25 years to be bored half to tears flying 4.5 hour sectors down to Larnaca in the middle of the night, I have to say the thought was slightly depressing.
I think that the kind of flying we do at flybe is probably the most fun you are ever going to have in an airliner for example at Monarch when the A/P goes in at 400' which is company SOP I was recently informed by one of their captains.
I dont begrudge any one who wants to progress their career but if the salary is the driving force behind your ambitions maybe a career in IT or property developing would have been more suitable. In airlines like flybe people will come and go a lot of the problems are self perpetuating (Roster Turbulence) it would be nice to see somebody posting an appreciative comment for flybe helping them get that shiney Jet job.
Last edited by jarjam; 12th Jun 2005 at 12:16.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 361
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok. Thanks very much FlyBE. You gave me a job when no-one else was recruiting; have allowed me to do lots of hand-flying on a pretty good a/c; have allowed me to build up my hours (although at a relatively slow pace compared to fellow colleagues in the UK) - which has allowed me to get my nice new jet job; and most of all have allowed me to work with a great bunch of people over the past two years.
There are many I will miss, the odd one or two I hope never to see again, but it's pretty much been great. I'm just ready to move on.
CaptAirProx - the grass is always greener. I may never be happy - I'm a hard woman to please! (Although not in some areas!)
jarjam - I'm making the move now because I don't intend on working until retirement age!
There are many I will miss, the odd one or two I hope never to see again, but it's pretty much been great. I'm just ready to move on.
CaptAirProx - the grass is always greener. I may never be happy - I'm a hard woman to please! (Although not in some areas!)
jarjam - I'm making the move now because I don't intend on working until retirement age!